AP and Pro-choice????? - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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#151 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 04:58 AM
 
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OMG pugmadmama you are a GODDESS. you consistently say every single thing i could possibly say and more, and eloquently.

you have such a good head on your shoulders. i am happy that there are mamas like you out there.
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#152 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 11:37 AM
 
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I understand what is being said but I don't like the idea that because someone chooses to adopt a baby in need of a family from a different country that they are somehow not doing the right thing. An unloved, unwanted baby who is sitting in an orphanage -whether it be China, Russia, America - is still an unloved, unwanted baby and I think it's fantastic that people will take them in and give them the family they need.
Did you ever read the magazine Rosie? She always had a section of older kids who needed families...I thought that was a great way to reach a lot of people and I am sure it had success.
I know a woman who has adopted two babies from this country and another woman who adopted two babies from China...a woman who adopted from India...and a little girl who came from Russia. I think it's wonderful that ALL those children have homes and loving families now. I also think that the general public has a mislead vision of how hard adoption is and how much it costs but I was talking about it with my friend and she said DON'T LET THE MONEY SCARE YOU AWAY!!!! There are grants you can apply for and other things. But it's not a process I could handle right now...but when my children are older...we plan on adopting a child. It's something that is very important to me.
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#153 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 12:34 PM
 
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I think internation adoption is great.

I think it was even better under Clinton when people in other countries had access to birth control and safe abortion.

There are more children waiting to be adopted than adoptive parents. That is fact. Adoption is NOT a solution to all unwanted pregnancies.

 

 

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#154 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 03:37 PM
 
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Plath, I respect what you are doing very much, but please know that both you and your experiences are exceptions to the rule. The majority of places I've come into contact with have nothing to offer but their own agendas shoved down peoples throats with a large serving of lies, untruths and propaganda.

Those anti-choicers I met with way back when (when I was attempting to get a hold of some much needed free maternity clothes that were promised to me....turns out that since I had already decided to keep my son I wasn't worthy of the probably non existant gifts)tried to get me to put my mixed son (black dad, white mom)into foster care until he was 2 or 3 at which point I could "ask a judge to get him back"...you know, cuz I would be "older, wiser, and more capable of raising a child" Like this lady knew me from a can of peas... Grrrrrr.....

--Kelly

PS-Thanks to those who praised my last 2 posts. As you may be able to tell, I am very passionate about this....BUT I sometimes worry that I'll be taken for rabid and be euthanized! (ummm...ignore the growling up there.... heh heh heh)

PPS-Klothos, I had a similar experience when I gave birth to ds....cept he was in the NICU and I was attempting "latch on" with a double breast pump for the 1st time when the social worker came. Heaven forbid she wait three damn minutes to begin harassing me.....

PPPS-I read somewhere that if every church had ONE member adopt a "special needs child" (including race, diabilities, sibling, older, etc) the problem would be almost nonexistant....think about it-makes sense...there are plenty of towns that have like, a church on every other corner....I plan on adoping (probably a mixed kid or sibling group), although not at this point in my life.

PPPPS-Speaking of inter-racial adoption--Any AP moms who wanna adopt my 5 year old ds one weekend a month --- I am now accepting applications! There is grant money available under the "Single Mother Mental Health Clause" which states that every single mother is entitled to some alone time and a chance to not go nuts! hehehe

Kelly, mama (12yoDS), doula, RN, and writer.
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#155 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 05:13 PM
 
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BUT I sometimes worry that I'll be taken for rabid and be euthanized! (ummm...ignore the growling up there.... heh heh heh)
Nah - the world is full of apathetic people...we need people that have that passion in them!!
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#156 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 05:58 PM
 
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I understand what is being said but I don't like the idea that because someone chooses to adopt a baby in need of a family from a different country that they are somehow not doing the right thing. An unloved, unwanted baby who is sitting in an orphanage -whether it be China, Russia, America - is still an unloved, unwanted baby

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#157 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kinipela79
I understand what is being said but I don't like the idea that because someone chooses to adopt a baby in need of a family from a different country that they are somehow not doing the right thing. An unloved, unwanted baby who is sitting in an orphanage -whether it be China, Russia, America - is still an unloved, unwanted baby and I think it's fantastic that people will take them in and give them the family they need...
I agree with everything you said. However, the post that started this claimed that her pastor was practically forced into adopting internationally because of the redtape here in the USA. Which is total and utter crap. But it's something I hear a lot from people who adopt who are also hellbent on taking the choice of legal abortion away from women here in the USA. They claim to put their money where their money is...they adopt! Then it turns out they adopted a healthy baby from Russia, China or Korea. Or they just happend to have the best luck in the adoption world and social services insisted they take a healthy, white newborn. Yay, right.

