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#61 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 03:33 PM
 
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I'm glad he's dead. I personally blame him and GWB for the death of my brother in Iraq. I was happy that the man that planted the IED that blew up my brother was found and brought to justice (I actually don't know what happened to him) and I'm glad that bin laden has been killed. I'm not celebrating or jumping for joy, though. I will be celebrating and jumping for joy when all our troops are brought home from Iraq and Afghanistan. I feel like I know how a murder victims family might feel at the execution of the convicted. It does feel like the circle is complete and the book is closed (I don't want the fbi to knock at my door, so I won't say anything about GWB). I'm not HAPPY, by any means. But I do believe that 2 out of the 3 people responsible for my brother's death have been brought to justice. I know how the other almost 6000 soldier's families, and the 3000 victim's families that died on 9/11, feel right now. 9/11 was a prefect excuse for GWB to send my brother into Iraq. I hate bin laden for giving him that excuse. I'm glad bin laden's hate has been silenced. I'm sure another member will step up and take his place, though. I hope at least, that this secures Obama's second term.

 

I do think it's "funny" that I see all over facebook that we shouldn't be giving credit to Obama because it's the troops that did it, but if it was Bush, he would have been taking credit ("mission accomplished", anyone?) and everyone would be praising him! eyesroll.gif

 

 


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#62 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 03:44 PM
 
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Obama ordered Bin Laden to be the #1 priority of national security; he ordered the action yesterday and monitored it real time. His leadership led our military to victory. He deserves credit for that.. and if it secures the reelection, that makes me all the merrier, too! :)


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#63 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 04:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

A bunch of people cheering a terrorist attack is the not the same a people cheering the death of a terrorist. 

 



What makes it different? Because Bin Laden was "the bad guy"? To the people cheering the terrorist attack, the US was the bad guy.

 

There is no difference between cheering for someones death and cheering for someones death.


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#64 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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If you can't tell the difference between cheering an act of terrorism where over 3000 people died, then there is nothing more for me to say.

 

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#65 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

If you can't tell the difference between cheering an act of terrorism where over 3000 people died, then there is nothing more for me to say.

 



There is no justice at the point of a gun.  If we truly wanted to avenge 9-11 we should have made every effort to bring Bin Laden before the world court.  Instead his terrorism begat ours...but both are terrorism.

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#66 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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blah blah blah, that kind of mentality would allow everyone to walk away if they can't be taken alive. Sadly many care more about the life of one of Americas most wanted than the lives of American's themselves, like the CIA agents and Navy Seals that tried to capture him. Not that I'm surprised after all the years I've posted here, it's nothing new.

 

The most disgusting thing here is that this board has many members with families in the military, it could be that someone here is related to someone that took part in that operation. And those here are acting like their lives are worth less than a terrorist that has is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. I suppose in your world our people that took part in this operation should have just put up their hands and let themselves be killed if he resisted capture, because you are arguing that nothing but live capture is acceptable.


 

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#67 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 04:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

blah blah blah, that kind of mentality would allow everyone to walk away if they can't be taken alive. Sadly many care more about the life of one of Americas most wanted than the lives of American's themselves, like the CIA agents and Navy Seals that tried to capture him. Not that I'm surprised after all the years I've posted here, it's nothing new.


 

I don't see the logic in what you are saying.  To you our countries laws should only apply to those you choose?  That law is only valid if we decide so at the moment?  I don't get it.
 

Because then what is the point of having laws at all?  Or civilized society for that matter.

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#68 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:03 PM
 
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I don't see the logic in what you are saying.  To you our countries laws should only apply to those you choose?  That law is only valid if we decide so at the moment?  I don't get it.
 

Because then what is the point of having laws at all?  Or civilized society for that matter.


First things are different in times of war, they just are. And second, the law ALLOWS one to shoot and kill someone when their life or property is being threatened.

 

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#69 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by love4bob View Post




First things are different in times of war, they just are. And second, the law ALLOWS one to shoot and kill someone when their life or property is being threatened.

 


There is no "things are just different" in a just society...and you would be hard pressed to see an assisination attempt as self defense.  If anything the self defense clause could be used to justify Bin Laden's use of force, not ours.

