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#181 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Indeed. There will be backlash.  It will be deserved. 

 

It did not have to happen the way it did.

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#182 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 08:48 AM
 
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It didn't have to happen like it did, but any other way there would still have been backlash. And any other way would have had other drawbacks as well. Everyone has their own opinion, but the leaders of the world--with the exception of terrorists--so far are not calling it unlawful. I hope you're talking about backlash in the form of critique of our actions from the rest of the world, rather than violent backlash; because if it's the latter, I find the comment absolutely disgusting, borderline suggesting that the innocents who died on 9/11 deserved it over their government's actions in the Middle East.


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#183 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 08:55 AM
 
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It didn't have to happen like it did, but any other way there would still have been backlash. And any other way would have had other drawbacks as well. Everyone has their own opinion, but the leaders of the world--with the exception of terrorists--so far are not calling it unlawful. I hope you're talking about backlash in the form of critique of our actions from the rest of the world, rather than violent backlash; because if it's the latter, I find the comment absolutely disgusting, borderline suggesting that the innocents who died on 9/11 deserved it over their government's actions in the Middle East.

I think it is a fair cry from suggesting people deserved to be killed on 9-11 to acknowledging that it was American actions that directly led to the event.  One is madness and the other is history.
 

 

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#184 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:05 AM
 
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My (mostly unorganized) thoughts:

 

Does this remind anyone else of Voldemort? I mean, the way people are celebrating would make it seem like OBL=all evil in the world, and his death means no more evil. 

 

My cousin is supposed to be going on a (pre-scheduled) school trip to DC this week. I don't think it's wise, and I also don't think it's wise for people to be celebrating as if this is the end of all evil. I mean if al-qaeda is "the enemy" we should keep in mind that it exists for a reason, and that reason is based off of (real or perceived) oppression and injustice. They're not going to go away just because a figurehead dies. The "war" in the middle east didn't end just because Bush's presidency did--(though that might not be a good example). 

 

AND, if people are upset about his assassination(and i'm sure there are people who are upset, whether it's the loss of a leader or the burial issue or whatever other reason) it's to be expected that they will do something about it. Especially if they have the same capabilities that we assume OBL had. It's not like he was alone in whatever he may or may not have done.

 

I'm waiting for the next bin laden video to be released. Not that I really care, but I'm among those who don't really think he's dead --- but even if he is dead, I don't think it matters, because it's not a man who "we" were ever fighting. It isn't as tangible as that.

 

I don't support terrorism of any kind, but at the same time, I've been in agreement with PPs who've spoken to the effect of not really knowing who "the terrorists" are. Is it "ok" to use terrorism against perceived terrorists? is it "ok" to "fight back" if you don't have an established country supporting you? is it "ok" to kill unarmed civilian men, women, and children?(both "sides" have/do)

 

Is anyone else here uncomfortable with the fact that a big country can battle against a smaller, seemingly less organized, group of people, and have it be called a "war" but that less structured battle (9/11 definitely qualifies) is considered an act of terrorism? I think it's interesting, that even our terminology is "unfair" but whatever makes "you" feel better about yourself, I guess.

 

and the term "shock and awe" still hits me wrong. I didn't know why before, but this thread has made me realize that "shock and awe" is the exact goal of "terrorism" 

 

 

In this, I'm not on either "side." I'm a Muslim living in the US, and NEITHER "side" is fighting for anything that I value(though both "sides" seem to think they are). My government has made me uncomfortable with being Muslim in my society. I fear what might happen to me or my family if it gets worse. I feel much more comfortable living in abroad, and we will most likely move out of the states when we get a chance.

 

"side" is in quotations because this is way more complicated than good and evil or black and white or what have you.

 

re: the hating freedom thing, I actually feel more freedom here, in Pakistan, than I do in the United States. I can speak my mind here(in my own home) without fear of the government. That isn't something that I'm comfortable doing at home. 

 

I also think that it's interesting that the house that he was in is being called a compound. It was just a house, no?

 

Thats pretty much all I have though, I think. I'm honestly not too interested in this, and I don't feel like me knowing about it further does any good.

