Library Book Circles - keep the Really Bad Books out of circulation - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-26-2005, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
It's illegal because it's immoral.
Well, close, but not exactly. It's actually illegal because its production harms children. This is why actual child pornography (pornography made using children) is illegal while virtual child pornography (pornography made using legal participants then digitally manipulated to look like children) is not.

This isn't to say that there are not moral judgments made in the development of laws. It's just that they don't often come into play where children are involved (because children are still largely viewed as property and one can treat one's property as one likes).

That said, I think the whole "censorship" argument here is pretty off. I don't think this is censorship at all. I do think it's misguided and counter-productive, but not censorship... at least, not in the sense that we were meant to be protected from it by the framers of the First Amendment.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EFmom
I'm a librarian and this attitude sickens me. And I think putting cards or stickers in the books is silly at best and vandalism at worst.
I agree about stickers (being vandalism), but why do you have an issue with cards placed in books? I think it's a great way of introducing a person to another view. I actually love finding things like that when I open books - it's just one more resource for me to seek out to get the bigger picture.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:39 PM
 
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That said, I think the whole "censorship" argument here is pretty off. I don't think this is censorship at all.
How is it not censorship to take a book out of circulation because you(general you) don't agree with the books message? I don't think its very far off at all.
I just went to my library's website. Only 6 branches own a copy of babywise and 12 own a copy of the baby book by Dr. Sears. I think its great that there are twice as many dr. sears books in circulation but I'd feel sad if it was because 6 baby wise books were destroyed.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:41 PM
 
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.......... sweetfeet, where did you come from, and how have i never noticed your posts before?? i am agreeing with everything you have posted...........
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
.......... sweetfeet, where did you come from, and how have i never noticed your posts before?? i am agreeing with everything you have posted...........
I've been here forever.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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Because I'm soooo bored and my dh and I have discussed this to the hills and back...Regarding the title of this thread..
Why not do as you claim and start a "real" library book circle with an AP book club? Read different ap, breastfeeding, birthing, and gentle discipline books and hold a lil get together and discuss them with your friends? Put up notices at the library or heck get your library involved. It seems that would be more educational and have a greater outreach than simply destroying books.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Well, close, but not exactly. It's actually illegal because its production harms children. This is why actual child pornography (pornography made using children) is illegal while virtual child pornography (pornography made using legal participants then digitally manipulated to look like children) is not.
Once again, Dragonfly has taken the great point I wanted to make and said it first! :LOL I'm getting a little tired of you doing that, Dragonfly.

The dissemination of information should never be illegal. There is a difference between talking about something and actually doing it.
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Old 02-26-2005, 06:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetfeet
How is it not censorship to take a book out of circulation because you(general you) don't agree with the books message? I don't think its very far off at all.
It's an individual exercise of freedom. I'd liken it more to activism. It's not an abuse of power, there's not a decision being made for anyone else as to what they can and cannot read (because the book is widely available elsewhere and there is no captive audience).

I think, in general, the word "censorship" is way overused here.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:02 PM
 
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It's not an abuse of power, there's not a decision being made for anyone else as to what they can and cannot read (because the book is widely available elsewhere and there is no captive audience).
A decision is being made. The book is no longer available for free use. If it is so widely available then why not try alternative means of awareness? Obviously destroying a copy won't make a huge difference if it is so easily obtainable.
ETA when I think of activism I think of getting my point across without harming property or people.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetfeet
A decision is being made. The book is no longer available for free use. If it is so widely available then why not try alternative means of awareness? Obviously destroying a copy won't make a huge difference if it is so easily obtainable.
ETA when I think of activism I think of getting my point across without harming property or people.
Well, yeah, there's a decision being made. That's hardly a qualifier for censorship on its own, though. It matters who is making the decision and who is being affected by the decision (and how they are being affected).

There's no harm to people or property when books are systematically checked out. Destroying or otherwise vandalizing books that don't belong to you? As I said, I don't agree with it, and the OP's method really isn't effective given the way that libraries make their decisions about book-buying. Alternative means of activism would undoubtedly be more effective. I still wouldn't call it censorship, though.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:09 PM
 
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I agree that it's not exactly censorship, since it's not a governing body that's doing it but individuals acting privately. But, I also agree with sweetfeet that it's not a productive form of activism, either. I'd rather see people advocate by working to make their views more widespread and persuasive, not by trying to silence the opposition.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:09 PM
 
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I can't think of a better term. I agree censorship may be strong. I'm just going off of the words used in the thread. I think checking them out is fine. Thats what they are there for. I don't see that as censoring or abusing the system. I do think destroying property that isn't yours as 1 poster claims to do is a hideous way to get a point across.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:12 PM
 
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I don't know, I *do* see it as abusing the system - they're deliberately keeping books checked out with no intention of reading them, specifically so others can't read them either. That is clearly not what the library is there for, no?
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:13 PM
 
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I think we're all pretty much on the same page.

It's an interesting discussion, though. Can we keep going anyway? :LOL
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
I don't know, I *do* see it as abusing the system - they're deliberately keeping books checked out with no intention of reading them, specifically so others can't read them either. That is clearly not what the library is there for, no?
I don't know. I think the library is there for free use - and that's part of free use. Our library has a system in place to keep this from happening. You can place a hold on a book and get in line for it. Then, it's not able to be renewed and not available to anyone but the person who is next in line.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
I don't know, I *do* see it as abusing the system - they're deliberately keeping books checked out with no intention of reading them, specifically so others can't read them either. That is clearly not what the library is there for, no?
The library will buy more. I HATE the Ezzo books with a deep burning passion but its freedom of choice to me. I'm glad that I have the choice on how to raise my child and so should they however they choose to do it is up to the parent. Her group of friends can't be the only ones reserving the book. Here if there is a reserve on the item by someone else I can't renew.
I've read bits and pieces of Babywise. How else can I get my point across if I don't know what I'm talking about. IMO the OP is playing a petty game of keep away. I think your (OP) time and efforts would be much better served by volunteering somewhere where you'd work with new mothers or by having intelligent discussions about parenting choices.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:53 PM
 
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True, but if the OP and 5 of her friends are on the waiting list before the legitimate patron, that person might say "fug it" and just go buy it on Amazon, which is actually worse because then Ezzo is getting paid for it. That doesn't even cover the people who just come in to do a quick shelf check, don't see it and go somewhere else without even trying to get on the list.

