Diseases will return because ppl. don't vaccinate?? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 110 Old 02-26-2005, 11:20 AM
 
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Well it seems pretty obvious to me that the vaccine strain virus IS shed and so it IS capable of being transmitted to others. The question really is more about what it does once it gets to that second person. I wouldn't generally expect it to produce the clinical symptoms that we know as "measles" since it is attenuated & all. So why would anyone really care to look for it?
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#92 of 110 Old 02-26-2005, 05:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amnesiac
Well it seems pretty obvious to me that the vaccine strain virus IS shed and so it IS capable of being transmitted to others. The question really is more about what it does once it gets to that second person. I wouldn't generally expect it to produce the clinical symptoms that we know as "measles" since it is attenuated & all. So why would anyone really care to look for it?
I've done some careful reading and concerned that viral shedding may happen more frequently than I thought, and so secondary (and tertiary) transmission is possible, even likely -- though I still haven't encountered anything to convince me that it happens routinely. Given that it's been readily documented in other vaccines (some of which, like varivax, are a big financial boon to their producers), I'm still puzzled by why not a single case has been documented. In fact, viral shedding has sometimes even been spun as a good thing -- it's a way of "vaccinating" or "boosting" folks who wouldn't otherwise be vaxed. Granted, that'd be a harder sell these days. So I'm still convinced that it's a rare phenomenon, but I'll keep an open mind.

Measles and rubella might be able to hide in plain sight, but I'm less confident that congenital rubella syndrome would. And mumps is such a distinct clinical entity -- a low-grade unilateral case might masquerade as pyogenic lymphadenitis, but "classic mumps" should be instantly recognizable.

Which leads to amnesiac's notion of modified or sub-clinical infections. There may be a huge financial and political disincentive not to look for them, but it's an important question. Even if they produce no symptoms, these viruses can have serious consequences -- congenital rubella syndrome and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (what a mouthful) come to mind. And then there's the interesting notion of measles-induced immunosuppression.

So what I'd really like to see is studies of antibodies to M,M, and R in unvaxed children who are not known to have had clinical infections. MT, you mentioned a BMJ study that address this. I did a search but found nothing (so the archive I had access to only went back to 1994, I think). Do you know the date of the study, and do you have any more info that would help me find it?

Speaking of studies, I've been trying to track down the other abstract without success. If anyone's really interested in reading it, let me know and I'll try harder. Otherwise, I'm giving up.
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#93 of 110 Old 02-26-2005, 05:23 PM
 
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The classic symptom of mumps is painful swelling of one or both parotid glands, often obscuring the angle of the jaw. The pain is especially intense when tasting sour liquids (lemon juice and vinegar have provoked many a muffled scream.
http://www.drgreene.com/21_1146.html

If I had time I would dig further for the answer to my question but for now I thought I would ask you guys since you seem very knowledgable about the subject.

When the glands swell up from mumps, are they puss filled? I will explain in more detail when I get back, hopefully after you have answered but for now I haveta go.. Thanks!
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#94 of 110 Old 02-26-2005, 06:59 PM
 
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And mumps is such a distinct clinical entity -- a low-grade unilateral case might masquerade as pyogenic lymphadenitis, but "classic mumps" should be instantly recognizable.
Not necessarily. It's the same situation as measles- other things can clinically look just like it. Sort of screws up the whole historical data for mumps too:

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As lead researcher Dr. Irja Davidkin told Reuters Health, "It is difficult to clinically differentiate mumps from other conditions causing parotid gland swelling."...
To gain more information on the etiology of mumps-like illnesses, the researchers studied serum samples collected prospectively over a period of 15 years from 601 children and adolescents who had had such acute illnesses. Antibody testing ruled out mumps as a cause.

Viral infections were found in 84 cases (14%). Overall, Epstein-Barr virus was seen in 41 patients (7%), 24 cases (4%) met diagnostic criteria for parainfluenza 1, 2 or 3 and adenovirus was detected in 17 patients (3%). HHV-6 infection was found in 5 children.

