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"Partial Birth Abortion" Ban

17K views 174 replies 44 participants last post by  Greaseball 
#1 ·
#52 ·
Quote:
I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
Sad, but true!
 
#53 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by MotherNatrsSon
Are you saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body?

do you think any reasonable person, in this case female, would chose an abortion if she really did not have to?
MNS
i am not saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body. if she wants to cut off her leg, or her arm, fine. but when she has an abortion she is not only deciding about HER body. she is also deciding about the body of her own CHILD, tearing it out of the place it should have been safe & warm & protected.

& are you seriously asking me if i think a reasonable woman has ever had an abortion that she did not HAVE to have? um, yes. nearly 5,000 times a day, i believe.

Originally posted by TiredX2
Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?

why should the mother be afforded more rights than the child? most of us here, i would say at least 90%, are ADAMANT that it is a child's BIRTHRIGHT to be nourished, for as long as he wants, by the milk from his mother's breasts. & yet you can advocate abortion, saying the mother has the RIGHT to control HER body. what if a mother just doesn't want to use HER breasts to feed her infant?

i am genuinely confused.

HOWEVER, to answer the OP, yes, i think partial birth abortion should be illegal. i think 2nd trimester abortion should be illegal. i think having an abortion when you are one week pregnant should be illegal.

but that is just me. i realize i am in the minority. but i am here.
 
#54 ·
In the US each day, there are 4,000 abortions.

Every fourth unborn child is aborted.

An unborn baby is killed every 20 seconds in America.

95% of abortions are done as birth control, 1% are done because of rape/incest, 1% because of fetal abnormalities, and 3% due to the mother's health problems.

(In a book written about abortions due to rape,...) 192 women were interviewed. These women had had abortions after they became pregnant from rape. Nearly all the women said that they regretted the abortion, and over 90% said they would discourage other rape victims from choosing abortion.

Child abuse has gone up 500% since the legalization of abortion.

Out of all women who have abortions, 75% say they had an abortion because the baby would have interfered with their life; 66% say that they couldn't have afforded a baby; and 50% said they didn't want to be a single mother or were having problems with their partner.

14,000 abortions are done because of rape/incest. (This only makes up about 1% of all abortions.)

23% of abortions occur at 9-10 weeks, 11% at 11-12 weeks, 7% at 13-15 weeks, 4% at 16-20 weeks, and 1% for 21-40 weeks.

read this. do you feel like crying? if not, READ IT AGAIN!
 
#57 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by joesmom
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & The Allen Guttmacher Institute
Please post the link?

Another interesting little anecdote rom NPR tonight. They said that the less education a woman had, the more likely she was to support this ban.

Hmmm....

MNS
 
#59 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by me&3
My sister ended a pregnancy at 15 weeks, with unbelievable agony and heartache. It was a very much wanted child, but tragically, it was not viable. She was told by her doctors that there was actual danger to her own life if she would carry to term, and the baby would never live. Very sorrowfully, she and my bil decided to terminate.

I am aghast that there is no provision in the law for something of this kind.
Not eager to get into this debate. But the law would not have affected your sister in the slightest. It specifically prohibits one procedure, which AFAIK is not used at 15 weeks.

Unfortunately the media is hyping this up to be the end of all abortions, or even the end to all late term abortions. Can't imagine why they'd want to do that.
: It's not. Read the law:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c108umnmPa::

The specific ban is on procedures in which:

Quote:
the person performing the abortion --
`(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
`(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus
 
#61 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by grisandole
My opinion, and this will go a bit OT since I really want to address what Barbara is saying about crisis preg. centers.

I think that it's gross and wrong to have a partial birth abortion BUT in the medically necessary cases mentioned above, they should absolutely have that right.....though I wonder the same thing as Celestial- why can't they stop the heart before the actual procedure? So, imo, if it's medically necessary it should be legal. But, if it isn't, I don't agree with it. Just my opinion.

