Library Book Circles - keep the Really Bad Books out of circulation - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:00 AM
 
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"there are many ways to point people in the right direction without being offensive or insulting"

so..... there are cards I could place in AP books from the American Pediatric Association or the CDC (or even from Dr. Sears himself!) saying something pro-vax. Would you find that offensive or insulting? Just curious!
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#122 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:07 AM
 
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would the cards even be an issue if all material were being made freely available? shouldn't we ~ in a free society, here in AMERICA ~ be allowed access to all of the information and have the FREEDOM to make up our minds ourselves?
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#123 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:36 AM
 
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Wow. It's been awhile since a thread here at MDC honestly made me go but this one has done it. Ripping up library books? Telling US citizens they are lazy for not living somewhere that allows them to walk instead of driving cars? Stunning. Truly stunning.

And pathetic.

Fortunately, it seems like the majority of posters in this thread seem to have a decent grasp on reality.

But like Ard, I'm going to and :
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#124 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kincaid
so..... there are cards I could place in AP books from the American Pediatric Association or the CDC (or even from Dr. Sears himself!) saying something pro-vax. Would you find that offensive or insulting? Just curious!
I don't know, it would depend on what it said, not the source, yk? If it said "You are risking all our children's lives through your negligence and irresponibility in not vaxing" then yeah, I'd be offended - that's a little extreme, but you get the gist. If it was a "Want to learn more? Here are some resources" kind of thing then no, I would not.

And anyway, like I and PP have said before, I have no right to not be offended. Of course I think we should try *not* to offend people because A) it's the nice thing to do and B) you want to reach people, not alienate them. But if I get offended by a flier that has not violated any obscenity laws or anything - who cares? So I saw something I don't agree with and it pissed me off, big deal. If I cared about stuff like that, I wouldn't be here on this thread in the first place.

What do you all think about fliers on cars? Public protests? Signs in people's yards? I'm wondering what you think we need to be protected from, how far we need to go.
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#125 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
would the cards even be an issue if all material were being made freely available? shouldn't we ~ in a free society, here in AMERICA ~ be allowed access to all of the information and have the FREEDOM to make up our minds ourselves?
Yes, absolutely. But I still think the cards could be valuable in just telling people the information is out there to be had, and where it is. I'm sure I don't need to point out how a lot of people tend not to look very hard for the facts necessary to make up their own minds.
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#126 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
What do you all think about fliers on cars? Public protests? Signs in people's yards?
signs on cars are IMO perfectly ok as long as they aren't obscene...

public protests are great. yk, we have this whole "freedom of assembly" thing that's one of the things i love about this country..

and do you mean, putting signs in one's own yard, or putting signs in other people's yards? because i see that as the difference between, say, ripping up a library book and ripping up a book you've bought yourself.... yk?
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#127 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
Yes, absolutely. But I still think the cards could be valuable in just telling people the information is out there to be had, and where it is. I'm sure I don't need to point out how a lot of people tend not to look very hard for the facts necessary to make up their own minds.
i agree.

personal experience: i checked out Red in Tooth and Claw, and found two cards in it: one providing a list of references to other books like it (personal accounts of things that happened in communist China) and the other was an explanation of the author's background. things like that really helped ~ they were well-written and easily understandable ~ not inflammatory at all, but purely educational. i think if people want to add cards like that to books, they should go for it... and/or leave cards / fliers around the library for people to take with them (cleared with the librarians first, of course!). that way, they get their POV out there for others and provide a source of information that people might otherwise not have.
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#128 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:06 AM
 
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I meant a sign in your own yard.

I bring these things up because IMO they are comparable to opening a library book and finding a card with an opposing viewpoint inside. I didn't *ask* to see someone's sign in their yard advocating same sex marriage, I was just driving to the store. I wanted to go to City Hall to renew my license, and I heard a KKK rally. I didn't agree to hear that. I park my car to go to the Children's Museum, I come out and there's an evangelical flier on my windshield telling me if I don't accept Jesus as my personal savior I'm going to Hell, hallelujah. These are all just examples, but to get upset because someone expressed an idea you didn't specifically and explicitly agree to listen to, seems to contradict the principle of freedom of speech.
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#129 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:21 AM
 
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Carseat is the torture device babies have to put up with because people in the developed world forgot how to walk around.
Tell that to the parents of the baby I helped to care for whose carseat floated to the top as his fathers car crumpled into a ball under a truck. Had it not been for that "torture device", he would no doubt have been dead. As it was the firefighters were shocked and amazed (in a positive way) that they had to rescue the father. One look at that car and they figured it was a body retrieval.

