DNA, child support and paternity? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I put this thread in "Activism" because I feel that child support is a children's rights issue. If it needs to be moved, that's fine too.

I've recently read a few articles about how DNA is changing the way we view paternity as a society. Apparently, one change has been that men who've had father-child relationships with children for years are having DNA tests done and proving they are not the father. Of course, these tests are ususally done after a messy break-up with the child's mother. I'm not even going to get into that part of it...

So, obviously, children are being hurt by this. What can be done? I have an idea, but I'm sure it's got some downside to it. So I'm hoping maybe we can discuss this issue with a focus on what is best for the children invovled.

My idea is that paternity can be contested until the child is a certain age. After that, paternity cannot be contested by either parent because a father-child relationship has been established, regardless of DNA. I think a good age would be two, because while it would certainly be painful for a toddler to loose their father, the child will most likely not remember it.

With DNA becoming cheaper all the time, this is an issue we will surely be faced with more and more often. What are some other ideas of how to handle this? Or should fathers legally be allowed to test their child for paternity at any age?
pugmadmama is offline  
#2 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 10:09 PM
 
Shenjall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Canada!
Posts: 3,852
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My ex insisted on a dna test when our son was 9 years old. (year and a half ago) The funny thing is, they look EXACTLY alike!
Let me tell you what a slap in the face that was. Especially as we had broken up when he was 3. Funny, he wouldnt pay for half of his perscription glasses but seemed to find $600 for the test....
Anyway, my lawyer explained to me that even if it came out that he wasnt the father, ds recognized him as a father and he would still have to pay support.
So, I'm happy with our courts line of thinking. I would hope all courts would look at the interests of the child - especially after the child has bonded with this man as the father.
Shenjall is offline  
#3 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 10:12 PM
Banned
 
Marlena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My off-the-cuff first guess is that such a system would help destabilize marriages, in that it would help prompt a man to question paternity...and not only that, but relatively soon after a child is born. Whether or not the test is negative, some damage has likely been done - just as, for instance, damage is done when a partner thinks the other has been cheating, and becomes so insecure about it that s/he checks up on the partner, only to find, lo and behold, that there's no evidence of cheating.

I suppose the interesting question here is: what does it mean to be a parent, and to what extent, if at all, is "actual" parenthood tied up with biological parenthood?
Marlena is offline  
#4 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 10:17 PM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
I think it's great that courts are finally recognizing that parenthood is more than biological.

I hear the DNA tests aren't 100% accutate - that they can only prove that you're NOT the father, not that you are the father. They can show you could have been the father, but if there are many possible fathers to choose from (let's say someone was gang-raped by 20 men) and it shows that 15 aren't the father and 5 could have been, what does the woman do then?

Also, can a man legally refuse a DNA test?
Greaseball is offline  
#5 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 10:25 PM
 
dado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
it's the wave of the future, better get used to it. we're entering a golden age where we're going to discover just how much hanky panky is going on out there.

you can blame the brits: a few years back a genetics study was started that sampled the DNA of all new borns and the couple who claimed to be their parents. the study was cancelled once they started discovering something like 1 in 5 babies were not related to the guy in the delivery room: word spread, consent signatures became scarce.
dado is offline  
#6 of 57 Old 04-01-2004, 11:21 PM
Banned
 
Marlena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yup, those stats jive pretty well with those found in the U.S. when tests are done to determine whether a person is a potential organ or tissue donor for a parent or child. Approximately 20% are not related at all (leading to one of several ethical questions - what should the doc tell the person who provided the sample?)

Re this:
Quote:
I think it's great that courts are finally recognizing that parenthood is more than biological.
Actually, it's quite the opposite. Only relatively recently have some courts decided that they'll allow a husband to disavow paternity (with all its rights and duties) on the basis of a DNA test re a child born during the marriage. According to this view, it's the genes that matter, or whether the person did the deed, rather than the person's emotional and material relationship with the child. And genes have been gaining even more prominence in family law in recent years, what with a number of prominent cases concerning the right of one individual to use frozen embryos produced during a marriage or relationship after the relationship goes south. At least to the best of my knowledge, all such cases have come down on the side of the parent who DOESN'T want to reproduce to bar use of the embryos, even if the other parent is willing to not seek any support of any kind from the unwilling one.
Marlena is offline  
#7 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 02:28 AM
 
