How do you feel about vaccinating in very underdeveloped countries? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Where access to clean water is not a given and contact with raw sewage is?

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#2 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Someone asked me this question this evening and it made me think. This isn't meant as a challenge ftr, I'm just curious.

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#3 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:08 AM
 
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I haven't figured this out for myself either, and in my case it is a potential situation DD and I could face. I'll be interested to hear how others weigh in on this.
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#4 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:12 AM
 
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I think it's just putting a bandaid on a problem instead of solving the problem itself (nutrition, sanitation,etc.)

I think it can be downright harmful to do it b/c there are some organizations and individuals that have other things in mind besides saving people from disease.

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#5 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, vaccination is cheap compared to providing proper sanitation and nutrition.

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#6 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:16 AM
 
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I think it's not a simple answer. Of course, the real answer is to provide clean water and sanitation... however it's not as easy as it sounds.

I think individual situations need to be analyzed. There's no one right answer.

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#7 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by honeybunch2k8 View Post
I think it's just putting a bandaid on a problem instead of solving the problem itself (nutrition, sanitation,etc.)
My thoughts exactly.

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#8 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:24 AM
 
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I was going to say that the gov't will help give them some food as long as they'll take our gmos but I'm in a silly mood now.
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#9 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:31 AM
 
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Since I truly believe vaccines do only harm and no good, the lack of clean water (most likely also lack of nutrition) would make them even more toxic.

Imo it take stamina to offset the onslaught of vaccines. A child that is not healthy has much less of a chance to rid his body of it.
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#10 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I disagree that all types of vaccinations do only harm and no good. I think the idea of vaccination is a sound one. Gain immunity through mild infection in an attempt to ward off serious illness. However, I think that the whole "no sickness, all benefit" that vaccine manufacturers have taken is impossible. Somehow, we are going to be harmed whether it is through legitimate illness or hidden toxins whose harm comes later.

There is no denying that vaccines in third world countries have saved lives. Look at smallpox in India. The question is, what is the cost and is it worth it?

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#11 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 06:31 AM
 
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There is no denying that vaccines in third world countries have saved lives. Look at smallpox in India. The question is, what is the cost and is it worth it?
I would like to know if you have any references for this statement.

I am from India and I know my dad received the Smallpox vaccine. He then immediately got tuberculosis which is said to be very common after having received this vaccine. To top it, I got a different form of TB infection at the age of 3 inspite of getting the BCG vaccine at birth. So I am very much interested in what you know about vaccines and under develpoped countries.
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#12 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 09:49 AM
 
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Nirvana4freedom, I think you make a GREAT point! All these discussions involve armchair analysis and assumptions about the developing world, and the former Soviet bloc, from afar. All my data comes from the WHO and the UN, (both of which I loathe btw), and then the occasional assertion about how mothers in such and such a place are so grateful, would give their right arms, etc. How do those on the receiving end of this initiative feel about it? How much information do parents get in these situations?

My feeling is that the pharmas and the WHO/UN collude (both for financial and psychic benefit) to push these vaccinations, tested or not, risky or not, onto folks who haven't had access to a broad range of information (sort of like exposing a virgin population to smallpox, if you will), and then carefully manipulating the follow-up to show a positive result. And who can blame them? They probably mostly believe they are doing good, and they have so very much invested, they couldn't be completely wrong, right?
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#13 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 09:57 AM
 
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My hubby and I are planning to travel quite a bit in central and south america and we know people who have gotten diptheria. It is awful. So that is the one vacc we decided to get our dd. But I think it is pretty obvious that vaccines are not going to make nearly as big a difference as clean water and better nutrition.

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#14 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 09:59 AM
 
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I think vaccinating a population that is starving and has no access to clean water is not much of a solution. I am very much for informed consent and that doesn't even happen here (US) inregards to vaccinations and it surely doesn't happen there. I think it is a bandaid solution for sure and I don't think it in the long run will do much to better their lives or keep them well. I think the focus should be on clean water, food and sustainability.
I just don't think injecting people with weakened immune systems due to severe malutrition is a good idea. I wonder how well there bodies can really handle the vaccines.

