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#91 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by journeymom View Post


Interesting article:  Is it wrong to celebrate bin Laden's death?

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/02/135927693/is-it-wrong-to-celebrate-bin-ladens-death?sc=fb&cc=fp



This article is fascinating.  It was posted on a family member's facebook page and has stirred a great deal of controversy there as well. 

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#92 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 08:34 PM
 
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I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

 

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

 

 

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#93 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 08:37 PM
 
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I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

 

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

 

 

And Iraq(it's "over" but not over) and Libya(although it's not a war.... right eyesroll.gif) That will be a great day when they ALL come home!

 

 


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#94 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 08:56 PM
 
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While I shed no tears for his death, it is difficult to celebrate in light of the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens that have been killed by the US military and it's allies in our efforts to bring down Bin Laden. The US has surely been responsible for far more Al Qaeda recruits than Bin Laden and his jihadist cohorts could ever have achieved on their own. We created the violent insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, causing the unnecessary deaths of our own soldiers that were put in a position of instigating more violence than otherwise would have occurred.

I do not celebrate the many freedoms that our nation has sacrificed in the name of our so-called war on terrorism. I do not celebrate the arrogance with which we support the wrong doing of others when it suits our aims and then the misplaced shock that they one day turn their wrath against us.

Our televised celebrations are a testament to our country's moral bankruptcy and depraved indifference to those that suffer from our chosen path.

The death of bin Laden cannot justify a decade of death and destruction at OUR hands.

 

That is well-said.

 

 

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All of this "Our lives should be worth more than theirs", "they are the bad guys", and "either you celebrate the death of the bad guys or you are one of them" BS is the same BS they use on their followers to justify their actions.

 


I don't believe any of that; I just believe it's okay to celebrate that someone can no longer do harm... people would be cheering as loudly if he'd merely been captured, imprisoned, etc.


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#95 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 08:59 PM
 
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If you can't tell the difference between cheering an act of terrorism where over 3000 people died, then there is nothing more for me to say.

 


 

Yes.

 

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.

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#96 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 09:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post




 

Yes.

 

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.


Well I seriously don't get how people find moral justification in death, period.

 

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#97 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 09:41 PM
 
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First, if anyone wants to compare dates (Hitler's day of death, or whatever) how about hitting a little closer to home people!

 

May 1, 2003 is when GWBush declared "Mission Accomplished".  May 1, 2011 is when Obama did not declare "Mission Accomplished" but could arguably be said to have accomplished something.
 

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Originally Posted by mooshersmama View Post

I'm pretty sure it's been established that bin Laden would not have allowed himself to be taken alive.



ITA with this.  I have felt torn by my positive feelings of relief at the death of any individual, but I have had the feelings.  I am adamently opposed to the death penalty and yet, I can see how there were not a lot of other options.  It's not as if his capture hasn't been a stated goal for, what, 20+ years.

 

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I am not dancing in the streets because Osama was killed.  It had to be done, I agree, and he wasn't going to surrender.  But I don't feel joyful at someone being shot.  Maybe a sense of relief is how I would describe my feelings upon hearing that OBL had been killed.

 

Now, if the war in Afghanistan were declared over .... then I'd be dancing in the streets!

 



I think a lot of the jubulation could be viewed as a cathartic event after a lot time (for some, almost a lifetime) of stress.  People have focused that anxiety, that terror if you will, on one person.  Once he was removed, you're going to see a lot of unthinking exuberance.  I try to not judge too harshly, hopefullly though, people will reconsider their reactions as time goes on.
 

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I don't believe any of that; I just believe it's okay to celebrate that someone can no longer do harm... people would be cheering as loudly if he'd merely been captured, imprisoned, etc.


 

I like to think that as well.  bin Laden has been portrayed as the Boogie Man for long enough that, of course, people are going to celebrate an increased feeling of safety.  Real or simply percieved, it's definately an emotional time.
 

 


 

 

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#98 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 09:58 PM
 
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Well I seriously don't get how people find moral justification in death, period.

 


 

That is probably the entire basis of our miscommunication.


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#99 of 412 Old 05-02-2011, 10:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

 

Yes.

 

There is a difference between cheering the deaths of innocents and cheering the death of a man who killed innocents. The difference is whether there is moral justification for the cheering and the death. I seriously do not understand how people cannot get that difference.



So... You won't be the least bit upset when people, say, cheer the death of GW Bush when it happens?

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#100 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 03:25 AM
 
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So... You won't be the least bit upset when people, say, cheer the death of GW Bush when it happens?


It would have been quite satisfying to see back-to-back trials at The Hague for crimes against humanity.