 

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#185 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:14 AM
 
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I was wondering about the "compound" thing, too. I guess there were multiple buildings on the property, at least from the drawing I saw of it. From the outside, it doesn't look any different than a house I'd see on my street here in Tijuana, Mexico, though. My house is one of the few that doesn't have high walls restricting the view on to the property, many have barbed wire at the top, all have gates that need to open to allow cars to pass on to the property, many have small out buildings (usually storage/laundry rooms or small studios). It certainly didn't look like the "mansion" the media are reporting it as. I saw some footage supposedly shot inside after the raid, and it didn't look extravagant. I'm not sure what the standard of living is in that part of Pakistan, but it didn't look much different than my large but otherwise average Mexican house.
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#186 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:22 AM
 
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And, I looked up the whole compound/house thing, (this article: http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0511/conspicuous_hideout_06b3f495-0776-4b39-9fcc-dff067688b1c.html ) and honestly, most of the description of the place reminds me of a lot of the houses around here(pakistan). We live in a normal, 2-story, 2-family house. There is a super rich house in the neighborhood, they once had a wedding in the family, and invited everyone in the town. The house across the street from us is pretty big, there is an empty plot of land nextdoor to that (directly across the street from us) and there is is a way more simple, tiny, unfinished looking 1-story house next to that. Right next door to that, a humongous 2 story house is being built, and the house+yard will take up 3 plots of land. Our PARKS -- the places where kids are supposed to(and do) play are surrounded by barbed wire. If there is any yard or driveway in the house at all(the normal/rich/newer houses all have some form of this) there is going to be a 12ish(haven't measured, lol) foot wall surrounding it. All of the houses have some form of "barrier" preventing people from jumping the wall, whether it is barbed wire, spikes, or glass shards and broken bottles that have been embedded in the concrete covered walls. The inside of our house has got to be 4 times larger than the small one across the street from us, and there are way bigger houses around too. Most of the richer people, or those with nicer houses, hire guards to protect their house, and they stand outside the gate with huge guns over their shoulder. EVERYONE burns garbage around here. It's either that, or throw it in an empty lot somewhere. Many places don't have trash pickup, and even in places that do, people don't actually use it (they burn their own garbage, instead of having someone else do it) Some rich person in our town paid to give all of the residents trash cans for garbage collection so they would actually take advantage of the collection. He got mad when he found out that some people were using the cans to store (non-garbage) things in. Oh, and people don't put ANYTHING outside. not mail, not trash. If you have a letter, the mail person rings your doorbell. There isn't a mailbox. If you have garbage, and you're actually going to use the trash collection, you keep it in the house until they come and ring your doorbell to tell you they're here to get your trash.

 

My point is, most of the description just sounds normal.... except the $1mil.... thats a crazy amount of money, especially here, but people that have it will definitely use it.(and some people do have that kind of money, especially if they have family working overseas.)

 

 


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#187 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It didn't have to happen like it did, but any other way there would still have been backlash. And any other way would have had other drawbacks as well. Everyone has their own opinion, but the leaders of the world--with the exception of terrorists--so far are not calling it unlawful. I hope you're talking about backlash in the form of critique of our actions from the rest of the world, rather than violent backlash; because if it's the latter, I find the comment absolutely disgusting, borderline suggesting that the innocents who died on 9/11 deserved it over their government's actions in the Middle East.


I was speaking in terms of political fallout and international criticism. My mind doesn't ever go to people deserving violence which, really, is the whole point of everything that has been said here.  

 

The biggest question for me is whether the SEALS were ordered to kill him, or whether one of them made a bad decision in the heat of the moment.  I want that answered. 

 

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#188 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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Amatullah - yeah, I think to people only used to living in a suburban US neighborhood, that house would look weird - but it wouldn't be out of place here. There's been a lot of talk about how the neighbors should have been suspicious - but that place being built on my block wouldn't have phased me. Having a house here that allows people to walk up to the front door without being allowed on the property is seen as crazy and dangerous. We don't have a 12 foot wall, but we do have a huge wrought iron fence, with spikes at some points (although my 10 year old can scale the fence without getting hurt, so I doubt it would keep a determined criminal out!). And, yeah, parks and playgrounds have barbed wire.
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#189 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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Thao - My opinions are based on the facts that I have become aware of through my research, not assumptions.