I under no obligation to go along with their self-justifing bullshit to make them feel better. And if it were my pastor who had the nerve to try to snow me like that, I'd be finding a new church.


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Originally Posted by TiredX2
I think internation adoption is great.

I think it was even better under Clinton when people in other countries had access to birth control and safe abortion...
Right on!
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#158 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 06:58 PM
 
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pugmadmama - that's why I also said that I think that people are really mislead by the adoption process and think that the easiest and quickest option is an out of country adoption.

I totally agree that adoption isn't the one and only answer but I do wish that it were shown in a more "available" light if that makes sense. Because I think there are a lot more people who would want to do that but it seems like this huge unattainable thing.

But I do agree that a lot of people who adopt don't want to "get stuck" with a "problem" child...but there are a lot of people...both prolife and prochoice...who truly adopt because they want to give a child the life he/she deserves...regardless of their "special needs". I hope I make sense.
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#159 of 594 Old 06-18-2004, 08:43 PM
 
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Well that's kind of a loaded question. I don't see being pro choice and being AP as having anything to do with each other. I have never connected the two. Actually, I have found that more AP moms tend to be liberal since it is a "crunchier" lifestyle and tends to go along with natural parenting. Really though, ones political leanings don't have much to do with putting your child first. I could say the same thing about pro lifers. They are all for the so called rights of the fetus, but once it comes out you better not be one of those "freeloading welfare moms". How is THAT putting kids first?
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#160 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 06:41 PM
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Doesn't it upset you that people do 12, 15 and even 20 abortions? Also, do you know when those women become mothers they are usually terrible mothers? I have a friend whose mother used abortion constantly for contraception and she was the accident child (doctor refused because it was too late). Her mother used to grab her and hit her head against the wall.

Remember when you're pro-choice, you're also supporting these people.

I don't think the inside the body argument has any value, unless the woman was raped. Responsible women don't get pregnant by accident in the 21st century.

If this was my website I would ban all pro-choicers and pro-wars. I'm brutaly honest.
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#161 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 06:56 PM
 
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I don't even have a clue what you could possibly be saying. Are you saying that rather than 15 abortions, it would've been better if she had birthed all those babies to slam all their heads against the wall?

Supporting them to do what??

Personally, I'm glad someone like that aborted the rest of their babies. If she'd have birthed them, only to abuse them, that starts a cycle of abuse to pass down for decades. Granted, it would be much better had she not conceived, but she already did! What then?

And your statement that responsible people don't get pregnant just boggles the mind!

Actually, I maybe shouldn't have replied to this. Me thinks you are a troll.
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#162 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:10 PM
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Actually, I maybe shouldn't have replied to this. Me thinks you are a troll.
I should get a penny each time I'm called a troll.
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#163 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:16 PM
 
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So let me get this straight: It is your contention that anyone who is the 'kind of person' who would have an abortion is usually a terrible mother... so we should deny them the abortion so they can be a terrible mother to as many children as possible? You're brutally something, but I'm not sure honest is it.

I will leave your silly comment about responsiblity somehow rendering contraception 100% effective for someone else to address.
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#164 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:19 PM
 
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My MIL conceived all of her 3 children on birth control!
1. condom
2. IUD
3. pill

I guess she's just irresponsible.

Ilaria mamma to Owen, Caroline & Patrick .... loving life as expats in Asia intactlact.gifnovaxnocirc.gifuc.jpgnamaste.gif
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#165 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Leonor

If this was my website I would ban all pro-choicers and pro-wars. I'm brutaly honest.
well, i'm glad this isn't 'leonor.com' then .
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#166 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ilaria
My MIL conceived all of her 3 children on birth control!
1. condom
2. IUD
3. pill

I guess she's just irresponsible.
One form of contraception is often not enough, most doctors and books will recomend 2 at the same time. The diafragm (sp?) is great according to my doctor although it might be annoying. My implant never failed neither my early combinations of pill + condom + watching cycle.

People can also have pleasurable sex in less connventional manner, like caresses, etc.

