Mothering Forum banner

Vax and Autism, ages?

15K views 117 replies 23 participants last post by  yabba kina 
#1 ·
For those of you who have researched the link between Vaccinations and Autisms, POST-Thimerasol, what are the most vulnerable years? From everything I've heard, the vast majority of autism is something they think was always there in the child, but not noticed until language/social stages were missed.

But I know there are cases of regressive Autism, the type where a "normal" kid begins losing skills. I had always heard the link to MMR at 18 months.

So if you're giving individual shots, like we are giving just the measles vax, at 30 months, is that Autism risk decreased?

If you do give a child a vaccination, is there a window when you start to see signs of the regressive form of the Autism?

I try to research this stuff, but honestly, there seems to be no really documented link, POST-thimerasol, btw vaccines and Autism.

So I'm scared and confused right now, wondering if every little thing my son is doing after his shot is a sign of autism developing, or is it just tiredness and crankiness. Help!
 
See less See more
#27 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
Gretelmom,
If you read that link closely, it's not 85% of kids with autism, its 85% of the autistic kids he studied. There is no mention of how many non-autistic kids have the virus in their guts, which as you stated would be an important control.
Also, if you contract measels do you end up autistic?
Yeah, obviously contracting measles does not give people autism, as you're pointing out. All I know is that fetuses exposed in utero to the Rubella virus (I don't know if it was the shot, naturally or both) were at a much higher risk of developing Autism.

An interesting thing to me is that there is such an immunological componant to autism, the immune crisis being a time when kids start regressing, start showing signs, or dx'd kids have a crisis. I think that's going to end up being one of the keys.

At least there's an enormous amount of research going on right now. But individual studies tend to not impress me, I am always looking for a collection of evidence, well substantiated. I know that's what everyone wants. It's so easy to get caught up in one study, however.
 
#29 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post
Yeah, thank goodness for my "vaccinated" computer, it let me know about that nasty virus

I just looked into it and it is a nasty worm: Win32/Allaple.Gen worm. It will essentially turn a susceptible computer into a zombie and not allow your browser to access anti-virus software webpages. So don't go onto that site if you don't have good antivirus software, AVAST is recommended and free and if you can't get onto the site, you have most likely been infected.

SM
(also has a vaccinated computer)
 
#30 ·
Science Mom

***I just looked into it and it is a nasty worm: Win32/Allaple.Gen worm. It will essentially turn a susceptible computer into a zombie and not allow your browser to access anti-virus software webpages. So don't go onto that site if you don't have good antivirus software, AVAST is recommended and free and if you can't get onto the site, you have most likely been infected.

SM
(also has a vaccinated computer) ***

much better to either use apple mac or linux.

then you never need to think of computer viruses or vaccines


bill gates is an inferior product, so naturally, anything made by him will need vaccines. the rest all all naturally grown and healthy.

:

like properly fed, brought up, unvaccinated kiddos.

back to the subject at hand.

the key isn't intra-uterine viruses. organogenesis is irrelevant. the only relevant issue is an kiddo's myelination, and the immune response against the virus, no matter if its from a vax or infection.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/310/3/137

anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.

elementary really.

only scientists miss the plot.

and use bill gates products.
 
#31 ·
From this abstract: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/310/3/137

Quote:
Similar lymphoproliferative responses to myelin basic protein of lymphocytes from single patients with encephalomyelitis after rabies vaccine or after varicella or rubella virus infections suggest a common immune-mediated pathogenesis for the perivenular demyelinating disease that can follow the injection of neural tissues or infection by a variety of viruses
Yabba kina,

Do you know if the difference between the vaccine reaction demyelination and natural infections was ever been followed long term? Have you ever seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil?

Quote:
anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.
Yabba kina,

Can you add any more information to this statement?
 
