The state of Arizona move to ban the 14th amendment. - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 03:12 PM
 
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I don't think anyone has called anyone posting a racist. Of course there will be many sides to issue and as we all fall on deciding what is an acceptable law to be created in the United States.

I want to go back to the notion or rule of thumb I like to use as stated in a previous post which is: could this law ever be proposed in any other border state in the U.S. and possibly pass?

Or is this a situation of events, violence and general social unease about the economy, possibly some race issues which are bubbling to the surface in ways that folks in the area believe will help stem the tide of some of these problems they are facing (increase in violence being the prime target I assume)

As someone who is not in AZ, but avidly watching the legislation pass (first the immigration papers, and then the AZ school board discontinuing ethnic studies) it begins to made me wonder what is going on socially to drive these changes and seemingly "whitewash" a culture in the U.S.

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#32 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 03:22 PM
 
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I never said anything about "being lucky" coming here illegally, or havng a baby here and staying illegally. Neither does your logic make sense to me. When people come here through a legal procedure, they are not exposed to a process where people can steal from them, shoot them, or rape them.
I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.

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#33 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 05:18 PM
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I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. Hopefully you or I or someone else will find some factual information about it and post here. I am curious to know what percentage of immgrants applying they allow from each country. I would assume it would be a equal percentage of those applying.
But there does have to be order to the process. We are the most free country in the world, so a lot of people want to come here. But if we allow every person to come here, we would end up with many who do not understand why we are a free country to begin with.
(Keeping in mind we are the first country of our kind. Many people in the world don't understand the reasons for our freedoms, or the responsibilities we have in maintaining it)

I also think it is an assumption to say that coming here is a matter of life and death. There are some who come here for that reason, but there are almost always other options. I would think there are very few situations where the literally only two choices are 1. die, or 2. come to the US.

I DEF agree with you here:

"Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally."

But your next statement about how that's not going to happen, why would you say that? If you geniunely feel like that is the best solution (and I think most Americans agree), why would you dismiss it as "not going to happen"? If everyone who thought that a good solution would stand up and demand Washington hear them, it would happen. We are the ones employing those in Washington, after all.

About my own experiences, yes I did become a citizen after my baby was born. I'm not sure how much that helped me out, because my application was based on marriage to my dh ( after I was arrested for driving without a liscence and was threatened with my 4 month old being put into Child Services care).
My parents brought me here assuming I was eligible for citizenship for a reason I will not mention. Turns out I was not, and when it came time to either apply properly or leave, my only option was to get married.

Which is another reason I think it is better to go through legalities before coming here. When you are a citizen of another country applying legally, you maintain all your personal rights. When you are illegally present and trying to apply, you are a person with no rights, subject to whatever regulations they feel like writting up. For me it was marriage.
I probably would have been w dh for a long time anyway,and maybe evntually married him, but the forced nature of it puts stress on life when it shouldn't be there. (And many other repercutions from it that don't belong in this thread)
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#34 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 08:02 PM
 
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I have been following this thread and I believe that I am going to have to agree with bluebird on this one.

I live in South Florida and I have had the experience of working with a young girl for several years that was an illegal immigrant from Colombia. She wasn't born here and her mother was brought her here when she was 4. She had hardly spent any of her life in Colombia, and when I met her she was in her early twenties. She was working under the table for a man that was of questionable morals. I believe he took advantage of her for years and I felt quite sad about what she was experiencing. She eventually got sponsored and after marrying for a greed card (to an abusive man) she was able to get her citizenship. She was my friend and I was very upset with our immigration law and how much she had to suffer, when she had worked so hard and couldn't make the same choices of others that had citizen ship. Her mother got her papers but never got them for her daughter, which is criminal in my mind.

That said, I am a nurse in training and I have spoken to several maternity nurses that said how common it is for mothers to fly here to deliver their babies so they can have dual citizenship. They have told me that the mothers don't even lie about it anymore...one said the mother was only here for two weeks just to give birth. Personally, my cousins husband is a Muslim from Morocco. I know for a fact that his sister stayed with him, alone, for the last month of her pregnancy just so she could give birth her and then flew back to Morocco.

Lastly, I don't really believe that the media is "scaremongering" with these stories about violence on the border. My h is in the army and is stationed in El Paso, TX. They are literally on the border with Juarez, a notoriously violent town. They have upwards of 20 murders a day and many of them are incredibly heinous, including daily beheadings by drug cartels. I actually was considering moving there and I called a local Montessori, and the receptionist was telling me that they have recently expanded because they were receiving so many new students because the border violence was horrific. Families were coming over the border and relocated to El Paso. She ensured my that El Paso was one of the safest cities in the Us, and maybe it is, but I it would take a lot for me to be comfortable leaving my child in a school less than 20 minutes from the border.

So, I do think the law needs to change. I consider myself a democrat.

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#35 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 08:11 PM
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I would like to remind everyone that there is no namecalling, and the use of the term "illegal" falls under that. Saying that they are in the U.S. illegally, or saying that they are illegal immigrants is fine, and is describing something they are doing. Calling the person, themselves, illegal, is not okay. So, please, if you used it, edit. Thank you all very much. Please PM me if you need clarification on this.

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#36 of 43 Old 06-17-2010, 09:14 PM
 
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I agree with everyone really.

It is such a tragedy.

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#37 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 02:48 AM
 
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I did mention that I am not from this country right? 98% of my family does not live here. If someone from my family wanted to come to the US, because they were starving or whatever reason, I would suggest they should do it legally (after sending food-for whatever it's worth in this thread). If they came here illegally, I would not be opposed to them being arrested. Because they broke the law.