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#15 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 10:44 AM
 
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which specific vaccines prevent diseases which arise as a result of exposure to raw sewage?
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#16 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
I disagree that all types of vaccinations do only harm and no good. I think the idea of vaccination is a sound one. Gain immunity through mild infection in an attempt to ward off serious illness.
Then an injection of specific pathogens only ought to bring about that result. But it does not. When pathogens are injected without adjuvants, the body builds no immunity. It has been tested in Switzerland. Source - Anita Petek Dimmer's ch site.


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There is no denying that vaccines in third world countries have saved lives. Look at smallpox in India.
Again, that is not fact. Quarantine is what pretty much eliminated smallpox. The vaccine came after quarantine had done the job.


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My hubby and I are planning to travel quite a bit in central and south america and we know people who have gotten diptheria. It is awful.
Even a simple cold is awful in a starving child.
But Diphtheria can get very severe in people who are malnourished, homeless, or alcoholics. Otherwise it is not really an issue.

Look at Russia. The most vaccinated people on the globe up to a time when the USSR fell apart and cause massive job loss, devastation, homelessness, starvation... even some of the most vaccinated got diphtheria.
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#17 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Gitti, injecting a chemically weakened or biologically altered pathogen without an adjuvant may not be effective, but injecting a straight pathogen is. However, injecting a straight, healthy pathogen might also result in full blown disease as well.

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#18 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
which specific vaccines prevent diseases which arise as a result of exposure to raw sewage?

All of them. Pretty much every virus is shed in stool. Exposure to raw sewage can expose one to smallpox, measles, pertussis, diptheria, etc.

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#19 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Nirvana4freedom View Post
I would like to know if you have any references for this statement.

I am from India and I know my dad received the Smallpox vaccine. He then immediately got tuberculosis which is said to be very common after having received this vaccine. To top it, I got a different form of TB infection at the age of 3 inspite of getting the BCG vaccine at birth. So I am very much interested in what you know about vaccines and under develpoped countries.
Do you have journal access?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3...ubmed_RVDocSum

This one may have free full text available
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

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#20 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:13 PM
 
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Injection of an antigen provokes an immune response, but it doesn't result in immunity, I don't think. The pathogen is covered with antigens, as I understand it. In the early days of vaccine experiments, they tried to inject folks with antigens that had been produced by challenges in other individuals, and it was a big disaster. Hence the adjuvants. Am I mistaken?
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#21 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:15 PM
 
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Bad vaccine reactions are increased in the presence of HIV, immunodeficiency and malnutrition, which is purportedly common in sub-Saharan Africans. So why is this not being considered?
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Laboratory tests revealed estrogen and other female sex hormones in the polio vaccine, proof that the vaccines were contaminated with substances that could cause sterility. Furthermore, Nigerian officials became aware of internet reports suggesting the WHO vaccine might be contaminated with HIV (the AIDS virus) and other cancer-causing viruses.
http://www.**********/general54/Cance..._vaccinesR.htm
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#23 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:28 PM
 
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I believe some vaccine are effective. The Measles vaccine has been extremely effective in many parts of the developing world; however, I go back to the analogy of the people drowning in the river. It has to be a two pronged attack. Someone has to stick around and deal with the "here and now" [vaccines] while some have to go to the beginning of the river and figure out what is going on and fix that [water systems, infrastructure, dealing with corrupt regimes that do not pass wealth to the people...etc]

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#24 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 12:57 PM
 
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I believe that people with no access to fresh food and clean water should not be injected with known neurotoxins or have their already compromised immune systems further damaged by vaccination. If it is not good enough for my well-fed, healthy son, it is not good enough for a malnourished, dehydrated child who lives in filthy squalor and is already suffering from intestinal parasites, rickets, scurvy, etc.

