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-   -   Osama bin Laden is dead (http://www.mothering.com/forum/14-activism-news/1310999-osama-bin-laden-dead.html)

Dar 05-01-2011 09:06 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-killed/story?id=13505703

Thoughts? I guess I'm having a hard time with all the news coverage about how happy people are. I know he did terrible things, but... it just feels wrong to celebrate anyone's death, and I can't help but remember how he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer. I just find it all very sad.

lookatreestar 05-01-2011 10:05 PM

i can't bring myself to celebrate or be happy either. i am not really relieved either b/c i am sure someone/10 someones could have taken the place already. i dunno. i am also a conspiracy theorist so yeah between this and the birth certificate i am headscratch.gif


treeoflife3 05-01-2011 10:11 PM

Yeah, I suspect there might be some sort of death avenging activity going on now.  On a humorous note though... 

 

No matter what Obama says, bin Laden's not dead until Donald Trump see's his death certificate. #Deathers (michael moore's twitter)


velochic 05-02-2011 05:06 AM

Some will never believe it, and this will make them foam at the mouth.  Oh well.  Their loss, as I think this is good news.  As Twain has been quoted a million times over already in the past 8 hours, "I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." kind of sums it up.


moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 05:50 AM

I respect all of you who aren't, but I have been celebrating since last night. I am ecstatic. I saw this man's face on the news as a child; I saw him again as a teenager, when they upped the ante on the search. I thought he'd never be caught, and he has. This is a momentous occasion, a blow to terrorism, another strike for Obama, nailing him in his first term when Bush couldn't get him in 7 years. (That's 3 points for Obama this weekend: birth certificate, zinging Trump, and Osama!) There may be vengeance activity, but justice has be done and I am proud of our military. A man who orchestrated the deaths of thousands of innocents, including children, is dead, and I see no reason to be sorry for the loss of his life. Today is the first day of a world without Osama bin Laden, and that is a good thing. We've been waiting for it for a very long time.

 

treeoflife - I saw that last night and put it on my FB! haha!


Dar 05-02-2011 09:52 AM

I'm sure he was the mastermind behind 9/11. That, to me, isn't the issue. I'm just not into celebrating murder, even the murder of horrible people - and it wasn't just him, I believe, it was him and his family members who happened to be there at the time. And maybe the world is a better place with him dead... or maybe now he'll be a martyr and thousands of his followers will be mobilized against the USA.

We had a big part in creating Bin Laden. When I posted the link above last night it described the ways the USA (CIA) recruited, trained, and funded Bin Laden during the 1980s, to help him kill more Russians. Interestingly that part of the article is gone this morning. It's true, though - it's not a conspiracy thing; our government freely acknowledged it.

My Iraqi friend (living in the USA now) is ecstatic - if facebook postings are anything to go on, he is the happiest of anyone I know about this.

moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 11:48 AM

I don't call it murder. What Osama did to thousands of innocents was murder. What Obama did to Osama was justice. Osama was not an innocent.


Dar 05-02-2011 12:53 PM

I'm pretty sure one doesn't have to be innocent to be murdered. Many murder victims are also criminals - that doesn't mean killing them isn't murder.

Maybe murder was the only way in this situation - I don't know - but Bin Laden wasn't tried in court and sentenced to the death penalty, and he wasn't in the act of hurting anyone when he was killed (i.e., self defense) so murder seems to be the most accurate term.

moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 12:57 PM

When you are killed by your society's elected officials' administration, it is called justice. The other world leaders seem to agree with Obama that a trial was not needed; we were not the only country hunting him "dead or alive." That he wasn't committing murder at the time isn't some notch in his favor, especially since he was reportedly quite ill and thus couldn't have been committing murder. A murderer is still a murderer even when he's not in the act of committing murderer. Society has the right to govern itself, from individual countries to the world acting together.


_ktg_ 05-02-2011 01:02 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-killed/story?id=13505703

Thoughts? I guess I'm having a hard time with all the news coverage about how happy people are. I know he did terrible things, but... it just feels wrong to celebrate anyone's death, and I can't help but remember how he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer. I just find it all very sad.



I agree with this 100%. 

 


journeymom 05-02-2011 01:09 PM

Here's my understanding of what murder is: The unlawful killing of another human being without valid justification or excuse.