#33 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by yabba kina View Post
the key isn't intra-uterine viruses. organogenesis is irrelevant. the only relevant issue is an kiddo's myelination, and the immune response against the virus, no matter if its from a vax or infection.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/310/3/137

anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.

elementary really.

only scientists miss the plot.

and use bill gates products.
You are not discussing CRS induced teratogenesis for it is rather difficult to mount an autoimmune response without a functional immune system; elementary really. I believe you are referring to acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADC) and there are much better references for it that were conducted in this century. The clinical profile for ADC is quite profound as is the immunological profile and patients respond to corticosteroid therapy quite well. Again, if what you are implying has been responsible for autism then the so-called epidemic would have been observed beginning in the mid 1960's and every rubella epidemic prior to that. Rubella disease post-natally does not cause autism so how do you propose that the vaccine does?

SM
 
#34 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
If you read the article that MK cited, they conclude that the amount of aluminum in vaccines is safe. And yes there are other studies that looked into this. ]
No they don't!

Here's their conclusion:

Quote:
7. Conclusions
Children are born with a systemic aluminum body burden,
which is increased throughout life by the inhalation and dietary
intake of aluminum compounds as well as by injections
of vaccines and allergy treatments containing aluminum adjuvants.
Those injections may produce localized reactions
without systemic impact. The body burden associated with
dietary uptake from either breast milk or formula during the
first several months of life and from semisolid food during
the remainder of that first year is estimated to reach approximately
0.1 mg. This value is lower than the estimated body
burden of approximately 4mg that would result from consuming
aluminum at a rate equal to the MRL of 2 mg/kg per
day. The body burden attributable to vaccines may be expected
to fall between the two except for a period of a few
days following individual vaccinations.
First of all, they were only looking at HALF the Al containing vaccines, and even at half, that means it exceeds the MRL at times.

How is that concluding that the amount of Al in vaccines is safe???

And the other study you posted that "looked into it" used the whole "used for 60 years, so it has to be safe" line.
That's not a safety study.
 
#35 ·
NAK

MK, I will look at the article again later. But this is directly from the abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum
The methodology blends intake values and uptake fractions with an aluminum retention function derived from a human injection study using radioactive 26Al. The calculated body burden of aluminum from vaccinations exceeds that from dietary sources, however, it is below the minimal risk level equivalent curve after the brief period following injection.
Has anyone heard of autsim being linked to paternal age? A neuroscientist friend of mine mentioned it to me but I ahvent heard much more about it.

MK,
Debates and views aside, I am impressed with your grasp of the scientific literature
 
#36 ·
Quote:
The calculated body burden of aluminum from vaccinations exceeds that from dietary sources, however, it is below the minimal risk level equivalent curve after the brief period following injection.
Again, they were only looking at two Al containing vaccines, (most babies get Hib, Prevnar, DTaP, and HepB) and it also exceeds the MRL at the time of vaccination, and then dips back down. Looking at the chart, it seems like it would continue to hang out around or above the MRL for an extended period of time if all the vaccines were factored in.

What that actually "means" in terms of safety and health, I don't know. (And I don't think anyone really does.) But it's a far cry from being proven "safe". The authors don't even touch that question. They just throw the information out there for the reader to make of what they will.

Quote:
MK,
Debates and views aside, I am impressed with your grasp of the scientific literature
Thank ya'.
 
#37 ·
"read this article:

Article: Measles Vaccine Undeniably Linked to Autism - "

Let it be said once and for all that besides practically all of the other authors having removed their names from this study, the lab which analyzed the samples was found (a) to be contaminated and (b) to have falsified results.

See the transcripts from the autism omnibus hearings at the CDC website.

That study is just bunk which is why it's not published anywhere else.
 
#38 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahtob View Post
"read this article:

Article: Measles Vaccine Undeniably Linked to Autism - "

Let it be said once and for all that besides practically all of the other authors having removed their names from this study, the lab which analyzed the samples was found (a) to be contaminated and (b) to have falsified results.

See the transcripts from the autism omnibus hearings at the CDC website.