About crisis preg centers- I've been thinking about them alot lately because I really want to start one in my area. I feel that there are women who are scared/poor/confused, etc. that would certainly choose keeping the baby over having an abortion if they had help (both emotional and financial) from caring people at a crisis preg. center. That being said, the majority of centers that I'm aware of seem to offer mimimal financial assistance; and what help is offered has tons of strings attached, usually in the form of religion being shoved down the mom's throat. Now, I'm not anti religion, or anti Christianity; and I don't care if a preg center preaches or anything. BUT, a lot only offer help if the women start going to meetings or church or such; and if a family "takes in" a pregnant woman, they are again, usually very religious and force it on the woman. I say this not as a generalization; Ive seen it. One woman I know who did this (took in pregnant women, not teens but adults) had curfews for the moms, they HAD to go to church and bible study, and couldn't have men over at all. Now, I can agree with not wanting a buch of guys over your house, but curfews and "morality" standards for a grown woman, come on!!! The local crisis preg center doesn't give things away, the women have to earn them by earning what they call "mommie bucks"; each time the woman shows up for a parenting class, appointment, BIBLE STUDY, etc, they get $1 in mommie bucks. The can then spend them at the "store"; outfits are 1-2 dollars, car seats are 10; A heck of alot of crap to go through for used clothes and car seats. And ime, these women are also encouraged to give their babies up for adoption instead of keeping them.

So, my rambling point is that crisis preg centers don't help the way they need to. What would work is offering free clothes, strollers, cribs, etc; parenting/breastfeeding info; and most importantly- helping these women financially- and that can be as simple as helping them apply for state health care, welfare, food stamps, housing, etc. Many women aren't informed about their options, and if they had someone helping them maybe they could get some help and actually make it.

Ugh. I'm sorry, I do believe that crisis preg centers are well intended, but are pushing their own agenda; and to say "Well, they can get help there" is such a cop out. A few free outfits doesn't help pay the bills.

Sorry for rambling; this is my issue at the moment; I'd really like to start a "REAL" crisis preg center someday

Kristi
There is a pregnancy crisis center like this near my house- it is a home for pregnant mothers to live in while pregnant/ after the birth, and to help them learn to support themselves & their child. I have donated some of my unused baby equipment to them. They truly are grateful for all donations.

I don't think the Partial Birth Abortion is at all about the health of the mother. How can partially delivering your child & then killing it be of any benefit to the mother?
 
#62 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by mahdokht
If you have something legitimate to contribute, then by all means do so. If you can do nothing but accuse those who disagree with of being ignorant and/or uneducated then you might as well keep your opinions to yourself. They really aren't worth being aired.
:
It wasn't my opinion if you read at all. It was from NPr. They did a survey andthat was ne of the results they said onair during "All Things Considered" tonight.

Please do not accuse me of "my opinon" being "out of line" when I clearly stated it was from NPR

You can listen to it online here:

http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/index.html

It isn't just the media "hyping" it up. Thee co-author of the bill stated there is more restrictive legislation on the way. Maybe it is hype but based on the pattern of chipping away at rights, I'd call it a first step towards more restrictions.

MNS
 
#63 ·
Can someone please tell me why it is okay for one person to decide when it is acceptable to end another's life? Who has the right to decide that an individual, born or unborn, is not worthy to live? If an unborn child is not a person, than it does not matter what is done to the tissue growing within the woman's body. If an unborn child is a person, than it is wrong to end its life, even if that is accomplished using so-called "humane" methods.

We can't have it both ways: either the fetus is a person, with rights, or it isn't a person, in which case it doesn't matter what we do with it.

As far as PBA is concerned, it is extremely brutal. If I decided that my pregnant cat, horse, dog, cow could no longer support the fetus, and paid the vet to perform such an operation on the animal, I would be called an animal abuser. In fact, I highly doubt that my vet would perform such a barbaric procedure.

Why then, is it acceptable to perform it on the most vulnerable members of our society? If the baby is not viable (and who really knows? Doctors are not gods, as I've read in so many posts here on these boards), what does it hurt to perform a C-sec, or allow the mom to birth vaginally, and then let the baby die in its parents arms? Non-viability does not diminish a person's worth. It makes it all the more precious, since we know that that person's time on this earth is so very short.

All babies (wanted or not) deserve to be loved and cherished, simply because they are a human being. We do not have the right to decide that certain babies are not worth bringing into the world, even those of us with nice titles and letters attached to our names.
 
#64 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by gardenmommy
Can someone please tell me why it is okay for one person to decide when it is acceptable to end another's life? Who has the right to decide that an individual, born or unborn, is not worthy to live? If an unborn child is not a person, than it does not matter what is done to the tissue growing within the woman's body. If an unborn child is a person, than it is wrong to end its life, even if that is accomplished using so-called "humane" methods.

