Poverty In America - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowy Owl
The best way to deal with attention-seeking misbehaviour is to ignore it.
I would rather discuss the issue at hand than give undue attention to this.
C'mon....let's move on!

By the way, another thing not yet addressed is the racism at the heart of many of these arguments against 'baby factories taking advantage of the system' etc.
I wonder what it is like to be judged that way.
I think it's a pretty ugly mentality.
Yep!

However, I *personally* would like to get some basics out there on just fundemental human rights, then you can go into how racist AND sexist our culture and our welfare system REALLY are....


Lots of fish to fry....
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#62 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally posted by MaryNH
No!Do I despise men who won't work/work hard enough and allow their wives to take assistance? Yes!
My dh is in the military and he works hard and long enough and we are still at the poverty level for a family of 5. He works 50-60 hrs a week and sometimes more, and alot of his weekends that he is supposed to have off he doesn't so he does work hard enough.
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#63 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by pilesoflaundry
My dh is in the military and he works hard and long enough and we are still at the poverty level for a family of 5. He works 50-60 hrs a week and sometimes more, and alot of his weekends that he is supposed to have off he doesn't so he does work hard enough.
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"
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#64 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by MaryNH
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"
Come on Mary...thats an unfair statement and it doesn't address any issues raised.
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#65 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:01 PM
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Gotcha, cap'n!
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#66 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:01 PM
 
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When someone who just joined comes into activism and starts a debate, you KNOW they are here for trouble.
This is the last forum I would want to start off in- and to jump into a thread and start a debate. Do your research, mamas, trouble can't be only here.
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#67 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by Cynthia Mosher If rules are being violated the member will be warned and repeat offenses will result in suspension.
Done.

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#68 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaryNH
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"

Okay, Mary, so who the heck is supposed to be in the military? Only single men w/out families? Should the same go for teachers? Or social workers? I think you are really clueless as to what jobs pay vs. the cost of living. And, the fact is, teachers, social workers, militaray, etc; are VITAL to our society. It's sad that we don't pay them more. And even sadder that people like you judge them for accepting assistance so that their families can have the basics in life.



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#69 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:12 PM
 
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Originally posted by Cynthia Mosher
Done.
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#70 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:16 PM
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I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution. I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country. I never said we shouldn't be compassionate with one another, but the government makes a mess out of all social programs and it ends up costing the tax payers dearly.
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#71 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally posted by sleeping queen
I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution.
DO you pay for anyones groceries or clothes or formula? Because I know there are people everywhere that need these things that don't have the money to buy them.
If you do take care of people in your area, that is wonderful, and the world needs more people like you.
Unfortunately, most people don't. In steps the governement...
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#72 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by sleeping queen
I'd be a lot happier buying groceries or clothes or formula for someone in need vs the government placing programs in place which are basically income redistribution. I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country. I never said we shouldn't be compassionate with one another, but the government makes a mess out of all social programs and it ends up costing the tax payers dearly.
Heres what I don't get....

With the way our countries budget is, it's about a penny (probably less) of your money a month that goes to welfare programs. It's SIGNIFICANTLY more (something like $5 per paycheck) that goes to SOMEONE ELSES social security. So...what....old people need to not take assistance too?

The "I pay for it because it's my taxes" is, true but it's such a ridiculously small ammount that goes to social services that I just don't buy it as a real valid point.

And, again...the question is....who deserves help and why? And how are they to get it?
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#73 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:23 PM
 
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First, though, I would like to define the "poor" as those under the federal poverty level. That would be appx $15K (family of 3), $18K (family of 4) and $21K (family of 5).
The FPL does not take rent into consideration. In areas where a one-bedroom apartment goes for $1500, minimum wage is still the same.

I don't think the poor, homeless, etc. deserve it or bring it on themselves. I think it is the government's responsibility to help those who need help and not blame them for having kids too young, too many kids, not enough education, etc. If they think lack of education is the problem, why not pay for more education? Why are single mothers on welfare not allowed to go to college? Wouldn't that be more effective at lifting them out of poverty than lining them up with a minimum wage job?

