autism: incidence in vaxed vs no-vax kids? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I've just been wondering about this recently. Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done to compare the incidence of autism in vaxed vs no-vax children?

Do most children with autism have their vaxes?

(Sorry if this has been discussed before )
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#2 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 02:58 PM
 
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Do most children with autism have their vaxes?
Yes, in the US. So do most children who don't have autism.

The correlation between vaccination (mostly on thimerisol in vaccines) and autism has been studied pretty closely. The studies seem to indicate that there is no correlation - vaccinated children don't develop the syndrome any more (or less) than un-vaccinated.

Many diagnoses of autism tend to be made in childhood, childhood is when most children are vaccinated, therefore it often seems that symptoms of autism appear after a vaccination. Plus there is a lot of attention paid to the possibility of a link, and therefore parents often make the association based on that.

But essentially there is no significant evidence to indicate that vaccination causes autism.

Regards,
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#3 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess my real question is whether there are any studies with information about the incidence of autism in no-vax children.
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#4 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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Well, the studies in the link compared autism rates in vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated. They find there is no difference.

Is that what you meant?

Autism rates aren't any higher in non-vax'ed kids, if that is what you are asking.

Regards,
Shodan
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#5 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 03:48 PM
 
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I don't see where any of the linked studies compared vaccinated children with unvaccinated children.

Maybe LESS vaccinated children, but not unvaxed.
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#6 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 04:15 PM
 
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What about the studies done on Amish children and the like zero rate of autism among them (and they are unvaxxed). Are you looking for something like that? I don't have a link but can look for one.

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#7 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What about the studies done on Amish children and the like zero rate of autism among them (and they are unvaxxed). Are you looking for something like that? I don't have a link but can look for one.
A link would be great. Thanks!
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#8 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 05:05 PM
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Here's one, although this is fairly anecdotal:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/scho...ines122005.cfm

Quote:
The correlation between vaccination (mostly on thimerisol in vaccines) and autism has been studied pretty closely. The studies seem to indicate that there is no correlation
Not just thimerosal, but also the MMR and several studies DO suggest a link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../16/nmmr16.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...28/ixnews.html

PhDin' mama to dd (Oct. 2005)
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#9 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The correlation between vaccination (mostly on thimerisol in vaccines) and autism has been studied pretty closely. The studies seem to indicate that there is no correlation - vaccinated children don't develop the syndrome any more (or less) than un-vaccinated.
Those studys were done by the IOC (The Institute of Medicine). The IOC is primarily funded by the United States federal government.
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#10 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 05:31 PM
 
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Here's an interesting article: (I'm still looking for an actual study done and documented, I know I've seen it before)

The Age of Autism: The Amish anomaly

The same author has written a bunch of articles including one about homeschooling kids that are unvaxxed. It was titled "where are the homeschooled kids with autism?" or something similar.

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#11 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Well, the studies in the link compared autism rates in vaccinated vs. non-vaccinated. They find there is no difference.

Is that what you meant?

Autism rates aren't any higher in non-vax'ed kids, if that is what you are asking.

Regards,
Shodan
Sorry, I'm not seeing where any of those studies done have compared vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids and autism.
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#12 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 08:10 PM
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I was looking for cases of autism in unvaccinated children for about 10 years now. Found. One so far. The number of unvaccinated people I got to know in the last 17 years is over 3 thousand. The incidence there is definitely not 1 in 166.
The case I found is very interesting though. The child is truly not vaccinated (there were a few more that 'thought' they were not vaccinated, but were, in fact, partially vaccinated, so didn't quite fit my criteria), did not receive one tablet of any drug in his entire life, born at home. But there is a family history of autoimmune disease (severe allergies) and the parents were, of course, vaccinated with aggravation of those allergies at the time (part of the reason why this child wasn't vaccinated).
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#13 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 08:17 PM
 
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What would be interesting is if they would do a study on sibling pairs who have been vaxed and unvaxed. Especially since the risk of autism is higher if an older sibling has it.