 

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There is no "things are just different" in a just society...and you would be hard pressed to see an assisination attempt as self defense.  If anything the self defense clause could be used to justify Bin Laden's use of force, not ours.

 


Particularly since it was his compound where he was shot and killed, and not the US`s

 


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#71 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:44 PM
 
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In a perfect just society there would be no wars either, but we don't live in a utopia, far from it. Life isn't perfect, The soldiers(and President too) did the best they could in the situation they were in. We could all say how it would have been better, but we were not there, we do not know what the situation was, and we don't have the combat zone experience of those who made the calls. It is so easy for those who have never been there or experienced it first hand to say how it should all work out, but it's not so easy when you are in a kill or be killed environment.

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#72 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

blah blah blah, that kind of mentality would allow everyone to walk away if they can't be taken alive. Sadly many care more about the life of one of Americas most wanted than the lives of American's themselves, like the CIA agents and Navy Seals that tried to capture him. Not that I'm surprised after all the years I've posted here, it's nothing new.

 

The most disgusting thing here is that this board has many members with families in the military, it could be that someone here is related to someone that took part in that operation. And those here are acting like their lives are worth less than a terrorist that has is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. I suppose in your world our people that took part in this operation should have just put up their hands and let themselves be killed if he resisted capture, because you are arguing that nothing but live capture is acceptable.


 


Way to paint us as horribly, horrible people, when those of us who are upset by the celebration are people who do not put more value on one life over another.


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#73 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by love4bob View Post

In a perfect just society there would be no wars either, but we don't live in a utopia, far from it. Life isn't perfect, The soldiers(and President too) did the best they could in the situation they were in. We could all say how it would have been better, but we were not there, we do not know what the situation was, and we don't have the combat zone experience of those who made the calls. It is so easy for those who have never been there or experienced it first hand to say how it should all work out, but it's not so easy when you are in a kill or be killed environment.



I'm sorry that doesn't work for me either.  Something like what happened with Bin Laden requires oodles of planning with every contengency mapped out. It was not a spontanious event.  If Obama had wanted to take him alive there would have been provided a way to do so.  That does not seem to have been the plan.

 

And look, it is because we don't live in a utopia that fair government and just laws are necessary.  But if the law is not maintained for all then it might as well not be maintained for anyone.  I would also like to point out that if any other country carried out an assination in cold blood like what happened yesterday the United States government would be howling.  Why do we think we are somehow exempt from the standard to which we hold the rest of the world?

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You know...

 

All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

 

I have no regrets at finding this kind of rhetoric to justify abhorrent behavior on the part of the people celebrating disgusting. The last thing I expected (or maybe I did expected in a way) is to hear their words used to justify our behaviour.


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#75 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by love4bob View Post




First things are different in times of war, they just are. And second, the law ALLOWS one to shoot and kill someone when their life or property is being threatened.

 



 

that would be like having a burglar break in to your home and get away, then, 10 years later, you track him down across multiple state lines and shoot him dead. that's not justice, that's a vendetta. it makes for a great movie plot line, but it's not the way civilized people run their lives. it makes life a lot simpler that he is dead, and after the disaster that was saddam hussein's "trial" and death, i totally understand why they did it. but it is still a travesty that your country, that prides itself on being the home of democracy and freedom, isn't seriously questioning your leaders on how things turned out. on another note, i find it very interesting that my pakistani family and friends (i happen to have immediate family living in abbottabad where the raid was carried out) are completely nonplussed by the news because they have all assumed he'd already been dead for 5 years at least. bin laden was already pretty much a non-figure... he was very sick, not particularly popular outside of his immediate circle... the death of this one very flawed human soul is hardly going to make a blip on the radar in the long run.
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#76 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 05:57 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure it's been established that bin Laden would not have allowed himself to be taken alive.

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#77 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 06:20 PM
 
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Way to paint us as horribly, horrible people, when those of us who are upset by the celebration are people who do not put more value on one life over another.


 

Nope, you did that yourself. 


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#78 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 06:23 PM
 
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I don't see the logic in what you are saying.  To you our countries laws should only apply to those you choose?  That law is only valid if we decide so at the moment?  I don't get it.
 

Because then what is the point of having laws at all?  Or civilized society for that matter.