 

So I think that's what Pres. Obama was addressing when he specifically said Bin Laden was killed under his direction. He was telling the world that this was a lawful, justified killing. 


moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 01:14 PM

It's not his death I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating that he can't do murder anymore. I would have celebrated if he were imprisoned or punished in some other fitting way as well, anything that prevented him from doing further harm.


lovingmommyhood 05-02-2011 01:24 PM

Yep, it was a lawful killing. I'm GLAD he's dead. Do I have streamers and confetti around my house? No. But he got what he deserved. The US did not "create" him. You are either evil or you aren't. "They made me do it!" Stopped working in fourth grade. 


journeymom 05-02-2011 01:47 PM

 

Quote:
he was basically supported by our government in becoming a killer.

 

I don't see that.  Or, I don't see that the US supported him specifically.  The US government supported efforts to get the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden joined efforts to get the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan, and so probably benefited indirectly from US money and/or arms.  But this wasn't like Manuel Noriega who got spy training and psychological warfare training at US military installations.

 

I completely agree that in its efforts to safeguard its 'interests' the US has stuck its foot in it all over the world numerous times. 


Dar 05-02-2011 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

Here's my understanding of what murder is: The unlawful killing of another human being without valid justification or excuse.

 

So I think that's what Pres. Obama was addressing when he specifically said Bin Laden was killed under his direction. He was telling the world that this was a lawful, justified killing. 


I guess that all comes down to how one defines "valid justification or excuse". Most people who kill someone have what they think is a valid justification. We usually let our courts determine whether or not their reason really is valid.

And he wasn't killed by his society's elected officials. The Pakistani leaders had nothing to do with it. He was killed by the administration of a country where he had most likely masterminded horrible crimes (although our laws do say innocent until proven guilty, and he had no trial), but not by his own society. Imagine how we'd feel if military members of other countries helicoptered in to the USA and killed one of our leaders because he had orchestrated the killing of thousands of civilians. Which one could argue that some of our leaders have done...

And it's never as simple as "We made him do it" vs "Our actions had nothing to do with what he did". The truth is in between, but to ignore the things that our country has done that have lead to the rise of figures like Osama bin Laden is not right. We - the USA, as a nation - are not innocent either.

Like I said, I'm not saying this was a morally wrong thing to do. I don't know what the options were, and I'm willing to accept that sometimes morality and laws must be flexible. I just don't think a knee-jerk "hip-hip-hooray!" response is especially appropriate or wise.

journeymom 05-02-2011 02:03 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post
I just don't think a knee-jerk "hip-hip-hooray!" response is especially appropriate or wise.

 

Some of the celebrating in the streets has been kind of unseemly, I agree.


Arduinna 05-02-2011 02:06 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

I'm pretty sure one doesn't have to be innocent to be murdered. Many murder victims are also criminals - that doesn't mean killing them isn't murder.

Maybe murder was the only way in this situation - I don't know - but Bin Laden wasn't tried in court and sentenced to the death penalty, and he wasn't in the act of hurting anyone when he was killed (i.e., self defense) so murder seems to be the most accurate term.


According the Administration he used a woman as a human shield and shot at our people.

 

He knew he was on our most wanted list, we showed up to capture him and instead of surrendering he chose to fight and died while resisting capture. That isn't murder. Those there working to take him in put their lives at risk and had the right to defend themselves.

 

 


moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post


According the Administration he used a woman as a human shield and shot at our people.

 

He knew he was on our most wanted list, we showed up to capture him and instead of surrendering he chose to fight and died while resisting capture. That isn't murder. Those there working to take him in put their lives at risk and had the right to defend themselves.

 

 



AMEN.

 

Dar, Obama is our country's elected official. He ordered our military to make capture of Osama, dead or alive, top priority. He ordered the military action yesterday. He monitored it real time. Obama didn't do the killing, but he ordered the killing...therein, our society's elected official authorized the killing, in retaliation for crimes against our people.


Dar 05-02-2011 04:59 PM

I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.

Here's one article on the subject:
http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/us-bin-laden-a-license-kill

As it points out, the man who killed Bin Laden could be legally charged with murder under Pakistani law and the USA does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan... not that this is at all likely to happen, but it legally could. The USA has a long history of acting as if rules and laws don't apply to us.

Storm Bride 05-02-2011 05:22 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.
 


What do you base this on? I'll freely admit that I have no idea what happened, as I wasn't there. It seems very possible that it was a deliberate assassination. It also seems very likely that they wanted to capture him alive, and circumstances didn't allow for that. There's really no way for us to know.