IMO, if you are checking out books specifically to prevent other people from doing so, that is in violation of the library's mission, at least the spirit of it. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Old 02-26-2005, 07:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetfeet
I think your (OP) time and efforts would be much better served by volunteering somewhere where you'd work with new mothers or by having intelligent discussions about parenting choices.
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:06 PM
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sweetfeet
The library will buy more. I HATE the Ezzo books with a deep burning passion but its freedom of choice to me.
It's not freedom of choice for the children though.
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Old 02-26-2005, 10:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
I'm not supporting banning books with beliefs that are right, but beliefs that are wrong.

Is this sarcasm?
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Old 02-26-2005, 10:10 PM
 
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"I'm not supporting banning books with beliefs that are right, but beliefs that are wrong."
Who gets to decide which beliefs are right? What I see as right, you may see as wrong, and vice versa.



"No we don't. Because we are saying the right things. "
Again, right according to whom??



"Religious text should have a disclaimer "the characters and situations portraied are fictional etc"."
Are they?



"They should all be descridited as being the word of God."
Huh?

Monica , DH :cop , DD (8) , DS1 (5) , DS2 (2/09) , and the pup
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Old 02-26-2005, 10:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaisyRose
That's how I feel about Ezzo, too. I don't just keep Ezzo books out of circulation, I destroy them. Rip them to shreds and drop the remnants in the recycling bins, usually located very conveniently right beside the photocopiers.

DRAGONFLY:

How is this NOT censorship???????????????????


BTY: As defined in the dictionary:

Censorship: Legal or social practices aimed at barring the dissemination of disaproved ideas. (Webster's Dictionary).
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Old 02-26-2005, 10:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
But I'm sure the library censors stuff it doesn't consider morally right. I doubt you will find literature advocating racism, violence towards women or pedophilia in libraries. They're probably illegal as well, and for a good reason. If you found a book of those in your library you wouldn't put a note on them, you would complain!
The "library" is a building. It does not censor anything. People who work in libray systems take ACCESS TO INFORMATION very seriously. There are in fact books that promote racism, violence towards women, and pedophilia. Information is not dangerous. Limiting people's access to information is.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonor
Although I would take ALL the parenting books of libraries and leave parents to actually have to relate with their children face to face like they do with other humans!
I thank the gods that you weren't in charge in 1996 when I found out I was going to have twins. It was terribly important and helpful to me to read many books on birthing, breastfeeding, and raising twins. And it never impeded my relating to them. :



One other misconception I wanted to clear up regards inserting material into books. That material is not going to last long at all. For this very reason. It IS offensive to check out a book on homosexuality and have a "Church of the Holy Christ" card fall out and say "It is not too late to repent!" Or what have you. A library book is not a place for you to make a political or value judgement.


Very interesting thread!
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Old 02-26-2005, 11:02 PM
 
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I agree that doing what the OP stated is censorship, unfair, and just not right. It is also counter productive as they are just making those books seem more popular than what they actually are. The library is going, "whoh, those books are really the most popular, let's get more like that." While the books that they approve of are not getting checked out as much and seem less popular. I don't agree that note cards are healthy either. There are many other better ways to get your point across.

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Old 02-27-2005, 01:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Leonor
I'm tired of seeing people defending the most horrible things for the sake of free speech. I remember a guy publishing a drawing made by this other guy who liked to portrait children with axes slicing their heads open and worse things believe me, because the poor artist had been detained by the police for interrogation for one night or something. Oh the fascist police undermining the freedom of speech of the nice artist, we have to defend him at all costs! :
You know what, I wouldn't like looking at drawings of children with axes in their heads either. That's why I don't look at them! But, I have NO right to prevent someone from drawing it in the first place and someone else looking at it.
THAT is what free speech is. The right to say, draw, write something that other people hate. No one has the right to not be offended.

ETA: Oh and BTW, child pornography is illegal because it hurts children, not because it is offensive or immoral.

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Old 02-27-2005, 02:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by librarymom
It IS offensive to check out a book on homosexuality and have a "Church of the Holy Christ" card fall out and say "It is not too late to repent!" Or what have you. A library book is not a place for you to make a political or value judgement.
Interesting. I see how that would be offensive, definitely, but still - information is information is information, right? Is it because the person opening the book didn't make the choice to view the material on the card, kind of got ambushed by it? I can see that, but still - it's just information. Especially if the card is non-judgemental, i.e. not "Repent, sinner" but simply "www.reformedgays.org", for instance - then the person has to seek out the information for themselves, you're just providing them with the place to find it if they want to.

BTW, I hope I don't need to say that I am just using this as an example, I am not trying to support anti-gay propaganda. But just in case.
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Old 02-27-2005, 02:16 AM
 
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Wow.

To paraphrase a previous poster, libraries are sacred. People who interfere with public libraries scare me.

Destroying your own property is one thing, but please keep your hands off the books in public libraries.



P.S. - Thank god I live in a country that allows artists to draw pictures of axes in children's heads. Freedom of expression is not always pretty and it is not always pleasant. It is always worth fighting for.
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Old 02-27-2005, 06:58 AM
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Old 02-27-2005, 07:00 AM
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