And abstinence is full proof!
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#167 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:42 PM
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well, i'm glad this isn't 'leonor.com' then .
Hmmm.. It seems that domain is for sale.
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#168 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
So let me get this straight: It is your contention that anyone who is the 'kind of person' who would have an abortion is usually a terrible mother... so we should deny them the abortion so they can be a terrible mother to as many children as possible? You're brutally something, but I'm not sure honest is it.
I'm not here to stand for a prohibitive law that is probably useless, although state funded abortion is gross. And I don't support passing the message that abortion is moral.

My friend was after that mother's last abortion. After the "scare" of having to deal with the life she created, I guessed she learned about contraception or to keep her legs shut!

My friend turned to be a wonderful creative compassionate AP mother.

If a woman is so fertile contraception doesn't work, she should keep her legs shut and seek less conventional pleasures.
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#169 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
If a woman is so fertile contraception doesn't work, she should keep her legs shut and seek less conventional pleasures.
:
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#170 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 10:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonor
Doesn't it upset you that people do 12, 15 and even 20 abortions? Also, do you know when those women become mothers they are usually terrible mothers? I have a friend whose mother used abortion constantly for contraception and she was the accident child (doctor refused because it was too late). Her mother used to grab her and hit her head against the wall.
It's pretty insulting to "those women" to say they're bad mothers prone to banging their children's heads against the wall. Most women who choose abortion are not doing it 20 times, so please use caution and common sense when painting all women with that same ugly brush.

And taking away that woman's right to abortion would not have caused her to avoid pregnancy. It just would have given her more children to batter.

Quote:
Remember when you're pro-choice, you're also supporting these people.
Um, no, I'm not. Pro-choice does not make me pro-child abuser.

Quote:
I don't think the inside the body argument has any value, unless the woman was raped.
I really don't understand this argument at all. Either a fetus has rights or it doesn't. Does a fetus that is the product of rape have less rights than a fetus that is the product of consentual sex? That's hardly fair to the fetus.

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Responsible women don't get pregnant by accident in the 21st century.
No birth control is 100% effective. This is a blanket statement that just doesn't hold true.

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If this was my website I would ban all pro-choicers and pro-wars. I'm brutaly honest.
Harsh.

Melanie
Magical Mama, joyfully home educating my three wonders: FR (12/02), EG (05/05), DK (06/09)
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#171 of 594 Old 06-20-2004, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by littlehiphuggers
I always assumed all ap mamas were pro-life
well, I have skipped over the 169 no-doubt-colorful debate to reply that when it comes to free thinking women, mothers, and love NEVER EVER doubt that you can for one minute pigeon hole anyone.
As a PETA -freak <------- I always ponder why pro-lifers eat meat...but back to never assuming....
I am a mainstream-makeup wearing, vegan , hombirthin' ,AP'er, EBF, cloth diapering PRO CHOICE, non-Christian homebirth midwifery assistant and doula.
As a mother of daughters, I cannot stand by ever and watch one right get taken away from them , ever.
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#172 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 12:35 AM
 
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"And your statement that responsible people don't get pregnant just boggles the mind!"

I would hope that responsible people would be getting pregnant.

"As a PETA -freak <------- I always ponder why pro-lifers eat meat..."

me = pro-life vegan

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#173 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 01:59 AM
 
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Doesn't it upset you that people do 12, 15 and even 20 abortions?
That is a rare situation indeed. And that IN NO WAY convinces me to take away the option from other people. One person making a poor choice should not effect the choices I have available to me.

Quote:
Also, do you know when those women become mothers they are usually terrible mothers?
So, you would argue that they should be FORCED to become mothers?

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Remember when you're pro-choice, you're also supporting these people.
Yeah, I'm supporting their choice NOT to become a parent. Every child a wanted child.

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Responsible women don't get pregnant by accident in the 21st century.
: (the following #s are yearly) So, the 1/1000 woman who gets pg from her partner who has had a vascectomy isn't being responsible? How about the 4/1000 women who have had a tubal and still get pg every year? : What you are saying is the only way to be "responsible" is to NEVER have sex unless it is procreational.