I guess I can just walk the 7 miles to the grocery store? Walk the 50 mile round trip to the city and back when we need things that we can only find there? Get real.

I am an adult, and I think it is incredibly patronizing that you Leonor think that it's up to you or anyone to decide for me what I should or should not be able to read. I think it is also the essence of immorality.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#130 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
...I didn't *ask* to see someone's sign in their yard advocating same sex marriage, I was just driving to the store. I wanted to go to City Hall to renew my license, and I heard a KKK rally. I didn't agree to hear that. I park my car to go to the Children's Museum, I come out and there's an evangelical flier on my windshield telling me if I don't accept Jesus as my personal savior I'm going to Hell, hallelujah. These are all just examples, but to get upset because someone expressed an idea you didn't specifically and explicitly agree to listen to, seems to contradict the principle of freedom of speech.
... i think as long as all sides are free to express their opinions, there's no problem, yk? (that's basically what you're saying though, right?)

i have the freedom to go to the library and check out books by BOTH ezzo AND dr. sears, and compare them, and then i have the freedom to say to myself, "gosh, ezzo seems like a bad idea, and dr. sears seems to be spot-on with what my instincts are telling me," and as long as i have the freedom to make up my own mind by having ALL sides available to me... well that really is freedom.

but if i go to the library and find only ezzo, or only pearl, or *ahem* only dr. sears, that's not an informed decision. you can't win an argument by simply taking away all access to the opposing side's information.
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#131 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:35 AM
 
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wow... this is a creepy thread
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#132 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 01:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
What do you all think about fliers on cars? Public protests? Signs in people's yards? I'm wondering what you think we need to be protected from, how far we need to go.
Don't protect me from any of it, thanks. As long as you don't break my wipers with your fliers, or put a sign on my yard, I'm ok with it. I can crumple it up/walk away/ignore it.


I don't think we give people enough credit for making up their minds. Just because I've made a certain informed choice (i.e. Sears vs. Ezzo) doesn't mean that those who have made the opposite choice have done so in an uninformed way. Let all the materials be there for an informed choice.

OP, if I worked for the lirary, I would be really upset that I was always picking up mothering mags from the kids section. Or, like someone else said, if I went there to find a mothering and couldn't find it where it belonged, I'd be upset about that too. Just because you don't like a certain genre of books does not make it ok for you to rearrange the library.

Monica , DH :cop , DD (8) , DS1 (5) , DS2 (2/09) , and the pup
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#133 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
i have the freedom to go to the library and check out books by BOTH ezzo AND dr. sears, and compare them, and then i have the freedom to say to myself, "gosh, ezzo seems like a bad idea, and dr. sears seems to be spot-on with what my instincts are telling me,"
I sure am glad I had the freedom to do that. But, unfortunately I had to buy most of the books I read that leaned toward AP practices as my local library never seemed to have any in stock.....maybe someone kept checking them out so others couldn't be influenced by the ways of AP? :

If so, I wonder how many potentially AP'ed babies were denied that opportunity because someone took it upon themselves to decide what belonged in the library and what didn't :
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#134 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:10 AM
 
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What if someone decides MotheringDotCommune just doesn't belong on the internet and tries to find a way to make that inaccessible????

Censorship is WRONG!

And now I am done with this thread because I know no matter what we write the OP will never see any view on this but her own.
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#135 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Itlbokay
I sure am glad I had the freedom to do that. But, unfortunately I had to buy most of the books I read that leaned toward AP practices as my local library never seemed to have any in stock.....maybe someone kept checking them out so others couldn't be influenced by the ways of AP? :

If so, I wonder how many potentially AP'ed babies were denied that opportunity because someone took it upon themselves to decide what belonged in the library and what didn't :

yeah, i can't help thinking, i wonder if the OP (and those here that have agreed with her ) ever considered that maybe there are people in the world who would take this approach with something that WE think is good or morally "right."

what if the people who agree w/ the ezzo books decided to donate more of those books to her library (because, after all, they seem to always be checked out) and then continue to keep the AP books and Motherings off the shelves?