Of course, I'm extremely biased, because I have two boys, one is vaxxed, one is not. One has autism, one does not.
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#14 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 08:22 PM
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Here's another one: http://marliah.livejournal.com/profile
Three boys - two vaxed and autistic, one unvaxed and so far not autistic (past the age the two older brothers regressed).

There was also a mention of a few pairs of twins examples from South Australia but I couldn't link it yet, anybody knows anything about this?
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#15 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 10:59 PM
 
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This isn't exactly what you asked for but I found it interesting enough to pass on.

http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/news/deadly.asp

Mel
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#16 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 11:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Yes, in the US. So do most children who don't have autism.

The correlation between vaccination (mostly on thimerisol in vaccines) and autism has been studied pretty closely. The studies seem to indicate that there is no correlation - vaccinated children don't develop the syndrome any more (or less) than un-vaccinated.

Many diagnoses of autism tend to be made in childhood, childhood is when most children are vaccinated, therefore it often seems that symptoms of autism appear after a vaccination. Plus there is a lot of attention paid to the possibility of a link, and therefore parents often make the association based on that.

But essentially there is no significant evidence to indicate that vaccination causes autism.

Regards,
Shodan
You are absolutely right about the lack of evidence, but this lack of evidence is of no comfort to a parent (like my sister) whose child regressed into autism following a vaccination. Yes, it could be coincidental but anyone who has been through it will never believe in their heart that it was just a coincidence.

No, there is no significant evidence to indicate that vaccination triggers autism, but there is also no significant evidence to indicate that it doesn't. Autism is an "epidemic" now, with some figures putting it at 1 in 166 kids diagnosed. SOMETHING is causing the epidemic. I don't know what it is. I can't say that it is vaccination, but I can't say that it ISN'T vaccination either. Until I know for sure, my children will never receive another vax.
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#17 of 276 Old 10-13-2006, 11:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DQMama View Post
No, there is no significant evidence to indicate that vaccination triggers autism, but there is also no significant evidence to indicate that it doesn't. Autism is an "epidemic" now, with some figures putting it at 1 in 166 kids diagnosed. SOMETHING is causing the epidemic. I don't know what it is. I can't say that it is vaccination, but I can't say that it ISN'T vaccination either. Until I know for sure, my children will never receive another vax.
well said.
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#18 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 11:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annalily View Post
Sorry, I'm not seeing where any of those studies done have compared vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids and autism.
Well, from the page to which I linked -
Quote:
The Denmark MMR/Autism study (The New England Journal of Medicine 11/02).
This was a large-scale population based study where researchers evaluated the possible association between the MMR vaccine for all children born in Denmark between 1991 through 1998. Children who were vaccinated with the MMR vaccine were compared with children who were not vaccinated with the MMR vaccine. No increased risk of autism was found among children vaccinated with MMR and no association was found between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autism.
Reference: Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, Schendel D, Whlfahrt J, Thorsen P, Olsen Jo, and Melbye M.
A Population-based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism. [Journal: Article] Ugeskrift for Laeger. Vol. 164(49)(pp 5741-5744), 2002. Date of Publication: 02 Dec 2002.
Bolding added.

Do you see it now?

Regards,
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#19 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 11:31 AM
 
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I did not receive the mmr vaccine ...... but since i did receive others, i am still considered vaccinated.
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#20 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Do you see it now?
The section that you highlighted says "Children who were vaccinated with the MMR vaccine were compared with children who were not vaccinated with the MMR vaccine."

Annalily said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by annalily View Post
Sorry, I'm not seeing where any of those studies done have compared vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids and autism.


"Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated".

Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated is not the same as MMR Vaccinated vs Not MMR Vaccinated.

Bolding added.