 

 

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#174 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 02:10 AM
 
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small minded people have trouble brooking people who have differing opinions, so this doesn't surprise me

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Originally Posted by Leonor
If this was my website I would ban all pro-choicers and pro-wars. I'm brutaly honest.
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#175 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 02:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonor
If a woman is so fertile contraception doesn't work, she should keep her legs shut and seek less conventional pleasures.
How exactly is she supposed to know that she's fertile enough to get pregnant while using contraception until she gets pregnant while using contraception?

And btw it's "fool-proof" not "full proof." Just fyi.

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#176 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 09:54 AM
 
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Leonore,

Did you stop and think that maybe she abused this child, not because she was a serial abortioner, but because she DID NOT WANT THAT BABY??? Maybe that's why she should have had the abortion in the 1st place!

AND-Plenty of unplanned pregnancies and abortions happen within stable marriages amongst upper class ladies. Are you telling me that once married, one should abstain, settling for caresses?? Really now. If you're stating this on a religious basis (which I'm not sure if you are...), isn't it against the bible for a woman to withhold herself from her hubbie??

I've worked with MANY doctors (OB/GYN's, family practitioners, CNMs, etc)as both a medical assistant and student nurse and not one of them has recommended 2 or more forms of birth control! The exception is for women who are on the pill/IUD/spermicidal jelly/other non barrier methods and not in a monogomous relationship should use a condom--not to further enhance the contraceptive effectiveness, but to prevent STDs incl. HIV/AIDS, HPC, HepC, Herpes, Shall I go on....?

And as a pro-choice woman, yes, I do support those who have had 12 abortions (although, again, in my extensive OB/GYN experience and experience working with low-income, teenage and other "at risk" preggies, I've never met one woman with more than 3 under her belt. This is also going by their medical records, so it's not like they're lying!) mainly because it is their CHOICE. Do I recommend that-no. It's physically unsafe to have that many done. But it's also potentially physically unsafe to give birth, have sex, and to get a tattoo even, but it's not my biz what other ladies do unless it hurts someone else-not a potential life.....Risks vs. benefits. Personally, I think it's better to have been "killed" before my heart was beating, before I could feel pain than to have my head smashed into walls as a child, growing up KNOWING I'm not wanted or loved.....

Best Wishes, Kelly

PS-I've also never met a woman who casually chose to abort, as in "Ah, well....no biggie. I'll just head to the clinic and that's that" All decisions regarding an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy (not that they're one in the same!) are gut wrenching and potentially heartbreaking, and most decisions in ANY direction are made with extreme thought, consideration, and yes-love.

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#177 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 11:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
One form of contraception is often not enough, most doctors and books will recomend 2 at the same time. The diafragm (sp?) is great according to my doctor although it might be annoying. My implant never failed neither my early combinations of pill + condom + watching cycle.

People can also have pleasurable sex in less connventional manner, like caresses, etc.

And abstinence is full proof!
Uh yeah, whatever

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#178 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 12:23 PM
 
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If this was my website I would ban all pro-choicers and pro-wars. I'm brutaly honest.

Thank goddess for small favors! I think narrowmindedviews.com is open for membership..........
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BTW Leonore....in all your extensive research regarding birth control options, have you read it in the MANY texts, pamphlets, etc that diaphragms lose a significant portion of their effectiveness in women who have had previous abortions OR HAVE ***given birth to a baby weighing 500 grams or more?? (500 grams is about 1.1lbs, so a miscarriage and/or still birth would count).

Or that touching one's own genitals (a required action for inserting a diaphragm)is a no-no in some cultures, or that unfortunately some women to not practice good enough hygeine to be relied upon to properly remove, clean and disinfect their diaphragms? Or that diaphragms offer next to no protection against STDs (I think it's about 1% for most STDs).These are ALL issues that need to be considered.

The same goes for MANY contraceptives.

I'm honestly glad that your diaphragm experience has been thrilling and wonderful. But please know that it's not like that for many women.

Kelly, mama (12yoDS), doula, RN, and writer.
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#180 of 594 Old 06-21-2004, 02:15 PM
 
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in all your extensive research regarding birth control options, have you read it in the MANY texts, pamphlets, etc that diaphragms lose a significant portion of their effectiveness in women who have had previous abortions OR HAVE ***given birth to a baby weighing 500 grams or more??
Aren't you supposed to get refitted for a diaphragm after giving birth? It's not like a condom where you just go pick it up at Giant. You get a prescription for the right sized one. So it's not that they're losing effectiveness, it's that you need the right size.

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 9yo ds and 7yo ds
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and 2yo ds 
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