I'm wondering what sort of facts you've found that you can confidently say that all of the people celebrating the 9/11 attacks were motivated by (hate? vengeance?) and not any desire to better the lives of their people? headscratch.gif

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The biggest question for me is whether the SEALS were ordered to kill him, or whether one of them made a bad decision in the heat of the moment.  I want that answered. 

 


Yes. Some sort of introspection and analysis on whether or not we violated the law and how the raid went down and why we thought he was armed....oh wait....no, he wasn't.

 

I mean, really. Does no one care about OUR part in any of this?

 

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#191 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Indeed.  I realize that it can't bring him back to life, but I do think that everyone has a right to know whether this was an assassination or if something went out of control.  I heard a blip on a news story that only three people were in the room when he was killed, but it is also my understanding that there are cameras in the helmets- I would much rather THAT footage be made public knowledge than some gory photo of a dead man.  I want to understand why the decision was made to kill him in that moment. 

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#192 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 10:01 AM
 
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Was it a bad decision? The goal was to take him alive or dead, without injuring any of our men. In the heat of the moment, during a gunfight, when your enemy reaches for something, it is not unreasonable to assume he is reaching for a gun and to shoot him before he can get it. When you know your enemy approves of suicide bombing, it is not unreasonable to suspect he may be wearing a device that he could detonate, killing himself and you in the explosion. When you know your enemy is remarkably evasive and your goal is to capture him dead or alive, if you have any indication that he may get away, it is not unreasonable to take the dead option. A woman rushed our men; we didn't know if she was had a weapon of some kind on her (a knife, gun, explosive device). She could have given Osama the window he needed to get away. Osama could have had a knife, gun, or more likely an explosive device on. Our troops could have no way of knowing what was beneath his clothing. I don't blame them for limiting the risks to their lives by not allowing him anywhere near their bodies until after he was no longer alive.

 

Thao -  As I've said, I don't consider the people of the world to be naive enough to think that killing 3000 Americans will improve the lives of anyone, as history as shown what inevitably follows an attack of America. That is my opinion. If you think they were all cheering thinking "Yes, we've attacked America, and now our lives will be better!" then I would like to see what facts you have to back that up, too. Attacking America has never made anyone's life better throughout history.


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#193 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 10:03 AM
 
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I was speaking in terms of political fallout and international criticism. My mind doesn't ever go to people deserving violence which, really, is the whole point of everything that has been said here.  

 

The biggest question for me is whether the SEALS were ordered to kill him, or whether one of them made a bad decision in the heat of the moment.  I want that answered. 

 


Fair enough.

 

Yes, I'd like to know what the exact orders were. I'd like to know what the motive of the man who fired the shot was. Did he suspect Osama was an armed threat? Did he think Osama had a good chance of escaping during the confrontation? We can't know what's on a man's person unless we search him, and searching him while he's alive can result in death to the man doing the searching if Osama is indeed armed especially with explosives. He wasn't...but that doesn't men our young men acted wrongly. Their lives were at stake, too.


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#194 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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insidevoice, when you heard "three people," do you know if they were talking about three SEALS, three members of the Bin Laden family, or three total? I'm interested because supposedly Bin Laden's wife was in the room, and his 12 year old daughter claims that she was witness to the shooting (and incidentally, that he was in custody before being shot, though I know we can't take her word for it as absolute truth). I'm just wondering if the three people being referred to were OBL, his wife, and daughter.

And, yeah, I want to know what the orders were. Were they kill on sight? Were they "bring him in alive if you *can*", wink, wink, wink. . .Or did they really want him alive if possible? Was the SEAL who shot him, or any of the other soldiers, or any of the civilians in immediate danger if they didn't shoot to kill? Did the SEAL react in a moment of panic? (and honestly, I can't say I'd blame him if he saw something that scared him and he fired - I just want to know). I doubt we'll ever see unedited footage from those cameras, though - we're supposed to take on face value that everything that the military and the government says about the operation is true.
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#195 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 10:09 AM
 
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Amatullah - Yes, this whole thing has reminded me of Voldemort and Harry Potter; I didn't want to be the first to bring it up though. I didn't want people to think I didn't take it seriously or something. OBL is a real-life Voldemort; al Qaeda are real life Death Eaters. I see the parrallels. But even in the book, they acknowledge that there have been and always will be other evils. Even the people celebrating know that this is not the end...but to many, maybe not to all, it is still an accomplishment worth noting. Also in the books, Death Eaters functioned without their leader, but were not as coordinated, organized, and united without him. When your leader binds you together as a group with his charisma and ideals, and then you lose him, the group is left vulnerable unless another leader can step up and be just as strong. That doesn't always happen. Evil will always find someone to rally behind, but we shouldn't stop trying to fight back against those tyrant leaders as if there's no point.