Further, I do not believe that mass vaccination programs provide truly informed consent to the vaccinated. They certainly don't here; why would they bother elsewhere?

Finally, there is the issue of vaccines seemingly being "accidentally" tainted with hormonal contraceptives. A provocative talk about it can be watched here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...06663412840646

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#25 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 01:37 PM
 
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If it is not good enough for my well-fed, healthy son, it is not good enough for a malnourished, dehydrated child who lives in filthy squalor and is already suffering from intestinal parasites, rickets, scurvy, etc.
:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...s&client=opera

Such a waste of money

http://www.theecologist.org/pages/ar...content_id=278
Oh, so that's why they're doing it
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#26 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
Injection of an antigen provokes an immune response, but it doesn't result in immunity, I don't think. The pathogen is covered with antigens, as I understand it. In the early days of vaccine experiments, they tried to inject folks with antigens that had been produced by challenges in other individuals, and it was a big disaster. Hence the adjuvants. Am I mistaken?
An immune response is what results in immunity. An antigen is basically a molecule that the body recognizes as foriegn and then mounts an immune reponse against through the production of antibodies. In many cases a pathogen is an antigen, but not all antigens are pathogens. An adjuvant is basically anything that enhances an antigenic immune response.

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#27 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 02:27 PM
 
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How do you feel about vaccinating in third world countries?
This is one of the main fall back stances of the vaccine movement. It goes like this, "if it wasn't for vaccination, millions of innocent little Africans would be dead right now." It's such an overwhelming opinion held by so many people that it is just accepted as fact. To even think otherwise is heresy.

I wonder if the Africans wouldn't just rather be left alone. I still recall the rather funny PBS show that had the WHO suv's driving around to the villages in Africa. The doctors would jump out and chase the little kids trying to give them their shots. The kids would run away. Then the doctors would talk to the camera about how the poor, ignorant people just didn't understand the help being offered. I'm thinking, the "poor, ignorant people" knew EXACTLY what was being offered.

How often are those third world countries being used as huge tax write-offs? Vaccines that were never used because so and so outbreak never happened are "given" to those poor, ignorant people. The foundations get all kinds of accolades and get rid of stuff they never would have gotten rid of otherwise.

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#28 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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To elaborate further, most antigenic vaccine ingredients strictly related to the disease they are vaccinating against are not sufficient on their own to mount an adequate immune response to convey immunity. That is to say there is not enough seroconversion with just the primary antigen. So, they tack stuff on that the body really hates and will fight harder to get rid of. In the process of recognizing the adjuvant, the antigen gets identified and antibodies are made against it.

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#29 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 03:35 PM
 
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People who bathe, cook, drink, and play in water that contains feces from millions of people (and animals) is not the best way for anyone, healthy or otherwise to remain healthy. You improve your water, offer fresh, healthy, regular foods, then yea, they will see a turn in people's health. But rather then try to accomplish that task, they shoot very unhealthy people with bad lifestyles (not by choice) with vaccines and call it a day :

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine. It's like putting the cart before the horse. Rather then help these people improve their living conditions, they just offer vaccines. Do they help, yea they probably do, but are you really making great advancements over there? IMO, you really aren't until you deal with the underlining issues.

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#30 of 119 Old 11-05-2008, 03:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pumpkinhead View Post
An immune response is what results in immunity. An antigen is basically a molecule that the body recognizes as foriegn and then mounts an immune reponse against through the production of antibodies. In many cases a pathogen is an antigen, but not all antigens are pathogens. An adjuvant is basically anything that enhances an antigenic immune response.
Sure, I understand that. But my point is that the immune response the body makes when it encounters an antigen that has been externally manipulated is not a safe one, or an effective one, at least based on the early experiments (the term "disastrous results" comes up).
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