We can't have it both ways: either the fetus is a person, with rights, or it isn't a person, in which case it doesn't matter what we do with it.
Why is it better for you to decide for any other person what is best in their particular circumstances? And you have pretty much hit the nail on the head of the whole issue. I asked the same question in an earlier post now I would like you to answer it.

Do the rights of the unborn fetus supercede the rights of the mother? Do the mother's rights disappea as soon as she becomes pregnant and the right of the fetus is the only right in existance at that time.

Here is another one:

Have you ever read "The Haindmaid's Tale"?

Your line of thought is relagating women to non-person status as soon as they are determined to be pregnant.

MNS
 
#65 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
You ask some good questions Gardenmommy.

Just imagine what PETA would say to someone who performed an abortion on an animal, just because the owner didn't want to bother with a baby animal. Good Gosh!! Can you imagine the outrage.

What determines if it is a "fetus" or "baby" is of course the will of the mother.

Way down deep I think many many women can and do see the damage that abortion does, not only to their psyche, but of course to the life of the baby.

Of course most won't ever admit that a death has been wrought at the hand of an abortion Dr.... its just to painful to admit.....and the biggest denial ever I believe is when abortion is pooh poohed as not a big deal, or not really "killing a baby".

The world (our country) will soon pay for the massacre and holocaust of millions of children....its just a matter of time as God said "vengence is mine............I pity and grieve for what is coming, but we humans who take things into our own hands and play god will deserve it, every bit of it.....that is unless there is forgiveness , repentance, and change, on the side of those who do these evil acts.

.....but of course most of you know my POV,


I have a sister who is a director of a CPC ( Crisis preg. center).... and believe me they DO support, care, and minister to the pregnant women up and through until the baby is born and then help the women with adoption and/or single motherhood. They even pay for medical care, transportation, etc. SHe (my sister) has had many young mothers stay at her home and has arranged hundreds of mothers to stay in home of caring people who actually pay and provide financial and emotional support. I personally know many families who minister in that way. It is a quiet ministry happening all over this country, yet you hear nothing about it, because the people are not out for publicity. Just out to back up their words of with actions.
You almostsound like GW..."You are either with us or against us." "Them evildoers."

It is not an appropriate place to lay your xian guilt trip on people like is done when you "minister" to the confused women at your special care centers.

Maybe you should not pass such quick judgements and re read the book you quote from so adamantly in your defense. There is a "special" place for those that "show a "form" of godly devotion and prove false to it's power" as well.

You hear nothing about it? I am quite aware of the "ministry" that these women go through. The good old fashioned "Fire and Brimstone" xian guilt trip, fundamentalist kind of ministry.

The red word is the key word in the post imho. It is a fundamentalist xian agenda that fuels the wole "pro-life" agenda.

The fact that women become non person's with this line of thought is of no concern to these people. All that matters IS the fetus.

Maybe that is because some fundamental xians view women as "property" of the husband and not really having personhood of their own to begin with. They are submissive and subservient, on a par with livestock a "husband" may keep in his barn. Isn't that where "husbandry" came from? Animal husbandry, seeing how we are now comparing people and animals. Women to cows or horses...

I wonder if these same women would be so quick to pass judgement on others if it were actually a matter of women once again having no rights at all. Being relegated to non-person status as soon as they become pregnant.

MNS
 
#66 ·
Sorry, but I just don't get why this would be necessary. I consider myself pro-choice (though I would NEVER have an abortion!) but I think if there really is a medical reason for this, why does the baby's skull have to be evacuated?

My stepmother was 29 weeks pg and it was a danger to her life and the life of the baby. Rather than having a partial birth abortion, she had a c/s, though the baby was not expected to live anyway. Well, it lived. She was then told the baby would be brain-damaged. She's a normal 14-year-old.

That's what I would do - if my pregnancy was risking my life, I would have the baby delivered and hope for the best. If I were carrying a fetus that had no chance of surviving soon after delivery, I would deliver it anyway. I think a baby who is going to die at birth deserves to die in a loving, respectful environment and in a painless way. I'd want to hold it for the few minutes we could have together.

I read the example of the 20-inch head thing, but I would rather have a c/s even if the baby was going to die. (If it was already dead, I'd go for the vaginal delivery.) Remember, babies do feel pain! Even unborn ones! I would not put my unborn child through pain just because I wanted to avoid surgery or see a normal looking baby.