That study is just bunk which is why it's not published anywhere else.
This doesn't mean that the idea that the MMR shot or vaccines as a whole practice does not contribute to autism in children. It has not been connected ~ true ~ but it has not been proven not connected either.
 
#39 ·
MK,
I dont have the article in front of me but your last post sounds accurate. It isnt taking into account ALL vaccines.
My main point about aluminum and other vax ingerdients, is that many people here seem to throw around how "toxic" and autism causing these ingerdients are without stating HOW they are toxic and able to cause autism. The body comes in contact with many vax ingerdients daily, and even produces some, and has efficient methods for elimination.
 
#40 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
MK,
I dont have the article in front of me but your last post sounds accurate. It isnt taking into account ALL vaccines.
My main point about aluminum and other vax ingredients, is that many people here seem to throw around how "toxic" and autism causing these ingredients are without stating HOW they are toxic and able to cause autism. The body comes in contact with many vax ingredients daily, and even produces some, and has efficient methods for elimination.
Most of the stuff in vaccines doesn't actually bother me, but aluminum is one of the things that I do think is a legitimate concern.
There does seem to be a "boy who cried wolf" aspect to fearmongering about vaccine additives, though. But just because some of the stuff is unfounded hysterics doesn't mean that it all is.
 
#41 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
MK,
I dont have the article in front of me but your last post sounds accurate. It isnt taking into account ALL vaccines.
My main point about aluminum and other vax ingerdients, is that many people here seem to throw around how "toxic" and autism causing these ingerdients are without stating HOW they are toxic and able to cause autism. The body comes in contact with many vax ingerdients daily, and even produces some, and has efficient methods for elimination.
Aluminum is probably the one that I have issues with the most. Just because these chemicals are frequently found in our environment and in our diet doesn't mean that they cannot be toxic at levels found in vaccines.

What gets me is that our medical community (pharma, doctors, CDC, FDA) can say that these chemicals are labeled as toxic but somehow become not toxic when in vaccines. They also seem to be able to say that vaccines are not connected without any concrete studies or proof stating this clearly. Same to be said for aluminum ~ they just say it is safe but have no concrete studies that injected aluminum amounts rec'd in vaccines the 1st year are at safe levels when compiled together.

I am not saying that I know for sure it is connected ~ it is completely possible that these vaxes are as safe was eating blueberries for all I know ~ but until some concrete studies are done proving them to be safe...no one will ever know! I am also the first to say that there are plenty of things in our diets and environment that are totally dangerous, cancer-causing and horrible for our bodies ~ vaccines are not the root of all evil for our health...but I do think that they have not been proven safe and until then why should I just chance it?
 
#42 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Science Mom View Post
Aha, I've often wondered why no one, until you, has alluded to this because on the surface it is much more plausible than the Measles-autism link. But, I will tell you why it is not so. Yes, congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) causes mental retardation and autism, amongst a plethora of other disorders but most importantly, the teratogenic effects of CRS are present among the live births. CRS occurs during the first trimester of fetal development in nearly 100% of maternal rubella infections and goes down to almost nil after 18-20 weeks gestation. The exact reason for this has not been fully elucidated but there are actually many studies being conducted and in essence, organogenesis after the first trimester along with fetal immune system development are thought to be the reasons why CRS teratogenic effects are not present.

The necrotic patterns that are present are very marked via ultrasonography and TMI so A.) I would think that if a case were to have emerged as a result of vaccination there would be a report of it B.) There would have been a massive number of children diagnosed with some kind of neurological regressive disorder observed before the pre-vaccine era epidemics all over the world (the point of this being that if the vaccine could cause neurological regression then most certainly the wild-type virus could) C.) The same could be said following the initiation of the 1969 rubella vaccination campaign (U.S.) and D.) Vaccination with rubella during pregnancy, even in the first trimester does not result in CRS. Now there is a very rare (and always fatal) neurological syndrome, Progressive Rubella Panencephalitis (PNP) that has a similar progression to SSPE and has only been found associated with natural infection either congenitally or post-natally.