 

About fighting fire with fire... I think sometimes, you're obligated to. Obama's obligation first and foremost is to safeguard his people, Americans. And I wouldn't be surprised if they have prepared videos to release after his death; they've probably planned ahead.

 


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#196 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 10:13 AM
 
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eclipse, I agree... even if it was a bad decision in a moment of panic, how can you blame him? I can't even imagine what a situation like that must be like, what it must feel like, how your heart must pound, how alert you'd have to be. Even if they weren't in immediate danger, they had very good reason to believe they were. They were about to kill a man who has no qualms about killing himself to take others out. He could have had anything on his person. I think they just wanted to complete the mission and come home alive. Yes we should question their motives and want to know what happened, but I think we need to remember the unique pressures these men were facing, the dire jeopardy their lives were in when we are assessing their actions.


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Amatullah - Yes, this whole thing has reminded me of Voldemort and Harry Potter; I didn't want to be the first to bring it up though. I didn't want people to think I didn't take it seriously or something. OBL is a real-life Voldemort; al Qaeda are real life Death Eaters. I see the parrallels. But even in the book, they acknowledge that there have been and always will be other evils. Even the people celebrating know that this is not the end...but to many, maybe not to all, it is still an accomplishment worth noting. Also in the books, Death Eaters functioned without their leader, but were not as coordinated, organized, and united without him. When your leader binds you together as a group with his charisma and ideals, and then you lose him, the group is left vulnerable unless another leader can step up and be just as strong. That doesn't always happen. Evil will always find someone to rally behind, but we shouldn't stop trying to fight back against those tyrant leaders as if there's no point.

 

About fighting fire with fire... I think sometimes, you're obligated to. Obama's obligation first and foremost is to safeguard his people, Americans. And I wouldn't be surprised if they have prepared videos to release after his death; they've probably planned ahead.

 

hmm totally off topic but I find very little in common with harry potter and OBL...now HP and the nazis, I could wax on and on about that. "Show us your papers!"
 

 

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This article is very interesting about those who are celebrating the death; once I thought about it, I realized that most of the people truly jubiliant are young people and the article brought up some interesting points.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/04/bin.laden.911.generation.react/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

 

 

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This article is very interesting about those who are celebrating the death; once I thought about it, I realized that most of the people truly jubiliant are young people and the article brought up some interesting points.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/04/bin.laden.911.generation.react/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

 

 


very interesting! thank you for posting...I was 14 at the time, we weren't sheltered, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of what the articcle says but I am typing one handed because dd is sleeping on my other arm so I can't write a novel about it now.

 

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This article is very interesting about those who are celebrating the death; once I thought about it, I realized that most of the people truly jubiliant are young people and the article brought up some interesting points.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/04/bin.laden.911.generation.react/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

 

 


Young college students tend to go overboard crazy about everything... the world should really not base what America is about on our college students! You didn't see any soldiers(deployed or otherwise) rejoicing in celebration, and the are the ones most directly effected by this.

 


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Indeed. There will be backlash.  It will be deserved

 

It did not have to happen the way it did.



How disgusting.

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#202 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 11:25 AM
 
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How disgusting.


insidevoice made it clear that she was not talking about violent backlash, but political backlash a few posts down thread from this quote.

Anyhow, the WH has just announced that they won't be releasing photos of his body.
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Ldavis24 - HP is definitely most comparable to the Nazis, but I think there are some parrallels here as well. In HP and with AQ you have an organization that hates everyone who is not like them, led by a terrorist leader, that keeps the world in fear for decades. It's not as close a comparison as with the Nazis but I do think it's there.

 

And I agree that the young people are celebrating the most, and I understand why. Some were children when 911 happened; they grew up seeing this man's face on TV, knowing he was the world's most wanted and feared terrorist, knowing that he killed 3000 people and remained at large. For those of you who are 30, 40, 50, ten years is just that: a decade...but for people who have only lived two decades, or even one, this manhunt is an era that has taken up almost half of our lives, or more. For it to end is a huge deal.