Given these findings, the researchers point out that that careful laboratory-based diagnostic testing is important in the treatment of such patients.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/500284



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Even if they produce no symptoms, these viruses can have serious consequences -- congenital rubella syndrome and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (what a mouthful) come to mind. And then there's the interesting notion of measles-induced immunosuppression.
That's the point though. These are attenuated viruses that don't behave exactly like wild viruses. I would be extremely surprised to find them causing these serious consequences.
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#95 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 12:22 AM
 
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Originally posted by amnesiac
Not necessarily. It's the same situation as measles- other things can clinically look just like it. Sort of screws up the whole historical data for mumps too:
So if you haven't had a blood test to confirm that is IS measles or mumps, there's a chance what you have is atypical or something else that isn't measles or mumps?

Or, is there really such a thing as measles and mumps?

LOL
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#96 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 03:30 AM
 
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So if you haven't had a blood test to confirm that is IS measles or mumps, there's a chance what you have is atypical or something else that isn't measles or mumps?

Or, is there really such a thing as measles and mumps?

LOL
It's not a silly question.

What you have is a measles and mumps "syndrome". Without a blood test, its not, and never has been, possible to distinguish it with absolute certainty. Which is why some doctors in this country started doing blood tests, and were most surprised to find many of their patients, according to the blood tests, getting measles and rubella more than once.

(Course, some might argue that the lab tests were shonky, in which case, an awful lot of them are, which casts aspertions on everything else done in diagnostic labs, so for now, I'll assume their tests were actually accurate.)

Ishmael, I had a ministry of health letter (I've not had time to check it, and I'm not going to, as its not important to me) which states that rubella cannot be diagnosed through clinical symptoms, and must be diagnosed through a blood test.

But back to this business of "syndromes".

If you study the whooping cough literature, the same thing happens. Up until the use of the vaccine, anything that looked like whooping cough, sounded like whooping cough, was called whooping cough.

In the last 20+ years, you have things like adenoviruses, bronchoseptica and other "pathogens" which produce identical "syndromes" to whooping cough. Some even last as long. It's a subject not much discussed, unless the group concerned is all fully vaccinated and they really want to try to vindicate the vaccine.

Like in Holland a few years ago. Except they failed miserably.

And another example for the medical history maniacs around here, me being the main rabble rouser.

Until the use of the diphtheria vaccine, croup was listed under diphtheria. They were similar entities which were thought to be the same, but diphtheria was thought to be a more serious version of croup.

Only after the vaccine was croup separated out, so again, diphtheria stats can't be considered to be of much value. Neither can whooping cough.

Oh, ironically, many of the whooping cough cases in vaccinated children here in the last outbreak, and in the one that started last year, and is now gaining speed, are being diagnosed as "asthma" and the kids are prescribed steroids.

After all, it can't be whooping cough can it? They are vaccinated.

And now that they've effectively barred vaccinated children from the PCR test, (only available to hospital babies at risk of dying... ) how are we supposed to resolve this connundrum?

Actually, the same thing applies to polio definitions. There wasn't something called aseptic meningitis prior to the polio vaccine. But afterwards, lots of what used to be classified as non-paralytic polio, was then transferred to the aseptic meningitis column.

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#97 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 04:08 AM
 
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I had a nice long post typed out and the baby hit the keyboard. Then POOF it was gone.

Ok so anyway, the reason I ask if when your glands swell up do to the mumps is because of an experience we had when dd#2 was 8 months old.

I noticed one day that her glands under her jaw were swollen. She had been running a low fever so I thought maybe she had the mumps. I called the doctor and made an appointment. Because it was a last minute appointment we had to see the NP. When she saw dd she seemed kind of panicky and went and got a doctor. The doctor told us not to worry they have seen this before and had us bring dd back the next day. We were in every day that week for "observation." The following week they decided they were going to lance and drain the abscess. So they drugged dd up with morphine, lance, drained, and packed it.

