What can you tell me about the rotavirus vaccine? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 05:53 PM
 
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Because even my 4th grader knows (when doing his science fair project) that if he mixes up a control group with a test group (no matter how big or small) the experiment/study is null/void and he must start over in order to ensure correct, scientific results.

This doesn't mean don't vax with this vaccine, that's a personal decision.

But IMO, don't quote information from a study that has been compromised in a manner that could directly result the findings. (Especially since the mixup does leave questions such as "Were there any other children? How are we sure there were only 2? Were these 2 children part of the group that developed intussusception?")

Tanya- Yes, that is my concern. Not that the researchers did anything purposefully or maliciously...nothing like that.
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#92 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 08:15 PM
 
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btw, what the heck does a 'teeny' breach in protocol mean? i didn't think you can quantify something like that. it either is, or it isn't. a breach in protocol is a breach in protocol, whether it's 'teeny' or 'ginormous' or any other pat, cutesy phrase you want to call it.
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#93 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 08:53 PM
 
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I don't think there was a breech at all. I don't think the study was compromied. I think 2 placebo group kids got rota from two control group kids and I see that as no big deal at all.
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#94 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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maybe it's a mountain out of a molehill, but they spend quite a bit of time talking about this anomaly in the above referenced hearing. are you telling us that YOU have a better judgement of this than the scientists do?

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Originally Posted by delphiniumpansy View Post
I don't think there was a breech at all. I don't think the study was compromied. I think 2 placebo group kids got rota from two control group kids and I see that as no big deal at all.
if it were so simple, they would have made that connection.
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#95 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 09:49 PM
 
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I don't think the study was compromied.
To me the problem is that I don't know if it was compromised, and I don't think they know either.
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#96 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 11:20 PM
 
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I'm wondering what the outcome for "human health" is if a bovine/human reassoratant rotavirus "takes off" in the human population?

The primary selective pressure would obviously be transmission. Replication in the gut (causing traditional rotavirus disease) would come next....but what kind of cell tropism might pop up with a bovine rotavirus in humans?

It was only a couple of years ago that "they" figured out that rotavirus infection involves viremia (the virus replicates in the blood and 'infects' the whole body, not just the gut).

So what happens with this bovine/human rotavirus mutant when it's "serial passaged"
through multiple babies/kids?
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#97 of 112 Old 02-08-2008, 11:31 PM
 
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You are a fussbudget Mamakay. Don't you realize that these science guys are on top of all this? I'm sure they know exactly what they are doing and what the long-term consequences will be. They have such a great track record to date, after all!
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#98 of 112 Old 02-09-2008, 12:04 AM
 
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So who knows anything about competing brands in the works?
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#99 of 112 Old 02-10-2008, 05:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by delphiniumpansy View Post
I think 2 placebo group kids got rota from two control group kids and I see that as no big deal at all.
I see this as a big deal because it pisses me off to NO END that my kids got rotovirus from a vaccinated child. Do I care that we got roto? Nah, not really. Illness is illness and it's the season. We take our Vit C, wash our hands often and drink plenty of fluids. But, when a parent KNOWINGLY exposes a freshly vaxed child and his contaminated stool to my family because a group of scientists decide that's acceptable it pisses me off. Why spread it on purpose to healthy kids????

I don't even take my kids to other people's houses when they have a cough or suspicious sniffle!

Did rotovirus suck? Yes. Was it gross? Yes.....oh, my gosh, what it EVER THE MOST DISGUSTING THING I've ever been through. Even though we went through that, I still wouldn't get the vax. The ingredients alone are enough to seal the deal. I'll take my chances with uncompromised immune systems and (semi)natural strains of diseases that go through the channels our bodies were meant to take them into. My 4 month old, exclusively breastfed baby was the only one that didn't get it. Even my husband and I got it and with me taking care of her all night and nursing, she still didn't get it.

It was at that moment I wish I had put my whole family on an exclusively breastmilk diet.

I don't want to start an additional debate about exposing freshly (live)vaxed kids to the population. I probably won't be back to read on here for another few weeks anyway and wouldn't be able to rebute.
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#100 of 112 Old 02-10-2008, 09:59 PM
 
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My 12 mos old exclusively breastfed baby got rota and it was hell. Pure hell.
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#101 of 112 Old 02-11-2008, 12:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by delphiniumpansy View Post
My 12 mos old exclusively breastfed baby got rota and it was hell. Pure hell.
Our experience with rotavirus was so minor, and I know some mommas have had babes with really bad cases, but I wonder if my babe fared so easily because she was exclusively breast fed with an intact immune system and unhampered gut flora?

