Choice- illness or vaccine? - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-30-2004, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am still finding the whole thing really hard. I can't bear the thought of my precious daughter being so very ill. I have read loads on vaccines and not yet found anything positive about them, but still am unsure about my choice.

What I am wondering is: if you choose not to vaccinate, does that mean that your child WILL get measles, whooping cough, tetanus etc? By not vaccinating am I saying that I am willing for my child to get one of these illnesses with all its threats of permanent damage or even death. Am I saying by not vaccinating I am taking a risk in my child having horrendous suffering or even losing her?

Say then I continue not to vax- what if my child doesn't catch any of these in her childhood, does that mean she is under threat from them as an adult when it could be more dangerous? Is this going to be a lifelong worry about her health?

Is the only choice illness or vaccine, or can they get through without ever having a childhood illness?
~Amanda~

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Old 04-30-2004, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mand

What I am wondering is: if you choose not to vaccinate, does that mean that your child WILL get measles, whooping cough, tetanus etc? ~Amanda~

there is no guarantee either way that anyone will get anything or not get anything.

even if you DO vax your dc, dc may still contract one of those diseases- or something much worse.

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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Old 04-30-2004, 05:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mand
By not vaccinating am I saying that I am willing for my child to get one of these illnesses with all its threats of permanent damage or even death. Am I saying by not vaccinating I am taking a risk in my child having horrendous suffering or even losing her?
~Amanda~

research the diseases. you will find that most of them are harmless enough if treated appropriately and the body's immune system is working uninhibited by toxins.

this will likely put your mind at rest.

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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Old 04-30-2004, 05:52 PM
 
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Hi there

I am using homeopathy to strengthen my babies constitution and some homeopathic nosodes against specific diseases (but not all) its a personal decision but keeping your child's immune system as healthy as possible is the best thing if you choose not to vaccinate, and would encourage you to find a good homeopathic practitioner to work with,

Good Luck!

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Old 04-30-2004, 06:00 PM
 
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no those aren't the only choices and there is no way to know if your child will get sick or not regardless if she vaxed. What you do know is that if you don't vax you won't have to worry about vax reactions and complications. Vaxed people get the illnesses they are vaxed against all the time and sometimes they have gotten them from the vax itself like polio.

My 14 year old hasn't gotten any of the vaxed for diseases even after being exposed to some of them and she is not vaxed.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:34 PM
 
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I feel the same way, Mand... it's a tough choice. I'm pretty sure I won't be vacc'ing my second child, however I am keeping an open mind about spacing them out or postponing them until after his/her first birthday.

You could also choose which - if any of the vaccinations seem important to you and only have your child vacc'd for those. But most here would agree that pretty much none of them are important.

I don't know because I have not yet done a lot of research.

Good luck! Just stay informed and reasearch as much as you can until you feel comfortable with your decision.

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Old 04-30-2004, 06:39 PM
 
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There is also the not-often-mentioned reality that a certain amount of feverish illness is normal and even healthy for children. Note the huge increase in asthma and allergies in the last 20-30 years, for example. This is not a sign of kids growing up with healthy immune systems.

My grandchildren get sick fairly regularly. Sometimes they have fevers. My daughter does not, generally, do anything to bring down these fevers. So far the children have always recovered in good order. She notes that a good 24 hour fever usually is followed by a developmental/behavioral leap.

My big concern is that many children are not getting sick enough and when they do get sick it is overtreated so they do not get the benefits they should receive from the illness. We are trading normal childhood illnesses (generally short-term) for abnormal chronic illnesses (generally life-long). Beneficial for pharma companies but not for the children involved.

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Old 04-30-2004, 06:42 PM
 
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I totally agree Deborah, not to mention all the contaminants in the vaccine and their affect on the cells causes a lot of auto-immune diseases and cancer later on.

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Old 04-30-2004, 06:43 PM
 
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For me the decision not to vax was clear when I researched the illnessess and found they were not "deadly" or as dangerous as we are told and when I realized that vax are not as effective as they lead us to believe. Otherwise we would not see outbreaks of them in populations that have a vax rate of 96% and the vax kids getting sick. My oldest had chicken pox when she was 2 really bad, she ended up with some infected pox marks and she has some scars that have faded, yet I would rather this then the vax that does not carry lifelong immunity, that contains MSG and other by products,and risk her getting them when she is an adult where it may end up as shingles. My mother-in-law has shingles and has had it for the past 8 months, very, very painful. There are no guarentees in life and I think thats what the vax companies have brainwashed us to think. If we vax our kids they won't get sick and that is so not true. Keep researching and good luck with your decison.
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Old 05-01-2004, 02:39 AM
 
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I was in the same boat as you when dd went for her 4 mon well-baby check (well-baby my ). I wasn't sure, I hadn't researched and I'm of the "well just to be on the safe side" variety of thinkers...

