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Poverty In America

9K views 185 replies 43 participants last post by  Greaseball 
#1 ·
for (((tiredx2)))


We've all heard statements before that people who are poor, homeless, or on welfare bring it upon themselves.

Do you agree with that statement? If so, why? If not, why not?

If you believe that the poor bring it upon themselves, does that mean the government holds no responsibility in helping the issue? Some responsibility?

If you believe that the government SHOULD help, what should be done?
 
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#52 ·
I just wanted to point out that because of bureaucracy, costs for insurance and health care are very high in the US. For the majority of people, going to Universal Health Care would either leave their health care situation the same, or improve it (I am not one of those, but I still support it).

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/rele...oolhimmel.html

According to this study, bureauracy ALONE costs close to $300 billion yearly in the US for healthcare, 2/3 of which would be cut under Universal Health Care.

Question for MaryNH---

I see you think your husband & dependents deserve health care because of his job. What full time jobs do you believe are not enough value to our society that the holders of them should not have healthcare?
 
#54 ·
whew....look at what happens when you sleep in...........

This is an issue near and dear to my heart, and I will offer up my situation for scrutiny as an example because my life has been very "statistically typical" to a point.

Mary (or anyone against entitlements)....
You still didn't answer your own question....is the government responsible to help out the less fortunate? Why or why not?

The article that was linked (is it still there???) was not addressed. It's been mentioned...it simply does not use ACCURATE information. Based on that article, probably all of us here at MDC are "poor". It isn't representative of people who are in poverty. So how is that article really saying anything???

Some say "poor" people bring it on themselves with bad choices or whatnot. Do you see a bigger picture in that?

I come from a town that is working on families that are 4th generation welfare....while it's sad, it also speaks of a bigger probablem...why can't families get off welfare?

Another thing....if someone brings their poverty upon themselves, does that mean they deserve substandard living conditions? Or to not have a home at all?

On a personal note: Mary...I'm going to try to be compassionate here in the hopes you can extend the same courtesey....
How on earth is is ok for you to "glare" at anyone using their WIC vouchers? You have to agree....not all people who are on forms of assistance brought it on themselves, right? Do you think that the government should have NO support for people in that instance?

I was on WIC when I was single and preg with my daughter. I was also on just about everything else. I had to be. I previously had been working for 6 years full time. It was a goal of mine to get off all forms of assistance and I did that within about 2 years. I think thats what that stuff is there for....people who really need it at a time in their lives. Do you agree?

But you wouldn't know any of that and would have the nerve to judge and glare at me in the store for using my WIC vouchers?? Why???

And....since we call can agree poverty in America is a PROBLEM....how does that kind of attitude help the problem???
 
#56 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
Don't feed the trolls.
Troll is such a mean word, really.

But it is unfortunate that so many people have so much contempt for others, people they don't even know. This is beyond one or two mean posts, it's a disease in this culture, a disease of self-serving greed and hatred for life. So many of the rich are leeching off the back-breaking work of others and leeching off the land.
This is disgusting. The Bible, for goodness sake, has a lot to say, not much of it good, about the rich. They bring their suffering upon themselves, and others too.
There is nothing wrong with being successful in life, but if you don't recognize that no one is successful without the help of others, you are blind to reality.

Anyone who is struggling with hatred towards the needy and the poor should pick up their dusty old copy of the New Testament and read the words of Jesus. He was poor, too wasn't he?
 
#57 ·
It's one thing to have a discussion with people who genuinely believe that the government ought not to be involved in assisting the poor, and who are genuinely interested in discussing it. While I don't agree with any views I've seen to date along those lines, many are not beyond the pale of reason. I can see why one might hold such a view.

It's quite another thing, though, to get into a pissing match with someone who, based on most posts to date, appears only to be here to bait others, rile everyone up, and raise blood pressures. That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.
 
#58 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.
The best way to deal with attention-seeking misbehaviour is to ignore it.
I would rather discuss the issue at hand than give undue attention to this.
C'mon....let's move on!

By the way, another thing not yet addressed is the racism at the heart of many of these arguments against 'baby factories taking advantage of the system' etc.
I wonder what it is like to be judged that way.
I think it's a pretty ugly mentality.
 
