Strict Abortion Measures Enacted in Oklahoma - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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huh? My husband has had bypass surgery you can bet we knew exactly what they were going to do and what recovery should be expected before he consented. That is a part of full informed consent.
You don't know all of the ugly stuff that happens. Look, I am part of giving consent for these procedures, I'm there explaining to families things and we gloss over the ugly side of things. We don't talk about never recovering from post pump delirium or when they go septic we don't give you the minutia of details about what happens to the body.

It's a need to know thing only.

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#32 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:19 PM
 
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I can tell you that I'm the person in the hospital reading not only my own chart when I was admitted but also my husbands the numerous times he has been in hospital.

We both have been in hospitals where it it was very likely we could die. I'm all for full and complete informed consent ironically I've found my Drs to be the ones that give the fullest informed consent, whereas the nurses tend to try and gloss it over unless directly asked. Which is why I also get my info from the surgeons themselves, and the anesthesiologists.

Personally I can't stand the patronizing attitude some HCP have that they have to protect us for our own good from the realities of life. It's my life on the line, not the Drs, you bet your you know what I expect full and complete disclosure.
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#33 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Which is why I said unless they ask? You sound a little miffed or something?

In any case, every doctor I have ever worked with, in every instance of informed consent, has not gone over every detail, unless asked. I have worked in five hospitals in four states and even more units, so it isn't that I am only exposed to one cultural climate. It may sound like informed consent, and it IS, in that you know what you need to know about the basic risks and benefits, the basic outline of what the surgery entails and what you can expect from recovery, but details? How many mm we resects or how terrible it is to get someone on and off the pump isn't explored in detail. What's the point, other than for it to be a scare tactic.

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#34 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:48 PM
 
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You don't know all of the ugly stuff that happens. Look, I am part of giving consent for these procedures, I'm there explaining to families things and we gloss over the ugly side of things. We don't talk about never recovering from post pump delirium or when they go septic we don't give you the minutia of details about what happens to the body.

It's a need to know thing only.
I'm following this thread, and I'm curious at the double standard for withholding information. Don't get me wrong-- I think withholding information for the purpose of manipulating someone into not having an abortion is wrong. But I find withholding information for the purpose of manipulating someone into having another procedure equally wrong.

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#35 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm following this thread, and I'm curious at the double standard for withholding information. Don't get me wrong-- I think withholding information for the purpose of manipulating someone into not having an abortion is wrong. But I find withholding information for the purpose of manipulating someone into having another procedure equally wrong.
The time it would take to fully explain most medical procedures would be very expensive. Nothing is left out per se, but unnecessary detail isn't covered.

And we would never over explain something by force, which is what this law proposes.

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#36 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 12:46 AM
 
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We have no idea what the US techs believe...they are just doing the US...it's not like they are hiring pro-life techs and having a pep talk beforehand telling them how to describe the baby is such a way as to make the woman feel so guilty that she cannot bare to abort. In fact do they even know why the woman is coming in for the US? I'm asking because I don't know, perhaps they are just told "6 week patient coming in, give a routine early US".

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#37 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 12:58 AM
 
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Which is why I said unless they ask? You sound a little miffed or something?

In any case, every doctor I have ever worked with, in every instance of informed consent, has not gone over every detail, unless asked. I have worked in five hospitals in four states and even more units, so it isn't that I am only exposed to one cultural climate. It may sound like informed consent, and it IS, in that you know what you need to know about the basic risks and benefits, the basic outline of what the surgery entails and what you can expect from recovery, but details? How many mm we resects or how terrible it is to get someone on and off the pump isn't explored in detail. What's the point, other than for it to be a scare tactic.
Thank you geek for directly pointing out the difference between what is usually informed consent (a discussion between a patient and doctor re procedure & risks) and what this first law proposes which may be overly detailed information being touted as IC but is really a scare tactic.

The best analogy I can think of is cancer, some patients want to know every detail, every risk, every side effect. Others maybe 50/50, and others still a general idea with the basics of informed consent covered to make sure they are "making" an informed decision. Informed consent is for many procedures a really delicate matter between patients and physicians.