We almost didn't go for the 6 mon. check because it wound up getting postponed til she was 7 mon. But we did it anyway.

Live and learn. That was the last one we're taking her to. Dd is fine, 9 mon. next week, and I don't see any reason to go back at 12 mon. for the (as my ped put it) "the new and improved MMR!"

Since the last visit, I started reading, and reading, and reading. I've discussed with some friends and my mom and husband. I even asked my mom, "Didn't kids get measles?" Yes. "Did you know any that ever died?" No. Getting the measles or mumps was just apart of childhood.

My mother had scarlet fever and lived.



Here's novel concept. Kids getting childhood illnesses... and living!

Sorry, I don't mean to be so sarcastic, but the more I've read and learned the more I get. I truly wished I had listened to myself and not taken dd. It really was all my doing since dh hates hospitals and has an awful distrust of any doctor.

So definitely research, delay or decide not to do it. But either way get informed first so you know the pros and cons of either decision. Often times you will find that the disease is the lesser of the two evils...

There's also a great thread that helped me get started. It's The other vax information.

Good luck!
Nissa
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Old 05-01-2004, 11:28 AM
 
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I found this through http://www.vaccinationnews.com

http://www.theecologist.org/article.html?article=456

The story of how the polio "virus" was identified is fairly horrifying.

Nana
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Old 05-01-2004, 12:24 PM
 
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The grandson of a co-worker contracted scarlet fever and I had contact with this boy when I was pregnant. I called my doctor and he said scarlet fever is strep throat left untreated, so it really sounds scarier than it is.

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Old 05-01-2004, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the replies- I will keep on reading and keep thinking about this.

I suppose it doesn't help when once I took dd round for an emergency appointment as she had a red rash all over her ( I thought it was measles- it turned out to be an allergic reaction) and he said that I had no need to worry as she was vaccinated, i told him well actually she isn't to which he replied 'well then what do you expect'.

So if she ever got ill, I couldn't take her to him as it would be a case of it being all my fault. Then there is my next door neighbour harping on about measles and the WHO who are working in third world countires and do I know how many people are dying from it each yr (the thing is I am not as confident to voice my opinion back about those figures come from poor under developed countires with poor sanitation etc!! )

So I am living in a community that is not supportive of my choice, nor are most of my friends (even though dh now 32 ha never been vaxed and still here to tell the tale!)

A few months ago dd would have horrendous fevers that lasted for about 2 days- no other symptoms just fever- about 104 with an ear thermometer. There was only 1 case we had to go to A+E as she was refusing to drink (this was after playing with children who had then broke out in chicken pox- she never caught it even though has been exposed twice!) She was getting these temps about twice a month over a year period. It was hard as I was always worrying whether it was the start of a childhood illness. But touch wood she hasn't had any now for over 4 months.

This may sound silly- but what are the basic things you can do to keep them in optimum health?
~Amanda~

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Old 05-01-2004, 04:23 PM
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I vaxed my two oldest, not my three youngest.

When the youngest were two, a local family contracted Whooping cough (pertusis). My three unvaxes kids played with their two young kids once or twice a week, at our house. Mouthing toys, drooling, sneezing, etc. Indoors, cause it was winter and very cold.

My oldest rode the school bus with their oldest, they were friendly, but not hanging out together.

My oldst contracted the disease. Even though she was up-to-date on the vax. They just don't work the way we think they do. The rest of us took some heavy duty penicillin for 10 days. It made my dh sick, so he only took it for 3 or 4 days. We were all fine.

My daughter has permanent damage, affecting her when she runs.

I stopped worrying so much about my decision after this.

And none of my kids ever had measles, rubella, etc. Wee did vax for tetnus and did the dead polio (the one they use now, not the one commonly offered then) They all had chicken pox.

Good luck. THis was the toughest decision I ever made regarding health issues. I felt like if I picked wrong, I was playing Russiun Roulette.
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Old 05-01-2004, 04:52 PM
 
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One really great book is Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide by Aviva Jill Romm, who's a midwife and master herbalist. She walks through the vaccines and the disease they're intended to prevent, and gives information on how to treat the diseases if your child does come down with one.

