Farenheit 9/11 what did you think - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:20 PM
 
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I think I'm going to see the film this week. Just got off the phone with my very political smarty pants friend and we're going together this week. Will love to hear his impression. I fear I might cry a lot but I doubt he will which is probably good.

re:

Quote:
I don't say this to defend Bush - I honestly don't know what the "right" reaction to that news would be when you are in front of school children...

I indicated earlier that George Stephanopolous indicated that he thought it was more Andrew Card's (shoot, how does he spell his name?) fault not George's ..anyway he thought Andrew should have ushered him away from the kids and simply said, "We'll be right back." Which really would not scare anyone I mean he is the president, he does get important calls...

anyway...there is a link...where Bush's behavior is defended by the principal of the school where he was appearing when the planes hit.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...8993122.htm?1c

and here's another..

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.d...406230347/1004

My smart political friend whom I am seeing F911 with was the one who gave me the links...he pointed out that he doesn't think she (the principal) makes a very good case for the man. I sort of see what he is saying....

Is the argument here really that it was more important for the President of the United States to not panic 40 children than it was for him to find out more about an attack on this country that was currently taking place and to determine if he maybe, like, could or should do something? Or that there was no way he could have gotten out of the room swiftly without panicking them? Or that maybe the children might wind up being panicked anyway over what was going on? Or that he didn't wonder if maybe he was about to be the target of an attack and shouldn't be near those kids? Or that...well, you get the idea.


Again, I suppose it is a bit disconcerting that when the rest of us heard that airplanes were being flown into skyscrapers in New York, we rushed to turn on the news and learn all we could. The man most responsible for national defense sat in a classroom (where he probably shouldn't have been in the first place) and took his own time finding out what was going on. but then, that is sort of just who he is....I think.. really, seriously, I don't think he is a curious guy..who wants to know stuff... maybe he is just comfortable being told stuff on a need to know basis...which really is fine. I just wish he were a regional manager of walmart and not president of the united states..

anyway, like I said, George Stephanopolous does defend him..so there you go...opinions are everywhere...

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#122 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:21 PM
 
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Laura... I'm gonna look at those when I have more time, thank you. but do they address the fact that the Bush admin is currently claiming they nevere said there was a connection and the fact that... well, they did say that?
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#123 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:21 PM
 
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Good thing Kerry wasn't in office at the time... He would have stood up, sat down, stood up....

Ok, just kidding. :LOL
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#124 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:23 PM
 
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Thanks Island Mama... i didn't have the energy to tackle that old chestnut again.
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#125 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:23 PM
 
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I have to say... on the two minutes of research I have done on the reaction issue, there is so much conflicting info! I didn't realize! Do a google search and you will see what I mean.

Bush was in my town when this happend, BTW. Doesn't matter - and we didn't live here at the time - but interesting to me.
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#126 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAmomto1

What on earth was he doing, just sitting there? What was he thinking? What was he waiting for?

He was waiting for someone to tell him what to do...
this shows just how clueless this guy is. he can't do anything on his own- w/o his aides and cabinet.
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#127 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
Laura... I'm gonna look at those when I have more time, thank you. but do they address the fact that the Bush admin is currently claiming they nevere said there was a connection and the fact that... well, they did say that?
It was/is my understanding that they never claimed there was a link between Osama and 9.11, but their assertion was that there WAS a link between SH and Osama and that they were planning together (though not 9.11). Is there something I have missed? Can you link me to an article where they they denied a connection between the two men? I just did a search and didn't find this.

Thanks.
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#128 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 05:45 PM
 
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I don't think it's an old chestnut.

Voiceover:

"Breastmilk."

10 foot tall picture of bottle of wholesome looking milk.

Voiceover:

"Breastmilk."

Mom: "I drank 2 ounces."

Another 10 foot tall picture of bottle of beautiful white milk.