The only way I could possibly think of having an abortion is in the case of ectopic pregnancy, when there really is no chance of the baby surviving, and a good chance of the mother dying if it's not done. I'd make them be gentle though.

I'm sure I will now be thought of as a disgrace to the pro-choice movement. But if a mother has the choice of delivering a dead baby and a live one, and in either case does not have to go any farther along in her pregnancy, why on earth would she choose the dead one?
 
#69 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by skellbelle
I don't believe that. Do you have objective stats to back up that statement?
This regarding my statement:

The vast majority of "social" abortions occur before 12 weeks, partial birth abortions are generally only given in extream situation with much trepidation, agony and grief.

What part don't you believe/want backed up.
 
#70 ·
Just to add something in here...

Just because the D&X procedure is used doesn't mean that something can't be done first.

At the worst point of my boys' TTTS, when we were getting pressure to sacrifice Dylan so that at least Tom would make it, we were told that they would do a cord ligation or an injection into his heart to stop it. I don't see why a compassionate doctor would not offer the injection to a grieving couple. Perhaps they do...but where would it be recorded?

As a buddhist, I have very strong pro-life leanings (and not just about abortion). However...having faced a very difficult situation, I cannot in good conscience villianize parents who have had to make that choice now that I have had a very small taste of what they have to go through.

I believe those who have not faced a situation where they were offered the D&X or a late term abortion should not speak ill of those that have. Period. You don't know how agonizing it is. You don't bother to see that the vast majority of those folks would have traded places with those longed-for children in a heartbeat. If you can't have compassion, if you can only make accusatory statements and want to hurt those folks even more...then perhaps this concern solely for the children is a shield rather than a true motivation.

Knocked up college students wanting a way out don't have late term abortions. It's very hard to get one. Don't believe everything that Focus on the Family and other similar groups upchuck on this one. If you want to save these babies, then start donating to the March of Dimes, and research organizations, that maybe will provide answers and perhaps even prevention.

But sometimes really horrible things happen, naturally. And it makes me sick that people already horribly, horribly wounded should have to deal with others who are all too easily able to distance themselves from the situation and see it as black and white.
 
#71 ·
My opinion... I think PBS is a disgusting practice, turns my stomach to imagine the pain that fetus sustains. I see no difference in carrying the baby to term, giving birth, killing it, tossing it into a duffel bag and throwing it into the trash and PBA. The only difference is one is considered homicide and abuse of a corpse and the other is a medical procedure.

I have no plans to read this entire thread and your flames back and forth, but the OP asked if anyone had an opinion and this is mine.
 
#72 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
.

Just imagine what PETA would say to someone who performed an abortion on an animal, just because the owner didn't want to bother with a baby animal. Good Gosh!! Can you imagine the outrage.

.
Not sure where you get this idea. When you have a fertile sexually active outdoor cat spayed, there may be another litter in the uterus. It is disposed of along with the animal's reproductive organs.
 
#73 ·
TiredX2 wrote:

Quote:
Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?
So that her child doesn't have to experience a painful and agonizing death by being stabbed in the head and ripped apart while still alive! I should hope that a compassionate woman would want her child's only moments outside of her womb to be as peaceful as possible and allow her child to die with dignity.
 
#74 ·
AmyB wrote:

Quote:
I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
This is not an educated statement. There are many ways to save the mother's life without brutally killing the child! In the stated cases where the mother's life was in danger it was because she could not carry the pregnancy to term. There is no reason that this type of inhumane abortion has to be performed. It is simply emotional propaganda.
 
#75 ·
T

Quote:
What would work is offering free clothes, strollers, cribs, etc; parenting/breastfeeding info; and most importantly- helping these women financially- and that can be as simple as helping them apply for state health care, welfare, food stamps, housing, etc.
The crisis pregnancy centers in the greater metropolitian area where I live do offer this assistance free.

I understand the concern that these centers are often religious and many woman don't want to be preached at, however the help is offered free. Also if a woman is living with another family I don't think it is too much to ask her to be home by a reasonable hour, and follow the house rules, afterall, everyone in the household will also be making concessions to accommodate having her and her child living with them.

I do agree with you that centers and homes that are not religious would be great, but the fact is that it almost always has been religious groups that have reached out to those in need.

Sorry...back to the PBA topic...
 
#76 ·
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query...p/~c108umnmPa::

Quote:
the person performing the abortion --
`(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
`(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus
Ladies, after reading exactly what this bill is banning can you still say that you find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying?
 
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