Rather than jubilant, this should be a somber occasion to reflect on the death and destruction that we perpetrated across the globe in the name of justice. Bin Laden was not found due to our "success" in slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocents in Iraq. Bin Laden was not found due to a decade of instability and destruction in Afghanistan. He was found through an amazing pursuit of intelligence gathering that surely could have succeeded just the same without our acts of war. When is our nation going to come to terms with what we have done over the past decade? None of it can be justified by Bin Laden's death. I just cannot understand what people are celebrating. Yes, he was a monster for killing 3000 innocent people. But what are we?

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#101 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 05:01 AM
 
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I don't think our hands are anywhere near as bloody when it comes to this matter as bin Laden's are. We can appreciate our role in this awful situation, while still celebrating that he is no longer at large. If you create a monster, isn't it your duty to neutralize it?

 

 

Quote:
So... You won't be the least bit upset when people, say, cheer the death of GW Bush when it happens?

 

You think that GW Bush, who cost lives due to mismanagement and incompetence, is the same as bin Laden, who deliberately killed innocent people to spread terror? I'm sorry but if you can't understand how and why these two people are not comparable in this regard, it's like someone said earlier that we're really quite done here. We're not going to be able to connect if you cannot see the difference between them, because I think there is a huge difference, not that I'm a fan of Dubya.

 

In any case, if people cheer his death, no, it won't phase me. They have the right to respond how they choose.


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#102 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 05:46 AM
 
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You think the Iraqi people who lost families as we "shocked and awed" them for weapons for  mass destruction (that we KNEW did not exist) and then continued to kill them to "free them" feel any differently about GWB or *us* than people here feel about Osama Bin Laden??

 

Cheering his capture is not the same as cheering his death. He's dead. He may have been a monster, but he was a human being. One of us. He leaves a family behind.

 

If you can "other" him to the point where you can't see his humanity how the heck is tha any different than what he did? I'm not weeping for him. I'm relieved he's gone, but dancing in the streets and fist pumping? That's vile.

 

This guy in the Christian Science Monitor says it well:

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2011/0502/Celebrating-Osama-bin-Laden-s-death-is-anti-American-and-not-very-biblical 

 

There is something deeply wrong with this picture. By celebrating death, even of someone as evil as bin Laden, we let our worst impulses trump what Abraham Lincoln called “the better angels of our nature.” We look petty, juvenile, and small. And we should all be worried about that .

 

.

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#103 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 07:22 AM
 
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No, I don't think that anymore than I appreciate having such worrds put in my mouth. Bush's actions were deplorable, but he was not a terrorist. The loss of innocent life was a result not of malicious intent, but incompetence and mismanagement. A difference in intent doesn't bring dead people back to life, but it can make a difference in a court of law when responsibility and fitting punishment are being determined. Bush is not equal to Osama, and as much as I disapprove of Bush, I think you are making an inappropriately black and white comparison.


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#104 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm asking a question.

 

There is no court case here. You think the blood on our hands is somehow justified. I disagree.

 

I don't think Osama and Bush are equals. But when you're comparing killing innocents to killing innocents, I think it's pretty short sighted to say, "Well, what we did was different."

 

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#105 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 08:20 AM
 
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No, I don't think that anymore than I appreciate having such worrds put in my mouth. Bush's actions were deplorable, but he was not a terrorist. The loss of innocent life was a result not of malicious intent, but incompetence and mismanagement. A difference in intent doesn't bring dead people back to life, but it can make a difference in a court of law when responsibility and fitting punishment are being determined. Bush is not equal to Osama, and as much as I disapprove of Bush, I think you are making an inappropriately black and white comparison.


Your point may be valid but it's the assumption that's under question. Many people believe that Bush's actions were not merely incompetence or mismanagement, but purposeful acts. To those people, Bush is a terrorist.


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#106 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 08:21 AM
 
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No, I don't think that anymore than I appreciate having such worrds put in my mouth. Bush's actions were deplorable, but he was not a terrorist. The loss of innocent life was a result not of malicious intent, but incompetence and mismanagement. A difference in intent doesn't bring dead people back to life, but it can make a difference in a court of law when responsibility and fitting punishment are being determined. Bush is not equal to Osama, and as much as I disapprove of Bush, I think you are making an inappropriately black and white comparison.


Yes, I think this is where we part ways. There was, IMHO, just as much intent in Bush's invasion of Iraq. There was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction nor an imminent threat of attack. Bush and family fully intended the heartless destruction, destabilization and murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens and lied to the world to gain permission to do so. Mismanagement was just icing on the cake. The evidence of torture, approved by the Bush Administration, was well outside international law and were otherwise crimes against humanity. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield should be put before The Hague to answer for their sins. Instead, they wrapped themselves up in an American flag and got away with mass murder.
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

No, I don't think that anymore than I appreciate having such worrds put in my mouth. Bush's actions were deplorable, but he was not a terrorist. The loss of innocent life was a result not of malicious intent, but incompetence and mismanagement. A difference in intent doesn't bring dead people back to life, but it can make a difference in a court of law when responsibility and fitting punishment are being determined. Bush is not equal to Osama, and as much as I disapprove of Bush, I think you are making an inappropriately black and white comparison.