Breastmilk was shown as beautiful and good and important. Let's hear it for breastmilk!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, MM!
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#129 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 06:03 PM
 
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I will be seeing this movie this week and am looking forward to it. I have no problem giving MM my $8 even if I think he is an egotistical maniac. Heck, worst case I get two hours of sitting in a movie. I do not however, want my ticket to go to his opening weekend box office tally so I waited until this week. Call me crazy!

I am actually interested in people who choose not to see the movie at all. It is interesting why they chose to avoid it. Obviously I hold no merit to their views on the ACTUAL movie, but their perceptions are highly valid, IMO of course.

I have a problem with people who are rabid fans of the movie prior to watching it as well. I think people need to be a bit more objective prior to and also perhaps challenge some of what they are watching, I mean agree with MM or not this film is also propaganda on some level.

I think it will be a fabulous experience and am now prebuying my ticket to avoid to lines in my area.
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#130 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 07:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kama'aina mama
currently claiming they nevere said there was a connection and the fact that... well, they did say that?

psst..KM...it's never....
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#131 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 08:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IslandMamma
T


Just jumping in for a second because Bex, I'm not sure that you realize this is an incredibly culturally ignorant, insensitive statement.

Just because a culture holds different beliefs than you does not mean they are oppressed, uneducated, and hateful.

Please think about your statement. I think it could be contrued as very hurtful and uninformed. GWB has nothing to do with it.
I'm sorry it came out that way, I guess I should have said "some people" instead of "people". And, just because a culture holds different beliefs than me DOESN'T mean thay are opressed, uneducated, and hateful, you're right. But they are those things if they are the militant types of animals that can behead innocent people and not think twice about it, yk?
I think they are called militant muslims.....just like Hitler and his gang were militant Christians

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#132 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 09:05 PM
 
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July 29th. I can't wait to see it.

Oh, & SQ..... about 'hatism'...... you know that link you gave? Well, when you click & open, what comes up? An ad that reads '10 out of 10 terrorists agree- anybody but Bush'. You can click on that & get to the Authentic GOP website.

................

Do these folks really think that all fellow citizens who would like to see Bush ousted from office are terrorists, or is that just hyberbolic bullsh!t? And if they really do believe that half the country are terrorists, then what does that say about all the usual hot button topics like.... freedom of whatever???

Man..... you know, I'm actually starting to think that the conservatives really do hate certain groups of people.... I mean, really, they hate them, don't they????

Which kinda explains the vitriol against Michael Moore.....

and I just can't bloody work it out, 'cuz there are some rather nice conservatives on this board

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#133 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 10:14 PM
 
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Bex... you said earlier that you believe or believed that Iraqu had weapons of mass destruction... What on Earth would that have to do with the War on Terrorism... Iraqu is a nation. Lots of nations have WMD,,, Including Hello...US! Why did we pick them??? Think about it a little... and just bc you believe something... Doesn't mean it's a fact. If you're going to cause the amount of destruction as we have over in that country, you better have the UN backing you and other nations... we didn't. AND most important... If you're going to get on national Television and in front of the whole world saying that we are going to war bc Iraqu has WMD, then ya better Darn well be able to back up that claim... and he can't. If they did have them, I'm sure they would've used them on us.... SO your beliefs are wrong.
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#134 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 10:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nursing Mother
This vitriol towards MM is self produced by MM himself imo. He is an instigator of hate in America, it didn't start from the Right, but now since we've all been dragged into this hateful, putrifiying , festering definance our country is experiencing we better get use to it.....or our country will fall from within. (I think it will anyways). We don't need a common enemy, we are our common enemy. We hate each other now. How sad
Sorry about the title, I couldn't resist.

I never thought of Michael Moore as an instigator of hate. I'm a lefty and agree with most of what he says, but he even bugs me a bit. But then again, these days most men do (ever since I was pregnant! ) One thing I liked about the film was that he wasn't in it very much.

