Strict Abortion Measures Enacted in Oklahoma - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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HOUSTON — The Oklahoma Legislature voted Tuesday to override the governor’s vetoes of two abortion measures, one of which requires women to undergo an ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus before getting an abortion.

Though other states have passed similar measures requiring women to have ultrasounds, Oklahoma’s law goes further, mandating that a doctor or technician set up the monitor so the woman can see it and describe the heart, limbs and organs of the fetus. No exceptions are made for rape and incest victims.

A second measure passed into law on Tuesday prevents women who have had a disabled baby from suing a doctor for withholding information about birth defects while the child was in the womb.

(see link for the rest of the article)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/us/28abortion.html

I can not adequately describe my anger about both measures, but especially the measure that allows doctors to LIE to their patients in order to dupe them into having a baby they would not otherwise have.

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#2 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 09:40 AM
 
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Yeah, the first ones bad enough, but the second? Its now OK for doctors to *LIE* to their patients??? As if we don't have enough issues with doctors and trust already....
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#3 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:42 AM
 
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#4 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:47 AM
 
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I can't even think coherent words in response to this ...

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#5 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:49 AM
 
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Throwing this out here.

Okay, what if the Doctor doesn't tell the woman the baby has a problem. A problem that requires a medical team in place as soon as the baby is born.

So the baby is born with the problem and then dies because the medical team is not in place. Can the Doctor be sued?

What about the emotional stress that is caused by the Doctor not informing the Mother. The Mother is unable to prepare herself mentally and emotionally and get support in place. Can she sue the Doctor for emotional anquish or something like that?

As a Mom of a child with special needs, I WOULD WANT TO KNOW! Not to have an abortion (though I believe in choice), but to prepare myself and my family. Educate myself, get Doctors in place!

I am so angry I am going to spit nails.

Just asking...

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#6 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:54 AM
 
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Katwrangler - I think you've hit the issue on the head, which is that politicians are dictating how doctors could handle their patients. I think any doctor would have to have it in teh notes about the problem with something that said - PATIENT DOES NOT KNOW!, but it would be very weird not to have the medical team in place during the delivery. Unless the mom up & decided to hb or had a very quick labor and did it unassisted.


I'm totally confused how this piece of legislation is not going to get overturned when the right case (which will probably be the first) comes up, as I'm pretty sure this flies in the face of the 14th amendment consitutionally. I see this one quickly moving through the federal courts...

Re: suit for emotional anguish/damage... I think the despite the law the first route would be malpractice - failure to practice medicine in accordance with accepted standards (this would include disclosing problems with a fetus). For instance if a woman had a quad screening and the results came back with possible indications for trisomy issues (21, 13 etc.) I'm not sure how a doctor in good faith hid or fail to disclose that to a patient, because it would hinder the consent process for the next set of interventions (CV sampling or amniocentsis)

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#7 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 11:00 AM
 
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So are they going to outlaw ALL prenatal testing and ultrasounds? I mean why have the tests if the Doctors aren't going to tell you the results?

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#8 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 12:25 PM
 
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The *only* good thing about this thread is the respect people have been showing and how it has *not* become an abortion debate.

Thank you all for that!

 

 

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#9 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 12:50 PM
 
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Yeah, I'm not seeing what the point of performing the tests is (and in many cases these are ELECTIVE tests) if the results can be lied about to the patients. You go in to the Dr for an Amnio to see if there are issues, if the Dr is allowed to lie to you what was the point of the test?

And how this relates to the first part is awful. A girl is raped by a relative, decides for her emotional well being that she can't go through with the pregnancy... then she has to be forced to watch the US... lets say she changes her mind but only barely and decides to go through with the pregnancy. But oh wait, the babe has a severe medical issue and probably wont survive. And guess what, the Dr knew about it during that fateful US. I mean, how much emotional trauma do they really need to inflict on the poor girl?

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#10 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 01:30 PM
 
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Drs should always be required to give patients full disclosure as to their condition and health status. So, I do have big problems with the second law shielding Drs that withhold info. I don't have problems with the first one though. I see the first law as upholding full disclosure.

And I won't say anymore so that I stay within the UA.
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#11 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 01:36 PM
 
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I don't have a problem with the first one, either. An ultrasound seems like it would be a good idea to not only access about how far along in pregnancy the woman is, but so that it's more realistic when she consents to the abortion. I actually thought that was done, anyway, as the women I can think of who have underwent one all had ultrasounds during at least one visit beforehand.