Do you see it now?
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#21 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 12:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The correlation between vaccination (mostly on thimerisol in vaccines) and autism has been studied pretty closely. The studies seem to indicate that there is no correlation - vaccinated children don't develop the syndrome any more (or less) than un-vaccinated. .... But essentially there is no significant evidence to indicate that vaccination causes autism.
And that study convinced you? Take a closer look -


Quote:
Many were concerned about the likely conclusions of the IOM, including Congressman Dave Weldon (R-FL), who in this speech to the IOM prior to the release of the study, noted:

"This atmosphere of intimidation even surrounds today's hearing. I received numerous complaints that this event is not a further attempt to get at the facts but rather a desire to sweep these issues under the rug."

Quote:

The 2004 IOM was a kangaroo court with a pre-ordained outcome. Unlike the CDC, the Institute of Medicine is a private institution and not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

Quote:
The 2004 IOM Report, so roundly cited as "proof" that vaccines don't cause autism, was tainted because:

1. The CDC was the client and paying for the study.


2. The committee members made the CDC's expectations clear from the beginning.


3. The committee was largely made up of health policy advocates, who were concerned with vaccination rates, not the health of our children. There were no toxicologists or doctors of autistic children on the committee, and time was dedicated to discussing issues of vaccination policy, rather than whether or not there was evidence that vaccines caused harm.


Here Dr. Stratton discusses the benefits of putting the debate to rest "no matter what" in order to allay parents concerns "to vaccinate or not vaccinate."


4. The committee refused to look at hundreds of case reports showing the relationship between vaccinations and autism.


5. The committee based their conclusions SOLELY on epidemiology: the Danish studies and the CDC's own analysis of the VSD.


The Danish studies were highly flawed, originated by the CDC, authored by CDC and a Danish vaccine manufacturer employees, and based on a change to the Danish database that any Ninth grade math student could understand.

And, by the admission of the author of the CDC's study using their VSD data, a neutral outcome was produced, meaning it should not have contributed in any way to the IOM's conclusion. Denmark was all they had.


6. The IOM was informed that a number of biological studies were awaiting publication, and the IOM rushed their report in ADVANCE of those studies.

Bolding added!


LINK: Put Children FIRST
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#22 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 12:46 PM
 
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I took graduate courses in evaluating research, and I learned that most studies are flawed in some way. A good researcher will admit limitations, but of course some things, like who funded the study, won't be openly admitted in a study.

For this reason, I don't like studies about vaccines. Many studies on both sides have serious flaws. Luckily, I don't need studies to tell me not to vaccinate, just as I don't need studies to show that my kids will be healthier if they eat foods that are not grown with pesticides. (Not saying we're 100% organic but we try! It's a little easier to avoid vaccinations than pesticides though.)
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#23 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 12:56 PM
 
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I have one child w/autism. I'm not sure vaxing (delayed/selective) caused his autism, but i'm not sure it didn't, either. I don't think the studies done are enough to conclusively say either way b/c it's so easy to skew results to 'see' what you want.

My middle child is the one who has autism. He was vax'd almost the same, possibly less, than my oldest, who does not have autism. I've stopped vaxing my youngest since the autism dx a year and a half ago and he shows no signs of autism, but I didn't see any signs in my middle child, either. I have my ideas on what caused/contributed to my ds1's autism, but I'll never know for sure. It's a chicken/egg question for me. Did this cause the autism or was this a sign of the autism? I won't go into the whole story, but every parent with a child on the spectrum thinks the same thing, I'm sure.

I got into the vax discussion/debate with my dad who will argue with me just for fun. He'll argue that it's night if I say it's day, that sort of thing. He started telling me 'oh, blah, blah, vax's have been around forever, the government wouldn't do them if they're not safe, blah, blah, blah'. I kept my cool (which I'm getting MUCH better at with him now that I'm an adult) and told him I'm glad he's so comfortable with everything he's told and he made parenting decisions with information he had at the time. I told him I don't have the luxury anymore of just accepting what I'm told. I also said that while I'm not 100% certain vaxing causes autism, I'm certainly not 100% sure it doesn't and until I am, I will restrict the vax's I give to my children (none at this time). He still doesn't think I'm right, but he sees my point and no longer thinks I'm wrong (which is the same as a victory at this point w/him). He's even argued in one of his classes about the potential dangers of vax's.