Do children die from measles, whooping cough, polio, etc.? Yes, every day - in developing countries where nutrition is poor and sanitation even worse. In the US and UK, we are lucky to have good sanitation and healthy foods available (if we choose to take advantage of them!). We're just not in the same position as a mother in the slums of Delhi trying to feed eight kids on what she can find in the garbage dump behind a fancy hotel.

That being said, I feel that as a non-vaxing parent I have a great responsibility to my child to make sure his nutrition is really good (including vitamins, minerals, and probiotics) and that his immune system is developed through extended breastfeeding, plenty of exercise and sunshine, and not relying overmuch on fever reducers and antibiotics, etc.

Also, jasperab, on chickenpox and shingles - while I agree that it's better to have chickenpox while you're young rather than the vax, you should know that the virus is like herpes in that it lives in you forever, although your immune system keeps it beaten back. In later life, it can be expressed as shingles. Getting chickenpox as an adult for the very first time is much more serious, but your MIL's shingles outbreak is more likely than not from chickenpox that she had as a young child.

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Old 05-01-2004, 11:39 PM
 
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:04 AM
 
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I think it's wonderful that you are doing research and asking questions!

I just wanted to put my 2 cents in here about this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand
This may sound silly- but what are the basic things you can do to keep them in optimum health?
~Amanda~
I take my dd to see a chiropractor. Getting adjusted on a regular basis helps boosts the immune system.
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:11 AM
 
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It is such a hard choice and a scary one. I origanny chose to vax with much reservation untill my dd had two sever vaccine reactios in a row (we were a little slow and didn't connect the dots until after the second time it happened) Since then I have come to the conclusion that if you vax your child will definitely have exposure to the vaxxes and will either be ok with them or not. But you will know for sure and they still have the risk of getting the disease either from the vax or from someone else later down the road. If they aren't vaxed they may or may not even face the disease, if thet do they might have mild or no symptoms and they might get very sick. But chances are they will never see it. Or like with chicken pox for instance, it will be relitively benign and she will get through it with a little TLC and calamine.

good luck making your choice. And remember it isn't an all or nothing. If there are diseases you fear particularly then get the vax. If there are vaxes that particularly scare you skip those.

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Old 05-02-2004, 01:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lilyka
And remember it isn't an all or nothing. If there are diseases you fear particularly then get the vax. If there are vaxes that particularly scare you skip those.
Personally I am not sure that that would be a good decision. When you mess with the immune system, inject mercury, formaldehyde, antifreeze, antibiotic, all sort of wild viruses that have grown in monkey kidney, aborted fetuses, and mixed, stored, frozen, and what not, they you have altered the immune system and I would not trust it as much to take other diseases as easily.

I believe that the strongest immune system is left up to nature to develop without the interference of injections. A child is born with the ability to fight parasite, why wouldn't he be able to fight a virus? It makes no sense to doubt it.

If you can order the video from Dr. Tenpenny, it's really informative.
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally posted by Mand
What I am wondering is: if you choose not to vaccinate, does that mean that your child WILL get measles, whooping cough, tetanus etc? By not vaccinating am I saying that I am willing for my child to get one of these illnesses with all its threats of permanent damage or even death. Am I saying by not vaccinating I am taking a risk in my child having horrendous suffering or even losing her?
I think that in spite of vaxing, all of the germs, the measles, the pertusis, the diptheria, the tetnus, the polio, the mumps, the rubella, the hib b, pnuemonia, hepatitis, chicken pox, etc (did I leave any out?) are still swimming around in the environment. I don't believe that a vaccine just made these germs disappear. I think some strains remain, no matter what kind of vaccine is there.

I don't claim to know it all, but I have an idea that sickness happens when the immune system is distressed or disabled in some way. Vaccine or no vaccine. Kids do get sick. Adults get sick. It is going to happen. But whether they'll get measles or not, or wc or not, you just don't know. It is a chance. They have a better chance of not getting sick, or getting through something relatively easily if their immune systems are strong. So that's one goal for a lot of non vaxing moms. Keep the immune system strong and functioning and then take things as they come.

Like Quirky said, in poorly sanitized, poorly fed, bad living conditions, bad side effects and death are more common from diseases. I am also going to agree that it is not good enough to just say, I"m not going to vax, la la la. Everyone should research. Find out what causes the disease. What the symptoms are. How to treat them. What to do if they are severe. Know what you can do.

Also, to keep yourself and your kids as healthy as you can. Feed them whole unprocessed foods. Give them vitamins, and minerals and probiotics. Let them exercise. Make sure they sleep enough. All of these things.