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#38 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 04:26 AM
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I am going to step in here and remind all to please phrase your replies with respect and to follow the UA. This is a heated topic, which leads to other heated topics.

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#39 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 11:55 AM
 
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We don't go into details about surgeries or most other major medical procedures because, frankly, I think it would scare people off. Shoudl we do that to ensure that people completely understand what happens pre intra and post op during a CABG? Believe me, you don't wanna know. Or, if you do, you'll ask.
I think there is a distinct difference between an abortion and a CABG. The reason a woman would change her mind about an abortion from viewing an u/s is because she would find herself morally opposed to it, not because she'd be scared of the operation itself.

Maybe I'm taking a more holistic approach to medical decision making than some people think is right or necessary, but I think that a woman should be given all the information needed to make a decision that not only affects her body but also her conscience. I know I would want to be informed of the moral considerations of any medical procedure, not just this one, so that I could make a decision that is in line with my conscience. I don't see this as a scare tactic, quite the opposite. It is empowering the woman to make the right moral decision for herself.

A woman might be perfectly okay with having an abortion at 6 weeks based on what she sees on the u/s but not be okay with it at 12 weeks. This is a decision only the woman can make, but she needs full disclosure to make that choice.
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#40 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think there is a distinct difference between an abortion and a CABG. The reason a woman would change her mind about an abortion from viewing an u/s is because she would find herself morally opposed to it, not because she'd be scared of the operation itself.

Maybe I'm taking a more holistic approach to medical decision making than some people think is right or necessary, but I think that a woman should be given all the information needed to make a decision that not only affects her body but also her conscience. I know I would want to be informed of the moral considerations of any medical procedure, not just this one, so that I could make a decision that is in line with my conscience. I don't see this as a scare tactic, quite the opposite. It is empowering the woman to make the right moral decision for herself.

A woman might be perfectly okay with having an abortion at 6 weeks based on what she sees on the u/s but not be okay with it at 12 weeks. This is a decision only the woman can make, but she needs full disclosure to make that choice.


Let me know if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that it would be ok to force someone against their will to hear information they have decided they don't want or need.

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#41 of 56 Old 04-29-2010, 08:09 PM
 
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Drs should always be required to give patients full disclosure as to their condition and health status. So, I do have big problems with the second law shielding Drs that withhold info. I don't have problems with the first one though. I see the first law as upholding full disclosure.

And I won't say anymore so that I stay within the UA.
I agree with this!

My issue with the first measure is that I don't think it's designed to give all information, I think it's to emotionally bully women who want abortions.

I find that these two measures conflict with each other. So, you have to listen to a detailed description...unless the doctor doesn't want to pass information on to you.
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#42 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 09:55 AM
 
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Let me know if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that it would be ok to force someone against their will to hear information they have decided they don't want or need.
I've been thinking a lot about this, and I do think that it is okay. I think there is some information that a person should know before any procedure whether they want to know it or not. I don't think it is coercive; it is giving all the medical facts to the woman so that she can make her decision fully informed. In the case of abortion, this also means the woman must make a moral decision, so she must be fully aware of the moral decision she's making. I don't think it is fair to the woman to have a very important aspect of her (her conscience) ignored when giving the information to decide to have an abortion or not.

Please, don't get me wrong here. I am and have always been in favor of keeping abortion legal. I've been reluctant to post this because it is personal, but I have had a very early elective abortion myself, so I am well aware of what I'm talking about. I just think it does a disservice to women to not give her all the information she needs to make sure she is not doing something against her conscience that she will later regret.
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#43 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I do not think it's ok to force someone to "learn" about the measurements of a fetus that is about to be destroyed. I think it's highly immoral, unethical and dictatorial.

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#44 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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i agree with this!

My issue with the first measure is that i don't think it's designed to give all information, i think it's to emotionally bully women who want abortions.