 


Drummer's Wife 05-02-2011 05:25 PM

They are saying that capturing him alive was the first goal, but that b/c they were met by gunfire, it obviously didn't work out that way.



eta: and of course he was murdered. He was killed, but not by accident (regardless of whether that was the goal vs. detaining him). But then again, I feel like those on death row are murdered when the day comes - even though they are murderers themselves. If it's purposeful, it's clearly murder. Calling it justice doesn't change the outcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Arduinna 05-02-2011 05:33 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar View Post

I doubt that they tried very hard (if at all) to capture him alive. In my opinion this was an assassination, which yes, is illegal, even if the president authorizes it. Was it ethically right to do so? Maybe.

Here's one article on the subject:
http://www.rnw.nl/international-justice/article/us-bin-laden-a-license-kill

As it points out, the man who killed Bin Laden could be legally charged with murder under Pakistani law and the USA does have an extradition treaty with Pakistan... not that this is at all likely to happen, but it legally could. The USA has a long history of acting as if rules and laws don't apply to us.


Considering that Bin Ladin was hiding right next to a military training facility in a building that was only built within the last 5 years, I really don't give a crap what Pakistan can supposedly do. I have no concern at all that our Gov is going to hand over Navy Seals and CIA agents to Pakistan. It really boggles the mind that anyone would even entertain that the POTUS is going to do that considering they were acting on his orders. There are already serious questions being asked about Pakistans involvement with the hiding of Bin Ladin.


moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 09:54 PM

There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.

 

He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.


Chamomile Girl 05-02-2011 10:21 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

There is no way that the US will honor an expedition treaty in this situation. We knew we couldn't trust the Pakistan government, and so we kept the mission covert and succeeded. He was living in the shadow of a military training facility, either that's coincidence, they knew and were allowing it, or they knew and were even going so far as to protect him and help him stay hidden. Either they are incompetent, or they're aiding him, even though they've been pretending to be with us in this fight.

 

He was killed in a gunfight, and he was hiding behind a woman and was potentially armed... our men were trying to capture him, while still protecting themselves.

You mean extradition treaty.

Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.

 

 


TiredX2 05-02-2011 10:48 PM

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post

It's not his death I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating that he can't do murder anymore. I would have celebrated if he were imprisoned or punished in some other fitting way as well, anything that prevented him from doing further harm.



Yes.  This was the very rare situation, in fact, that I am not sure imprisonment would have actually altered the amount of killing he "supported."  Can you imagine the situation where he was being held?

 

And no, I'm not saying that it makes it *right*, just that it get's it closer to understandable.


TiredX2 05-02-2011 10:51 PM

I also wanted to add--- the pictures of wild jubulation are more than a bit sick to me.  They smack of the same depravity as those from Abu Ghraib.  Just because a situation is the best of two evils does not make it suddenly *good*.


moonfirefaery 05-02-2011 11:01 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post

You mean extradition treaty.

Well at any rate I'll bet that Pakistan is alternately fuming mad and crapping themselves.

 

 



Yes, that, sorry about that. And lol, I bet they are!!! We were right in their shadow, taking out Osama, and they were unaware!


Dar 05-02-2011 11:14 PM

Of course we would never honor a request for extradition from Pakistan. I did say that up front. And no, I don't think Pakistan would ever make sure a request. The point was that the USA broke international law and Pakistan law.

Some reports say that Bin Laden never fired a shot - some also say that his wife placed herself between the Seals and Bin Laden, rather than him hiding behind her. Whatever, he wasn't killed for cowardice. The Seals generally do have cameras on their helmets so it's interesting that no footage has been released.

I'm not a fan of bin Laden, really. I can accept that killing him might have been necessary, and that the world without him may be a better place. I've thought at times that killing Qaddafi might improve Libya's situation immeasurably. But thinking about them dying doesn't make me feel joyful - it makes me feel sad, that there are people with so much hate in them that the only solution is apparently to kill them. I find that really, really sad. I also think that

amma_mama 05-03-2011 04:55 AM

Given that he was found and killed as a result of intelligence, I do not think that we will know for a long time, or ever, what the role of Pakistan was in all this. It cannot be expected that we are being told the full truth and that may be how it has to be at this point.

As for the celebrations, I have already ranted away in the other thread on this topic. While I agree that this is an important turning point in the "war on terrorism", it will be sad if it does not lead to some introspection as a nation. Not a whole lot to celebrate, IMHO. The fact that he was not found and killed as a result of our violent occupation of two countries should give us all some pause.

moonfirefaery 05-03-2011 05:57 AM

It's the lives that may be spared by his death that make me joyful.



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