How do you feel about vaccinating in very underdeveloped countries? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-05-2008, 05:07 PM
 
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I believe it is a band aide... fix the real problem, and up the immune system... In all honesty, we could do a lot more good, sending seeds to grow crops, and water filters, and sanitation.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:16 PM
 
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But if we are just going to band-aid, there are gentler band-aids, too. The WHO is already giving vit. A with the measles shot (and who knows which is REALLY behind the reduced fatalities?), why not eschew the shots altogether and just give lots of vitamins? Why not give the local clinics loads of vit. C (it's cheap) and instructions as to how to administer it in IV form? And don't tell me that is too risky, compared to loading malnourished kids with 10 doses of OPV and then spraying them with DDT.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
All of them. Pretty much every virus is shed in stool. Exposure to raw sewage can expose one to smallpox, measles, pertussis, diptheria, etc.
As far as I've read poliovirus and rotavirus are the only vpd's transmitted in stool.

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Old 11-05-2008, 06:40 PM
 
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There is no denying that vaccines in third world countries have saved lives. Look at smallpox in India. The question is, what is the cost and is it worth it?
Just a quick question for anybody who may know- are those people actually tested for polio is it just assumed anyone with paralysis in India has polio?
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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Gitti, injecting a chemically weakened or biologically altered pathogen without an adjuvant may not be effective, but injecting a straight pathogen is.
Really?
Has that been tested? I would like to read that study.


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Pretty much every virus is shed in stool. Exposure to raw sewage can expose one to smallpox, measles, pertussis, diptheria, etc.
The live vaccine virus is also a part of that.


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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
That is to say there is not enough seroconversion with just the primary antigen. So, they tack stuff on that the body really hates and will fight harder to get rid of.
That in a malnourished, dehydrated child. I just don't see how that can be beneficial.


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Just a quick question for anybody who may know- are those people actually tested for polio is it just assumed anyone with paralysis in India has polio?
I have often wondered about that. India uses insecticides/herbicides that are outlawed in other countries. They still use DDT which caused a lot of paralysis in the US when it was in use. Even the cows and other life stalk were diagnosed as having had polio when that spray was used. One governor stated the vaccine worked so well that not one shot had to be given. That after outlawing DDT.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Gitti;12547376
I have often wondered about that. [B
India uses insecticides/herbicides that are outlawed in other countries. They still use DDT which caused a lot of paralysis in the US when it was in use[/B]. Even the cows and other life stalk were diagnosed as having had polio when that spray was used. One governor stated the vaccine worked so well that not one shot had to be given. That after outlawing DDT.
That's what I was thinking,too.

I think just assuming they have polio is dangerous b/c they may not be getting to treatment they need, not to mention possible environmental causes are ignored.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:40 PM
 
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AFAIK, the issue of getting the lab tests is a problem, in Africa as well. The WHO is so desperate to cover its behind, that it is all concerned about local "labs" having the resources to collect and store and transport samples for analysis. I cannot remember, for the life of me, where I was reading that, of course!
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Really?
Has that been tested? I would like to read that study.


You really don't need a study. Take a syringe, load it full of live virus. Inject it. You'll probably get the disease and if you survive it, you'll have some degree of immunity.

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Old 11-05-2008, 11:44 PM
 
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I really thought it HADN'T worked that way. Have you read the Puerto Rico transcript? The first speaker talks about how they did that, and similar things using just antigens that were generated from prior immune responses, with diptheria, and it was problematic. Have you heard that as well? The transcript isn't footnoted, and I haven't ever followed up, because I am so new to the immunology that I am learning what questions to ask.
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Old 11-05-2008, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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An immune response doesn't generate antigens. The antigen in an immune response is the pathogen/allergen. So, I'm confused as to what you mean exactly.

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Old 11-05-2008, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Are you perhaps referring to antigen/antibody complexes?

ETA: I haven't read the Puerto Rico transcript. Do you have a link?