These people are coming here for a better life, most of them. And I think they should.

But if we are a country that is going to enforce it's laws, we need to do so equally. Not, illegal for most, but excusable for them because...

When someone is migating to the US, and they hear "the US doesn't enfore their immigrantion laws", what are they going to think? Are they going to decide to ignore the first law they are breaking, but then take every one seriously after that? Or will they think we don't necessarily enforce our laws? If the US doesn't take it's laws seriously, why should they?

My point about how AZ gets it, and the rest of the country doesn't is that they are right on the border, so they see illegal disregard for the law on levels that we do not.
In our towns (most of our towns), there are some illegal immigrants. But not so many, that the drug cartels run the town and we are seeing more than one kidnap per day.
If we do not stop the constant flow of illegally migrating people into the country, we will see more and more towns where this will be the case.
(not becaus illegal immigrants are bad, but when we give people the idea that it's ok to ignore some laws, there will be ignoring of more laws)

When we allow the babies of illegal immigrants citizenship, it's like we are making what the parents did "less illegal". And it also makes it tempting to come here and start a family before going through the legal process.
About 30% of the homes in my neighborhood are homes to illegally migrant families. They broke the law. I do not think they should be sent back to Mexico, but I do think they need to file proper legal paperwork, and learn english, so they enjoy a good quality of life. And I think if we changed the 14th, it would encouage people to come here legally, instead of just coming. There would be less incentive to do it illegally.

As far as different borders having different levels of security, that's not discrimination or racism, that's common sense. You put more security where there are more illegal crossing, kidnappings and murders. I don't hear too much about that on our other border.

to a pp--- in my previous post I was talking about the lack of federal govt involvement in helping the states against the drug cartels. The state and local police along the border are trying to keep it under control, but the police themselves get kidnapped or go missing, or members of their families. They simply cannot get it under control, and have been asking the fed govt to help for years, but it's like they don't even hear them

mamaofthree--- I would like point out that I am not scaremongering, or trying to. I have never seen stories like the ones I am talking about on tv. Granted I don't watch a ton of tv, but I do watch a lot of national news.
I am not talking about the occasional missing person, there is quite a bit of news about what goes on at the border, but you have to search online for it, because for some reason national news doesn't talk about it.
I would also like to say that I do not have visual in my head of a Mexican person harming a white person. In fact, most of the missing persons are Mexican. And when the illegal border hoping makes it harder to find Mexican citizens when they go missing because there is no documentation of where they are/were, when, etc.
And of course there are white people involved in the kidnappings,etc, too. I am not a racist.

I would also like to say that I am not Republican, Democrate, Independent,or any other political title that I know of, so if that helps you to be more open minded about what I am saying, then please read my post again.
just because someone made a choice to make a better life for their family doesn't mean they disregard all laws.

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#38 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 02:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Monarchgrrl View Post
I know you never said that. I only included your name because you are one of the ones being vocal about illegal immigrants. I get what you mean about the fact that if someone comes here legally then they most likely won't get robbed and raped and I agree, however, most Mexicans that apply will be flat out denied entry! Period. It absolutely helps being white and from a northern border or a European country to gain legal entry. How many Mexicans would be able to legally come here if they applied (with no job, possibly no special skills, old age, etc), and after waiting how long? For some (many!) it's life or death of whether they come here now or wait it out. So, just curious, feel free not to answer, but why did your parents come here illegally and not legally? Also, did you become a citizen after you had your baby here?

Personally I think the answer is to make the legal process easier, cheaper, and shorter so that there is an incentive to doing it legally. However, that's not going to happen because the powers that be want only certain kinds of immigrants here and they don't want to "overwhelm" the system by allowing anyone and everyone in. So...the illegal border crossing will continue.

mama to one '07 and one '09
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#39 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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just because someone made a choice to make a better life for their family doesn't mean they disregard all laws.
tis true. I've been known to cruise at about 5 - 10 mph above the speed limit on the freeway. But the chances of me holding up a liquor store any time soon are slim to none.
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#40 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 02:48 PM
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tis true. I've been known to cruise at about 5 - 10 mph above the speed limit on the freeway. But the chances of me holding up a liquor store any time soon are slim to none.
But you are doing this with the awareness that there are highway patrol ready to pull you over if they see you. If there were no threat of being pulled over you'd probably do 15-20 over the speed limit
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#41 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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I agree with the PP that said to make the process easier and cheaper. But that's not how they did it/ are doing it. When my DH was in the process of getting his green card a few years ago, they doubled ALL THE PRICES for EVERY form. Then they made him get finger printed THREE times. When the office in Philly didn't have a finger printing appointment for the third time, they offered to set him up an appointment in North Carolina!

My SIL couldn't get her VISA renewed...she's been legal with each one, started her own business, has a college degree, and is working towards being able to afford a green card. But, they just out and said "you're done. sorry!" when she applied for an extension.

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#42 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 04:02 PM
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sol...al_legislation

in case anyone wanted to see a complete list of Jus Soli nations. It's found in most nations of this hemisphere, obviously that shows the history of this hemisphere, kwim?

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#43 of 43 Old 06-18-2010, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But you are doing this with the awareness that there are highway patrol ready to pull you over if they see you. If there were no threat of being pulled over you'd probably do 15-20 over the speed limit
no, no I wouldn't.
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