I think childbearing should be celebrated, even if those kids are being born to single teenage low income women. Please don't punish a child because you don't agree with the actions of the mother. And what about the "father"?! If he paid child support more often, the mother might not even need welfare to begin with. Women don't get pregnant by themselves, you know!

Marriage is not the answer. I am poor and married. So are many other people. You think welfare payments are never made to married couples? That's not the case. Marriage incentives encourage staying in abusive relationships. Sometimes a mother really is better off raising her kids by herself. Marriage incentives imply that somewhere there are a bunch of rich men wanting to marry poor mothers. I don't know of any.

I have a right to have as many children as I want. If I can't afford to meet my needs, you bet I will ask for help. I am well within my rights to do so. I am also within my rights to continue my education. I will not go get a meaningless, dead end minimum wage job that will sink us deeper into poverty in the long run. My children and I contribute to our community by our very existence alone. I don't have to justify asking for help that I am entitled to.

I suppose many people will say we did this to ourselves. I don't care; it doesn't change what we are entitled to. Yes, I chose to have two children when neither of us have jobs. (One child was even planned!) Dh chose to go to school to get a teaching license. I choose to stay in college instead of working. We both choose to stay home with our children instead of putting them in daycare so we can work. I buy candy with food stamps. I also buy super-expensive organic produce. I don't plan on saving for my kids' college even when we do find work, because I want them to realize they are entitled to government funding of their education. Although we have an HMO that will pay for a hospital birth, I choose to go on Medicaid so I can have the home birth that I want. I choose to look into private schools, and will explore every financial assistance program those schools offer. My kids have the right to go to whatever school they want, whether we can pay or not. I choose to turn the heat way up in the winter and leave it on when we're gone all day, and to have energy assistance pay for it all. But I know I am entitled to as much help as I need, because I am doing the most important job in the world. Children benefit the entire society, not just the homes in which they live. Society benefits when all children are supported.

Oh yeah, and I'm not getting sterilized!:LOL
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#74 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 04:45 PM
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If you have the right to have as many children as you want then do it but by golly pay for it yourself and don't expect the government to pay for your decisions. I think that is the beef that most of us agianst social services have. The attitude I can do what I want , but help me pay for it. I'll be paying on my twins probably the next 5 years and according to the income guidelines that was given to me at the hospital we could of received quite a bit of free help, but I wanted these kids and I'll pay for them. I don't expect someone else to pay for my choices.
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#75 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:05 PM
 
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I, on the other hand, do expect help. For one thing, I am entitled and there isn't much one can do about that. Not even the republicans have managed to completely eliminate social services. Also, my choices will eventually benefit the society that is now paying for them, so in the long run everyone wins. I hate to pull out that old cliche but "children are the future!" It really is true. Educated people also benefit society, and not only because they pay more taxes. As long as dh and I are permitted to complete our degrees, we will be able to be those middle-income people that no one resents. Then we really will have to pay for everything ourselves, but at least we'll be able to. Right now all we buy for dd is clothing and we pay all our own rent.

That's another thing we do that we "shouldn't be allowed to do" - we deliberately rent more space than we absolutely need just so we can be comfortable. I've decided to live as though I deserve everything a middle-income person does, and as long as I ask, I receive! I don't treat myself as some "poor person" who has to do everything the way other people think she should and who doesn't have the right to be reproducing and should only be buying cheap canned food.

Middle-income people also want their choices paid for by others, like with child tax deductions, tax breaks for corporations, school vouchers and better access to public safety. Most middle income families send their kids to public schools, which means other people have to pay for the choice they have made. Yet it's only the "poor people" we resent for it.
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Still waiting for a response to the last question i asked you SQ, but here is another one....


Quote:
Originally posted by sleeping queen
I really hate this entitlement menality that is developing in our country.
Are you against social security and medicare? because those too are entitlement programs....



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#77 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:07 PM
 
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Middle-income people also want their choices paid for by others, like with child tax deductions, tax breaks for corporations, school vouchers and better access to public safety. Most middle income families send their kids to public schools, which means other people have to pay for the choice they have made. Yet it's only the "poor people" we resent for it.
Well put!!!