The second one doesn't make any sense to me.

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#12 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:14 PM
 
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My issue with the first is (again not looking at the law or how its described) the in depth description of the limbs, heart, organs etc, during the US. I think many of us remember US in which the tech takes measurements might point out some features (limbs, heart, etc.) It seems like this description process could be done in a very clinical process or if its written vaguely, it could be taken very overboard by an individual techinician or physician again pressing their beliefs (and in a position of power) onto an patient looking for and requesting a medical procedure.

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#13 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:20 PM
 
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Aren't most abortions are performed very early on? It does seem odd that they would be able to share so much detail about the fetus unless the pregnancy had progressed into the 2nd trimester.

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#14 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife View Post
Aren't most abortions are performed very early on? It does seem odd that they would be able to share so much detail about the fetus unless the pregnancy had progressed into the 2nd trimester.
You can measure a heartbeat as early as six weeks. Imagine "Your baby's heart is beating at 120 bpm, nice and strong and healthy. Your baby's arms are x mm long and her little fingers are growing."

If you are in for an abortion, what is the point of full disclosure here, but no disclosure of any deformities?

Momma to DS 1, age 8 and rainbow baby DS2 4-21-11.
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#15 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:54 PM
 
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As someone who had a first trimester natural miscarriage at home and saw the fetus, I can assure you that it was pretty detailed looking. I won't go into specifics here, but it perfectly lined up with the photos I'd seen on fetal development. It wasn't just some blob that is indistinguishable.
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#16 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't have a problem with the first one, either. An ultrasound seems like it would be a good idea to not only access about how far along in pregnancy the woman is, but so that it's more realistic when she consents to the abortion. I actually thought that was done, anyway, as the women I can think of who have underwent one all had ultrasounds during at least one visit beforehand.

The second one doesn't make any sense to me.
No it's not done. An ultrasound is performed for viability, and location prior to an abortion, but the screen is not turned toward the patient and no information is given, unless the woman wants to know.

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#17 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
You can measure a heartbeat as early as six weeks. Imagine "Your baby's heart is beating at 120 bpm, nice and strong and healthy. Your baby's arms are x mm long and her little fingers are growing."

If you are in for an abortion, what is the point of full disclosure here, but no disclosure of any deformities?
The point is true informed consent. I can tell you that after I lost my baby to a natural miscarriage at home, my best friend who had had an abortion years ago was quite interested in the realities of what it looked like and asked me detailed questions. And yes the reality of it made quite an impact on her, even though over 15 years had passed.
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#18 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
The point is true informed consent. I can tell you that after I lost my baby to a natural miscarriage at home, my best friend who had had an abortion years ago was quite interested in the realities of what it looked like and asked me detailed questions. And yes the reality of it made quite an impact on her, even though over 15 years had passed.
She always could have asked. They make it clear up front that you can ask any questions, as well as there is counseling done prior to an abortion. When I had one, I was young and very curious about at what stage of development the baby was, and asked very very detailed questions. I wanted to know everything, before I made up my mind.

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#19 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 03:35 PM
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Wow.

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#20 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 03:39 PM
 
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True informed consent...what is meant by this? Usually informed consent is encompasses the following information (this is just not for abortions, but any procedure - except in a medical emergency):

your condition
the procedure, a description, time involvement etc
the risks of the procedure, benefits
additional risks (like you will be sedated, require a driver, CTs etc)
alternatives to the procedure
Your consent - signature or LAR (typically)

I'm having a hard time understanding where a detailed description of the fetus plays into true informed consent, and I think that's why I'm having a hard time wrestling with the first law, because it may (again haven't seen the exact legal language) borderline on including nonclinical & personal beliefs into that description. I'll take Geek's earlier description example re: heartbeat:

Imagine "Your baby's heart is beating at 120 bpm, nice and strong and healthy. Such a beautiful lifeYour baby's arms are x mm long and her little fingers are growing wiggling, waving

Italics are little statements which may be allowed (again not sure per law) which could have powerful impacts given the power dynamics which occur between patients and physicians. I think unless its written very carefully (which I highly doubt) personal beliefs will begin to come into (again) the realm of healthcare.