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Old 11-06-2008, 12:28 AM
 
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This is an interesting discussion.

So, if vaccines are needed because of poor sanitation and living conditions, what does that do to the endless recitation of this mantra: "We have to keep vaccination rates high or the diseases will come back and kill thousands of children."

Something doesn't seem to fit together quite right.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Deborah, yeah, I think that's a crock, personally. In the developed world there seems to be very little need for active vaccination. I can see a need for passive immunity (anti-venin, gamma globulin shots for RSV in extremely premature infants etc) but not the standard vaccine schedule the way it is used here.

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Old 11-06-2008, 01:12 AM
 
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We live in a Third World country and don't vax.

I have tried to get my children some of the VPD's and so far, only one had Chicken Pox.

People aren't exactly dropping dead in the millions because they have no Pneumococcal-Prevnar, Meningitis, etc. vaccines! I think the only ones they do here are Hep B newborn Oral Polio and the DPT (yes, the whole cell pertussis). Sorry, and prob. the MMR but not sure.

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Liora. Best way to reach me is FACEBOOK, search for "LioraP2". Jewish and Frum In Beijing, Mom of Three (mother of 3: #1 was vaccine injured at age 2m later dx with PDD-NOS, healed in 3 years with biomed. #2 unvaxed and healthy boy. #3 unvaxed amazing girl with Down syndrome using Targeted Nutritional Intervention (TNI) since infancy)
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I wasn't aware that China was considered a 3rd world country.

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Old 11-06-2008, 01:33 AM
 
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You really don't need a study. Take a syringe, load it full of live virus. Inject it. You'll probably get the disease and if you survive it, you'll have some degree of immunity.
Not necessarily. That depends on your immune system!


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I wasn't aware that China was considered a 3rd world country.
Europe is considered the 1st world. The Americas is the 2nd world. And everything else is considered the 3rd world.

Or politically correct - the developing world.
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:31 AM
 
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It makes me wonder sometimes how easy it is for someone to be in a different place and just assume that people are just dropping dead in underdeveloped countries (and I so loathe the term 'third world countries') It feels like a punch in my face. Almost daily we read news about infants dying right after 'manadatory' vaccinations. Sometimes they say no reason known or in some cases tainted vaccines! Please tell me why should these small babies and their families face the brunt of this farce?

People would be a lot more happier and healthier in these places if we could give them access to clean water, nutritious food and educate them on the importance of these things. No that sounds way too tough...hey lets inject some crap into them and tell them they will be fine no matter what! That way the poor just die sooner and the big pockets just keep on filling.

Please read some of these links below
http://www.healthp.org/node/17

http://www.popline.org/docs/1329/148929.html

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/325/7373/1170

I know what the conditions are in my country and I know that only if the WHO and all the so called 'concerned' organizations try to help the poor people with proper education and importance of clean water, good diet etc then there would not be so many statistics for them to include in their 'vaccine success charts.'

And there have been so many reported cases if children getting paralytic polio after getting repeated doses of OPV. It is such a vicious circle and most of the innocent parents think they are doing the right thing by lining up for the 'two drops of life' program. I am disgusted and saddened by the state of affairs and more so because now they are trying to include other vaccines like HiB too. There is no data to show what the rates of HiB disease is in India and I don't fathom why they would want to include this one too now. THe Hep B is already given in most of the modern hospitals and so is Prevnar!
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Old 11-06-2008, 04:41 AM
 
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Europe is considered the 1st world. The Americas is the 2nd world. And everything else is considered the 3rd world.

Or politically correct - the developing world.
No. The origins of the term are political. The "first world" was the West--Europe, the US, Canada etc. The "second" was Communist nations and "third" non-aligned. Over time it came to equal developing nations.

