Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows part 1, **HERE THERE BE SPOILERS** You've been warned! - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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#151 of 164 Old 03-05-2011, 01:20 AM
 
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Well, I filched my sister's copy of Deathly Hallows today, and will re-read it with an eye to Harry as a Christ figure. :p I've been meaning to read it again anyway since watching the last movie.

 

Ambystoma: That makes sense. I wish it had been mentioned in the books, though. You'd think they'd have made the kids take a class on Basic Wandless Magic - just like they taught them how to do magic without speaking words aloud. It seems like a useful survival skill, if nothing else.


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#152 of 164 Old 03-05-2011, 07:23 AM
 
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FWIW, I agree with those who think that JKR infused HP (and the entire series) with allegorical elements from Christianity (and a bunch of other sources) but didn't seek to create a perfect, exact Christian allegory - unlike the Narnia series, for example, or even Pullman's His Dark Materials series (inasmuch as he wanted to write Paradise Lost for children, as a response to Lewis' Narnia.).

 

Regarding the many other noble sacrifices made by characters in HP - as pointed out upthread, not all martyrs figures refer to Christ and there are many other martyrs in Christianity and other religions. It's been a long time since I read the series so I can't offer a solid analysis on this issue. I suspect that the prophecy about a child born on a specific date and Voldemort's focus on Harry, as opposed to Neville (the other possible choice) as his nemesis and Harry's own special qualities all elevate him to special office, as it were. 

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#153 of 164 Old 03-05-2011, 12:08 PM
 
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Voldemort hearing the prophecy about a baby boy being born on a specific day and then seeking out Harry to kill also reminds me of the Biblical story of King Herod.  Herod heard of a prophecy of a boy being born who would grow up to be King and so he had all the infant males under two killed (and Mary and Joseph were able to hide with their baby in Egypt).

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#154 of 164 Old 03-07-2011, 06:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post

 

FWIW, I agree with those who think that JKR infused HP (and the entire series) with allegorical elements from Christianity (and a bunch of other sources) but didn't seek to create a perfect, exact Christian allegory - unlike the Narnia series, for example, or even Pullman's His Dark Materials series (inasmuch as he wanted to write Paradise Lost for children, as a response to Lewis' Narnia.).

 

Regarding the many other noble sacrifices made by characters in HP - as pointed out upthread, not all martyrs figures refer to Christ and there are many other martyrs in Christianity and other religions. It's been a long time since I read the series so I can't offer a solid analysis on this issue. I suspect that the prophecy about a child born on a specific date and Voldemort's focus on Harry, as opposed to Neville (the other possible choice) as his nemesis and Harry's own special qualities all elevate him to special office, as it were. 


 

I was interrupted when I wrote this post, so I just wanted to finish my thought. Although I think that JKR used an allusion to Christ and the resurrection, I think she has deliberately written Harry as unlike Christ in many ways. Despite his supernatural wizard abilities, Harry seems more human and not at all god-like. Harry passionately hates his enemies, he is impatient, stubborn, sometimes unwilling to consider other's views, and often obtuse. Harry may sympathize with those less fortunate, but I doubt he would ever preach (or believe) that the meek shall inherit the earth.

 

I think I had more to say, but it's escaped me now, LOL!! That's the general gist, anyway.  

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#155 of 164 Old 03-07-2011, 12:51 PM
 
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This is off the Christ allegory a little bit, but I'm listening to book 5 right now and why is it that Harry can now see the Thestrals, but he couldn't before. I know he has now seen Cedric die, but didn't he see his mom die, too?

 

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#156 of 164 Old 03-07-2011, 04:46 PM
 
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This is off the Christ allegory a little bit, but I'm listening to book 5 right now and why is it that Harry can now see the Thestrals, but he couldn't before. I know he has now seen Cedric die, but didn't he see his mom die, too?

 

Thoughts?


 

I remember thinking that JKR made an error with the thestrals, for that very reason - Harry saw his parents die. I wonder, though, if it has something to do with not just witnessing or being present at a death, but also comprehending what death means while watching someone die. It would mean that there is a conscious cognitive aspect to perceiving death and to perceiving the thestrals. The infant Harry would not have understood what happened to his parents. When he did come to understand it as a young adult, he no longer had a memory of seeing the event. There is also the possibility that he didn't actually see his parents die, even though he was in the same room. I think it happened in a bedroom? He may have been hiding under the covers of the bed, for example. 

 

 

 

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#157 of 164 Old 03-07-2011, 07:55 PM
 
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#158 of 164 Old 03-08-2011, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My hunch is that's one of those details that got away from JKR, and after the fact she made up an explanation.  JKR said something to the effect that at the end of Goblet of Fire Harry hadn't fully absorbed Cedric's death yet. So he couldn't see thestrals until the end of summer break when he headed back to school, in Order of the Phoenix.

 

About baby Harry I think she said pretty much what you said,  Ollyoxenfree.  Baby Harry witnessed his mom die but was too young to comprehend it. He was still an innocent. 
 