But I dont' understand why we have to HATE anybody. I hate George Bush's (and his administration's) policies but I can't honestly say I HATE any one person on this planet. Sorry to sound hippy dippy, but we really do need more love in this world. I think we get into the trap of hating people when we view things in an "us/them" way. "You're not American, so I hate you", "You're not Christian/Muslim/Jewish, so I hate you." The thing is: we're all human and we all have more in common with each other than we think. So peace & love everyone...please...at least for our kiddies' sake

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#135 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 10:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nursing Mother
Aussiemom, I don't know what link you are talking about, but it sounds like the ad is saying that 10 out of 10 terrorist agree that Bush should go to....in other words even the terrorist don't like Bush....but why? Because he has been tough on terrorism. Kerry might just pedal along and of course thats what they want right?

Just wondering, do you think they actually polled terrorists or did they just come up with it, because it's kinda cute? It's obviously something to make you think Bush is a follow-through type of guy, no matter what the world thinks or the truth is.

Tough on terrorism or tough sh!t? Because personally it seems more like t.s. all you Iraqis, you tried to kill my Daddy, so I'm gonna kill you. Women and children first...
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#136 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:00 PM
 
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Well, heck... I can't find a darn thing to support what I said before about Bush et al denying they ever said there was an Iraq/ alQuida connection. I suspect I read something at a right wing site I visit and it stuck in my head as fact rather than opinion. I apologize and retract.

Moss's Mommy... The reason WMD's matter is that Iraq was forbidden by the treaties and sanctions after Gulf War Classic to work on things like that and were supposed to have submitted to regular inspections to prove compliance.

Now... that in no way changes the fact that the Bush admin was so adamant about there being MWD's all over and their insistance that led many to believe it would be as simple a matter as finding a WalMart in Alabama.... cuz clearly they were just EVERYWHERE! And now... nuthin'.


Hey... I heard a rumor that this thread was about a movie... you know, so those of us who had seen it could discuss it. The movie, that is.
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#137 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:08 PM
 
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Ah, Nursing Mother, I don't hate anybody. I work really, really hard on that, & if I feel myself getting irrationally angry at someone for what they believe, I do try & back off & think it thru.

This is the link I meant. From Laura's post #84 on this thread. link
AAAAACCCKKKK. They've changed it!!!! It's now an ad for a Ronald Reagan Medal!! I guess it's just that seeing as there's a large number of people out there saying vote 'ABB', I think that statement "10 out of 10 terrorists agree- anybody but Bush" is pretty inflamatory & nasty. Unpleasant. Maybe, as merpk might say, I'm just too used to the funny accents down here & I need to kick back & drink beer & stop worrying about it... or something like that.

And, um.... what I meant by certain groups.... guess I was more thinking of the political left, greenies, left-wing gays, radicals, communists.... the racial/ethnic/religion aspect didn't enter my mind, TBH.

I don't always agree with MM or his tactics. However, I don't believe he started the hate in America. I know you've got a few years on me , but I can remember back to the late 80's as an adult, & I'm telling you love, in some parts of the US even then you could get spit on & physically attacked for the clothes you wore & the beliefs you held. Think freaky, feral hippy type. But at least I could change my clothes.....

But I'd better refrain from saying anything more here about Mike until I see the flick. By which time it will be yesterday's news.....

Quote:
.....or our country will fall from within. (I think it will anyways). We don't need a common enemy, we are our common enemy. We hate each other now. How sad
NM- I think you are correct about the US falling from within. I think it's possible, at the very least. I think that's why I come here, because it scares me to think that the people that I grew up with, my friends, my family could be in danger from that, & i'm looking for insight. Yes, I know it happens all around the world, but I am human, & I suppose my friends & fam take first place in my heart. As it should be for me, I believe. Not first place to the exclusion of others, but first nonetheless.

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#138 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:23 PM
 
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she is doing alright. Her cat got killed by my sisters dogs over the weekend, made the week complete KWIM. Thanks for asking.