In the meantime they had us take a test for cat scratch fever. We didn't have a cat. DD had never been around a cat but they wanted her tested for. The test came back negative. They didn't believe it and had her tested again. Again it came back negative.

The following week they decided it needed re-lanced, so again they drugged my baby up with morphine and lanced it again. This time the doctor decided he would give her a bit more morphine since he thought she was in pain last time. duh! Well according to him she stopped breathing during the procedure so they sent her off the to the hospital in an ambulance from the office. I really don't think she stopped breathing. DD2 and 3 are both the type of children that stop breathing for a few seconds when they are crying hard. I think that is what had happened. So after observing her for a few hours they sent her home.

After 2 weeks of going to the doc almost every day, and lancing and draining this twice she started to heal. They never ever did figure out what caused this. They were quiet insistent it was not the mumps although she was never tested for it. (of course what do I know, maybe the swelling isn’t puss filled when you have the mumps.) So thanks for listening and your opinions,
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#98 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 06:10 AM
 
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Well, Tina, given that the lymph gland's function is to sequester pathogens there to stop them spreading into the rest of the body, and then "destroy" them, I can't help but wonder.

when we get a cold, at the place where the pathogens are destroyed we get a green discharge. It's the "debris" left behind after the battle.

So yes, the question has to be asked. If a battle is going on in glands, is the resultant debris sequestered green discharge.

I suspect they don't know, because in the old days they never went around drugging up, and lancing every swollen gland that came along, but it stands to reason that any infection in a gland could cause pus.

Usually, they "say" its bacterial infections that cause green discharges, but I'm not sure about that. They "say" a lot of things, but that doesn't make it so.

I mean, the logical thing would have been to test the discharge to see what it was, but did they do that?

Cat scratch is a bacterial disease, which comes from a scratch on the skin, and its sequestered in the lymph gland, and its very rare that doctors go in and drain them... normally they let the immune system deal with it, and let it go down by itself...but the fact that the test came back negative twice, tells me that there are a whole lot of things that can cause pus in glands, and that any swelling might just be green detritus from a "battle" going on in there...

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#99 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 06:16 AM
 
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As a thought Tina, why don't you TELL them you want a mumps titre done?

If they are positive, high and rising, which would show clinical mumps, then send them a bill for the refund of the money you spent feathering their ignorant coffers.

Label it Refund demand as a result of unnecessary ID ten T error

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#100 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice
Sorry that you went through this.

I would have asked for a second or third opinion.

A child should not serve as learning material for nincompoops like this...this is child abuse, and should be reported.
She was seen by EVERY doctor in the practice. There were about 7 of them at the time. No one knew what caused it. "It's not cat scratch, we don't know what it is."

As far as having the puss tested, no they did not do that. Also I can't ask them to do that now, it was 5 years ago, but it still bugs me that no one knew what it was. When I suggested mumps I was simply told no.

Another question. If I had dd tested to see if she was immune, would they be able to tell if she was immune due to the vaccine or if she had actually had mumps? Or would it only show she was immune?
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#101 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 02:32 PM
 
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I meant to go to another doctor, outside of the practice.

Possibly another city, county or state.

I know that sounds like a tall order, but I have known people who did this (!), to get to the bottom of the issue.

Because we have de facto required/de jure recommended vaccinations in this country, and most doctors believe in them, most practitioners do not recognize or want to recognize the real disease when it is in front of them.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#102 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 03:13 PM
 
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I was kicked out of this same practice last Feb. after going there for 5 years because I "was delaying vaxes until I felt comfortable giving them." Their theory was, they are the doctors and if you can't follow though with their reccomendations, because they are the doctors, then you should go find another doctor who is willing to allow you to do this. I wish I had the actual letter on this computer, but I do not. It is on a different one I don't have access too right now.