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#159 of 164 Old 03-21-2011, 08:02 AM
 
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So now I'm wondering: how does that all work? Plenty of people sacrificed their lives for love of others during the books - Sirius, for instance. He died protecting Harry, right? Why didn't his sacrifice prevent Bellatrix from hurting Harry? (Well, not that she did, not that I remember, but there doesn't seem to be any implication in the books that she couldn't have...) Or does dying in battle not count - does there have to be a deliberate, conscious choice to die in place of someone else? But then, wasn't Lily's protecting Harry just as instinctive and unpremeditated? I mean, all the anti-Voldemort people who died could be said to have died protecting others in a loving, sacrificial way - Tonks, Lupin, Mad-Eye, Fred - so shouldn't their deaths have given protection to the survivors? What was the "extra" in Harry's sacrifice? Or am I missing something?


My multi-quotes got lost and garbbled, but here I go anyway...James wasn't armed either.  He didn't have a wand.  The difference between Lily and James Potter is that Snape had begged Voldemort to spare Lily.  James and Harry were already marked to die, and Voldemort gave Lily several chances to get out of the way and be spared, but she refused, therefore dying in place of Harry.  It's not that she died protecting Harry, but that she died instead of Harry.


 

 


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#160 of 164 Old 03-21-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:Originally Posted by ramama View Post

 

Quote:
My multi-quotes got lost and garbbled, but here I go anyway...James wasn't armed either.  He didn't have a wand.  The difference between Lily and James Potter is that Snape had begged Voldemort to spare Lily.  James and Harry were already marked to die, and Voldemort gave Lily several chances to get out of the way and be spared, but she refused, therefore dying in place of Harry.  It's not that she died protecting Harry, but that she died instead of Harry.

 

That's right.

 

And yikes.gif that means Snape was instrumental in Voldemort's first death.  I didn't get that before.  I mean, I got that he inadvertently saved baby Harry.  But if he hadn't begged Voldemort to spare Lily then Voldemort wouldn't have died. How interesting. 


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#161 of 164 Old 03-21-2011, 01:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Baby Harry witnessed his mom die but was too young to comprehend it. He was still an innocent.

If he was anything like DD as a one-year-old, he was probably distracted by a crumb in the bedsheets and missed the whole thing. :p

 

Quote:
The difference between Lily and James Potter is that Snape had begged Voldemort to spare Lily.  James and Harry were already marked to die, and Voldemort gave Lily several chances to get out of the way and be spared, but she refused, therefore dying in place of Harry.  It's not that she died protecting Harry, but that she died instead of Harry.

Hmm. OK... that sorta makes sense, I guess?

 

I forgot to update before: I reread Deathly Hallows and yes, the Harry-as-Messiah thing was a bit clearer than I remembered. Sadly, I was struck anew by the poor quality of the writing. I was expecting to appreciate it more after the recent movie, but for the whole last half of the book I just kept thinking "PACING, woman, PACING!". There were a lot of potentially great moments that were ruined by clunkiness, I thought. And I still can't get het up over Hedwig's or Dobby's death (or Mad-Eye's). Fred, yes, but the rest leave me cold.


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#162 of 164 Old 04-18-2011, 07:55 PM
 
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Any objections to me bumping an older thread? I just saw this last night and wanted to comment.


I think what the movie lacked was the music. All of the other movies had music synced with what was going on. Music makes emotion. This one was just....silent. Seriously, I felt like I was watching a movie of the actors and actresses practicing for the movie. I cried when Dumbledore died in the movie. I cried when Sirius died in the movie. When Dobby died in the movie? I didn't shed a tear, but when I read it in the book? Oh goodness, I sobbed.


I know because the book was so long they couldn't include all the scenes, or even some of the connecting scenes...but they excluded several that I would have liked to see. Like Dudley maturing. Like WHY Harry had to leave Privet Drive.


All the other movies left me with the thought, "I can't wait to see that again! That was awesome!" But this one I want to see again, only to try and figure what the heck I missed. At first I thought I found it so dull because I had my attention on our new 2 1/2 week old son, and it was the first time we watched a movie around him, but the further in the movie it got, the more I doubted it was because of him, and more because the movie really was just that dull. Even the what would-be awesome scenes lacked. Like Ron destroying the Horcrux. Awesome graphics, but it lacked the emotion that the book explored so well. The eerie wondering feeling of where Luna really was? Meh. They failed to really put feeling behind that, too. Harry being attacked by Nagini - again, lacked the awesome, fearful emotion. I also would have liked to see better development behind Kreature. Hermione in the movie was very brisk with Kreature..she wasn't like that in the book. On the subject of Hermione.. How about when she was being tortured at Malfoy Manor in the book? No, it really wasn't explained, but the main focus was Ron's reaction. It was powerful. Ron's reaction in the movie was pathetic, I thought.


Well, I think that's all I have to say right now.. I know they were going for "dark", like the book was, but what they thought was dark, was actually bland. You can make some VERY dark movies simply by choosing the right music, and they sure as heck didn't have an issue with choosing the right music in any of the other movies except for this one.

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#163 of 164 Old 04-19-2011, 01:36 PM
 
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Maybe others will agree with you, but I think that the movie seemed dull to you because you have a 2 1/2 week old son. A lovely beautiful distraction, but a distraction none the same for a quiet dark and subtle movie. Could they have made it dark with music absolutely but they went without and I think that it was wonderfully done. I think that while music can be dark it is difficult to convey the bleakness the characters felt with anything but silence. I would recommend enjoying your little one and watching this movie again right before part 2 comes out. :o)

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#164 of 164 Old 04-19-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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You truly think that was why? How interesting..I didn't think I had my mind on him THAT much...hehe.. We'll be watching it again anyway when we get Part 2, so I'll have to check in again then. :)

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