Jane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kenmore, Washington
Posts: 7,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sometimes I wonder if we should just test every child at birth. If it's everyone, all the time, there should not be trust issues.
I do think there should be a limit to contest paternity, say 2 years. Also, you shouldn't be able to track down a man and demand 9 years child support for a nine-year-old that the father doesn't know about. That should be a 2 year limit, too.
In my genetics studies, the often quoted figure is 10% mis-identified paternity. That seems to hold true for religious families in religious communities in the US (not to name names) as well as urban British hospitals and tribes living deep in the rain forest.
I know of two cases, personal friends and family, both married couples. No one ever suspected, seriously! The kids looked like Mom and sort of like Dad and I never questioned it. Life is strange, huh?
Did you hear about the woman who was not genetically related to her children? She was a chimera of two fertilized eggs. Her mouth had one DNA pattern and her ovaries had the other. So the cheek swab did not match the children. Can you imagine not being related (well, sort of) to your children, that you birthed?

Homebirth Midwife biggrinbounce.gif

After 4 m/c, our stillheart.gif is here!

Jane is offline  
#8 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 12:34 PM
 
Piglet68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 11,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great topic, pug!

I have to disagree with Marlena: your marriage was already in trouble if your DH has to question paternity, or if you have to follow your spouse around to see if he's being faithful.

I'm heartened by those who claim that law recognizes the bond established between a man and child regardless of genetics.

As an adopted child myself, I am all too aware of how little DNA factors into parenting and a sense of family.

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

Piglet68 is offline  
#9 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 12:56 PM
Banned
 
Marlena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I have to disagree with Marlena: your marriage was already in trouble if your DH has to question paternity, or if you have to follow your spouse around to see if he's being faithful.
ITA with your statement. I think, though, that if men knew they had a two year window in which to contest paternity or else it would be shut forever, it might prompt men who would otherwise give it a passing thought and then let it go to instead go through with the testing, to everyone's detriment.

For women, maternity is a biological fact. For men, it's taken on faith. Why do something that's bound to shake the faith, particularly when men are generally so insecure about the matter anyway (hence many of our cultural and legal conventions regarding marriage and paternity)?
Marlena is offline  
#10 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 01:09 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Will not rehash the story from another thread, but will put it out in hypothetical.

And if a wife leaves the husband before she even takes a pregnancy test, moves in with her lover, sues for divorce while still in the first trimester ... ie., the husband has the DNA but not the child, and another man (the lover) is claiming the child as his ... is that DNA determinative of anything except that the DNA provider is required to pay money?

The lover has zero incentive to legally adopt the child, because then the family unit (mother, lover, and child) lose a source of nontaxable income (read: the DNA-provider no longer would have to send them money every month).

Remembering that there are several sides to a story.

The courts in NY have stated (as someone in the above-referenced situation was told) that a child born within the legal boundaries of a marriage will not lose that presumption of legitimacy. Despite the fact that the mother sued for divorce while the child was in the early stages of gestation ... because the divorce was not final for several years.










Another relevant tale, was from the news some years ago (about 5 or 6, but then it was already a little old) about a couple who froze some embryos for themselves, but then a few years later divorced. A few years after that (the ex-husband had remarried & had a family, the ex-wife had not) the ex-wife decided to take those frozen embryos and have a baby.

The ex-husband was made to pay child support. Didn't have much choice in the parenting part, and doesn't have much choice about the payment part either.









Am surprised, pugmadmama, that you would suggest that testing for paternity should be allowable post-birth at all. Particularly because of the inability of paternity testing to be 100% despositive of paternity ...
merpk is offline  
#11 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 02:23 PM
 
Piglet68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 11,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I didn't get that the OP was suggesting paternity tests be used for or against monetary compensation.

I got the idea that she was pointing out the potential for damaged relationships between children and their fathers should the father learn late in the child's life that he's not the biological parent.

While I agree that such things *may* pose potential emotional harm to the children, I think disallowing paternity tests would fall into a zone of restricted personal rights that I'm not comfortable with. It reminds me of closed adoption laws where nobody was allowed to see the records even if both parties wanted to.

I am having a hard time putting myself in a position where I would truly care if I found out my child was not genetically mine. Again, this probably comes from being adopted and recognizing how unimportant that factor is in a relationship between parent and child. The hurt would more likely be extended to the person who lied and/or cheated to set up that situation. Certainly I could not love my daughter any less!

