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#61 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 11:36 AM
 
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I'm with monkey. It just doesn't add up. Something about the official story is not quite right. And maybe they just don't know what happened because of the unprecedented nature of the attack and collapses. But something just rings false, and I don't know how big or small it is. If we know the truth it may be too small to make a difference. And if it's big, wouldn't that rock our society? :/


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#62 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....

 

I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?


There are mulitple goals for me in these discussions listed in no particular order:

 

One is discussing in a democratic forum the virutes and values of mainstream media and educating ourselves and others on media awareness, and how concepts of truth can be formed from utter fiction.

 

Two is bringing to light evidence that undermines the trust we have in Big government, especially governments that serve big busines rather than the common man, as ours does. 

 

Three is engaging in intellectual discussion and exercising my brain.

 

Four is exapnding my base of knowledge and learning from others to share ideas with my co-workers and students.

 

Five is shaping the truth of the events in my head.  I find it easier to forgive a wrong doing when I am aware of the truth.  I find the lies to be the biggest offense here.  I want the truth because for me there is no justice without truth.  My friends who passed away that day, and my friends who suffer still from trauma and stress and the fear and anxiety that has since ruled their lives, my family and friends who worked ground zero and suffered physically and emotionall as a result...none of that will ever be okay with me so long as the truth is hidden...so if I can find some truth, I might be able to find some peace in my heart.

 

I am well aware TPTB will never admit their part in this, but if I can prove it myself, maybe I can start to heal a long sealed up emotional wound. 


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#63 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

It's not that I'm set in my believes so much as fighting for the "truth" isn't going to accomplish anything, it's not like the government is going to admit any culpability....

 

I would just ask out of genuine curiosity, what is the ultimate goal? Just knowing the truth? Or doing something with it or what?



I've given a lot of thought to your question. I've asked myself the same question many times. What would happen if the media announced today that 9/11 was an inside job, and members of our own government were involved? What would people do?

 

Probably nothing!! It saddens me to say this, but I don't think the majority of Americans would do anything at all.

So, why is this still important to me? I am driven from deep inside, and I can't really explain why. I just feel like we should all keep pressing for the truth. Maybe so the guilty can be prosecuted?

 

Also, since 9/11, the government has rolled out a whole new set of laws and policies in response to the terror attacks. If 9/11 is ever proven to be an inside job, could they repeal these laws and policies?

Examples:

Patriot Act (shudder)

Naked Body Scanners, with harmful radiation

Out of control TSA (don't touch my junk, haha!)

 

Also, could we end the wars, finally? Finding weapons of mass destruction was a lie, and if 9/11 was an inside job, then we can't really blame any country but our own.  We would have no business fighting terror in other countries.

 

So, while most Americans would do nothing, I believe a few good Americans would stand up and try to peacefully change things. This is what I hope to accomplish.

 

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#64 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 02:54 PM
 
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I don't think we're every going to know the truth about 9/11, because it's almost impossible for private citizens to find all these things out. There are a lot of interesting threads that point in various directions, for sure.

 

But, this (from hakeber):

 

If the US didn't organize it themselves those who did had some serious inside intelligence...and used it totally counter intuitively for someone "who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans".

 

is circular thinking. First, we assume that the number of people killed, the lower than average number of people in the towers (due to the election or whatever - what election was going on, btw?), etc. were part of the plan. Then, we assume that the hijackers must have had amazing inside intelligence in order to make use of such facts to accomplish what they did. There's nothing here that says they must have had serious intelligence and used it counter intuitively. They could just as easily have believed there would be far more people in the towers, etc. than there were, and just picked a bad time for their strike ("bad" from the standpoint of achieving their goals, not from the standpoint of people who would have normally been in the towers, of course).


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#65 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 03:05 PM
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thank you beckybird and storm bride for your answers. 

I wasn't trying to be rude with the questions but genuinely curious about the answer.

I do have my doubts about what happened that day, hell I have my doubts about the moon landing. I have just always let it go based on the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing that will probably ever be proven and I myself don't want to dwell on it. I can see though storm bride, where loosing friends and seeing how they suffer could be a huge motivating factor in wanting the absolute truth.