and the point about "rearranging the library" is a good one. it makes me mad when i go to the library and can't find something, only to find out that it was left on a table or in the wrong section.

people: library organization is there for a reason! so people can find what they are looking for.

if you can't understand that, maybe you shouldn't be using a library at all (although i must admit that from the other posts, because of the nature of disrespect you have shown library materials in the past, you definitely shouldn't be using a library)...
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#136 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 10:43 AM
 
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Curious about something....
Huge (and justified, imo) outcry here about keeping library books out of circulation. But what about the more common practice of "hiding" non-ap lit in bookstores? I have heard of this practice here many, many times.....covering Parents magazine with Mothering Magazine.....putting Sears on top of Ezzo.....and I've never seen anyone get upset about that.
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#137 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 11:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Curious about something....
Huge (and justified, imo) outcry here about keeping library books out of circulation. But what about the more common practice of "hiding" non-ap lit in bookstores? I have heard of this practice here many, many times.....covering Parents magazine with Mothering Magazine.....putting Sears on top of Ezzo.....and I've never seen anyone get upset about that.
I find that to be deplorable as well. I am an ADULT and I have the ability, knowledge, wherewithall, whatever to choose my own books, thank you (general you) very much! As I mentioned before, if I can't find the book or magazine I'm looking for because someone thought it would be cute or impressive to force their ideas on me by moving things around, I would simply go somewhere else! I think it's very sad that people really, honestly believe that these tactics keep people from reading what they don't want them to!!

BTW, it drives me absolutely batty when I see books and magazines out of order - I actually fix them when I see it! So if you're at any of my local bookstores, be assured that your moving things around won't last long anyway!
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#138 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
Curious about something....
Huge (and justified, imo) outcry here about keeping library books out of circulation. But what about the more common practice of "hiding" non-ap lit in bookstores? I have heard of this practice here many, many times.....covering Parents magazine with Mothering Magazine.....putting Sears on top of Ezzo.....and I've never seen anyone get upset about that.
Honestly, I remember people getting upset about that too. Do a search of the old threads and see if I am right. I think you are seeing more emotion because actually destroying a book is much worse than just putting another book on top of it.

My one thing I have done is to print up cards that say:

Read the information at www.ezzo.info BEFORE trying anything in this book. Did you know the AAP, Dr. Dobson, and many other leaders in the medical and spiritual community have condemned the practices recommended in this book?

and stick them in the book. If they get removed then hopefully at least one person has read them first. Information is power. Frankly I think a good parent who read it would reject it anyway but it never helps to hear others' objections. I just had a woman I was helping get a copy. I tried to be as calm as I could but I told her why I didn't like it. She read it and said she just couldn't do what it suggested. So score one for the gentle team!
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#139 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 11:49 AM
 
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Yeah, it could easily be that I just never read the outrage about the bookstore practice. It is just that I've read about this practice *many* times (here and otherwise), and never noticed anyone objecting.

FTR, I was intending to compare the bookstore practice to checking out library books (for the purpose of keeping them off the shelves)---not destroying library books (which is a whole different hot potato, imo).

And, for more of my opinion, lol, in the sea of parenting lit, wouldn't it be great if we could have faith that the AP lit would speak for itself? Would shine brightest because of its common sense and gentleness and effectiveness? And if it doesn't, maybe there is work to do in that area?
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#140 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkaha
I don't think we give people enough credit for making up their minds. Just because I've made a certain informed choice (i.e. Sears vs. Ezzo) doesn't mean that those who have made the opposite choice have done so in an uninformed way. Let all the materials be there for an informed choice.

For the most part, I mostly read "mainstream" books while pregnant the first time and it really didn't phase me that much. I still had a heart and a brain that told me I shouldn't let my baby cry, that I should hold him, and I should feed my baby when he is hungry (not just when I think it is time--stupid!). Just because people read some books that express varied opinions doesn't mean that they can't think for themselves.

When you read stuff like that ("mainstream" baby books) it makes you wonder "what else is out there" and actually searching for different information is much more meaningful than having it be pushed on you or singled out as your only choice.

Mom to two boys, ages 8 and 11, and one blessing due May 8th.