SM

and breastmilk? do we know what the results would be for moms who have been given rubella vax and breastfeed babies?

i don't think you know but I'm older than a lot of people here and breastfeeding in the early sixties in america was a rare bird. trust me i know.

i remember john kennedy's funeral too.
 
#43 ·
Quote:
i don't think you know but I'm older than a lot of people here and breastfeeding in the early sixties in america was a rare bird. trust me i know.
My daughter was born in 1967 and I got a lot of snark for breastfeeding, especially since I nursed for 21 months. And more snark for not vaxing, mostly from doctors, since I didn't tell anyone else.

I wasn't given a rubella shot after giving birth, thank goodness. As it turned out, I've only had one baby, so I wouldn't have needed one anyhow, plus I'm pretty sure I'm immune from having had rubella.

But this business of giving rubella shots to new moms, breastfeeding or not, seems pretty risky. Where is the evidence of safety? I get so tired of vaxing being the default!
 
#44 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
But this business of giving rubella shots to new moms, breastfeeding or not, seems pretty risky. Where is the evidence of safety? I get so tired of vaxing being the default!
Absolutely! It is funny how the statement goes from the truth ~ which is that the link between autism and vaccines has not been proven or disproven ~ autism is not caused by vaccines. Same to be said for safety ~ vaccines have not been proven to be safe ~ but mainstream says "vaccines have not been proven to be unsafe"...shouldn't they be proven safe first before partaking?

FTR, while the link is a big thing for me given the status of my nephew ~ it isn't even the biggest reason I don't vax. The biggest reason I don't vax is because I feel that there is no evidence it is a safe practice ~ and that we (as a civilization) are possibly totally screwing up by vaxing for these diseases in so many ways. I just do not think it is possible for us to outsmart Mother Nature!
 
#45 ·
sm ~ the title of the thread is vaccines and autism. the discussion is, is there any pathway by which rubella could cause autism.

there is. it's immunological.

doing a search of your posts, using key words, you suggest "expertise" in medicine aka your user name.

so asking me this question: *** Do you know if the difference between the vaccine reaction demyelination and natural infections was ever been followed long term? *** seems odd.

you will know the answer to that question.

you also ask *Have you ever seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil?*** answer, yes, but that has nothing to do with demyelination from virus or vaccine.

you then refer to me saying this: ***anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.***

and you ask ***Can you add any more information to this statement?***

what more needs to be added? if you are a science mom you know the words biological plausibility. if you want to look at all the possible mechanisms properly, you will know you can't stop with demyelination. you might want to add disseminated vasculomyelinopathy to the storyline, coz it often goes along with demyelination. start with an old paper by charles m poser, acta neurologica scandinavic 1969, then work forwards.

then you say *** You are not discussing CRS induced teratogenesis for it is rather difficult to mount an autoimmune response without a functional immune system; elementary really.***

interesting. recent research (done to justify vaccinating mothers in pregnancy) alleges that intrauterine fetuses have a far more mature and more functioning immune system than previously thought. presumably you know of that research as well.

you are right. it wasn't me discussing teratogenesis. you are the one who got side-tracked onto organogenesis. the title of this thread is vaccines and autism isn't it? teratogenesis has nothing to do with autism.

*** I believe you are referring to acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADC) and there are much better references for it that were conducted in this century. ***

a kiddo doesn't have to have ADC to have demyelination. it can be subclinical. and if measles also can have the same effect, then the problems could be worse. also with kiddos, the process of myelination is the important factor. you are the science mom. tell me sm. when does a kiddo's brain finish myelinating? (yes, i know the answer) what might happen if you give a kiddo a shot when their brains aren't myelinated? and if they have an immune system problem? or are stressed?

you say ***The clinical profile for ADC is quite profound as is the immunological profile and patients respond to corticosteroid therapy quite well. Again, if what you are implying has been responsible for autism then the so-called epidemic would have been observed beginning in the mid 1960's and every rubella epidemic prior to that. Rubella disease post-natally does not cause autism so how do you propose that the vaccine does?***

what about the subclinical profile? rubella as a virus, in a child, can cause demyelination, and encephalopathy. encephalopathy can result in autism. any virus which can result in demyelination and encephalopathy (and vasculomyelinopathy), and therefore autism, when made into a vaccine, and combined with other viruses, can in a susceptible child, theoretically cause autism.

not rocket science.

even horse breeders understand these concepts.
 