 

Anyway thank you both for your answers, they have given me a lot to think on..I don't know if it is just a generational thing or what but I haven't held any hope that this government will ever do the right thing. In my eyes I don't see it as functional at all, unless you count serving the needs of some major corporations and the very very few wealthiest among us. I grew up disillusioned with the government and basically just assume they are lying in general...I could go on and on but I think I'll just stop the rambling.

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#66 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 03:42 PM
 
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I don't trust governments, either. I just think that any "proof", one way or another, that may be dug up at such a late date, isn't really proof. If someone leaks documents, etc., how can we possibly know, iln 2011, if they're genuine? (That goes in both directions, btw - whether any "proof" implicates the US government, Osama Bin Laden - or someone/something else completely, for that matter.)


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#67 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 04:59 PM
 
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I agree that 911 pretty much created a whole new era in civil rights and American policy. It was an entire change of scene. We ended an era of prosperity that day and began on a downward spiral... and it wasn't the American people who benefitted. The people who did benefit have eerie connections to 911...but we'll probably never know anything more than that.


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#68 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I don't think we're every going to know the truth about 9/11, because it's almost impossible for private citizens to find all these things out. There are a lot of interesting threads that point in various directions, for sure.

 

But, this (from hakeber):

 

If the US didn't organize it themselves those who did had some serious inside intelligence...and used it totally counter intuitively for someone "who took pleasure in seeing Americans die simply because we are Americans".

 

is circular thinking. First, we assume that the number of people killed, the lower than average number of people in the towers (due to the election or whatever - what election was going on, btw?), etc. were part of the plan. Then, we assume that the hijackers must have had amazing inside intelligence in order to make use of such facts to accomplish what they did. There's nothing here that says they must have had serious intelligence and used it counter intuitively. They could just as easily have believed there would be far more people in the towers, etc. than there were, and just picked a bad time for their strike ("bad" from the standpoint of achieving their goals, not from the standpoint of people who would have normally been in the towers, of course).



Really...it was just bad luck on the behalf of the hijackers that the WTC was at 30% capacity and that the plane crashed into the wing of the pentagon that was under construction?  hmmmm, Maybe.  My Grandpa Believed that until the day he died.  But then he also thought it was plausible how the guys in the black hats never hit their targets, and the guys in the white hats were able to dodge a sea of bullets. That's pretty unlucky since the US has said time and again all the year and years of planning that went into the attacks...I'm just saying.  That's really unlucky.  I guess God IS on our side. :p

 

But you're right, the statement was meant to point out the absurdity of the logic being sold to us.  That was sort of my whole point.

 

Obviously, to me, 9/11 was neither a strange coincidence, nor the result of amicable terrorists.  But that's what I get out of what we have been shown. 


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

thank you beckybird and storm bride for your answers. 

I wasn't trying to be rude with the questions but genuinely curious about the answer.

I do have my doubts about what happened that day, hell I have my doubts about the moon landing. I have just always let it go based on the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing that will probably ever be proven and I myself don't want to dwell on it. I can see though storm bride, where loosing friends and seeing how they suffer could be a huge motivating factor in wanting the absolute truth.

 

Anyway thank you both for your answers, they have given me a lot to think on..I don't know if it is just a generational thing or what but I haven't held any hope that this government will ever do the right thing. In my eyes I don't see it as functional at all, unless you count serving the needs of some major corporations and the very very few wealthiest among us. I grew up disillusioned with the government and basically just assume they are lying in general...I could go on and on but I think I'll just stop the rambling.


Did you mean me?  I think you did. 

 

Thanks for responding to this...That we stop to think and question the system, rather than merely loathe it silently, trust or mistrust it blindly, but that we ask ourselves always WHY, why do they lie?  Why do they exploit?  Why do we allow them to over and over? How do they contribute openly and collusively to the oppression of others and myself?  How do they perpetuate the oppression of the human spirit in my society and why? How can we diminish their power to do so?  That we stop to ask ourselves these questions on a regular, even daily basis, is all that will ever undo the damage that has been done.  Even signed confessions and personal letters to each victim from those responsible couldn't trump THAT.
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I don't trust governments, either. I just think that any "proof", one way or another, that may be dug up at such a late date, isn't really proof. If someone leaks documents, etc., how can we possibly know, iln 2011, if they're genuine? (That goes in both directions, btw - whether any "proof" implicates the US government, Osama Bin Laden - or someone/something else completely, for that matter.)


