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#31 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:19 PM
 
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i have never understood how AP & GD women can be at the same time pro choice
I've thought the same thing too. I personally would never have an abortion. I couldn't do it. To me if I am pregnant that is a child and I could never kill my child. I can respect that some women choose to abort for medical or rape reasons. I would carry a child that was the result of rape or that had genetic problems. But I know that not all people can do that.
What really makes me sad are the people who abort because of "accidental" pregnancy. My wish is that they never got pregnant to start with. And I think that issue needs to be addressed before we can start to come to a better compromise in regards to abortion.

I have a question for those who are pro-choice. Often times I hear the arguement that the government shouldn't make moral decisions for people. But it is done is several other cases. Rape is illegal. Some people may not feel that rape is wrong. Other kinds of murder are illegal but again some people don't think they are wrong if they kill someone.
What is the difference between the gov't making a moral decision on abortion and rape?

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#32 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally posted by joesmom
my son was circumcised in the hospital, that was before i knew i had a choice. (it sounds dumb but it is true.) the few times i have mentioned his circumcision here i have felt the judgment of many other mamas, whether it was outright or implied.

& yet i am supposed to stand by & not challenge the misconceptions many people have about abortion? you won't allow a dr. to snip off a tiny portion of your child, but you expect all women to have the right to evacuate their womb, for whatever reason? we need to realize it is a baby. NOT random cells & tissue.

we have a prolife pregnancy center in our area too, they provide clothes & carseats etc. the media portrays the prolifers as religious zealots, & ok, some of them are. but most of them are like me, & the other women who have posted here, people whose hearts literally break at the thought of a doctor being given the right to end the life of someone who had the POTENTIAL to accomplish great things.

i am so glad other prolife moms are speaking up. sometimes i feel like i am the only one!
That is part of the problem. The fetus is "part" of the mother and not a separate entity until it is born. Are you saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body? Are you saying the mother has no rights as soon as she becomes pregnant and the only rights that matter at that point are those of the fetus?

I would have to give the benefit of the doubt here to an adult female and believe that she is capable of making a choice about her body. Comaprig that to circumcision of a baby that is no longer part of the mother, as in literally inside of her, is an apples and oranges comparison.

do you think any reasonable person, in this case female, would chose an abortion if she really did not have to?

I do understand there are those that "abuse" this and use it for birth control, but those instances are in the minority.

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#33 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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C'mon, C'mon, back on topic:

NOT would you have an abortion?

BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?


 

 

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#34 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:32 PM
 
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I won't make any apologies for being pro-life. If you want to label me a "religious zealot", fine. I'll take that label over "supporter of in-utero infanticide" any day.

I have seen a 12-week old aborted fetus in the (torn-apart) flesh, thrown in a sink like so much garbage. Don't tell me that child didn't suffer. Don't try to make me believe that it is anything even resembling humane to allow a child to have its head born and then stabbed with scissors so its brain can be sucked out. You will never convince me that abortion (in any form, at any time) is anything less than an absolute horror.

I will agree that there is a tremendous need for WAY better support programs for mothers who need them. But brutally killing their unborn (or partially born) babies is not the answer.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#35 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:33 PM
 
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MNS, I'm sorry that your friends were not treated with dignity, but at least assistance was available to them and that is more than what the pro-choice folks are offering.
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Pro-Lifer's in general do not care about the mother. The fetus is the all important object. They deny the right of the womena whose body the fetus is part of, the ability to make these very difficult choices for herself. Between her and her maker.
This is the quote I was refering to when I suggested that we all speak respectfully to one another. I guess that as a pro-lifer I felt this was not a respectful way to make your point. Perhaps your point is a valid one in speaking about politicians, or even some in leadership or the fringe of the pro-life movement. However, to make a blanket statment that "Pro-lifer's in general do not care about the mother" is hurtful and simply not true, as I have already pointed out.
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#36 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:41 PM
 
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I think it is wonderful and a long time overdue. Those CHILDREN needed someone to stand up for their lives and refuse to MURDER them.