If a father found out years later that the child he raised as his own was not his, why would that change anything? I actually have to question (as I think this through further) why this would need to be so hurtful to either parent or child. After all, the reality is that many children are not biologically related to their parents. Perhaps getting that message out loud and clear in our society would lessen the blow of discovering that the person they know as Dad simply doesn't share their genes.

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

Piglet68 is offline  
#12 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 03:17 PM
 
dado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Piglet68

If a father found out years later that the child he raised as his own was not his, why would that change anything?
i think for most men, they'd get over it, and the relationship with the child could continue. now, the relationship with the mother, that would probably be a completely different story...

there's a lot of biology going on under the surface that as a society we're turning a blind eye to. for instance, it is now well documented that the timing of female acts of marital infidelity is correlated with the fertility cycle - ie, concisously or not, women are *trying* to get knocked-up outside the marital bond.

i'm not particularly shocked by this: what might appeal to a women as a set of genes to pass along is not always the same as what appeals to a women in the sense of "i want up wake up next to these genes every morning", KWIM?
dado is offline  
#13 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 03:27 PM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 21,139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Piglet, I think the issue is not simply that people would have any big problem with raising a child that is not biologically theors (although some would, certainly) but that unlike a simple adoption equation we are talking about situations in which the lack of biology is evidence of a deeper treachery. It is proof of lies and infidelity. That's a big hurdle for many, many people.

ER touched on this last night. Anyone see it?
kama'aina mama is offline  
#14 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 03:52 PM
 
Piglet68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 11,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
there's a lot of biology going on under the surface that as a society we're turning a blind eye to.
Yup. Reminds me of a famous study of monogamous bird mating pairs. These birds apparently mated for life. An unexpected finding when trying to genetically profile these birds was that a huge proportion of nests had chicks from multiple fathers. Few of these birds were "faithful" to the male who built the nest and supplied mama with food. It turned out to be a great way to promote genetic diversity, while maintaining a strong female/chick bond (due to help from a stable and loyal "spouse").

Oh the things animals teach us about ourselves!

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

Piglet68 is offline  
#15 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:23 PM
Banned
 
Mamid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Fraser Valley
Posts: 1,841
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
The lover has zero incentive to legally adopt the child, because then the family unit (mother, lover, and child) lose a source of nontaxable income (read: the DNA-provider no longer would have to send them money every month).
That income IS taxable in Canada, so getting it isn't an incentive, but giving it is, because it comes out of pre-tax dollars. So his income effectively goes down, and hers goes up and has to be taxed, sometimes shooting her into a higher and harsher tax bracket.

Dickwad, my name for my daughter's biodad, was the only man I slept with for almost two years. He was the only one there at her conception and there at her birth. And he even argued with me about which name was going to be on her certificate. And his parents tried to get him to marry me which I refused.

Then we split up. At that point, he started calling me a whore and a tramp and more. DD was eventually lost to CPS because of a family war my mother decided to start. He showed up at court a year and a half before the actual trial started and said he didn't want either me or my mother raising DD and that she should be adopted out. This is a man who gave up custody and it was a fight to get child support out of him!

Then, during all that, I start hearing that he's saying he's not her father and that I was a tramp. I just about flipped and if I hadn't lost custody of her to CPS, I would have demanded a DNA test. Even now, I still say she should get one when she comes of age.

-----------------------------------

My dad might not be my dad. Rumours abound that my mother was screwing two other men about the same time she conceived me. But my dad says that I am his daughter since I was born during the marriage and before the divorce was started and that I look like him. I'm still tempted to go on Maury and get a DNA test to prove that I'm his. Cause if I'm not, my mother and I will have words.....

-----------------------------------

Then there's DP. We're not married. I have no desire for him to make me an "honest woman" and we're having our second child together. I asked him what he thought about going on Maury for DNA testing. He said no, that it didn't matter. DS and DB are his even if they aren't biologically his and there's no need for a test to prove it.

Not like I've been sleeping around on him, but that just shows how much of a Man I have vs the boy that sired my DD.
Mamid is offline  
#16 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Piglet68
...If a father found out years later that the child he raised as his own was not his, why would that change anything? I actually have to question (as I think this through further) why this would need to be so hurtful to either parent or child...
From a USA Today article:

An acid sense of betrayal has been gnawing at Damon Adams since a DNA test showed that he is not the father of a 10-year-old girl born during his former marriage.