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I am sorry to hear that.
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#139 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:30 PM
 
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I think the US in on the edge of a downfall.....I feel it in the air, the vibes are so strong.
Good... bring it on.
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#140 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:31 PM
 
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continuing the T ness for just a seccy.... sorry, Kama, it's all related in a zen kinda way... if you tilt your head sideways & squint....

I also agree about the civil war bit, NM. And I don't think you're in the twilight zone either. You back God for support, I'll back the biological instinct for survival route, & maybe, just maybe common sense will prevail & we won't have to go down that particular war path......

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#141 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:36 PM
 
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NM...you're coming with us, right???
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#142 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:37 PM
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I'm glad we own guns! At least I'll be prepared if there is a civil war. Seriously, do you think it will ever get that bad. As irritated as I feel with the left, I would never harm anyone over politics.
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#143 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:43 PM
 
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Actually, War is so last century, the only ones that will be having war is the conservative Republicans.... and they'll win
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#144 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:47 PM
 
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Laura, I am seriously worried that we (Americans??) could well take that track. And while you may not be prepared to kill anyone over their political beliefs, others who feel similarly to you are...... IMO.

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#145 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just got back from hearing MM at the town meeting. I have to say that my impression is not that his aim is to inspire hate but to inspire action. He is amazingly effective. Its no secret that the democratic party's (and Americas in general really) largest hurdle is getting people involved and voting. He's a man with a mission it happens to be mine too: getting GW out of the white house is top o' the very long list. After seeing this powerful movie and the amazing showing (#1 box office draw for the weekend WOO HOO!!!) I'm so glad he's on my side.
During the meeting MM refered to an article in the NY Daily Post where a conservative Republican discussed his reaction to the film. He was very impacted and the part that really struck me was when he said that there was just too much there (in the film) to ignore. It made me think of the discussions here .
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#146 of 353 Old 06-28-2004, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would never ever propose war and certainly not a war hastily entered into and poorly thought out such as this. One scene in the movie that really affected me was that of an older iraqi woman whose family home had just been bombed. She was overwhelmed with emotion and anger much as I felt on 9/11. The desperation and hate in this grandmotherly woman hit me hard this is what we are inspiring and this in part is what inspired 9/11 in the 1st place. I do not feel anything but increased fear of terrorism in the US as a result of our actions in Iraq.
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#147 of 353 Old 06-29-2004, 12:54 AM
 
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NursingMother, I'm sorry, but this whole civil war business sounds like a lot of hooey to me. . It's crazy talk. There aren't people in the streets screaming at each other on a very regular basis, are there? I haven't seen too many folks barring other folks from public places. Where are the riots? Where's all the unrest? Nobody's getting themselves killed over this, except those heading off to the war way on somebody else's soil. People may be tense, but we're nowhere near a revolution.

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#148 of 353 Old 06-29-2004, 02:13 AM
 
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I found an independant theater in Harrisburg PA playing it, and stood in line with folks who had driven over an hour to see it. I guess it is only playing in a few places in PA. Amazing. Hmmmmmm.... I bet those other theaters really have no desire to profit off of this movie at all...... right? Or are they scared of something?

I have enjoyed Michael Moore's work, first checking out his documentry film series from the library a few years ago. I believe he has been very carefull with this one, knowing it is not worth screwing around on too much, with his own personal flavor of course.

I cried too, And when it was over I hauled ass out of the theater like so many others.... The woman I was talked to and shared popcorn with and I did not say goodbye, comment on the movie, or even politley smile.... we both practically ran....

It was like a dream... little pieces spat out through word of mouth, television, radio, newspaper... taken in little by little, over the years.... and then this movie reminded me of all of the things I thought I knew, but now realize I was hoping wasnt really true....REAL...TOO REAL. and there was not anything for me to say when it was over. I just had to get back to my truck as fast as I could.

I was thankfull that I told my husband so many years before that I would not marry him if he chose to join the military (no offense to military and their wives who desire to really protect our country), that I would not be a military wife, no way.