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Your point may be valid but it's the assumption that's under question. Many people believe that Bush's actions were not merely incompetence or mismanagement, but purposeful acts. To those people, Bush is a terrorist.

Laohaire you make a good point. Moonfirefaery - How do you or anyone else personally know what Bush's intentions were? How would you personally know he didn't maliciously intend it? I really don't know that. The answer is: you really can't know either. You need evidence to make this conclusion.


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Yes, I think this is where we part ways. There was, IMHO, just as much intent in Bush's invasion of Iraq. There was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction nor an imminent threat of attack. Bush and family fully intended the heartless destruction, destabilization and murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens and lied to the world to gain permission to do so. Mismanagement was just icing on the cake. The evidence of torture, approved by the Bush Administration, was well outside international law and were otherwise crimes against humanity. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield should be put before The Hague to answer for their sins. Instead, they wrapped themselves up in an American flag and got away with mass murder.

Yup. The evidence or lack of evidence in terms of weapons of mass destruction points to some other intent on Bush's part. Hmmm... lying certainly did happen. I agree with everything here. It's disturbing - the lack of accountability we hold our leaders to.
 

 

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#108 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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monkey's mom, We'll have to agree to disagree, as we'll probably never agree on whether what we did was different or justified.

 

laohaire, I have my suspicions about Bush's intent, but until they are proven I will not acknowledge that he holds a candle to Osama. I don't think his intent was as cold-blooded. I suspect that it was. But there must be proof.

 

MamaofLiam, no one but Bush knows his intent, but I have the right to observe him and his actions and then believe what I like about the intent behind them. Lying most certainly did happen, or rather exaggerating the 30% of evidence that he had WMDs while hiding the 70% of intelligence stating he probably didn't. As to the rest, I'll need proof before I can consider someone a terrorist worthy of the same fate as Osama. Yes, the accountability IS disturbing, especially when we are punishing Bradley Manning instead of the corrupt administration he exposed.


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I think we, as a people--as a nation, absolutely ought to decide what kind of behavior we expect from ourselves.

 

Take that kid who shot up Virginia Tech....if crowds of people had gathered around his body at the scene and spit on him, kicked him, pointed and sang "hey hey hey good-bye," and danced on the quad, would we think that was appropriate? Would we not have expected the authorities to step in and say, "Hey, we don't do that." We might understand that people were freaked out of their minds and reacted badly in the moment, but we don't condone that.

 

Do we drag bodies down the streets? Do we hang people in town squares and cheer as the rope snaps their necks?

 

There are social mores--cultural norms--that we collectively come up with for what constitutes decent behavior. I think dancing in the streets and singing songs that we sing at victorious sporting events about the death of Osama Bin Laden has struck one of those grey areas for us. Of course people have a right to do it. Just like those infamous men who danced and cheered in Lafayette Park or wherever it was on 9/11. It doesn't make it any less distasteful or embarrassing.

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Um, wow...

 

I an neither a terrorist, nor a supporter of terrorists.

 

I an not cheering either. For no other reason than I feel that cheering a death is wrong.

yeah this...I was SHOCKED to wake up to dh showing me the news where it looked like people were celebrating a super bowl win or something...It was really off putting and bizarre to me... Nothing has changed, Al Qaeda is still functioning, we still have troops fighting a "war" that can't be "won" and I see college kids jumping into a river like morons...I'm not sad he is dead but there is a middle ground and I think partying like it's new years eve is messed up...just me.
 

 

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laohaire, I have my suspicions about Bush's intent, but until they are proven I will not acknowledge that he holds a candle to Osama. I don't think his intent was as cold-blooded. I suspect that it was. But there must be proof.


That's ok, I'm not out to convince anyone of Bush's intents or lack thereof. Just pointing out that this is the crux of the difference of opinion.


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#112 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 09:45 AM
 
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I'm not embarrassed about it... We've been at war for so long, and we will be for years to come...and then there will be more wars. But we have made an accomplishment; a feared murderer can no longer do murder.. and I don't bedgrudge anyone their fleeting happiness at the news.