Anyway- sorry to get OT. OP- I don't think there will ever be any wide studies about UNvax'd kids b/c no one wants to fund that study. There's no big money in not vaxing, so there's every incentive to say vaxing doesn't cause any harm.

Michelle -mom to Katlyn 4/00 , Jake 3/02, and Seth 5/04
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#24 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:01 PM
 
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The rest of the post is the sort of unsubstantiated innuendo that can't be refuted, but this part stood out -
Quote:
5. The committee based their conclusions SOLELY on epidemiology: the Danish studies and the CDC's own analysis of the VSD.
So you think epidemiological analysis shouldn't rely on epidemiology.

What do you recommend instead - tea leaves? Tarot cards? The magic 8-ball?

Come on.

Regards,
Shodan
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#25 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:13 PM
 
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Shodan - just curious ..... why do you conclude that mmr vs. non mmr studies equal vaccinated vs. unvaccinated studies?
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#26 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The rest of the post is the sort of unsubstantiated innuendo that can't be refuted, but this part stood out -
So you think epidemiological analysis shouldn't rely on epidemiology.

What do you recommend instead - tea leaves? Tarot cards? The magic 8-ball?

Come on.

Regards,
Shodan
You're funny. You must think all the parents who have vaccine damage or buried children are all 1)mentally insane or 2)liars. Who stands to potentially lose a lot of money if the vax rate declines? Since you love google so much, you should have no problem looking up how profitable a business this really is.
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#27 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:24 PM
 
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Because MMR is a vaccine. Thus one would refer to a person who has been vaccinated against MMR as a vaccinated person.

Are you arguing that a vaccinated person is not vaccinated? Or that non-vaccinated people are really vaccinated? Or is this thread in some language other than English?

Regards,
Shodan
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#28 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:30 PM
 
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You're funny. You must think all the parents who have vaccine damage or buried children are all 1)mentally insane or 2)liars.
No, merely that not everyone who claims that vaccines cause more damage than they prevent is credible.

Quote:
Who stands to potentially lose a lot of money if the vax rate declines? Since you love google so much, you should have no problem looking up how profitable a business this really is.
ISTM that a lot of anti-vax types are peddling books or something similar, too. So I don't automatically assume that everyone of them is as pure as the driven snow, either.

The largest flaw in your argument is this, though - doctors have their own children vaccinated as well. What you are suggesting is that doctors are willing to sacrifice their own children for profit too. Does that sound likely to you?

Regards,
Shodan
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#29 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Because MMR is a vaccine. Thus one would refer to a person who has been vaccinated against MMR as a vaccinated person.

Are you arguing that a vaccinated person is not vaccinated? Or that non-vaccinated people are really vaccinated? Or is this thread in some language other than English?

Regards,
Shodan
I'll create a definition for you:

Unvaccinated: NEVER been vaccinated, not even once
Vaccinated: had one or more vaccines

When the study says that they compared people who had had the MMR vaccine to those who had NOT had the MMR vaccine--they do not state whether or not those who had NOT had the MMR vaccine have had OTHER vaccines (ya know, hep. b, chickenpox, DTaP or something else).

The CDC COULD choose to do a study that compared those who have NEVER been vaccinated to those who have been vaccinated...but I think they're afraid.
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#30 of 276 Old 10-16-2006, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
So you think epidemiological analysis shouldn't rely on epidemiology.

What do you recommend instead - tea leaves? Tarot cards? The magic 8-ball?

OOOOO!

How about talking to the parents? Ever heard of doing that?

Do you have kids? Who knows them better than you?
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