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Old 11-06-2008, 11:07 AM
 
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Yes, I prefer to call it/talk about it terms of developing nations. If you are wondering the status of a country and the disease incidence in that country, you can look at the WHO Global Summary. AT the top, it will tell you whether the country is least developed, developing, economy in transition, developed economy, etc.

http://www.who.int/vaccines-document...balSummary.pdf


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It makes me wonder sometimes how easy it is for someone to be in a different place and just assume that people are just dropping dead in underdeveloped countries (and I so loathe the term 'third world countries') It feels like a punch in my face.
Yes yes yes!


the document above can also help people try and think about countries in terms of what is actually going on there. Georgia, for example, is an economy in transition. You can go an d look this up and see what makes it so...and then perhaps you can think about Georgia not in terms of raw sewage all over the streets.



And I agree there needs to some thinking about the vaccine system being used in the developing world.

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Old 11-06-2008, 11:08 AM
 
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Not necessarily. That depends on your immune system!




Europe is considered the 1st world. The Americas is the 2nd world. And everything else is considered the 3rd world.

Or politically correct - the developing world.
Gitti, I was always taught that Europe and the US are considered bloc 1, former Soviet and current Communist countries bloc 2, Africa, India, Southeast Asia, parts of South America, bloc 3.

Not that it matters, what we are talking about is distinguishing places based on access to sanitation, nutrition and healthcare, but I just wanted to differ on the above statement.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:12 AM
 
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Are you perhaps referring to antigen/antibody complexes?

ETA: I haven't read the Puerto Rico transcript. Do you have a link?
Well, I *think* I mean the problematic part of the pathogen, like tuberculin. So perhaps it is the same as what you were saying earlier. You isolate the tuberculin toxin. You inject just that. It DOES elicit an immune reponse, boy howdy! But not what you were looking for.

http://www.autismhelpforyou.com/Simp...%20%20Rico.htm
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Nirvana, if you are referring to my OP with this
Quote:
It makes me wonder sometimes how easy it is for someone to be in a different place and just assume that people are just dropping dead in underdeveloped countries (and I so loathe the term 'third world countries') It feels like a punch in my face.
I assure you that you are mistaken in my intent. You'll notice that in my OP, I refered directly to those people who are obliged to live in abject poverty and are exposed to many sources of disease on a daily basis (sewage contamination, lack of clean drinking water, little resources). Please don't assume that I have not witnesssed these atrocities first hand. With respect, you would be wrong. Again, with respect, it's a pretty humbling and devastating experience to watch a child die who should not have. Perhaps it is misguided to try and prevent this sort of thing with modern vaccines, perhaps it isn't. The purpose of my starting this thread was to gain a general understanding of the opinions here. I do know that when you're holding a dying baby in your arms, most would do almost anything to try and prevent such an event from continuing to occur. I say this with humility: Yes, the best solution is to provide an economy, education, clean water and nutrition. This will take time. Some don't have the luxury of time. So what do we do in the mean time? I don't necessarily think vaccines are the answer and I'm not trying to imply that they are.

ETA: The only reason I mentioned smallpox and India is that it is largely considered a "Vaccine Success Story" from the past. It's always brought up as a sort of "Throw it in your face" sort of argument whenever I oppose vaccination in discussion with ID doctors.


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Well, I *think* I mean the problematic part of the pathogen, like tuberculin. So perhaps it is the same as what you were saying earlier. You isolate the tuberculin toxin. You inject just that. It DOES elicit an immune reponse, boy howdy! But not what you were looking for.
This is something a bit more intricate than what I thought we were discussing, so forgive me for any further misunderstanding. The body's reaction to tuberculin (extracts of Mycobacterium of several species) has more to do with hypersensitivity than an active immune response. They are both immune responses, but very different in their nature. Tuberculin in of itself is not strictly a pathogen in that by itself it isn't a disease causing agent. It is still antigenic, but not pathogenic (disease causing). Upthread I said that most pathogens are antigens but not all antigens are pathogens.