If it were really about money, rather than moral outrage at "those" people, there would be OUTRAGE towards companies that make billions and pay their CEOs more than they pay in taxes while using the fruits of our tax system.

As it is, we are very cleverly goaded into fighting each other, so we don't realize who is really taking our money--- corporate bigwigs!

 

 

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#78 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:16 PM
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I don't know if our culture is going to be anybetter if we're raising children with the attitude of entitlement, we'll just have more of the same with fewer paying for it.

Companies make money because the consumer purchases the product, if the company want to pay their ceo a ton that is their business. I couldn't run a huge company, could you?
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#79 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:18 PM
 
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Just want to say, Greasball, I love ya!!!!

Ummmmmm......just don't count too much on that teacher salary, lol!


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Companies make money because the consumer purchases the product, if the company want to pay their ceo a ton that is their business. I couldn't run a huge company, could you?
I am not debating the right of a company to pay their CEO a huge amt of money. And yes, I think I could run many companies into the ground at least as well as their CEOs are :LOL My point remains: it IS our business that they do not pay an adequate amount taxes. Just because they have the money to set up off shore accounts to hide their money does NOT mean they should not pay the taxes owed. That is welfare I do not support. WHY should and, and furthermore, why do *you*?

 

 

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#81 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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Sort of OT, but do you know that foster children (under age 5) are ENTITLED to WIC? I bring this up for those of you who glare at WIC users. ALL foster children can get WIC, and most foster parents will utilize it, especially for babies as WIC covers formula. So when you are glaring at those WIC users, stop and think that maybe, just maybe, the person using them is a foster parent, who has opened their home to children, and is using those vouchers so that she can provide for them.

We are in the process of being licensed to be foster parents. And you can bet your butt that I'll be using WIC vouchers for formula for the babies I bring into my home.


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#82 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:44 PM
 
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Are you against social security and medicare? because those too are entitlement programs....
Yeah, really! "I'm old! Give me money!"

I do want to raise my children to believe in entitlement. I want them to know they deserve to have their basic needs met, and that if they can't meet them on their own, they have every right to ask someone else to do so. I see nothing wrong with kids growing up knowing they have a basic human right to health care, education, etc. It's not like kids are being raised to believe taxpayers owe them a Playstation.

This is what I mean when I say "It takes a whole village to raise a child." (Because I know there are a lot of interpretations of that proverb...) I care about anyone's child, and will do what I can to help them, no matter who their mother is or if their parents are married or whatever. I resist the idea that I should only care about my own kids and to Hell with everyone else's.
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#83 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by sleeping queen
I don't know if our culture is going to be anybetter if we're raising children with the attitude of entitlement, we'll just have more of the same with fewer paying for it.

Companies make money because the consumer purchases the product, if the company want to pay their ceo a ton that is their business. I couldn't run a huge company, could you?
It has been proven that children grow up to be more productive adults in environments where they have their basic needs met and feel secure. It may sound all touchy feely but its true and can't continue to be ignored.

Greaseballs kids will be taken care of. Therefore they are more likely to grow into respectable, contributing members of society, especially if they see that society as CARING about them.

I've worked in big companies...hell yes I could run one.
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I can't imagine glaring at someone trying to feed their children (foster, biological, adopted, whatever) healthy food. Just not in me. I'm fine with everyone getting WIC if that means that kids actually get fed healthy food! Please, take my tax dollars for *that*!

 

 

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#85 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by MaryNH
When you live beyond your means and have to rely on the support of the American people, you have to deal with such attitudes... So while I can't "do anythnig" about it, I can glare at you when you whip your WIC vouchers out of your pocket at the grocery store...I can do my part.
Finally, did you ever think about getting off the computer and finding a job? Did you ever consider doing in home daycare? Seriously. You can make decent money and be a sahm.
this is offensive on so many levels... do you really think glaring at a frazzled mom as she signs her WIC voucher is gonna do anything other than make her feel badly? i have been glared at frequently as i used my WIC or food stamps~ (this was years ago...) & let me tell you, it didn't make me feel bad about our situation, it only made me pity the person who was small minded enough to stereotype me without knowing one thing about me.

