"Partial Birth Abortion" Ban - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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#151 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 12:58 PM
 
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Delilah - IMO when you give the govt. the right to make decisions for you and yours, you give away rights - period.

What worries me is the sanctamonious, condescending, tone that many of the posters take in regards to abortion - if you don't like D&X then don't have one - it is a choice that hopefully two persons will make together without the interference of others. It is someone else's decision - not yours.
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#152 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 01:13 PM
 
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Originally posted by 3boys4us
What worries me is the sanctamonious, condescending, tone that many of the posters take in regards to abortion - if you don't like D&X then don't have one - it is a choice that hopefully two persons will make together without the interference of others. It is someone else's decision - not yours.
I guess with this attitued you would have to say that it was fine for a mother and doctor to stab a 6 month old baby in the back of the head because she has cancer (or other fatal disease) and won't live long anyway. It would be a hardship on the parents to have to endure the mental anguish, physical endurance and financial responsibility required to care for her in the next few months before she dies anyway. I guess we should not have laws prohibiting this type of thing because it is not the government or society's decision if this child should be treated humanely.

This logic alludes me. :

Protecting children from child abuse is not taking away women's rights!
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#153 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 01:33 PM
 
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I just found this thread and don't really have the time to read all 8 pages, but I do have a question I would like to ask. I will probably be blasted for this, but here goes. As I was reading the first page I saw a lot of people saying that it's the mother's right to chose what to do with her body. Someone then replied something to the affect that they had never seen a child asked to be aborted. That comment kinda made a lightbulb go off for me. Isn't that the same arguement some have used to circumcision? That it's harming the baby and none of them have ever asked for it. Before I thought of this my intent was to comment on how I, personally can not see how people with children they love and adore can be for abortion at any stage, but most especially late term abortion. But that's just me. Now, my question is, how can people who are so against cicumcision be for abortion. Isn't it both harming a child? Of course, I did have my son circ and had never heard otherwise. I have been looking into it for future children and think my own thoughts here have pretty much decided it for me. I did not mean to be arguementative, just honestly wondering. Thanks.

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#154 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 01:41 PM
 
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Again, a 6 month old fetus is not a 6 month old child. If it were your child would be 9 months old or so, at birth.
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#155 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 01:52 PM
 
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Originally posted by Potty Diva
Again, a 6 month old fetus is not a 6 month old child. If it were your child would be 9 months old or so, at birth.
Yes and that is my point both would be killing a human child. If a country does not permit killing a child after it is born, than how can it condone killing one as it is being born?
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#156 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is really frustrating to read the replys that make it *clear* they have not read any/all of the links! I really don't think we are considering people getting their chuckles off causing their unborn child pain--- these are people faced with HORRIBLE choices, who generally very much want a child, etc... Until you are ready to care for every child born basically brain dead, I don't think it is fair to blast these parents who decide that they *need* this proceedure.

 

 

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#157 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 03:18 PM
 
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Yet another thing I don't understand - if a baby has no brain, wouldn't it have no heartbeat and no movement as well? If there were no heartbeat late in the 1st trimester, a mother probably would have an ultrasound and would then be told there was no brain. She could then decide whether to continue with the pregnancy or have a 1st tri abortion. Why on earth would she have to carry the baby to the 3rd tri and then abort it?

It probably doesn't make sense that I can support one form of abortion and not another, but I just don't make good sense.

When people ask me how old my dd is, for practical purposes I will tell them she is 22 mos but I will always think of her as 31 mos.
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#158 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally posted by Greaseball Yet another thing I don't understand - if a baby has no brain, wouldn't it have no heartbeat and no movement as well? If there were no heartbeat late in the 1st trimester, a mother probably would have an ultrasound and would then be told there was no brain. She could then decide whether to continue with the pregnancy or have a 1st tri abortion. Why on earth would she have to carry the baby to the 3rd tri and then abort it?
Did you read my post and the full story at the link provided? Here is the quote again:
Quote:
She was unable to absorb the amniotic fluid and it was puddling into my uterus. This poor precious child had a lethal neurological disorder and had been unable to move for almost two months. The movements I had been feeling over the last few months had been nothing more than bubbles and fluid. Her chest cavity was unable to rise and fall to stretch her lungs to prepare them for air. It was as if she had no lungs at all. Her vital organs were atrophying. Our darling little girl was going to die.
These women aren't lying and they aren't stupid, they have had to make excrutiating decisions under circumstances you can't fathom.
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Lots of mothers have difficulty healing. Major surgery is not supposed to be easy. I'd still choose it if there were any chance at all the baby would live. Lots of diabetics do not have difficulty with childbirth.
But, dear Greaseball, you don't get to make that choice for anyone else. Not yet, and hopefully never. This particular diabetic stated that her doctor feared her ability to heal from a cesarean. Don't you think her doctor is a better judge than you?
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#159 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 03:49 PM
 