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#141 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 12:23 PM
 
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For the most part, I mostly read "mainstream" books while pregnant the first time and it really didn't phase me that much. I still had a heart and a brain that told me I shouldn't let my baby cry, that I should hold him, and I should feed my baby when he is hungry (not just when I think it is time--stupid!). Just because people read some books that express varied opinions doesn't mean that they can't think for themselves.
Great point! I was even given a copy of (gasp) Babywise by my SIL...I had no idea how insidious it is, but even as someone who had yet to have a child, it didn't feel right to me, the rules seemed arbitrary. I'm glad I read it, though, because I think in order to make the best case AGAINST Ezzo now when I talk to other parents, I need to come from a position of knowledge. It just doesn't make the point as well if you have to preface your argument with "Well, I've never actually read the book, BUT it's really bad!!", KWIM?

Bottom line, it grinds me when someone else decides they'll do my thinking FOR me instead of letting me read the info. and come to my own conclusions. There's an arrogance and patronizing bent to that sort of thinking that doesn't set well with me....

Oh, one more thing...re the carseats. What about all of those selfish, awful farmers that grow our food?? Are they supposed to abandon their crops and move to cities so that they don't have to use cars/carseats? I'm scratching my head over how a society is supposed to function with everyone clustered together in metropolitan areas. It gets pretty chilly in most parts of the country, and I'm trying to imagine the farmers bundling up, walking the 50 or so miles into towns or the like to get supplies. I imagine the seed would get mighty heavy when they're carrying it back on their shoulders.

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

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#142 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
And anyway, like I and PP have said before, I have no right to not be offended. Of course I think we should try *not* to offend people because A) it's the nice thing to do and B) you want to reach people, not alienate them. But if I get offended by a flier that has not violated any obscenity laws or anything - who cares? So I saw something I don't agree with and it pissed me off, big deal. If I cared about stuff like that, I wouldn't be here on this thread in the first place.

What do you all think about fliers on cars? Public protests? Signs in people's yards? I'm wondering what you think we need to be protected from, how far we need to go.

I believe there is an inherent difference between signs in people's yards and a library book. Putting a sign in my yard that says "Fear More Years" reflects my feelings on my property. If it offends you-you can complain and the township will look at it and we'll go to court and the court will say it's acceptable because of my rights to free speech, as long as my sign meets township requirements. (Which it did. )


However, the library is not YOUR private property. It is community property, sustained by EVERYONE'S tax dollars. I just believe, in my heart of hearts, that a person has a right to look at and read materials without your presupposing that he/she is not as informed or learned as you. If you are saying "I read Ezzo, and it's a horrible option. Please look at something else", do you not see the ridiculousness of that? It strikes me as patronizing. And that may be my own chafing at being told what to think, read, believe, but in this case, I know I'm right, at least in my library system.


I would be interested in you asking your librarians how they feel about and handle people putting materials in books. They'd probably be thrilled to have someone take an interest in library policy!
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#143 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Way far from the OP, but I wonder about this- our library has little slips of paper in the back of books so people can write their opinions/review of the book. Additionally, our card catalog online has spots for reader reviews. How does this fit in with what you wrote above? Does it violate some sort of public library code, or is this an area that is up for interpretation?

Our online catalog has the same option. Are the reviews on slips of paper signed? This interests me because my library system puts patron confidentiality at the top of the priority heap. I personally would object to this, because unless the reviewer is identified, what's the point? There are tons of places online and in print that provide reviews. Unless I know annettemarie, and I know that we have the same taste in books, what good is it if it says "annettemarie loves the humor and small town feel of this book", or some such review?

But I am willing to concede right now that I am a review snob.


To answer your question, it seems to me that if previous readers of a book are identified, it does violate patron confidentiality. If your library system does not promise that, I guess it doesn't violate anything. State of Michigan privacy laws state that your library record is confidential, so in my state, it might violate that. But I assume that leaving an opinion or review is voluntary, so it would seem you are giving up your right to privacy by leaving an opinion.
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#144 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:24 PM
 
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To Leonor, another question. You do differentiate between a picture of children with axes through their heads, and actual children with actual axes through their actual heads, yes?


A story about a pedophile is not a pedophile.

A movie about a rapist is not a rapist.


That is why these things you find "immoral" are in your library. And there is very little censorship in the library. I'm sure in some small libraries there is probably some. Once you have a library card from my library, you (anyone) have full access to all library material. This applies to everyone, child or adult. If a 5 year old brings me "Bride of Chucky", I check that item out to that patron. It is not MY place to tell the child no. It is a family decision, and if you allow your 5 yo to watch "Bride of Chucky", I don't get to say you're wrong. IT'S NOT MY DECISION.