I think all abortion should be illegal and prosecutable by law as the murder it is.

Like me don't like me I don't care. Truth is truth. If it wan't a baby, you weren't pregnant and if it wasn't alive then why if left alone would it have been born into a baby????
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#37 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by TiredX2
C'mon, C'mon, back on topic:

NOT would you have an abortion?

BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?

OK. Smply put "NO" and more than likely this won't last long when put to a constittional test either. The appeals and court battles to ensue. In the meantime women suffer as a result of it.

Like has been mentioned in the thread, these types of abortin are not the "average" and are usually only done in extreme circumstances where the mothe is at risk or the fetus is not viable anyway.

MNS
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#38 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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BUT, how about this ban on a specific medical proceedure that the vast majority of the time is performed on a non-viable fetus? Should congress decide it is unnecessary or should DOCTORS be able to practice?

I think you know where I stand.

 

 

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#39 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 03:53 PM
 
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oops I guess I posted while all of you were posting....

Sorry TiredX2, I'll try to keep my comments on topic.

Quote:
NOT would you have an abortion?
BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?
Well, as another poster put it, there really isn't "anything even resembling humane to allow a child to have its head born and then stabbed with scissors so its brain can be sucked out."

I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Why not simply allow the baby to be born? If the fetus is viable then allow it to be adopted if not wanted. If the fetus is not viable then it won't survive and the end result is the same as if you had killed the child during birth as is currently done in the partial birth abortion.
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#40 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:02 PM
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D & X should not be illegal. However, I also believe that, ethically, it should not be performed, at least unless the fetus is first killed through a lethal injection or through another, less violent and pain-producing, means.

That is as far as I can go in responding to the folks who responded to my first post, without taking this off-topic.

Again, let us please keep in mind that virtually all of the pregnancies ended through D&X either involve a non-viable fetus (ie, the fetus will either die naturally before birth, or will not be able to survive for more than days or weeks following birth - the latter is the case with anencephalic babies, for example), or a case in which the woman's life is in jeopardy and she is faced either with continuing the pregnancy and likely having both her and the fetus die, or getting treatment and having the fetus die.

No one FORCES anyone to get a D&X. There are other methods of abortion, even at that late stage. And if the issue is the life/health of the woman rather than that of the fetus, the fetus can be induced or born through c-section, even if it may not be likely to survive.
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#41 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:03 PM
 
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It would seem to me clear as daylight that abortion would be a crime. --Gandhi
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#42 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Why not simply allow the baby to be born?
Well, in the case of severe hydroencephalitus (spelling) the diameter of the head is up to 20" and so CANNOT be vaginally delievered. The mother can either have a c-section or a "partial birth abortion."

If there are severe medical abnormalities found after about 20 weeks (missing brain, etc...) and the parents do not want to wait 20 more months for a stillbirth, they are encouraged to get an abortion. BUT, these are parents who very often really wanted a baby. In a "classical" abortion the results are scraps of bloody body parts, in a partial birth abortion, the parents can be helped through their grieving process by being able to hold the much longed for baby (the baby can be wrapped in a blanket and held, looket at etc...) and start the letting go process. It is supposed to make a horrible situation a bit easier on these grief stricken people. There are also advantages if the parents want to donate organs and such (in the case of no brain development beyond brain stem, the transplant team can be there ready and it can be more controled) and try to make something positive out of a tragedy.

The vast majority of "social" abortions occur before 12 weeks, partial birth abortions are generally only given in extream situation with much trepidation, agony and grief.

 

 

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#43 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:16 PM
 
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If the parents want to hold thier baby and grieve then why would they want the doctor to stab the baby as it is being born. Why not simply give them the baby and allow them to hold this non-viable baby as it dies? Why is c-section so acceptable for mothers of full term babies but those with enlarged heads that will not be viable need to be killed and cut up so that the mother doesn't have to have a c-sec?????