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and barbara... Your posts are so heartfelt... I know you feel strongly about this. But, I feel like you aren't really listening to the other side. What about the baby with severe hydrocephalus whose head has swollen to 20 cm in diameter? That baby will die and cannot be delivered vaginally without killing its mother, too. A c-section would result in a much larger incision than average, multiplying the risks of surgery and quite possibly injuring that mother's future fertility. None of us is saying that intact D&X is a really great procedure and should be everyone's first choice. None of us is saying that the babies don't matter. We are saying that there are circumstances that might warrant it. You seem unwilling to see this...

And, like I mentioned earlier, many states already have bans on late term abortion for all but serious medical reasons.

I'm not going to say that these babies don't feel pain. I have no idea. I would wholeheartedly support the use of some kind of anaesthetic that would make certain the baby can't feel pain. But... since we're on the topic, perhaps a swift death from a needle in the head (and, most sites I have read state aspiration of the fluids in the cranium is done with a syringe, not plunging scissors...) is more humane than minutes gasping for breath?
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#160 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 07:19 PM
 
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This particular diabetic stated that her doctor feared her ability to heal from a cesarean. Don't you think her doctor is a better judge than you?
Time has shown that I am smarter than nearly every doctor I have had the pleasure of dealing with. The doctor who predicted my sister's death (and then brain damage) was wrong. Smart mother decided not to have an abortion just because of what stupid doctor said.

No, it's not my choice. All I can do is choose not to have one myself. I don't think I'd want it to be my choice - too much responsibility! But I still don't understand, and still will question.
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#161 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 08:13 PM
 
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I guess with this attitued you would have to say that it was fine for a mother and doctor to stab a 6 month old baby in the back of the head because she has cancer (or other fatal disease) and won't live long anyway. It would be a hardship on the parents to have to endure the mental anguish, physical endurance and financial responsibility required to care for her in the next few months before she dies anyway. I guess we should not have laws prohibiting this type of thing because it is not the government or society's decision if this child should be treated humanely.
What is it that eludes you? It is not a baby (nor is YOURS) it is a fetus. It is dependent on the body that it inhabits.

Like it or not what people do with their bodies can be truly hideous or can it be life saving and that is their choice. It is also the choice of a woman (and hopefully a man) that decides to have a D&X.

We have no way of knowing what her life situation is, what anguish or emotion she went through to come to this deicsion. So who are you to judge? Are you (not you personally but the objective) better then a person (or a couple) that came to this decision?

Like I said before - we are related to a couple that had one. It wasn't easy. I only knew about it afterward and they were afraid to tell anyone since they didn't want to be judged. Am I better person since I have never had a D&X? Can I relate? All I can do is offer my condolences and hope that they can make peace with their decision. (Actually it happened quite a while ago).

Who are we to judge anyone for their decisions? This is not a baby laying on the ground but a fetus confined within someone else's body. IMO I know I have no right to tell anyone on this thread what to do with their body and I sincerely beleive that no one on this thread has the right to tell me what to do with mine.

So yes I beleive that when we criticize someone else for their choice with what to do with THEIR body - it is sanctamonious and condenscending.
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#162 of 175 Old 10-25-2003, 08:33 PM
 
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Here's another thing I don't understand - sometimes, when women are offered the choice of having the fetus anesthetized for a 2nd tri abortion, they refuse! I just don't get it. Are they just trying to convinve themselves the fetus will feel nothing? Or would painkillers for the fetus somehow hurt the woman?
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#163 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 02:36 AM
 
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I guess it just comes down to the fact that some people don't want to think of an aborted baby as a human. I guess this makes it easier to make that choice, and I do understand that, I've been there. I just wish we lived in a more humane society.
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#164 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 03:25 AM
 
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Originally posted by barbara
I guess it just comes down to the fact that some people don't want to think of an aborted baby as a human. I guess this makes it easier to make that choice, and I do understand that, I've been there. I just wish we lived in a more humane society.
You mean one where people wouldn't assume the worst of parents who have had to make such a horrible choice?