Are there other mommas with unvaccinated, no anti-biotics, no-reason-why-the-gut-flora-would-be-comprised kids who had a bad case?

I suppose any baby could refuse to nurse and end up seriously dehydrated, but I am just curious.

It seems to me this virus became much more serious from more modern interventions of the maturity of a healthy digestive tract.

::: Just another WAHM using this forum to put off picking up toys and cleaning my house.
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#102 of 112 Old 02-11-2008, 12:36 AM
 
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My kids did not get this until 3 and 18 monthish respectively (at the same time on an overseas trip to visist sick relatives which we ended up having to cancel most of and flushed a whole lot of cash down the toliet-- which is an apt metaphor to use with this disease )

THe were both breastfed and the little guy is still being breastfed. We had no huge problems, no dehydration or anything....besides the headache, the worrying, and the frustration of the trip and the sadness of not getting to see people who may not be there next time we are able to go.

So really it was hard for us and it's hard for me to say the whole thing was "no big deal" . It was hard (and still is) to think about the vaccine in light of what happened and to know we need to make the decision again soon with a new babe coming. BUt we have still decided not to do this one, barring new information becoming available to us.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#103 of 112 Old 02-11-2008, 09:05 AM
 
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I think 2 placebo group kids got rota from two control group kids and I see that as no big deal at all.
I know this isnt the concern here, but, honestly, I think it is a REALLY big deal that the vax sheds and infects healthy children that would otherwise not be exposed to it.

And the thing that makes me even more upset is that parents are not informed by their docs that their newly vaxed children may pass this to family/ friends.

Why arent children that receive vaxes that shed made to stay home (from school, etc) during the shedding period? Wouldnt that make sense?

I wonder if that info would deter people from having this vax?

All to try and avoid vomitting and diarrhea

  homeschooling, earth loving Mama to 3 crazy, wonderful boys, ages 10 & 7, & 3 mos.,3 spirit babies                                Inch by inch, row by row.  Gonna make this garden grow  
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#104 of 112 Old 02-11-2008, 10:49 AM
 
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I know this isnt the concern here, but, honestly, I think it is a REALLY big deal that the vax sheds and infects healthy children that would otherwise not be exposed to it.

And the thing that makes me even more upset is that parents are not informed by their docs that their newly vaxed children may pass this to family/ friends.

Why arent children that receive vaxes that shed made to stay home (from school, etc) during the shedding period? Wouldnt that make sense?
I want to know these answers as well. It seems if we really wanted to prevent children from getting rotovirus we would take the necessary precautions with children that have recently been vaccinated for it. Since I've never heard (read about ect) a doctor or parent who vaxxes care about that I have to wonder why that is.
I have no idea if any of my kids have had rotovirus (I assume they most likely have, especially the older two). Back before the vaccine was available no one talked about rotovirus and it was never mentioned when I brought my older kids to the doctor for stomach viruses. Stomach viruses in general just suck. We've had some nasty ones. But I would not vaccinate my children with a rotovirus vaccine.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#105 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 02:10 AM
 
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Okay, so we had our bout of it almost 3 weeks ago. My kids are 7 and 3. The 7 yo was admitted for dehydration and, at that time, they suspected that it was appendicitis based on his symptoms. BTW, we went to the ER since the 3yo had febral (sp?) siezures. She was released after 3 hours (when the fever came down). He was admitted with a 103° fever and the dehydration. It certainly wasn't fun. But the 2 of them were symptom-free by day 3, running around and wanting real food.

The reason I'm posting is because, once they determined it was Roto (from the looks and smell of the diahhrea, and of course the lab test) he was discharged. Upon leaving, the nurse told us to make sure we wash our hand thoroughly since the disease could be spread back and forth. Dh asked if there is any natural immunity and she said no. Made us feel relieved that we didn't vax. However, from seeing this orginal post, it seems that the nursing staff at the hospital are misinformed about the immunity situation.?