Hypersensitivity is IgE and IgG mediated while a typical active immune response is IgG, IgA and IgM mediated.

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Old 11-06-2008, 01:02 PM
 
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Okay. So, in the earlier posts, what did you (and Gitti) mean by "injecting pathogens." Would you just load up a syringe with saliva or mucus from an infected person? I mean, obviously YOU wouldn't, but is that what you guys meant?
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not necessarily. That depends on your immune system!
With respect, what about your immune system does it depend on?



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Europe is considered the 1st world. The Americas is the 2nd world. And everything else is considered the 3rd world.

Or politically correct - the developing world.
My appologies, this is not what I was taught.


Lets take the "3rd world" label out of the equation and instead refer to very underdeveloped countries.

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Old 11-06-2008, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay. So, in the earlier posts, what did you (and Gitti) mean by "injecting pathogens." Would you just load up a syringe with saliva or mucus from an infected person? I mean, obviously YOU wouldn't, but is that what you guys meant?
No, I was referring to a pure culture of a bacteria or a virus. So, you'd take some kind of bodily fluid from an infected person, put it in selective media, plate it, isolate it and grow it up in broth. Then spin it down, put it in serum, buffered saline or something and then inject it.

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Old 11-06-2008, 01:49 PM
 
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It's pretty easy to show vaccine success when you look at the measles vaccine. It is highly effective and prevents transmission. I have tons of studies on that.

eta-- the example of measles might serve better than small pox since we have "here and now" studies on it

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Old 11-06-2008, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lioralourie View Post
We live in a Third World country and don't vax.

I have tried to get my children some of the VPD's and so far, only one had Chicken Pox.

People aren't exactly dropping dead in the millions because they have no Pneumococcal-Prevnar, Meningitis, etc. vaccines! I think the only ones they do here are Hep B newborn Oral Polio and the DPT (yes, the whole cell pertussis). Sorry, and prob. the MMR but not sure.

liora in Beijing
RE China, according to the WHO site, China's vaccine schedule is:

BCG birth;
DT 6 years;
DTaP 3, 4, 5, 18-24 months; Part of country
DTwP 3, 4, 5, 18-24 months;
HepA 18, 18-30 months; Part of country
HepB birth; 1, 6 months;

JapEnc 8 months; 2 years; Part of country
[or 8 months (x2); 2, 6 years;]
Measles 8, 18-24 months;
MenA 6-18 months (x2); Part of country
MenAC 2, 6 years; Part of country
MMR 18-24 months; Part of country
MR 8 months; Part of country
OPV 2, 3, 4 months; 4 years;
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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No, I was referring to a pure culture of a bacteria or a virus. So, you'd take some kind of bodily fluid from an infected person, put it in selective media, plate it, isolate it and grow it up in broth. Then spin it down, put it in serum, buffered saline or something and then inject it.
And has this been done and what percentage of people got the particular disease? There probably aren't any recent attempts at this kind of experimentation because of "ethics", but surely these kinds of experiments were done in the past?

Am I misunderstanding? Is the point just to mount an anti-body response? If so, how does this prove immunity? Would you then inject the concoction and see if someone gets sick or not -- the exact same disease?

This hypothesis is totally based on the germ theory, which is very shaky ground IMO. There is so much more to getting "sick" than a so-called germ.

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Old 11-06-2008, 03:54 PM
 
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It's pretty easy to show vaccine success when you look at the measles vaccine. It is highly effective and prevents transmission. I have tons of studies on that.

eta-- the example of measles might serve better than small pox since we have "here and now" studies on it
How much of that is related to vit. A, though?

uccomama, I don't think pumpkinhead is advocating that approach! I think we just got into a discussion of what it would mean and whether it was done, as a result of a comment early in the thread.
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Old 11-06-2008, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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uccomama, I don't think pumpkinhead is advocating that approach! I think we just got into a discussion of what it would mean and whether it was done, as a result of a comment early in the thread.

Exactly .

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