What makes you so sure that the women who have late-term abortions don't think their babies were human? Did you even look at the website that was posted earlier, the support site? Do those people strike you as folks who considered their babies subhuman?

If you've really been there, you know DAMN well that NOTHING makes it an easier choice one way or the other! How can you possibly say that?!?! That iis absolutely heartless.

In my situation, I chose "winner takes all" (in that if Dylan died like they thought he was going to, I'd lose Tom too, rather than do selective reduction). But I'm telling you, I am in NO WAY a better or more strong person than someone who made a different choice. Perhaps I was a coward in a way, because I didn't rush in to save the sure thing. It very easily could have not turned out as well as it did, and for a long time I was in the very real position of choosing the inevitable death of one or both of my sons. If Dylan had died and caused Tom's death, it would have been my fault. If I chose to selectively reduce, Dylan's death would have been my fault. I know very well what it is like to feel like you're f*cked either way.

So...I guess I have more empathy and compassion than most for folks who are facing total personal devastation on one side and the wrath of Pro-Life zealots on the other.
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#165 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 11:36 AM
 
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Kitty, I'm sorry for your pain and those of the women that have made this choice. I do not blame the parents that are given such limited choices to make, I blame the medical community that is not making humane choices available. Just as I do in the cases of vaxs, circs, and unnecessary c-secs.

There are many people that do not believe that and unborn fetus is human, and therefore do not think that aborting a baby is killing a human. I do not understand this logic, and this is what I was refering to.

I do grieve for your pain and that of all mothers who lose a baby either by miscarrage, stillbirth, or abortion. I'm sorry for my insensitivity.
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#166 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 01:12 PM
 
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I believe fetuses are human. I believe they have the potential to be children. I just believe that women deserve the sovreignty to make decisions regarding their bodies, and don't believe that potential children have more value than women.

But, that really isn't the issue on this thread. Barbara, did you read the link I posted? Did you read this woman's story? I don't think you did, because you would know that she very much felt that she was losing a child. A much wanted child. That would have died either way, and she made an agonizing decision to abort. A procedure that she feels was more gentle and peaceful than a birth would have been. She is still pro-life, Christian, Republican... Would you please read her whole story? Read about how the medical professionals treated her and her child and tell me that it wasn't humane.
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#167 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I honestly don't know how anyone could read that heartbreaking story & still feel that this proceedure should be illegal. To say that that woman *has* to risk not only her ability to have future children, but her very life as to not have an abortion...

 

 

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#168 of 175 Old 10-26-2003, 11:43 PM
 
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Has there ever been a case of a baby shooting out so fast that the doctor could not perform the D&X? If so, what happened?
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#169 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by tara
I just believe that women deserve the sovreignty to make decisions regarding their bodies, and don't believe that potential children have more value than women.
It's interesting to see people whose beliefs make them feel totally invincible in changing another person's beliefs just as dearly held.

To this statement I have quoted I respond becasue it the core of my belief that every fetus has right to life and is a human being.

You say a woman has the sovreignty to make decisions regarding her body. Well killing a baby is not making a decision over her body - it is making a decision over someone else's who has no voice to speak for him or herself.

I see it as paramount to murdering a child who is alive outside of the womb. A little tissue and a little fluid spearating him or her from the air we breathe does not make them some disposable "Object".

Partial birth abortion is barbaric and very evil in my opinion. Yes I have read all your links.
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#170 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 12:33 AM
 
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To this statement I have quoted I respond becasue it the core of my belief that every fetus has right to life and is a human being.

You say a woman has the sovreignty to make decisions regarding her body. Well killing a baby is not making a decision over her body - it is making a decision over someone else's who has no voice to speak for him or herself.

I see it as paramount to murdering a child who is alive outside of the womb. A little tissue and a little fluid spearating him or her from the air we breathe does not make them some disposable "Object".