 

We're at war...they were in Pakistan where people are routinely stoned for simple crimes. This "man" was killed humanely which is more than I can say for the men, women and children who were burned, crushed or jumped to their deaths in the attacks on 9/11. A swift bullet to the brain was way more than he deserved, but we aren't monsters like them. 


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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

You know...

 

All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

 

I have no regrets at finding this kind of rhetoric to justify abhorrent behavior on the part of the people celebrating disgusting. The last thing I expected (or maybe I did expected in a way) is to hear their words used to justify our behaviour.


Totally agree. Simply can not believe the things I've seen and heard over the last 24 hours.
 

 

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Nope, you did that yourself. 


Why? Because I hold myself to a higher standard than the people who support Bin Laden?

Because I hold those who are against him to a higher standard and call them on it when they fail to meet that standard?


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Why? Because I hold myself to a higher standard than the people who support Bin Laden?

Because I hold those who are against him to a higher standard and call them on it when they fail to meet that standard?


 

I don't know that any of those people even know you to be concerned with what your standard is for them? 


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#82 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 06:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood View Post




 

We're at war...they were in Pakistan where people are routinely stoned for simple crimes. This "man" was killed humanely which is more than I can say for the men, women and children who were burned, crushed or jumped to their deaths in the attacks on 9/11. A swift bullet to the brain was way more than he deserved, but we aren't monsters like them. 



Yes, they were in Pakistan which is an autonomous state fercryingoutloud.  It does not matter if you, or anyone thinks their methods of justice less than stellar...the point is we, as Americans hold ourselves to a higher standard than state-sanctioned assasination within the borders of an unknowing autonomous nation.  It's like extreme rendition but way worse.  And against international law.

 

ETA:  And the "we are at war" thing breaks down here too as we are not at war with Pakistan last I looked.  Do you also justify the bombing of Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war by the same logic?

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Why? Because I hold myself to a higher standard than the people who support Bin Laden?

Because I hold those who are against him to a higher standard and call them on it when they fail to meet that standard?




You aren't the definer of my standards, thank you.

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#84 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 06:41 PM
 
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While I shed no tears for his death, it is difficult to celebrate in light of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens that have been killed by the US military and it's allies in our efforts to bring down Bin Laden. The US has surely been responsible for far more Al Qaeda recruits than Bin Laden and his jihadist cohorts could ever have achieved on their own. We created the violent insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, causing the unnecessary deaths of our own soldiers that were put in a position of instigating more violence than otherwise would have occurred.

I do not celebrate the many freedoms that our nation has sacrificed in the name of our so-called war on terrorism. I do not celebrate the arrogance with which we support the wrong doing of others when it suits our aims and then the misplaced shock that they one day turn their wrath against us.

Our televised celebrations are a testament to our country's moral bankruptcy and depraved indifference to those that suffer from our chosen path.

The death of bin Laden cannot justify a decade of death and destruction at OUR hands.

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You aren't the definer of my standards, thank you.


But I am a definer of the standards I expect of people.

 

If you can feel good about yourself, being just like them, fine. But I have every right to be disgusted by you acting just like they do.

 


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I don't know that any of those people even know you to be concerned with what your standard is for them? 


 

That's not the point.

 

I make no apologies for expecting people to be decent human beings.


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At least Bin Laden/Al Queda had the decency to be honest about their motives. Ours was based on lies like Weapons of Mass Destruction and nonsense like, "we're killing you so you can be free."

 

If he's a monster for killing thousands of innocent people, what does that make us?

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I'm pretty sure it's been established that bin Laden would not have allowed himself to be taken alive.


In fact he used his wife as a shield during the firefight and she ended up losing her life as well.
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post

You know...

 

All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

 

I have no regrets at finding this kind of rhetoric to justify abhorrent behavior on the part of the people celebrating disgusting. The last thing I expected (or maybe I did expected in a way) is to hear their words used to justify our behaviour.

Quote:
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Totally agree. Simply can not believe the things I've seen and heard over the last 24 hours.
 

 

 

yeahthat.gif I don't know why this doesn't register with some people. I don't understand how people don't comprehend the above? It's just really sad all the way around. The whole thing. 
 

 

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#90 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 07:38 PM
 
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Interesting article:  Is it wrong to celebrate bin Laden's death?

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135927693/is-it-wrong-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death?sc=fb&cc=fp


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Refbacks are Off