#46 ·
Lokidoki,
The amount of aluminum salts in individual vaccines can be lower than in the diet. But I agree, I have not seen a study looking at clearance of ALL of the amounts of aluminum given in the first twelve months. However, as far as I understand, injected aluminum is cleared and stored the same way as injested just at a slower rate. I don't know what your doctors have told you about toxicity. When compounds are labeled "toxic" one place and not in another, its probably based on the concentration.
WM
 
#47 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
Lokidoki,
The amount of aluminum salts in individual vaccines can be lower than in the diet. But I agree, I have not seen a study looking at clearance of ALL of the amounts of aluminum given in the first twelve months. However, as far as I understand, injected aluminum is cleared and stored the same way as injested just at a slower rate. I don't know what your doctors have told you about toxicity. When compounds are labeled "toxic" one place and not in another, its probably based on the concentration.
WM
And every single child is able to clear injected aluminum at this same rate? There are no metabolic variations?

Do you have any articles about how injected aluminum is cleared? I'd love to read more about this.
 
#48 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by WM
Lokidoki,
The amount of aluminum salts in individual vaccines can be lower than in the diet.
The amount is higher in foods, but because the uptake by the gut is so extremely low, the body burden is higher from vaccines by quite a bit.
 
#49 ·
you can't trust any research in totality:

http://www.future-drugs.com/doi/abs/...760584.6.4.559

Improving vaccines by incorporating immunological coadjuvants
Cara K Fraser, Kerrilyn R Diener, Michael P Brown and John D Hayball
† Author for correspondence

While vaccination continues to be the most successful interventionist health policy to date, infectious disease remains a significant cause of death worldwide. A primary reason that vaccination is not able to generate effective immunity is a lack of appropriate adjuvants capable of initiating the desired immune response. Adjuvant combinations can potentially overcome this problem; however, the possible permutations to consider, which include the route and kinetics of vaccination, as well as combinations of adjuvants, are practically limitless. This review aims to summarize the current understanding of adjuvants and related immunological processes and how this knowledge can and has been applied to the strategic selection of adjuvant combinations as components of vaccines against human infectious disease.

and when you look at allergy and vaccines, you discover the publishes studies weren't done properly:

http://www.future-drugs.com/doi/abs/...760584.6.4.635

The complex link between immunization against childhood diseases and allergy
Sofia Kalaboka and Isabella Annesi-Maesano
† Author for correspondence

Vaccines can be at the origin of allergic manifestations in susceptible children. Such manifestations include: immediate-type hypersensitivity (anaphylactic shock, rash or angioedema) within 1 h after the injection; semi-late hypersensitivity (local inflammatory lesion such as the Arthus phenomenon) a few hours after the injection; and delayed-type hypersensitivity (abscess or eczema at the site of the injection). Furthermore, early-life vaccinations have been implicated in the modulation of the immune system as they could promote the development of allergy by avoiding infections. However, most population-based studies have not found an increased risk of allergies in vaccinated children. Due to methodological problems in conducting the studies, further investigations are needed to better understand the phenomenon.



closest you'll get to them saying they stuffed it previously.

same with aluminum.

they are still struggling to find a decent animal model that will represent that of a new born baby....
 