as for getting a job~ i have one. it is called raising my son to be the best person he can be. he has never been left with a babysitter so that i could make a few bucks. (of course i would then have to PAY the sitter, so there would go my paycheck anyway. my reason for being on this earth is to be amom; i have known that from the time i was little. just because we are not fortunate enough to make thousands of dollars hand over fist, i am still entitled to the privilege of raising my son. and HE is entitled to food clothing & shelter.

as for the assumption that ANYONE who REALLY works would not need public assistance, i will tell you about my FIL. he was on his own as a child, his parents didn't care for him & he dropped out of school in 8th grade. his father gave him money each week & he would buy alcohol & camp by the river. he met my MIL who had 2 kids & had left her abusive husband, they went on to have 3 more children. my MIL was a SAHM & my FIL worked his a$$ off from 4am to after dark, working in orchards, fixing engines, mowing lawns,etc. whatever he could do to make some money. & he was on public assistance then & he still is not at almost 65 years of age. & he still works like a dog from sunup to sundown.

some might look on him with pity or disgust, but i see him as a success~ a man who could have been a lifelong alcoholic but instead took steps to better himself & his family.

how dare you judge him or me or anyone? i hope & pray you never have to be in the situation. if you had a choice between food stamps & seeing your child go to bed hungry, i think i know what you would do~ & i hope no one in the checkout line would glare at you.
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#86 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:51 PM
 
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This is what I mean when I say "It takes a whole village to raise a child." (Because I know there are a lot of interpretations of that proverb...) I care about anyone's child, and will do what I can to help them, no matter who their mother is or if their parents are married or whatever. I resist the idea that I should only care about my own kids and to Hell with everyone else's.
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ooooh, I know, let's go to MARS.


talk about entitlement and priorities.


let them eat cake.



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#88 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:55 PM
 
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I dont think people strive to be poor or homeless. I think some of it is poor planning, no savings, they lose their job, next they lose their house.

I think with some it is a cycle, their parents were poor, their grandparents were poor and thats all they "know". Maybe something happened, and they didn't get the education they wished they would have and end up with a low paying job. Just my thoughts
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#89 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 05:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaryNH
Did someone put a gun to your dh's head and say."Join the military or else?"
As someone already stated that wasn't fair but I will leave that at that.

What I will say is this, my dh was working hard at a company, he worked 40 hrs a week and sometimes overtime to keep us off social programs, we were doing okay. We had a son and I was pregnant with my second child, when he very unexpectidly lost his job, if he didn't join the military we would be one of those "baby makers" on welfare you complain about. All I said was some people who DO work long and hard hours are still at the poverty level. Not there fault, it's the fault of the job not paying enough.
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#90 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 06:12 PM
 
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My mother was one of those poor divorced mothers on welfare. When I was 3, I would spend all day in daycare while she worked for minimum wage. It was the kind of place that was run out of someone's home, and where the kids just stay in cribs all day with bottles. It was the only kind the state would pay for.

Then after she got a better job she decided no more public assistance in any form because she was tired of the humiliation and mean comments about how we shouldn't have been born. I can understand her reasoning, but it hurt us even more - we never had enough food, and I never saw a dentist. That's where a good portion of my student loan money goes - dental work that I should have had as a child. We never saw a doctor unless we were in serious pain. I think she should have just taken the food stamps and Medicaid. We would have been better off.

She says she regrets having us grow up in daycare. If she could do it over again, she says she'd stay on welfare and stay home with us. She still lives in poverty, since she wasn't able to finish her education. She was a SAHM when she was married and no one wants to hire someone who has "no experience."

I think my own situation will turn out better, and part of that is because I'm willing to accept help. Some people say "get some pride; don't expect a handout" but it's precisely because of my pride that I know I deserve this help. I know I deserve better than a dead end job that barely pays the daycare bill. And I know that my kids aren't necessarily going to be poor as adults because we will have enough money to help them meet their goals. I want them to follow my example and never think that they have to go without something they need because other people don't think they're worthy enough.

We ALL use services that are tax-funded. If you send your kids to public school, call the police or fire department, or accept social security payments for a disabled child, you are doing your part to spend MY TAX DOLLARS! (Believe it or not, we do send actual money to the IRS each year!)
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