I find that these two measures conflict with each other. So, you have to listen to a detailed description...unless the doctor doesn't want to pass information on to you.
ita

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#45 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 10:55 AM
 
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I respectfully disagree, Purple Sage. I think if a patient has indicated that he or she doesn't want to know the intimate details of a surgery or procedure, then medical staff should be able to non-disclose beyond basic information. to me, limiting information on request about the details shows respect for the patient's needs. I do consider abortion to be a medical procedure, so that may affect my pov of course. I just think there is a big difference between saying to a client 'Yep, there's the uterus, there is the embryo-fetus, & i estimate that the pregnancy is around X weeks in duration' as opposed to 'look at the little arms, you can almost see the fingers forming & wow, look at that heartbeat!'. The first statement is clinical, the second statement is emotional. In my opinion, patients deserve clear clinical information. The emotional stuff they are perfectly capable of working out according to their own personal needs when it comes to elective procedures. They don't need someone to tell them what they should feel or see.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be. And I am somewhat confused by the distinctions between the two OK laws. I guess I just don't like to see any patient coerced, emotionally or otherwise, into a decision that they don't agree with.

Informed consent is very tricky territory.

With respect to all.....

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#46 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:00 AM
 
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I respectfully disagree, Purple Sage. I think if a patient has indicated that he or she doesn't want to know the intimate details of a surgery or procedure, then medical staff should be able to non-disclose beyond basic information. to me, limiting information on request about the details shows respect for the patient's needs. I do consider abortion to be a medical procedure, so that may affect my pov of course. I just think there is a big difference between saying to a client 'Yep, there's the uterus, there is the embryo-fetus, & i estimate that the pregnancy is around X weeks in duration' as opposed to 'look at the little arms, you can almost see the fingers forming & wow, look at that heartbeat!'. The first statement is clinical, the second statement is emotional. In my opinion, patients deserve clear clinical information. The emotional stuff they are perfectly capable of working out according to their own personal needs when it comes to elective procedures. They don't need someone to tell them what they should feel or see.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean it to be. And I am somewhat confused by the distinctions between the two OK laws. I guess I just don't like to see any patient coerced, emotionally or otherwise, into a decision that they don't agree with.

Informed consent is very tricky territory.

With respect to all.....
I understand where you're coming from, but I also respectfully disagree. The part I bolded simply would not happen. The description would be worded as unemotionally and medically sterile as possible at any abortion clinic. I think that going to this extreme is making a false emotional claim about this law - it is unrealistic and fear-mongering.
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#47 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:12 AM
 
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I don't know, purple sage, I haven't read the wording of the law to be honest. I just can't see where there would be safeguards against moral opinion being used as medical opinion in this situation. especially considering abortion history in the US, and in this particular case, Oklahoma.

I don't want to fear-monger, but the history of legal abortion in the US is a bit... of a concern (searching for a diplomatic word).

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#48 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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I think it's important to remember that the medical description and u/s would be taking place at the place where the abortion is to be performed, not at a place where people are actively trying to keep women from getting abortions. I don't know about Oklahoma, but I've been to an abortion clinic in Texas (not your most liberal state!) and the people working there were all 100% pro-choice. The safeguards for employees not injecting their moral stance into the discussion would be provided by the medical establishment performing the abortion. I have no doubt that the rules would be very clear and very strict that employees not say anything that is not of the utmost medically sterile jargon and only as much as the law requires. I would imagine the wording to be such as "upper extremities measure 2mm, lower extremities measure...."
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#49 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:49 AM
 
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fair enough. But what if a woman goes to a pregnancy clinic or a doctor's surgery, somewhat uncertain about her decision. If abortion service providers are already providing clinical information, why is there the need to codify it in law? I just don't see the restriction to keep medical-patient dialogue to a clinical level in the current proposal.

Again, I haven't read the current legislation in OK. But I can just see so many loopholes where personal can cross the professional line here.

I grew up in the US & lived there until I was 26, if that gives me any currency in this discussion. So yeah, I do know that Texas is not the most liberal state, & I hear where you are coming from. Just wondering why these disclosure laws are being enacted....