Speaking for myself, I don't need proof, or data or documents.  I know they have been lying because there is not one piece of so called evidence without a hole and that is all I need to know to begin, and re-begin, and carry on the dialogue that will eventually, if there is a god at all, lead to the demise of the power and a revolution that will bring a pointy reckoning upon the systemic oppression of our collective human spirit and bring forth light and peace. Democratic sharing of ideas and information is the only way to heal the broken system.

 

As for the moon landing.  I have not made up my mind on the matter because I have been so inculcated with the idea of our flag being on the moon it feels foolish to even speculate that it is false, but I can tell you my 18 yo Russian students fell on the floor laughing their butts off at me when I told them I believed in the moon landing...they are shown the disproof of the landings in school and I have to say...they have a lot more evidence pointing to them being fake than I feel comfortable discussing here.  As far as the Russians are concerned it was and is to this day a physical impossibility for man to land on the moon. 

 

But let's not derail the thread,  I am still on the fence.  Suffice to say, what the US citizens take as FACT is laughed at by others around the world as patriotic propaganda.  We see ourselves as the bastion of free press and truth and justice, but in reality, we fall flat of those ideals time and again.


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#69 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 07:22 PM
 
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But let's not derail the thread,  I am still on the fence.  Suffice to say, what the US citizens take as FACT is laughed at by others around the world as patriotic propaganda.  We see ourselves as the bastion of free press and truth and justice, but in reality, we fall flat of those ideals time and again.



I'm not American, and it continues to astonish me that anybody needs to be told this. Patriotic propaganda is everywhere - we have it in Canada, too, although of a less boisterous, and more quietly smug, kind. However, I don't assume that "others around the world" are always right, either. US bashing is easy - heck, it's practically our national hobby up here - but that doesn't mean it's always accurate, yk?


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#70 of 70 Old 05-11-2011, 08:02 PM
 
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I'm not American, and it continues to astonish me that anybody needs to be told this. Patriotic propaganda is everywhere - we have it in Canada, too, although of a less boisterous, and more quietly smug, kind. However, I don't assume that "others around the world" are always right, either. US bashing is easy - heck, it's practically our national hobby up here - but that doesn't mean it's always accurate, yk?



Sorry, Storm.  I do know that you are not a US citizen.  Didn't mean to lump you in with us.  FWIW, I wasn't referring to you in that part of my post...I was addressing the few comments about the moon landing, and it was directed at the thread in general. 

 

Of course others around the world aren't always right, but when you grow up believing something to be a taken for granted FACT and you find out that others around the world think it is a joke and not just some people but a LOT of people, it sort of feels like finding out Santa is a fraud all over again.   Many people in Western Nations are raised to believe that the English speaking world is the ultimate authority on truth and justice.  It is in large part one of the reasons we have grown so powerful, because we believe it, and we export it gobally through so many many forms of media. 

 

US bashing is just another form of distraction from the real criticisms to be made of the World Bank (most evil corporation ever, IMO) and the media corps and industries that run it.  It's a game of Smoke and Mirrors, and anyone who wastes too much energy worrying about the particular politicians or people who front the show are being sucked into the game in exactly the ways they want.   Anything they can do to keep us distracted from participating in real issues in any major ways seems to be fair game.  One might even argue the entire controversy of a conspiracy has been created by the media in an attempt to distract people from the issues of interest rates and bank loans and debt.  It wouldn't be a difficult case to make given their track record.

 

Anyway, sorry you felt lumped in with us dummy Americans...that's not what I meant at all. ;)

 

PS:  The elections scheduled for the morning of 9/11 were local primary elections for district reps...mayor...stuff like that.  After the crash they were rescheduled for the 25th. 


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