"Something changes in your heart," says Adams, 51, a dentist in Traverse City, Mich. "When she walks through the door, you're seeing the product of an affair."



From the website, Paternity Fraud.com :

From a letter a lawyer wrote to encouage a "paternity fraud" law in Georgia (bolds are mine): Opponents of the Bill have cited the "best interest of the children" and the necessity of a statute of limitations in an effort to derail the Bill, however, the logic behind these arguments is fallacious... There is no best interest because it is not your child. The best interest analysis is pretermited by your non-relationship.


I hate, absolutely hate, that in this day and age, so many people are still insisting that parenthood consists of nothing more than passing on DNA. And who gets hurt the most? The children involved.
pugmadmama is offline  
#17 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:31 PM
 
dado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
saying it matters to pass along your own genes is not the same as saying it's the *only* thing that matters. the individual in that article has every right to feel betrayed.
dado is offline  
#18 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:40 PM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 21,139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
It's amusing to me how these "paternity fraud" people switch the article from "best interests of the children" to "your child" (with a negative modifier thrown in) to make it sound as though by negating the paternity you negate the needs, perhaps even the very existance, of the child.

"I'm pissed at the mother and shall punish the child"
second verse, same as the first.
A little bit louder and a little bit worse!
kama'aina mama is offline  
#19 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:46 PM
 
daria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Apricot

Did you hear about the woman who was not genetically related to her children? She was a chimera of two fertilized eggs. Her mouth had one DNA pattern and her ovaries had the other. So the cheek swab did not match the children.
I read an article about that woman...it makes you question the validity of paternity testing, at least with negative results. There was also a scandal in Washington DC a few years back where a city health worker was accepting bribes to swap a suspected father's cheek swab with a stranger's...so that the paternity test would come out negative.

The age cut-off doesn't work for me though. It's just too arbitrary.
daria is offline  
#20 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:47 PM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
There is a law in Florida that says if a woman conceives as a result of rape, she cannot give the child up for adoption unless the "father" agrees to it, and he is entitled to visitation if the mother chooses to keep the child.

If the woman doesn't know the identity of the rapist, they run ads in the newspaper looking for him. The ads consist of a description of the woman, where and when conception took place, and any known physical characteristics of the man.
Greaseball is offline  
#21 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
saying it matters to pass along your own genes is not the same as saying it's the *only* thing that matters. the individual in that article has every right to feel betrayed.
I agree he has the right to feel betrayed. But to take it out on the child you've raised as your own for ten years??? His exact quotes were that something changed "in his heart" and that when he looks at his daughter, he sees "the product of an affair."

I guess what I am wondering is this...if adults cannot be expected to honor the bonds of love and parenting when testing proves the bond of DNA is not there, then is that something we should be allowing with children under the age of 18?

My idea behind a law not allowing DNA tests when children are between the ages of 2-18 is not for secrecy or deception, but rather to protect the children involved. It's a way of saying, "DNA is not as important as the bond you've created with this child. Please honor that, no matter how this child was concieved."

I know there would be problems with a law like that. It just breaks my heart to think of these completely innocent children being hurt like this. And the fact is that a lot of these cases come on the heels of a divorce, so now we've got a child whose life has been disrupted twice in very painful ways.
pugmadmama is offline  
#22 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseball
There is a law in Florida that says if a woman conceives as a result of rape, she cannot give the child up for adoption unless the "father" agrees to it, and he is entitled to visitation if the mother chooses to keep the child.

If the woman doesn't know the identity of the rapist, they run ads in the newspaper looking for him. The ads consist of a description of the woman, where and when conception took place, and any known physical characteristics of the man.
Good grief! I hope there is a movement to change that law!
pugmadmama is offline  
#23 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Apricot
Sometimes I wonder if we should just test every child at birth. If it's everyone, all the time, there should not be trust issues.
I do think there should be a limit to contest paternity, say 2 years. Also, you shouldn't be able to track down a man and demand 9 years child support for a nine-year-old that the father doesn't know about. That should be a 2 year limit, too.
In my genetics studies, the often quoted figure is 10% mis-identified paternity...
I wonder if that's the direction we're moving in? Testing children for DNA at birth, like we test for other things routinely. On one hand, that sounds fine. But on the other hand, what happens in those 1 in 10 fathers find out the DNA results???