It reminded me of watching the Waco,Texas documentary.... total amazment and disbelief and pain..... How was I led to believe that I lived in a totally different kind of country? How do I still hold on to that fantasy?
I suppose as long as my grocery store still sells fresh donuts and at least 3 dozen varieties of soda and some produce and hot dogs and gas is affordable and firework displays are still on for the fourth of july what the hell.....

Yet when I got to my truck, there on the radio, this dream would not go away... there it was, talk of Iraq, and all of the new government promises, and how well the oil company is running, and how oil prices are down, thats so great....... It was surreal to say the least. I had almost forgotton that it was real, again, I thought I had just imagined it was real, was scared by a movie, thats all....

childish me
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#149 of 353 Old 06-29-2004, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex80
I am scared one day that dh may go to war, I worry about the future of peace in the world, but really, what would all ya'll propose one to do after three buildings full of innocent people are attacked for no reason? I feel sorry for all the mothers of the people in the world trade center and the pentagon and the pregnant wives that were left behind and the spouses and children that were heartbroken as well.

Nothing in this world is cut and dry, black or white. I realize that I am in a minority here at Mothering, being a republican-though not a crazed right wing "nazi" as many put it, but really, what should have been done? I am really wanting people's opinions here on what they would have done after 9-11.
On 9-12-01 I wrote in my journal that several prudent steps would be wiser than what was being considered or done at the time:

1. Deal with the emergency and protect against other credible imminent threats.

2. Figure out who did it and why. Pursue who did it through the World Criminal Court (which means signing onto it not avoiding it) and offering use of special forces to execute arrest warrants on the suspects.

Re: the why; figure out which policies or practices were adding fuel to their engines and stop/change them so as to starve the bastards from having recruits and/or energy to fuel their mission(s). We behave like arrogant adolescents to much of the world with lethal consequences. It'd probably be a wise thing to change our attitude and grow up a little, damned fast.

3. Find out why we didn't know and make the necessary firings, changes, and protocol reforms to ensure we aren't caught with our pants down. (I wrote a few months later that if that meant finding out the President himself knew and didn't act, fire the a**hole immediately and pursue indictments as to his criminal culpability). If a system is partly to blame, re-engineer it.

4. Engage in healing and reconciliation actions immediately to allow the proper healthy expressions of anger and vengeance without anyone else getting harmed by it. Grieve fully before taking any agressive actions, ask for help from allies to take care of the warrior stuff until our grief was at the right stage for us to assume those duties.

These are some of the minimum things I expected of the adults running the country. That's what I expected America to do. Unfortunately few if any of these grown-up, responsible, and humane acts occurred. Now we're in Afghanistan and Iraq and mired down in utter stupidity with lethal consequences. Now we're screaming at each other over our sense of perverse divine patriotism and who's got the most muscles. The way this nation responded to that crime against humanity was/is foolish nonsense. I expect more. It's time to grow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex80
I haven't seen the movie, but was interested by this thread. I have heard that portions of the footage used was used out of context. Is this true?
Go see the film, read the more than dozens of books on various elements of the cited issues/events, read the testimonies of victims families, read the 9-11 commission transcripts, read the accounts as documented by the major corpo-media, the indy-media and the progressive media, and make up your own mind. By now it's a daunting task to be sure. It was daunting over the course of the past few years as things developed, being a SAHD and back-to-college student, but it was at least a little easier than playin' catch-up now. Still you owe it to yourself to be able to say from your own well-read, knowledgeable brain whether portions of footage MM used were used "out of context." (and if they were, why and for what purpose)
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#150 of 353 Old 06-29-2004, 03:37 AM
 
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this kind of talk makes people panic and panicked people do desperate things like start wars.

sounds like FoxNews to me.

Check out New Moon on my Astrology Site

http://tracyastrosalon.blogspot.com/

 

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