#50 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by yabba kina View Post
sm ~ the title of the thread is vaccines and autism. the discussion is, is there any pathway by which rubella could cause autism.

there is. it's immunological.

doing a search of your posts, using key words, you suggest "expertise" in medicine aka your user name.

so asking me this question: *** Do you know if the difference between the vaccine reaction demyelination and natural infections was ever been followed long term? *** seems odd.

you will know the answer to that question.

you also ask *Have you ever seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil?*** answer, yes, but that has nothing to do with demyelination from virus or vaccine.

you then refer to me saying this: ***anything that can cause encephalopathy, or demyelinate, can cause autism. by the same token, any vaccine of a virus that can do that in an infection can in susceptible kiddos do the same thing.***

and you ask ***Can you add any more information to this statement?***

what more needs to be added? if you are a science mom you know the words biological plausibility. if you want to look at all the possible mechanisms properly, you will know you can't stop with demyelination. you might want to add disseminated vasculomyelinopathy to the storyline, coz it often goes along with demyelination. start with an old paper by charles m poser, acta neurologica scandinavic 1969, then work forwards.

then you say *** You are not discussing CRS induced teratogenesis for it is rather difficult to mount an autoimmune response without a functional immune system; elementary really.***

interesting. recent research (done to justify vaccinating mothers in pregnancy) alleges that intrauterine fetuses have a far more mature and more functioning immune system than previously thought. presumably you know of that research as well.

you are right. it wasn't me discussing teratogenesis. you are the one who got side-tracked onto organogenesis. the title of this thread is vaccines and autism isn't it? teratogenesis has nothing to do with autism.

*** I believe you are referring to acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADC) and there are much better references for it that were conducted in this century. ***

a kiddo doesn't have to have ADC to have demyelination. it can be subclinical. and if measles also can have the same effect, then the problems could be worse. also with kiddos, the process of myelination is the important factor. you are the science mom. tell me sm. when does a kiddo's brain finish myelinating? (yes, i know the answer) what might happen if you give a kiddo a shot when their brains aren't myelinated? and if they have an immune system problem? or are stressed?

you say ***The clinical profile for ADC is quite profound as is the immunological profile and patients respond to corticosteroid therapy quite well. Again, if what you are implying has been responsible for autism then the so-called epidemic would have been observed beginning in the mid 1960's and every rubella epidemic prior to that. Rubella disease post-natally does not cause autism so how do you propose that the vaccine does?***

what about the subclinical profile? rubella as a virus, in a child, can cause demyelination, and encephalopathy. encephalopathy can result in autism. any virus which can result in demyelination and encephalopathy (and vasculomyelinopathy), and therefore autism, when made into a vaccine, and combined with other viruses, can in a susceptible child, theoretically cause autism.

not rocket science.

even horse breeders understand these concepts.
Ladies,

Is there a way that this conversation could be succintly rephrased for those of us who have degrees in the Humanities??!! I know how to read studies, generally, I consider myself somewhat intelligent (at least) and yet, I'm so confused by this dialogue. And I believe there is a LOT of information in the two of you, that I would love to learn from.

Would you mind, Y.K., just giving me a little primer in what's happening here? I think it's about whether demyelination happens the same with naturally occuring Rubella as well as with vaccine strain Rubella. But what else???

Thanks
 
#51 ·
Deborah,
Here are some interesting references:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

Here is a quote from another study:
Session II was led off by Dr. Stanley Hem, of Purdue University. He discussed the pharmacology of aluminum salts, and introduced the workshop participants to just how much aluminum we are exposed to, how much is in us, and how it is handled within the body. An average daily exposure is about 10-15 mg, most of which comes from foods. While aluminum adjuvants have been used in vaccines for many years, their disposition following intramuscular (IM) administration has not been studied because the low dose did not cause detectable changes in the normal plasma concentration (5 μg aluminum/l). Now, accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) can accurately measure very small concentrations (10−17 g) of aluminum 26 which has no measurable radiation and is considered safe. Preliminary animal experiments have shown that the aluminum adjuvants are dissolved by citrate in the interstitial fluid, leaving the body rapidly. The ability of the body to eliminate aluminum-containing adjuvants may be partly responsible for the excellent safety record of these adjuvants.

WM
 
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top