Quote:
Say then I continue not to vax- what if my child doesn't catch any of these in her childhood, does that mean she is under threat from them as an adult when it could be more dangerous? Is this going to be a lifelong worry about her health?
I don't think anyone can predict what's going to happen. I like to think that an unvaxed people have a better chance of catching somethng when they are younger, that it will build their immune system, so by the time they are adults, they'll at least have a good chance of remaining somewhat unscathed.

My son is unvaxed, but so far, all he's caught for sure is whooping cough. He's been exposed to measles, he just didn't get them, or got a very light case. He hasn't been around chicken pox yet, but I'm not too worried. I'm pretty sure he'll come into contact with them sooner or later. I do feel pretty confident that he has been around a lot, he just hasn't caught much. The same thing with my daughter. She's been exposed to everything he has, and her worst sickness (not even that bad) has been a week long flu type of thing.

But, after that, she had a huge developmental spurt, like Deborah mentioned with her grandchildren up above. Ds has also done that, he'll get a fever for a day, or be down for a few days, but then he'll do a new thing. It really is amazing.

One of the biggest things to help me was finding doctors who know how to treat the diseases with natural methods, not just mask the symptoms with tylenol or antibiotics or something like that. They understand that something inside is causing the illness, and they find what that is, and they treat it, and it heals. In more plain english, because I feel like I'm rambling, they find out what the cause is, and why the person is sick, they don't just perscribe drugs.

It's a journey, whether you vax, or if you don't vax. You have to learn how to not be afraid, how to get to that place where you are comfortable with the decisions you've made and as confident as you can be about the unknowns.
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mand
This may sound silly- but what are the basic things you can do to keep them in optimum health?
~Amanda~

for the older ones, dont feed them junk food, make sure they eat nutritious meals anmd snacks. probiotics and excercise are very beneficial as well.

for the one you are expecting. BREATSFEED. that is the best protection from many ilnesses and disease. if i understand correctly, HIB is not a threat for exclusively bf infants.

l, <>< wife to my sweetie, proud mama to 3 cubs, 2 who clw & 1 that i i ep for . baby was evicted early by induction due to severe pre-e/hellp syndrome
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Old 05-02-2004, 03:39 PM
 
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I'm not an expert on this by any means (still doing my own research), but just wanted to chime in that my dh and his entire family were not vaccinated b/c they were Christian Scientists (dh isn't anymore though), and they never had any infectious diseases... dh's grandma, in particular is extremely healthy at at 86 looks like she's in her 70s... DH rarely got sick growing up, had perfect attendance at school etc... only within the past year has he gotten sick, and I attribute that to overwork and a poor diet (too much junk food and soda!).

My grandmother and her sister had all the "infectious" disease of their time- they had 3 quarantine signs up at once in their childhood (can't recall for which diseases though). Even though my grandmother has advanced Alzheimer disease, at 90 she is physically healthy except for arthritis. (very sad actually- body keeps going on and the mind is GONE). It wasn't scary for her when she was sick as a child- she and her sister were actually rather proud that they had so many signs on their house! (strange, I know)

My mother, on the other hand, never had chicken pox as a child, and nearly died when she caught it from me and my brother- her entire body was covered, head to toe. It was physically and emotionally very damaging to her. I wish she had had it as a child.

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Old 05-02-2004, 03:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand
What I am wondering is: if you choose not to vaccinate, does that mean that your child WILL get measles, whooping cough, tetanus etc?
I have passive immunity to Rubella. Never vaxed- never had it. Yet, I test immune.
Your child does not have to be directly exposed to develop immunity- perhaps if she was nursed she did develop passive immunity that stuck with her, maybe not. Even if exposed she could avoid not get immunity/catching it.
Even kids who are vaxed are not always immune- hence why most PG women are tested for Rubella during pregnancy. Most were vaxed yet many show no immunity.
There are no absolutes when it comes to passive immunity. And still some gray areas with active immunity ( having had the disease itself).
We work on having a healthy immune system, but also avoid direct exposure if I know ( I would never attend a pox party for example)
You might be interested in reading some works of Florence Nightengale. Her documentation of how disease would just spring up as if from no where led her and other past epidemiologists to come up with theories that the right conditions must be present for disease to flourish. Yes, some of that is outdated, but still facinating stuff- very homeopathic in nature.

PS as for 3rd world countries- well, they do not have access to good food and clean water and emergency care. We do. Although with most childhood diseases , emergency care is not even an issue. I did not take my child to the doc with the pox for example. I don't subscribe to the western model so I don't fall back on it either.
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