#59 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
It's one thing to have a discussion with people who genuinely believe that the government ought not to be involved in assisting the poor, and who are genuinely interested in discussing it. While I don't agree with any views I've seen to date along those lines, many are not beyond the pale of reason. I can see why one might hold such a view.

It's quite another thing, though, to get into a pissing match with someone who, based on most posts to date, appears only to be here to bait others, rile everyone up, and raise blood pressures. That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.

*Certain* people aren't giving equal time to the other side, Marlena. A snarky, snotty reply to someone isn't going to get the best reply...it's common sense. If you don't want to get into a pissing match, fine. Post snark. It's not feeding them to ask legitimate questions and give them the opportunity to answer. It's VERY trollish to jump the gun and assume the worst and start name calling.

Please dont try to tell others what to do. And maybe it would be nice if you think someones trolling to simply ignore them and let others use their judgement.
 
#60 ·
Let me remind everyone that they are free to scroll on by a discussion that irks them. As long as a member is posting in this community they deserve to be treated with the same civility and respect that we all expect for ourselves and for the community as a whole.

To label someone a troll does not fall into civil and respectful discussion. So please refrain from using that term to refer to those whose views you disagree with and whose manner of posting bothers you. We ask in the User Agreement that you report inappropriate behavior. If rules are being violated the member will be warned and repeat offenses will result in suspension. But if you respond in a manner that is inappropriate then you too are subject to the rules and procedures of this community and will also be alerted and warned.

As always
 
#61 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Snowy Owl
The best way to deal with attention-seeking misbehaviour is to ignore it.
I would rather discuss the issue at hand than give undue attention to this.
C'mon....let's move on!

By the way, another thing not yet addressed is the racism at the heart of many of these arguments against 'baby factories taking advantage of the system' etc.
I wonder what it is like to be judged that way.
I think it's a pretty ugly mentality.
Yep!

However, I *personally* would like to get some basics out there on just fundemental human rights, then you can go into how racist AND sexist our culture and our welfare system REALLY are....

Lots of fish to fry....
 
#62 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by MaryNH
No!Do I despise men who won't work/work hard enough and allow their wives to take assistance? Yes!
My dh is in the military and he works hard and long enough and we are still at the poverty level for a family of 5. He works 50-60 hrs a week and sometimes more, and alot of his weekends that he is supposed to have off he doesn't so he does work hard enough.
 
#63 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by pilesoflaundry
My dh is in the military and he works hard and long enough and we are still at the poverty level for a family of 5. He works 50-60 hrs a week and sometimes more, and alot of his weekends that he is supposed to have off he doesn't so he does work hard enough.
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"
 
#68 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by MaryNH
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"

Okay, Mary, so who the heck is supposed to be in the military? Only single men w/out families? Should the same go for teachers? Or social workers? I think you are really clueless as to what jobs pay vs. the cost of living. And, the fact is, teachers, social workers, militaray, etc; are VITAL to our society. It's sad that we don't pay them more. And even sadder that people like you judge them for accepting assistance so that their families can have the basics in life.

Kristi
 
#70 ·
I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution. I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country. I never said we shouldn't be compassionate with one another, but the government makes a mess out of all social programs and it ends up costing the tax payers dearly.
 
#71 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sleeping queen
I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution.
DO you pay for anyones groceries or clothes or formula? Because I know there are people everywhere that need these things that don't have the money to buy them.
If you do take care of people in your area, that is wonderful, and the world needs more people like you.
Unfortunately, most people don't. In steps the governement...
 
#72 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sleeping queen
I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution. I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country. I never said we shouldn't be compassionate with one another, but the government makes a mess out of all social programs and it ends up costing the tax payers dearly.
Heres what I don't get....

With the way our countries budget is, it's about a penny (probably less) of your money a month that goes to welfare programs. It's SIGNIFICANTLY more (something like $5 per paycheck) that goes to SOMEONE ELSES social security. So...what....old people need to not take assistance too?

The "I pay for it because it's my taxes" is, true but it's such a ridiculously small ammount that goes to social services that I just don't buy it as a real valid point.

And, again...the question is....who deserves help and why? And how are they to get it?
 
#73 ·
Quote:
First, though, I would like to define the "poor" as those under the federal poverty level. That would be appx $15K (family of 3), $18K (family of 4) and $21K (family of 5).
The FPL does not take rent into consideration. In areas where a one-bedroom apartment goes for $1500, minimum wage is still the same.