It is nice to know you no longer have choices in your medical care. You either do exactly a your doctor says or get lost.
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#103 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 04:02 PM
 
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Poor Tina (and daughter). That sounds like a horrendous experience.

Here are a few thoughts about the situation, with the disclaimer that I'm no infectious disease expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Pus-filled glands under the jaw is a an exact discription of something called pyogenic lymphadenitis. Some types of bacteria (not viruses) have the ability to evoke an immune response that results in lots of a particular type of fighter cell called a neutrophil. Huge numbers of dead neutrophils = pus. So generally speaking, an abscess in a lymph node indicates an infection with one of these types of bacteria (although it could be a secondary infection after a primary viral infection). The major offenders are staph and strep bacteria, although there are a few rare ones that can do this as well (including the ones that cause cat scratch disease and something called tularemia).

The mumps virus doesn't infect the lymph nodes but rather the salivary glands (and the pancreas and the testicles). Your lymph nodes are involved in the process, because that's where the immune response happens, but the primary infection is generally in the parotid glands, which are located on top of the jaw, in front of the ear.

So what you're describing sounds more like a bacterial infection in the lymph node itself. They often don't cuture those things because it's hard to get a good result with all the dead stuff in there. Was mumps somehow involved? Maybe, maybe not. This kind of thing often goes along with strep throat or a staph infection.

I don't think an antibody test would be able to distinguish naturally acquired from vax-acquired mumps.

By the way, morphine has one very classic side effect: respiratory depression. Your breathing gets slow and shallow, and if you've got enough morphine in your blood, it stops altogether. So your daughter may well have had some breathing problems if they gave her a bit too much morphine. Of course, they may have overreacted as well.

Anyway, I'm glad she came through it alright, and I'm sorry it was such an ordeal. Not only that, but what a drag that you never got an explanation for what was going on. That kind of thing drives me crazy.
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#104 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 04:41 PM
 
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OT -- I just watch First, Do No Harm on Lifetime this morning. The bottom line was that the doctors were putting a child on medications, treating the reactions to the meds, one medication eat through a foam cup!!! Toxins running while trying to cure his epilepic seizures to no avail. When all the while there had be a dietary answer dating back to the early 1900s (even mentions fasting in the Bible as a cure for epilepsy). The mother found out about a diet Ketogenic at John Hopkins, the doctor at the hospital dismissed her find as antadotal at best and refused to allow the woman to leave with her son, threatened CPS and the institution to take custody to do surgery etc. Luckily she had a family friend a doctor who stepped up and would take the boy to John Hopkins, an MD turned Airline pilot. The movie had many actors that were epilepics cured by the Ketogenic diet. And was based on a true story in the early '90 in Kansas City, MO.

This just really hit me that doctors in general suck Medicate and Cut!!!
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#105 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 04:50 PM
 
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This will be my last post for awhile.

I've loved participating in this debate -- it's been wonderfully challenging and has gotten me thinking about things in ways that I haven't before. But it has also taken up an immense about of time and energy. Each new post raises so many new questions that I want to investigate; I end up feeling like a dog trying to chase down hundreds of pigeons at once. So I'm going to temporarily ban myself from this board, at least until after my licensing exam.

I'm going to add one last bit of fuel to the debate about vax-transmitted MMR, then leave. Since I won't be back to read the rebuttals (I hope there will be some!), y'all will have the last word.

Since it's been shown that M,M and R can be shed by vaccinees, I've been really wondering about why we don't seem to have an epidemic of vax-transmitted disease on our hands (maybe we do and just don't see it, for reasons discussed in previous posts, but I still think it unlikely.)

The fact that the attenuated strain of measles is so genetically close to wild measles means nothing in itself. Consider the fact that an alteration in one of the ~3 billion DNA base pairs that make up the human genome is enough to cause a chloride channel to malfunction, and another single base pair change will make hemoglobin misfold. If a child inherits one copy of these changes from each parent, she will have cystic fibrosis or sickle cell disease, respectively.