Partial birth abortion is barbaric and very evil in my opinion. Yes I have read all your links.
I guess this is another vote for "no rights for women as soon as the become pregnant".

The difference between a fetus and a child is that the child can survive outside of the mother. Up to a certain point in the process that is not even a possibility and for awhile longer only by playing god and a few million dollars in machinery and resources iis it possible.

With that attitude, women become nothing more than breeding stock....

MNS
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#171 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by MotherNatrsSon
I guess this is another vote for "no rights for women as soon as the become pregnant".

The difference between a fetus and a child is that the child can survive outside of the mother. Up to a certain point in the process that is not even a possibility and for awhile longer only by playing god and a few million dollars in machinery and resources iis it possible.

With that attitude, women become nothing more than breeding stock....

MNS
Once gain a statement I find as a gross over simplification of an issue with many facets.

In about 95% of the cases no - it means a woman becoming responsible for her actions and her own reproductive responsibility.

In about 2% of the cases it 's about a woman dealing with the falability of her contraception device - and also her reproductive responsibility

In 1% of the cases it is a woman being vicitimzed by a violent man who has fallen through the cracks of society - and it is a criminal problem for which the fetus is not responsible - nor should he or she have to pay the price if his or her life with.

In the remainder of the cases it is a stew of the different aspects various people have cited on here as a right to kill a baby.

We right to lifers get chastised for having righteous indignation... well I find that pro-choice people - with this "breeding stock" and women's rights first and always" shpiel are no less guilty of self-righteousness... it's just another side of the coin.
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#172 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 08:55 AM
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A very difficult subject. Not one that can be discussed with ease and at some point we must step back and agree to disagree.

Overall respectful discussion has dominated the thread but some posts have stepped toward tension that could result in us closing it to posting. This is one of those topics that we will move very quickly to close if we see things starting to get out of hand. Abortion discussion is very emotional and painful for so many in our community and debate often creates even more pain and hurt. Let's keep this thread as calm and compassionate as possible. If you can't do that then please step back and let others try to do so.


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#173 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally posted by oatmeal
We right to lifers get chastised for having righteous indignation... well I find that pro-choice people - with this "breeding stock" and women's rights first and always" shpiel are no less guilty of self-righteousness... it's just another side of the coin.
I was going to end my participation in this debate, but I just have to jump back in and applaud this statement.

Very well said, oatmeal.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind...but nobody is going to change mine, either. I'll agree to disagree on the subject.

Every baptized Christian is, or should be, someone with an actual (disturbing) experience, ... a close encounter, with God; someone who, as a result, becomes a disturbing presence to others. - Fr. Anthony J. Gittins, A Presence That Disturbs
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#174 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 11:39 AM
 
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We right to lifers get chastised for having righteous indignation... well I find that pro-choice people - with this "breeding stock" and women's rights first and always" shpiel are no less guilty of self-righteousness... it's just another side of the coin.
I wouldn't call it "righteous". In fact no one that I could see said anything about women's rights - (I am not sure why you brought it up). We did talk about a person's right to oversee their own body.

What I see is a choice vs. a personal notion about life. If one feels that life begins whenever -great. If one decides to have an abortion for whatever - great. It doesn't affect you - it affects the people who are involved.

IMO pro-lifers involve themselves in someone's decision due to their (pro-life) beliefs. But what about afterwards? What about prior?

If this is how you feel great - but don't expect your beliefs to be universal. That this tends to be a white, Christian movement is something. It is a Taliban-like - what's next deciding that women shouldn't work because their place is home with the kids? Shall we enforce a rule on that as well?

There probably is a whole subcontext about race, class and social responsibility.
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#175 of 175 Old 10-27-2003, 02:34 PM
 
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I guess this is another vote for "no rights for women as soon as the become pregnant".
Well, this may sound terribly backward, but I believe certain pregnant women should give up some "rights." Since when is it a right to drink and smoke when you are pregnant? Why is it ok to go on a starvation diet? (Yes, some women - and doctors - still think it's the way to go.)

Some right-to-lifers see nothing wrong with these behaviors, because after all, "can't have a woman getting too fat, and she can drink if she wants to, she's an adult!"

I did lose some rights when I became pg. In some matters, the unborn really is more important.
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