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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

Ldavis24 - HP is definitely most comparable to the Nazis, but I think there are some parrallels here as well. In HP and with AQ you have an organization that hates everyone who is not like them, led by a terrorist leader, that keeps the world in fear for decades. It's not as close a comparison as with the Nazis but I do think it's there.

 

And I agree that the young people are celebrating the most, and I understand why. Some were children when 911 happened; they grew up seeing this man's face on TV, knowing he was the world's most wanted and feared terrorist, knowing that he killed 3000 people and remained at large. For those of you who are 30, 40, 50, ten years is just that: a decade...but for people who have only lived two decades, or even one, this manhunt is an era that has taken up almost half of our lives, or more. For it to end is a huge deal.



well for that matter we could compare it to any organization that hates those unlike them..

 

I am a mere 25 years old and I don't like being lumped in with your generalization about our generation. it is NOT the end of anything. it is the death of a single man, I think you are inflating the impact this will have tremendously.

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#205 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 11:42 AM
 
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And, I guess as an older person, it's a "huge deal" to watch our people behave in ways we have historically condenmed. It seems like moral depravity. To be met with, "Eh...I'm fine with it," is quite shocking.

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#206 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 12:07 PM
 
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Is anyone else here uncomfortable with the fact that a big country can battle against a smaller, seemingly less organized, group of people, and have it be called a "war" but that less structured battle (9/11 definitely qualifies) is considered an act of terrorism? I think it's interesting, that even our terminology is "unfair" but whatever makes "you" feel better about yourself, I guess.

 

 

 

Good point. 


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#207 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post

And, I guess as an older person, it's a "huge deal" to watch our people behave in ways we have historically condenmed. It seems like moral depravity. To be met with, "Eh...I'm fine with it," is quite shocking.



ugh I feel like I have to defend those of us young people who are NOT ok with the way people were acting. I was pretty disgusted frankly.

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#208 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 12:16 PM
 
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no, mama.....i know. hug2.gif

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#209 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 12:25 PM
 
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I said "this manhunt is an era" and thus was referring only to the end of the man hunt. It's not the end of everything, but it is the end of the man hunt, which is all I called it. If you are 25, then this manhunt HAS spanned almost half of your life, just as it has mine. That was the only generalization I made, and it is a true one--unless a decade is no longer close to half of 25. I'm not inflating the impact it will have; my last sentence: "For it to end is a huge deal" was an expression of my opinion only, and given the news reports of so many youths celebrating way more loudly than I, I'm not the only one who holds that opinion by far. That's the point that I was attempting to make. No one here is saying that all youth are celebrating, but per the news reports the people making the grossest display of their celebration are young. I identify with their reaction, and I explained why.

 

I disagree that we have historically condemned celebrating the death of murderers and threats to our national security. My nonchalance about the celebration is as shocking to you as your shock and indignation about it is to me. We condemn celebrating the death of innocents. I haven't seen any historical precedence that condemns the celebration of the death of tyrants as undignified.


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#210 of 412 Old 05-04-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

I said "this manhunt is an era" and thus was referring only to the end of the man hunt. It's not the end of everything, but it is the end of the man hunt, which is all I called it. If you are 25, then this manhunt HAS spanned almost half of your life, just as it has mine. That was the only generalization I made, and it is a true one--unless a decade is no longer close to half of 25. I'm not inflating the impact it will have; my last sentence: "For it to end is a huge deal" was an expression of my opinion only, and given the news reports of so many youths celebrating way more loudly than I, I'm not the only one who holds that opinion by far. That's the point that I was attempting to make. No one here is saying that all youth are celebrating, but per the news reports the people making the grossest display of their celebration are young. I identify with their reaction, and I explained why.

 

I disagree that we have historically condemned celebrating the death of murderers and threats to our national security. My nonchalance about the celebration is as shocking to you as your shock and indignation about it is to me. We condemn celebrating the death of innocents. I haven't seen any historical precedence that condemns the celebration of the death of tyrants as undignified.

"tyrant" and there in lies the point where I know we will never agree about the topic at hand...ah well..I'm off to go talk about peeing showers!
 

 

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