I'm not getting this. Why does the baby have to be killed during birth? Even if the mother is induced why does the child have to be stabbed and cut up??

Of course we want to save the mother's life, but for pete's sake why can't we be humane to the child in the process??

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It would seem to me clear as daylight that abortion would be a crime. --Gandhi
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#44 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?

 

 

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#45 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally posted by TiredX2
The vast majority of "social" abortions occur before 12 weeks, partial birth abortions are generally only given in extream situation with much trepidation, agony and grief.
I don't believe that. Do you have objective stats to back up that statement?

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#46 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 05:49 PM
 
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The predition is that the PBA ban will be overturned by the Supreme Court because it does not contain a provision to protect the life of the mother.

I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.

--AmyB
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#47 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 06:39 PM
 
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I just heard the co-author of this bill from OhiO on NPR say that more legislation restricting abortion is already "in the works". This is just a "first step".

MNS
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#48 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:27 PM
 
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totally agree w/ Celestial. if this HAS to take place (I have doubts that it would ever HAVE to take place), at least make it as painless as possible for the baby...
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#49 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:34 PM
 
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My opinion, and this will go a bit OT since I really want to address what Barbara is saying about crisis preg. centers.

I think that it's gross and wrong to have a partial birth abortion BUT in the medically necessary cases mentioned above, they should absolutely have that right.....though I wonder the same thing as Celestial- why can't they stop the heart before the actual procedure? So, imo, if it's medically necessary it should be legal. But, if it isn't, I don't agree with it. Just my opinion.


About crisis preg centers- I've been thinking about them alot lately because I really want to start one in my area. I feel that there are women who are scared/poor/confused, etc. that would certainly choose keeping the baby over having an abortion if they had help (both emotional and financial) from caring people at a crisis preg. center. That being said, the majority of centers that I'm aware of seem to offer mimimal financial assistance; and what help is offered has tons of strings attached, usually in the form of religion being shoved down the mom's throat. Now, I'm not anti religion, or anti Christianity; and I don't care if a preg center preaches or anything. BUT, a lot only offer help if the women start going to meetings or church or such; and if a family "takes in" a pregnant woman, they are again, usually very religious and force it on the woman. I say this not as a generalization; Ive seen it. One woman I know who did this (took in pregnant women, not teens but adults) had curfews for the moms, they HAD to go to church and bible study, and couldn't have men over at all. Now, I can agree with not wanting a buch of guys over your house, but curfews and "morality" standards for a grown woman, come on!!! The local crisis preg center doesn't give things away, the women have to earn them by earning what they call "mommie bucks"; each time the woman shows up for a parenting class, appointment, BIBLE STUDY, etc, they get $1 in mommie bucks. The can then spend them at the "store"; outfits are 1-2 dollars, car seats are 10; A heck of alot of crap to go through for used clothes and car seats. And ime, these women are also encouraged to give their babies up for adoption instead of keeping them.

So, my rambling point is that crisis preg centers don't help the way they need to. What would work is offering free clothes, strollers, cribs, etc; parenting/breastfeeding info; and most importantly- helping these women financially- and that can be as simple as helping them apply for state health care, welfare, food stamps, housing, etc. Many women aren't informed about their options, and if they had someone helping them maybe they could get some help and actually make it.

Ugh. I'm sorry, I do believe that crisis preg centers are well intended, but are pushing their own agenda; and to say "Well, they can get help there" is such a cop out. A few free outfits doesn't help pay the bills.

Sorry for rambling; this is my issue at the moment; I'd really like to start a "REAL" crisis preg center someday


Kristi

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#50 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Celestial
Out of curiosity:
Why, if there is a need to have a late term abortion for medical reasons, CAN'T the medical personel administer a drug to stop the baby's heart beating BEFORE the procedure? Or do something else to allow for a more "humane" death before removing the baby from the uterus?
Yes. But I understand that it's not always done. As I've said, it absolutely MUST be done, IMO, in order to bring the practice within the ethical pale.
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#51 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:47 PM
 
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My sister ended a pregnancy at 15 weeks, with unbelievable agony and heartache. It was a very much wanted child, but tragically, it was not viable. She was told by her doctors that there was actual danger to her own life if she would carry to term, and the baby would never live. Very sorrowfully, she and my bil decided to terminate.