It seems to me that if the 10% figure is fairly consistant across populations, then maybe it's some sort of biological imperative that we should not be messing around with.

Why can't there ever be easy answers to these difficult questions?!
pugmadmama is offline  
#24 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 05:05 PM
 
dado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
what happens in those 1 in 10 fathers find out the DNA results???

i thought you were in support of people being held accountable for the choices they make at the time of sexual intercourse. since the "father" in these cases had nothing to do with conception, your questions shouldn't be directed at him, they should be directed at the women who made a choice to have reproductively viable intercourse outside the bounds of her relationship.

in these cases the husband did absolutely nothing wrong: is he now responsible for not only his choices, but everyone elses as well?
dado is offline  
#25 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 05:06 PM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
They would have to account for false positives and lab errors.

Look what happens in the states that require HIV testing of pregnant women - 1% of them falsely test +. To some that might be an acceptable margin of error, but not to me.
Greaseball is offline  
#26 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by dado
what happens in those 1 in 10 fathers find out the DNA results???

i thought you were in support of people being held accountable for the choices they make at the time of sexual intercourse. since the "father" in these cases had nothing to do with conception, your questions shouldn't be directed at him, they should be directed at the women who made a choice to have reproductively viable intercourse outside the bounds of her relationship.

in these cases the husband did absolutely nothing wrong: is he now responsible for not only his choices, but everyone elses as well?

My first concern is for the child. That comes before everything else, in my opinion. In most cases, it benefits the child to have two parents contribute substantial resources to their upbringing. The most basic way of identifing those two parents is through (assumed) biology. Of course, there are other ways, like adoption. And some parents want to be single parents, which can be good too.

But this "10%" fact has me puzzled. I assumed that number was much lower. 1 in 10, across most populations, is significant. What does that 10% mean?

Then there is DNA, that is forcing the hand on that 10%...is that a good thing?

I've got a lot more questions now than when I started the thread. I'm not sure what the right answer is...

pugmadmama is offline  
#27 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 05:40 PM
 
Piglet68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 11,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wonder, though, if we can protect children against everything.

i mean, finding out your "father" isn't genetically your father may be disrupting, but so are so many other potential crises that families find themselves in - divorce, affairs, substance abuse, sexual abuse, violence in the home, wife beating, or even something as "simple" as a child not being told they were adopted only to find out years later...

i appreciate the sentiment behind this, but I'm just not sure it warrents any extra-special attention.

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

Piglet68 is offline  
#28 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
pugmadmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Piglet68
...i appreciate the sentiment behind this, but I'm just not sure it warrents any extra-special attention.
Maybe it's just caught my attention because it's a new technology that's making this possible? I'm just so frustrated with this idea that severing a father-child relationship after five, ten or more years is the right thing to do based on one test.

I've been noticing more articles about it lately, too. Although the articles I've read pay lip-service to the fact that these tests can be devestating to children, mostly they seem to be a platform for some pissed off guy to self-rightously claim that now he has proof that his ex-wife was nothing but a no-good b*tch. I'm just amazed at how quickly some men can go from "father-child" to "non-relationship". If I found out some switch had occured at the hospital...well, good luck to whoever thinks they are going to get my 11 year old son away from me.

My heart just breaks for these kids, who truly did nothing wrong and yet are paying such a high price.
pugmadmama is offline  
#29 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 06:22 PM
 
dado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by pugmadmama
My first concern is for the child...But this "10%" fact has me puzzled.
i'm completely confused. when it was an issue of where the man put his Wonder Wand, you were all over him for evading responsibility and making his choice at the time of intercourse. in these cases it is clearly and 100% the wife's actions, yet you seem unable to be anywhere near as blunt in holding the individual to accountability. instead of wondering why these women are making the choices they're making, you're worried about men having "proof that his ex-wife was nothing but a no-good b*tch".

which in this case, she was.

forgive me, but this looks like a total double standard...?
dado is offline  
#30 of 57 Old 04-02-2004, 06:27 PM
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,764
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
That's really sad that a man can look at his daughter and see nothing but the product of an affair.

That's like those men whose wives are raped, and then who say that every time they look at her they see a sullied, used-up woman who has absorbed the taint of another man.

I read another story of a five-year-old girl who was playing on a fire hydrant and slipped and fell, and her vagina was cut. She didn't speak English, so the hospital staff just assumed she was raped, which is what they told the parents. And her father never looked at her the same again.
Greaseball is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off