Oh! And there seems to be a big case of it going around out here. The preschool I work at had a LOT of children sent home because of it. (My kids are homeschooled, btw). So, if the vax works, why so many kids getting it? (There aren't many children at the school who vax-free.).
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#106 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 02:16 AM
 
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The preschool I work at had a LOT of children sent home because of it. (My kids are homeschooled, btw). So, if the vax works, why so many kids getting it? (There aren't many children at the school who vax-free.).
It's a new vax. It wasn't available when dd was an infant and she's only 3.5yrs now. And then even once it was available, it takes awhile to be mandated in states.

-Angela
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#107 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 02:34 AM
 
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Upon leaving, the nurse told us to make sure we wash our hand thoroughly since the disease could be spread back and forth. Dh asked if there is any natural immunity and she said no. Made us feel relieved that we didn't vax. However, from seeing this orginal post, it seems that the nursing staff at the hospital are misinformed about the immunity situation.?
She was mostly wrong but a little bit right.
Some diseases, like measles and mumps, you generally only get once and that's it. Rotavirus you can get many times, but the first time tends to be the worst, and each time you get it it becomes increasingly milder.
If there was no such thing as immunity to it, nobody would ever recover from it.
She was totally off about everyone in the family passing it back and forth for forever. After you've had rotavirus, you're immune for a while. You could get a milder infection with a different strain, though. But that wouldn't be re-catching the same bug you just got over.
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#108 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mountainsun View Post
I know this isnt the concern here, but, honestly, I think it is a REALLY big deal that the vax sheds and infects healthy children that would otherwise not be exposed to it.

And the thing that makes me even more upset is that parents are not informed by their docs that their newly vaxed children may pass this to family/ friends.

Why arent children that receive vaxes that shed made to stay home (from school, etc) during the shedding period? Wouldnt that make sense?

I wonder if that info would deter people from having this vax?

All to try and avoid vomitting and diarrhea
I don't think the study people are concerned that 2 children out of 72,000 got rota while in the placebo group. Even if that translated into real life, that is still a very small number of children affected by shedding, if shedding was even the problem. We do not know how they got the rota.

In real life, I have never heard of anyone getting any VPD from shedding. Good hygeine protocols, such as hand washing after diaper changes, should prevent any transmission of any VPD that may be live. So, since shedding is really very rare and caused by poor diaper changing protocol, it is not good info to try to deter people. Just change diapers carefully and wash up afterward and you will be fine.
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#109 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 03:28 PM
 
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Even if that translated into real life, that is still a very small number of children affected by shedding, if shedding was even the problem. We do not know how they got the rota.
A small umber of children in the placebo group who also happened to get their stools tested while they were shedding.

That means there's a chance they spread the viruses to lots and lots and lots of other kids.
Quote:
So, since shedding is really very rare and caused by poor diaper changing protocol,
And how do you know that's the only way vaccine-strain bovine/human rotavirus spreads? Is that the only way "normal" rotavirus is transmitted?
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#110 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 03:29 PM
 
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We don't actually know how often rotavirus is spread from vaccinated children. I don't think we can dismiss the issue so quickly.
Plus, I don't know anyone irl who knows about shedding. And from reading the handwashing thread here I realize many people do not wash their hands (oh and from watching people's lack of hand washing in public restrooms, eeewww). I have never had a ped talk to me about shedding back when I vaccinated my children. I bet doctors that discuss shedding are the exception not the rule.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#111 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 04:42 PM
 
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Um, yeah, I had never heard of shedding from a ped.

And while maybe anecdotal, I have heard lots of stories about families coming down with vomit/ diarrhea, many times around a vax.

Not to mention vaxed babies' themselves.

I think that if some parents knew more about any of the controversy/ side effects/ dangers of certain vaccines, it would deter many. Unfortunately, they do not get the "other side" from the peds. If a ped said, "Be careful, rotavirus will be in your childs stool for X many days. Be careful, take extra care and precaution with hygiene, make sure to tell family and daycare/ school, etc. etc." Well, I think parents might think again about giving it.

The truth is, vaccines ARE NOT benign, esp. rotavirus vax.

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#112 of 112 Old 02-12-2008, 08:24 PM
 
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I'm wondering about handwashing protocol. For most disease situations, just sticking your hands under hot water long enough to get wet, adding soap and rubbing for a few more seconds and then rinsing, won't take care of the problem. I believe it is necessary to soap up and then rub your soapy hands together for 30 seconds or more.

Anybody in health care know what an effective protocol would be? Let's say you are working with someone who has the runs. Of course you are wearing rubber gloves, but I expect you are also supposed to wash your hands and every patient. How long? What kind of soap?
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