I am aghast that there is no provision in the law for something of this kind.
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#52 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:52 PM
 
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I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
Sad, but true!

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#53 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally posted by MotherNatrsSon
Are you saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body?

do you think any reasonable person, in this case female, would chose an abortion if she really did not have to?
MNS
i am not saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body. if she wants to cut off her leg, or her arm, fine. but when she has an abortion she is not only deciding about HER body. she is also deciding about the body of her own CHILD, tearing it out of the place it should have been safe & warm & protected.

& are you seriously asking me if i think a reasonable woman has ever had an abortion that she did not HAVE to have? um, yes. nearly 5,000 times a day, i believe.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TiredX2
Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?

why should the mother be afforded more rights than the child? most of us here, i would say at least 90%, are ADAMANT that it is a child's BIRTHRIGHT to be nourished, for as long as he wants, by the milk from his mother's breasts. & yet you can advocate abortion, saying the mother has the RIGHT to control HER body. what if a mother just doesn't want to use HER breasts to feed her infant?

i am genuinely confused.

HOWEVER, to answer the OP, yes, i think partial birth abortion should be illegal. i think 2nd trimester abortion should be illegal. i think having an abortion when you are one week pregnant should be illegal.

but that is just me. i realize i am in the minority. but i am here.
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#54 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 08:07 PM
 
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In the US each day, there are 4,000 abortions.

Every fourth unborn child is aborted.

An unborn baby is killed every 20 seconds in America.

95% of abortions are done as birth control, 1% are done because of rape/incest, 1% because of fetal abnormalities, and 3% due to the mother's health problems.


(In a book written about abortions due to rape,...) 192 women were interviewed. These women had had abortions after they became pregnant from rape. Nearly all the women said that they regretted the abortion, and over 90% said they would discourage other rape victims from choosing abortion.

Child abuse has gone up 500% since the legalization of abortion.

Out of all women who have abortions, 75% say they had an abortion because the baby would have interfered with their life; 66% say that they couldn't have afforded a baby; and 50% said they didn't want to be a single mother or were having problems with their partner.

14,000 abortions are done because of rape/incest. (This only makes up about 1% of all abortions.)

23% of abortions occur at 9-10 weeks, 11% at 11-12 weeks, 7% at 13-15 weeks, 4% at 16-20 weeks, and 1% for 21-40 weeks.


read this. do you feel like crying? if not, READ IT AGAIN!
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#55 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 08:12 PM
 
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Sources?

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#56 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 08:15 PM
 
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Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & The Allen Guttmacher Institute
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#57 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 09:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by joesmom
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & The Allen Guttmacher Institute
Please post the link?

Another interesting little anecdote rom NPR tonight. They said that the less education a woman had, the more likely she was to support this ban.

Hmmm....

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#58 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 09:11 PM
 
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#59 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 09:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by me&3
My sister ended a pregnancy at 15 weeks, with unbelievable agony and heartache. It was a very much wanted child, but tragically, it was not viable. She was told by her doctors that there was actual danger to her own life if she would carry to term, and the baby would never live. Very sorrowfully, she and my bil decided to terminate.

I am aghast that there is no provision in the law for something of this kind.
Not eager to get into this debate. But the law would not have affected your sister in the slightest. It specifically prohibits one procedure, which AFAIK is not used at 15 weeks.

Unfortunately the media is hyping this up to be the end of all abortions, or even the end to all late term abortions. Can't imagine why they'd want to do that. : It's not. Read the law:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c108umnmPa::

The specific ban is on procedures in which:

Quote:
the person performing the abortion --
`(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
`(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus
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#60 of 175 Old 10-22-2003, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
Amen!!!
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Refbacks are Off