Again I'll be waiting for the case which overturns this or gets taken to the federal courts to be challenged in terms of constitutionality

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#21 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 04:36 PM
 
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I'll just say I agree with Arduinna on both points.
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#22 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 05:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
As someone who had a first trimester natural miscarriage at home and saw the fetus, I can assure you that it was pretty detailed looking. I won't go into specifics here, but it perfectly lined up with the photos I'd seen on fetal development. It wasn't just some blob that is indistinguishable.
Okay, I went through the same thing.. natural miscarriage at home, first trimester. All I did see was a plum colored blob.
Not trying to belittle your experience. I just wanted to point out that not all miscarrying moms see the same thing you did. Loosing a kid sucks. I'm sorry any of us have to go through that.

Back to Oklahoma, I'm glad I don't live there. I'm hoping these actions will overturned somehow. For a doctor not to give full disclosure to a patient should be criminal in my opinion.
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#23 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 05:51 PM
 
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Throwing this out here.

Okay, what if the Doctor doesn't tell the woman the baby has a problem. A problem that requires a medical team in place as soon as the baby is born.

So the baby is born with the problem and then dies because the medical team is not in place. Can the Doctor be sued?
Yes. From the text of the bill I downloaded from here:

Quote:
This section shall not preclude causes of action based on claims that, but for a wrongful act or omission, maternal death or injury would not have occurred, or handicap, disease, or disability of an individual prior to birth would have been prevented, cured, or ameliorated in a manner that preserved the health and life of the affected individual.
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#24 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, the law seems pretty specific to allowing doctors to withhold information to prevent an abortion. It might well affect many people who will be shocked to find that their baby didn't develop normally (though not medically life threatening), the doctor knew and didn't tell them, and now they have no legal right to sue for withholding that information.

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#25 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll just say I agree with Arduinna on both points.
I want to know an opposing thought process on this, unless of course it is based in the belief that abortions shouldn't occur in the first polace. I am to understand that that particular topic is a no-no. Which makes sense. It's the same thing as arguing with an Objectivist if you're a follower of Iris Murdoch. It is fundamentally different. It's an a priori thing, and it won't change.

But I really would like to hear sound rationales on why it's a good thing to force women to view and listen to a detailed recital of the ultrasound before an abortion. All questions about development are already covered with a trained counselor prior to the procedure. The U/S is only for viability and location.

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#26 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 07:46 PM
 
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Well, I don't have a problem with the first law (not entirely sure about the second).

First of all, I would imagine that abortion clinics where the u/s would take place prior to the abortion would have very very strict rules on what exactly could be said, and techs would not be allowed to speak about the baby except in the most unemotional way. They would not be actively trying to get women to not have an abortion or else they'd lose their job.

Also, if a medical description of the baby and a fuzzy u/s picture would change a woman's mind about having an abortion, then doesn't that say something about that woman's choice (as in, it's the wrong one for her)?

I imagine this situation: A woman is facing an unintended pregnancy and decides that she should terminate, and she tells the counselor at the clinic that she'd rather not know anything about the baby's development because she doesn't want to be swayed by her emotions or just would rather not have to deal with her emotional reaction to knowing the full extent of what she was doing. In other words, she sticks her head in the sand in order to go through with it. Then days, weeks, years later she finds out the details she declined to hear before the abortion and truly regrets having it done. I think that it's a good thing for the medical professionals to insist that the woman make a truly informed decision instead of being allowed to go through with the procedure that she would not have done had she not been given the opportunity to opt out of knowing all the facts.
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#27 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 08:03 PM
 
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Back to Oklahoma, I'm glad I don't live there. I'm hoping these actions will overturned somehow. For a doctor not to give full disclosure to a patient should be criminal in my opinion.
I am from there, it is a nice place. But uh...yeah ITA it should be criminal not to fully disclose medical information to a patient.

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#28 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also, if a medical description of the baby and a fuzzy u/s picture would change a woman's mind about having an abortion, then doesn't that say something about that woman's choice (as in, it's the wrong one for her)?
We don't go into details about surgeries or most other major medical procedures because, frankly, I think it would scare people off. Shoudl we do that to ensure that people completely understand what happens pre intra and post op during a CABG? Believe me, you don't wanna know. Or, if you do, you'll ask.

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#29 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:09 PM
 
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huh? My husband has had bypass surgery you can bet we knew exactly what they were going to do and what recovery should be expected before he consented. That is a part of full informed consent.
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#30 of 56 Old 04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
 
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Purple Sage, I couldn't figure out how to word my thoughts, and deleted my post earlier - but you said it well.

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