So how does the attenuated measles virus differ from the wild one? I'll assume that everything posted by MT is correct, but I'd like to qualify one thing: infectivity is certainly necessary for the vax virus to work, but that's something that can be influenced by the way the virus is delivered.

The attenuated measles virus contains a mutation in its hemagluttinin protein. This is the protein that allows the virus to bind and gain entry to the body, so it's conceivable that the attenuated strain would have a harder time getting into the body by a natural route.

Another important parameter is virulence/pathogenicity: how well the virus can reproduce and how much trouble it can cause. The attenuated virus seems to differ in this respect as well.These studies discuss this, although the second one suggests that the virus could regain some of its virulence if allowed to hang out and reproduce for long enough.

So that might go some way toward explaning the complete lack of documented real-world vax-transmitted measles. Food for thought, anyway.

Adios amigas.
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#106 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 09:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CallMeIshmael
Since it's been shown that M,M and R can be shed by vaccinees, I've been really wondering about why we don't seem to have an epidemic of vax-transmitted disease on our hands

The measles rate had gone way down, the death rate almost none existent before the measles vaccine.
So why would the attenuated measles make us vulnerable?

The child who is directly injected with the pathogen must fight it off, but when we are not vulnerable to diseases because of better living standard, it would only make sense that we just don't get infected.

That goes for the attenuated measles as for the wild measeles.

Therefore, even if we would no longer vaccinate, measles, for one, would not return.


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infectivity is certainly necessary for the vax virus to work, but that's something that can be influenced by the way the virus is delivered.
Or what is delivered with the injection besides the virus.

When the virus alone is injected into the body it does nothing. It causes no reaction, produces no antibodies. The vaccine relies on the adjuvants.
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#107 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 10:18 PM
 
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Actually, Gitti if vaccinations stopped measles would return for several reasons:

1) Doctors would now start reporting everything they now call "morbilli-like" illnesses "measles" in order to show the other side how misguided they were (which is exactly what happened in Japan after the whole cell vaccine was dropped as a result of failure of public confidence in it).

2) There would still be a sector in the community who were nutritionally immunologically "challenged" (or should I say "informationally challenged") whose children would be very susceptible, as they are now, to complications and deaths from measles...

3) There are far higher rates now, of immunodeficient children than there were in the past (another story!) and these children, who are the ones who succumb to these diseases, will be used as an example.

So, using the time honoured methods of statistical sculpturing, and diagnostic manipulation, the "official" statistics would be 'made' to show what a criminal thing it was to drop the vaccine.

I say this, because, unlike Smallpox, measles syndromes still exist in large numbers.

They couldn't get away with it, with Smallpox, because even 'alastrim' had done its dash, and the vast array of side-effects from the smallpox vaccine in the developed world were then so glaringly obvious, they really had no option but retire that vaccine, even if they chose to do it under the media manipulated banner of "what a clever boy are we, having "got rid" of it".

But measles will be different. Partly because it "just" will be, but also, because the vaccine companies have staked their future on multiple vaccines with at least 10 antigens in it. To alter that paradigm would be to not just throw a hand grenade in their bunkers, but a neutron bomb instead.

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#108 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 10:45 PM
 
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Actually Tracy, its sheer blood mindedness that has kept me at this thread.

Here's why.

This morning it took 4 minutes and 42 seconds to get the index page of this forum to come up. A comparable amount of time, to get whatever page it was, to come up. Then to read. Then, unless you use the quick response form, a similar amount of time to get the reply to thread to come up. So potentially 15 plus minutes can be "wasted" going up the wall, while you have formulated your reply half a million times, and feel like throwing the computer and whole caboodle out the window.

Of course, "you" don't do that, since this is the only internet board for me, which is a slow as a dead dog's hind leg.

However, to post here, intrudes so much on whatever else goes on in a day, that I suspect a time will come when it simply isn't worth while by any stretch of the imagination.

Now, to answer Ishmael.