I don't think the poor, homeless, etc. deserve it or bring it on themselves. I think it is the government's responsibility to help those who need help and not blame them for having kids too young, too many kids, not enough education, etc. If they think lack of education is the problem, why not pay for more education? Why are single mothers on welfare not allowed to go to college? Wouldn't that be more effective at lifting them out of poverty than lining them up with a minimum wage job?

I think childbearing should be celebrated, even if those kids are being born to single teenage low income women. Please don't punish a child because you don't agree with the actions of the mother. And what about the "father"?! If he paid child support more often, the mother might not even need welfare to begin with. Women don't get pregnant by themselves, you know!

Marriage is not the answer. I am poor and married. So are many other people. You think welfare payments are never made to married couples? That's not the case. Marriage incentives encourage staying in abusive relationships. Sometimes a mother really is better off raising her kids by herself. Marriage incentives imply that somewhere there are a bunch of rich men wanting to marry poor mothers. I don't know of any.

I have a right to have as many children as I want. If I can't afford to meet my needs, you bet I will ask for help. I am well within my rights to do so. I am also within my rights to continue my education. I will not go get a meaningless, dead end minimum wage job that will sink us deeper into poverty in the long run. My children and I contribute to our community by our very existence alone. I don't have to justify asking for help that I am entitled to.

I suppose many people will say we did this to ourselves. I don't care; it doesn't change what we are entitled to. Yes, I chose to have two children when neither of us have jobs. (One child was even planned!) Dh chose to go to school to get a teaching license. I choose to stay in college instead of working. We both choose to stay home with our children instead of putting them in daycare so we can work. I buy candy with food stamps. I also buy super-expensive organic produce. I don't plan on saving for my kids' college even when we do find work, because I want them to realize they are entitled to government funding of their education. Although we have an HMO that will pay for a hospital birth, I choose to go on Medicaid so I can have the home birth that I want. I choose to look into private schools, and will explore every financial assistance program those schools offer. My kids have the right to go to whatever school they want, whether we can pay or not. I choose to turn the heat way up in the winter and leave it on when we're gone all day, and to have energy assistance pay for it all. But I know I am entitled to as much help as I need, because I am doing the most important job in the world. Children benefit the entire society, not just the homes in which they live. Society benefits when all children are supported.

Oh yeah, and I'm not getting sterilized!:LOL
 
#74 ·
If you have the right to have as many children as you want then do it but by golly pay for it yourself and don't expect the government to pay for your decisions. I think that is the beef that most of us agianst social services have. The attitude I can do what I want , but help me pay for it. I'll be paying on my twins probably the next 5 years and according to the income guidelines that was given to me at the hospital we could of received quite a bit of free help, but I wanted these kids and I'll pay for them. I don't expect someone else to pay for my choices.
 
#75 ·
I, on the other hand, do expect help. For one thing, I am entitled and there isn't much one can do about that. Not even the republicans have managed to completely eliminate social services. Also, my choices will eventually benefit the society that is now paying for them, so in the long run everyone wins. I hate to pull out that old cliche but "children are the future!" It really is true. Educated people also benefit society, and not only because they pay more taxes. As long as dh and I are permitted to complete our degrees, we will be able to be those middle-income people that no one resents. Then we really will have to pay for everything ourselves, but at least we'll be able to. Right now all we buy for dd is clothing and we pay all our own rent.

That's another thing we do that we "shouldn't be allowed to do" - we deliberately rent more space than we absolutely need just so we can be comfortable. I've decided to live as though I deserve everything a middle-income person does, and as long as I ask, I receive! I don't treat myself as some "poor person" who has to do everything the way other people think she should and who doesn't have the right to be reproducing and should only be buying cheap canned food.

Middle-income people also want their choices paid for by others, like with child tax deductions, tax breaks for corporations, school vouchers and better access to public safety. Most middle income families send their kids to public schools, which means other people have to pay for the choice they have made. Yet it's only the "poor people" we resent for it.
 
#76 ·
Still waiting for a response to the last question i asked you SQ, but here is another one....

Quote:
Originally posted by sleeping queen
I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country.
Are you against social security and medicare? because those too are entitlement programs....

 
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