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#113 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 10:23 AM
 
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Not to get into a debate about the Iraq war, but Bill Clinton said there were WMDs in Iraq when he was president. When Bush 43 took over, he was using the same intel Clinton was. How is one man lying and the other was misinformed? Also, there were weapons found- not what they expected, but there were some found. In addition, I am still convinced that Saddam got rid of many of them- hid them in sand, sold them, etc. I mean NATO only told him about 100 times they were coming to investigate. The man is not stupid. not to mention, we did get rid of Saddam in Iraq. This is a man who experimented on his own people with biological weapons. Is this not reason enough? Where do we draw the line? And Bush never said we would "safe" he said we would be "safer." And you have to put it into the context- this was 9 years ago when all of this was still fresh. Hindsight is always 20/20.  (and I am not a huge Bush fan or anything, Actually, I am pretty down on politicians of all parties these days).

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mar123, I could be wrong but it was my understanding that most intel suggested he did have WMDs at that time, but that they were moved before the Iraq War erupted. I am, however, glad we got rid of Saddam; I disapprove of the methods used and the exaggerations that led our Congress to approve them.


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Not to get into a debate about the Iraq war, but Bill Clinton said there were WMDs in Iraq when he was president. When Bush 43 took over, he was using the same intel Clinton was. How is one man lying and the other was misinformed? Also, there were weapons found- not what they expected, but there were some found. In addition, I am still convinced that Saddam got rid of many of them- hid them in sand, sold them, etc. I mean NATO only told him about 100 times they were coming to investigate. The man is not stupid. not to mention, we did get rid of Saddam in Iraq. This is a man who experimented on his own people with biological weapons. Is this not reason enough? Where do we draw the line? And Bush never said we would "safe" he said we would be "safer." And you have to put it into the context- this was 9 years ago when all of this was still fresh. Hindsight is always 20/20.  (and I am not a huge Bush fan or anything, Actually, I am pretty down on politicians of all parties these days).

Clinton also had the opportunity to capture or kill OBL during his presidency, but didn't. You can not blame all of the middle east problems on Bush. It goes back many presidents before, probably starting around Raegan.... or maybe even Nixon since he is the one who started the whole supporting Israel no matter what business.

 

I do not agree with the conflicts we are currently in because it was not our place to dispose autonomous leaders of other nations(even though Saddam was a very evil man, possibly even more so than Bin Laden was), but it WAS our place to hunt down Bin Laden and Al-Qeda. It is possible to support one and not the other. Just because we have done some things that were wrong does not mean that we are wrong for doing what needed to be done in the case of Bin Laden.

 


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#116 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 11:36 AM
 
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mar123, I could be wrong but it was my understanding that most intel suggested he did have WMDs at that time, but that they were moved before the Iraq War erupted. I am, however, glad we got rid of Saddam; I disapprove of the methods used and the exaggerations that led our Congress to approve them.



Yes, I believe the initial intel did show that he had them, plus he was being sneaking and evading, and not allowing the UN to investigate which led to even more suspicion. Hindsight is definitely 20/20. I don't think that at the time he had a good decision to make, it was either he did have them and might use them against us or our allies, and we could go in and find out or wait it out and find out if he was going to use them. Both options have the possibility of a terrible outcome.


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#117 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 11:54 AM
 
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 as we'll probably never agree on whether what we did was different or justified.

 

 

The mass murder of innocent people is never justified.


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#118 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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New information revealing that he was not, in fact, armed or using his wife as a shield. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8489658/Osama-bin-Laden-was-not-armed-and-did-not-use-wife-as-human-shield.html

 

 

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#119 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 11:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mar123 View Post

Not to get into a debate about the Iraq war, but Bill Clinton said there were WMDs in Iraq when he was president. When Bush 43 took over, he was using the same intel Clinton was. How is one man lying and the other was misinformed? Also, there were weapons found- not what they expected, but there were some found. In addition, I am still convinced that Saddam got rid of many of them- hid them in sand, sold them, etc. I mean NATO only told him about 100 times they were coming to investigate. The man is not stupid. not to mention, we did get rid of Saddam in Iraq. This is a man who experimented on his own people with biological weapons. Is this not reason enough? Where do we draw the line? And Bush never said we would "safe" he said we would be "safer." And you have to put it into the context- this was 9 years ago when all of this was still fresh. Hindsight is always 20/20.  (and I am not a huge Bush fan or anything, Actually, I am pretty down on politicians of all parties these days).

 

Bush was told by the people who gave the US the information that it had been falsified before he even sent troops to Iraq. 
 

 

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#120 of 412 Old 05-03-2011, 12:01 PM
 
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I also think it is easy to say what we would/would not do if we were in charge or what should/should not have happened, but until you are actually in that position I don't think that anyone can really say... as Obama is finding out with his presidency. He said a lot about the wars while campaigning, but I think he is finding the reality a lot different.


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