*We make this very clear to parents, by the way.*
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#145 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:35 PM
 
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Curious:

What if my 9 year old goes with his class to the library (so I am not there to check his choices) and he checks out Lolita or other equally adult adult fiction. Would he be allowed to check that out?

(Fortunately for me, my kid's teacher would play the role of the parent and let him check out age inappropriate material.)

In this situation, I would hope the librarian would not let him check that out or an R rated movie, just like I hope the store would not sell him R rated movies or adult video games or Penthouse magazine.
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#146 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fianna
Wow. It's been awhile since a thread here at MDC honestly made me go but this one has done it. Ripping up library books? Telling US citizens they are lazy for not living somewhere that allows them to walk instead of driving cars? Stunning. Truly stunning.

And pathetic.

Fortunately, it seems like the majority of posters in this thread seem to have a decent grasp on reality.

But like Ard, I'm going to and :
Uh huh. I haven't been able to read this whole thread, because every time I start, I get SOOOO incredibly angry. I didn't realize that some people out there are morally superior to me so that they can decide what I'm capable of reading. I'd say more, but I'm starting to get really angry again. :Puke
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#147 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:44 PM
 
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What if your 9 year old wanted to check out, say, "War and Peace." Would that be ok? It's certainly for adults. Or what about a National Georgraphic with naked people in it?

Librarians can't be making parenting decisions for you.
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#148 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:49 PM
 
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Our library will only let a child check out "juvenile" material (on the child's card). If a parent is accompanying, and the child brings a movie that is not marked "juvenile", I have seen an adult sign something to allow the child to check it out.

Yes, we are a conservative town. But not really a small town. Pretty big library system.

When dd and I check out books, I usually grab her card (cause it is the easiest to access--kept in a different place from my card). But then I have to dig out my card to check out a book or video for me....cause they aren't "juvenile".
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#149 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonwyn
Curious:

What if my 9 year old goes with his class to the library (so I am not there to check his choices) and he checks out Lolita or other equally adult adult fiction. Would he be allowed to check that out?

(Fortunately for me, my kid's teacher would play the role of the parent and let him check out age inappropriate material.)

In this situation, I would hope the librarian would not let him check that out or an R rated movie, just like I hope the store would not sell him R rated movies or adult video games or Penthouse magazine.

Hi Rhon.

In this situation, if your child had his/her own card with him/her, I would check out any item to him/her. Library staff assumes that you have spoken with your child about the privilege of having a card and the material that YOUR FAMILY deems appropriate. Again, this would be clear to you when you allowed your child to get a card.

Many teachers do not allow checking out of materials at class visits for this reason. The teacher does not need or want the responsibility to determine that for anyone else's child.

Do you see that if you were a staunchly religious family, and your 12 year old wanted to read about Wicca; or you were homophobic and your 14 year old wanted to read "How do I know I'm gay" (I made that up), it is not MY place to tell your child it's appropriate?


I cannot tell you how big a deal this is in my library system. It is asked in interviews! They tell you that library policy is not to deny anything to anybody. Nor are we allowed to comment AT ALL on any item anyone checks out. If you say to me. "have you read this?" I can talk about the item. But under NO circumstance can I open dialogue with you. Again with the confidentiality.



**I hope it's clear I am only speaking to my library system. I'm sure there is a huge variety in policy out there. I do believe that free access to information (ALL information) is paramount in all public libraries.**
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#150 of 403 Old 02-28-2005, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama
Our library will only let a child check out "juvenile" material (on the child's card). If a parent is accompanying, and the child brings a movie that is not marked "juvenile", I have seen an adult sign something to allow the child to check it out.

Yes, we are a conservative town. But not really a small town. Pretty big library system.

When dd and I check out books, I usually grab her card (cause it is the easiest to access--kept in a different place from my card). But then I have to dig out my card to check out a book or video for me....cause they aren't "juvenile".

I am sure that libraries reflect community standards. I happen to live in the seat of government in Michigan, and we have a huge library system. My library director would NEVER allow this sort of differentiation. And she has a library board that feels the same about the purpose and function of libraries.
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