Even though she 'says' she won't come here, I suspect she won't resist the temptation to view the results of her quitting post:

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The fact that the attenuated strain of measles is so genetically close to wild measles means nothing in itself. Consider the fact that an alteration in one of the ~3 billion DNA base pairs that make up the human genome is enough to cause a chloride channel to malfunction, and another single base pair change will make hemoglobin misfold. If a child inherits one copy of these changes from each parent, she will have cystic fibrosis or sickle cell disease, respectively.

Okay, that's a wonderful example of how a single genotypic change can result in a big phenotypic change. But it is not appropriate to just suppose that this indeed has happened. If so, then I can just suppose that while the neighbor has a severe case of wild-type measles, it won't infect me because that virus will certainly mutate while in his body and there is a chance the mutation will will render it non-infectious. The reality is that the vaccine virus is the progeny of a wild-type strain. It is a wild-type strain that was propagated in chick eggs so that it would accumulate a few mutations. All of those mutations are known. The only characteristic that was selected for in the progeny virus (the vaccine) was high infectivity.

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So how does the attenuated measles virus differ from the wild one? I'll assume that everything posted by MT is correct, but I'd like to qualify one thing: infectivity is certainly necessary for the vax virus to work, but that's something that can be influenced by the way the virus is delivered.

The wild-type measles virus infects the pharynx through respiratory droplets and spreads from there. The vaccine virus is injected, produces a viremia (spreads all over the body) and winds up infecting the pharynx where it can be coughed onto other people. The observation that the vaccine virus infects the pharynx of the vaccinee means that it will also infect the pharynx of other humans. Incidentally, since the vaccine is injected, it has the potential to infect peripheral nerves from whence it travels through the axons into the brain.

Quote:
The attenuated measles virus contains a mutation in its hemagluttinin protein. This is the protein that allows the virus to bind and gain entry to the body, so it's conceivable that the attenuated strain would have a harder time getting into the body by a natural route.

Conceivable, but not true. These mutations have been characterized. The mutation in the hemagluttinin protein allows the vaccine virus to bind with high affinity to CD46, a cell surface protein. CD46 is a cell receptor present on the surfaces of all nucleated cells in your body. So while the wild-type measles virus is tissue-restricted, the vaccine virus is not: it can infect any cell. The safety implications of this have not been explored. Although it is assumed that the vaccine virus is quickly cleared from the body, the reality is that the virus could hide anywhere, causing persistent infections. The asymptomatic nature of the vaccine (with respect to classical measles symptoms) may make persistent infections very hard to identify. For example, measles virus has been identified in the bowels of IBD patients who received MMR but never had measles. Also, the vaccine virus has been shown to grow in neurons and travel through the axons to other neurons - all the while invisible to the immune system because no extracellular virus is shed.

Scary stuff - and mostly ignored.

These are things, Ismael, that as a future paediatrician, you might like to consider very carefully.

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#109 of 110 Old 02-27-2005, 11:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
Actually, Gitti if vaccinations stopped measles would return for several reasons:
I forgot the politics of the disease.

At the very beginning of the thread there was a sentence that I should always keep in mind:


Quote:
....there is something else that determines who will develop disease and who does not, besides vaccination condition.
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#110 of 110 Old 03-17-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
There was a very funny (funny to me, that is...) study published in BMJ years ago, but a startled doctor, who found that a select group of children tested, found that 50% of those with antibodies to measles had never had any clinical disease, and a small subgroup with rising titres also had no clinical symptoms.

This study was the first to alert me to the fact that non-symptomatic clinical measles was a common entity. Although not as spectacular as other USA studies that show that 98.8% of people with polio antibodies never exhibitted clinical symptoms once, let alone three times (you can get clinical polio again, if it is to a different "type" than you "got" before) it shows that to use antibody statistics as proof of either how dangerous or widespread a disease is, is a false argument.
Just wanted to note that something similar was found with chickenpox,

Most ten-year-old children with negative or unknown histories of chickenpox are immune.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
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