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#50 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:53 AM
 
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I was going to respond with the debate about informed consent and etc. but
I tried to look up the law in OK - still with no success, and instead found an article by ABC news which discusses some of the other laws in OK regarding abortions mainly:

From the article:
Quote:
Under Oklahoma law, they must be read a typewritten script over the phone 24 hours prior to the procedure, one that describes complications and risks and the gestational age
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/okla-ab...0507849&page=1

So getting back to this law - it might be very repetative of what OK has already in place. Apparently they also have women filled out an extensive & very personnal questionnaire prior the procedure. Finally the legislation attempted to pass a law to post information regarding women who have undergone abortions on a public website - luckily this got struck down.

I am in a bit of shock (again can't confirm per law) but the article references the US and description must occur within 1 hour prior to undergoing to procedure. I'm sorry but with respect to persons, and their autonomy to make a decision as considered in realm of bioethics this law does not uphold any of that. In my mind this is where the state and legislative bodies are choosing to ignore the fact this is a legal medical procedure and making it extensively difficult for someone to choose.

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#51 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 11:55 AM
 
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On a completely unrelated note - I want say thank you to everyone as this topic however timely has cemented in my mind what I will be writing on for my final paper for my law & bioethics class for my master's program

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#52 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 12:11 PM
 
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fair enough. But what if a woman goes to a pregnancy clinic or a doctor's surgery, somewhat uncertain about her decision. If abortion service providers are already providing clinical information, why is there the need to codify it in law? I just don't see the restriction to keep medical-patient dialogue to a clinical level in the current proposal.

Again, I haven't read the current legislation in OK. But I can just see so many loopholes where personal can cross the professional line here.

I grew up in the US & lived there until I was 26, if that gives me any currency in this discussion. So yeah, I do know that Texas is not the most liberal state, & I hear where you are coming from. Just wondering why these disclosure laws are being enacted....
I think this is entirely the point - if a woman goes into the clinic somewhat uncertain and hearing a clinical description and seeing an u/s causes her to decide it is against her conscience to undergo the procedure, then it was most definitely in her best interest to not have the abortion. In my opinion, a woman's conscience is as much a part of her as her uterus.

I also have full confidence that abortion providers will make certain that the description is as clinical and unemotional as possible.
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#53 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 01:45 PM
 
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I wonder why they couldn't just as the patient if she wants to hear a detailed description and then respect her decision? She is an adult (or in the case of a teenager, able to give consent)--isn't that just basic respect for other people? Seems extremely paternalistic particularly when this isn't information that impacts the medical risk of the procedure (isn't that really the purpose of informed consent?).

ETA: On the second part of the law, I wonder if doctors would decide to lie at first then disclose later in the pregnancy when it's too late to abort? Maybe they would feel that covers them on the issues of giving parents time to prepare? I'm utterly disgusted either way.

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#54 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 03:51 PM
 
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In the case of abortion, this also means the woman must make a moral decision, so she must be fully aware of the moral decision she's making. I don't think it is fair to the woman to have a very important aspect of her (her conscience) ignored when giving the information to decide to have an abortion or not.
What if the woman does not view abortion as a moral decision? Does she still need to be informed in the manner prescribed, then?

 

 

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#55 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 04:07 PM
 
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What if the woman does not view abortion as a moral decision? Does she still need to be informed in the manner prescribed, then?
I don't mean this to sound flip, but why would she have a problem with hearing a clinical description and viewing an u/s if the issue is not a moral one to her? It would be just one more step in the process of consent and prep for the procedure, just like any of the others.
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#56 of 56 Old 04-30-2010, 04:15 PM
 
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I don't mean this to sound flip, but why would she have a problem with hearing a clinical description and viewing an u/s if the issue is not a moral one to her? It would be just one more step in the process of consent and prep for the procedure, just like any of the others.
For me - this additional review and description is on top of the already discussed informed consent process, along with a 24 hour prior telephone call describing risks and the gestational age of the fetus. Plus double checks by the staff & doctors to ensure she's still in agreement with her decision.

I'm struggling with this graphic, though it may be clinical description being required for 1 type of medical procedure, but then the bar is lowered for others.

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