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Books, Music, and Media > Mindful Parenting Book Club Part III
Mamaste's Avatar Mamaste 10:13 PM 01-11-2003
Hey guys, having a rough weekend here, too. DH's big book deadline is upon us, and there just aren't enough hours in the day. Thing is, all sorts of weird phone calls keep interrupting today, so while I continue to single-parent 24/7 so he can work, he's not working -- he's answering weird calls from work, long distance calls, etc.

I went and bought some cake mix earlier, and it's in the oven now. Maybe that will help boost my energy, patience and love and help me revitalize my capacity to be here in the moment without SNARLING about it!

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 01:37 AM 01-12-2003
Hi, Mamas! Sounds like everyone is really busy!! Here's a happy dance and other happy emoticons to hopefully get you smiling and energized for the moment.

I'm going to post my thoughts on the next chapter in a few minutes. Tomorrow it is supposed to be about 20 degrees warmer than today and then get very cold again on Monday so I want to get some of this posting done tonight so I can enjoy the warm day.
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 02:10 AM 01-12-2003
Second Chapter of Part IV ~ “Live-In Zen Masters”

While re-reading “Live-In Zen Masters” again, some words just seemed to pop out at me. Out of curiosity I decided to underline those words and see how many times I came across them in the chapter. I didn’t count their occurrences but I know some of the words were used at least five or more times. Here are the words or phrases:
Attachment (to our expectations/opinions/judgments/reactions)
on it “being a certain way” (‘it’ being the outcome or moment)
Bring (bring attention to or bring awareness to)
True nature
Unfolding (ie: of the moment)

What struck you the most in this chapter? Did anything make you think say “hmmmnnnn?” or that popped out at you? A lot of things hit home for me and there are many things in this chapter that we have discussed before like “honoring their sovereignty” and another is “trying to force a particular resolution or outcome.” But those are worth revisiting if you would like.

Here’s one quote from this chapter that I really treasure:
“They (babies) don’t get hung up in thinking or lost in theoretical musings about this or that. They are not attached to things being a certain way. They are not always consistent. One day does not necessarily have to be like the next. Their presence and their teachings can help us break through to a direct experience of our true nature, and encourage us to find our own way, now, in this moment. They do this not by telling us how, but by giving us endless challenges that cannot be resolved through thinking, by mirroring life back to us in its fullness, by pointing to wholeness. More than anything, Zen Masters embody wakefulness and call it out of us.” On pages 91-92

In one of Breathe’s epiphanies she said the term mindfulness is more like “heartfulness.” And I totally agree with her. We can get caught up in “thinking” too deep into things. And I know we’ve talked about how our culture and past experiences can cloud or block our natural instincts. I’m trying very hard to break through what I think I know and just let my little “Zen Master” show me the master plan. I get so tired all of life’s complications…all the theories, studies, and mass commercialism. It’s such a ball of confusion. It’s nice to just try to focus on what is really important and let ds lead the way. Of course on a daily basis it is easier said than done. But I feel I am making progress. And the meditation really has helped me to break through some of my attachments and reactivities to certain situations. I can feel a huge difference this week. Although I still lose it occasionally. Two steps forward one step back. Another part of that quote that I thought was neat was the part where it says they are always “pointing to wholeness.” Our “wholeness” has been a big part of our discussion. Is anyone still struggling with their wholeness?

I hope you have had a chance to read this chapter. Although it’s a short chapter and revisits some familar terms I found it very interesting. I’m really curious to see how you have tied parts of this chapter to your own life experiences as a mom.
LiminalOne's Avatar LiminalOne 06:37 PM 01-12-2003
Hey all

I can't respond to all of Heather's thoughts b/c I haven't read in the book in so long, but wanted to chime in a bit on judging and what's going on with us here. Also, just a note to El (who's probably cooking some glorious food right now) that remember that we need to model imperfection for our kids too as well as community participation in meals/cleaning/etc. This was what I kept telling myself when ILs and the like have been visiting. When I would be slaving away in the kitchen and getting steamed up at teh same time, instead of internalizing it (and boiling over really quickly), I would verbalize that I needed help and justify it that Finn needs to see everyone do every kind of work. Not that this worked with FIL, but that's another story.

Back to judgement, this is so hard for me not to do b/c "I'm perfect" LOL. Sometimes, I think that I'm trying to be beyond the bounds of criticism, to go beyond that extra mile and "do it right" Boy, do I have issues as you can see. I also try to remember that I have no idea what someone else is going through (PPD, relationship troubles, etc) and that they are trying to do their best with whatever support they have, just like Jacqueline said (and I also liked your positive thought karma while driving discussion on the other thread mucho).

It's not a good rationale for any decision and I've been trying to loosen up a bit for my own sake and think about why we're doing what we're doing. Of course, I want Finn to have what he needs to grow and develop, but I have a tendency to think of him as vulnerable rather than adaptable, which means that I've only left him with my Mother (who lives 1000 miles away) a handful of times. Losing it (in bits and pieces) has been helpful for me to see that it's the collection of moments that Finn will take tucked inside of him, not the mistakes and that we can experiment a bit more with different things (tho I do have many limits still in place). This loosening up has helped me realize that I really want to finish my degree even if that means having a wee bit of childcare for Finn (previously a "no way") and not having a life on the weekends, no more glorious baking and knitting and cooking (at least until I meet a few deadlines). My own judgements of others were in some ways holding me captive as well. (this was my big ah ha moment)

And, Heather I finally got on the other thread and saw that dh was laid off. Our thoughts are with you guys and agree that opportunity's going to be knocking soon (vibes sent)

[ducks head and gets back to work]

happy thoughts to you all (book chapters, guests, stress goodbye)

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 08:16 PM 01-12-2003
Angie~Wow! Thanks for your insights and for your kind words and vibes~we can use all the good vibes we can get.

I hear ya about having issues....but I guess everyone has their quirks and issues. I personally shoot for perfection in many areas of my life. And I guess that is kinda crazy! And I have many issues I'm working on. But I have tried to learn that it's impossible to be in the moment 24/7 and not get frustrated in certain situations and as far as perfect--I'm way off! But I am good at making people think I have "it" all figured out...even myself. And then I get side-blinded and realize I am just human--not super woman. Then I just blow up and start over again. I've been told that it's o.k. to show anger in front of ds and it's o.k. to be human...as long as the anger isn't everyday.

And I am still struggling with seperations with ds. Since leaving him in the nursery at the YMCA during yoga last week he has developed seperation anxiety. He never cried as hard and frantically before when I would walk out of the house for a minute to check the mail and left him in the house b/c of freezing temps or go to the bathroom while someone holds him at playgroup. But I want to meet my needs too (in appropiate ways for our family). But at what cost and is there a cost for him getting so upset? Is he ready for this, am I really ready, and how does one know either answer? I don't feel whole when I sometimes feel like a prisoner at home b/c he cries in his carseat when we go somewhere or in a nursery and it's sometimes easier and less work to stay home and make our own fun.

Angie~I'm glad you're able to make some decisions for yourself in these areas. I am just trying to go with the flow and take it one day at a time for now. I know it will get easier for me as ds gets older. But why does the "now" always seem like forever? Then one day we realize that that particular "now" was ten or twenty years ago??

Jacqueline~What happened on Friday that sent you over the edge? You said you would let us know.

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 09:34 PM 01-12-2003
Hey, mamas! I did a search on "Live-In Zen Masters" and I found this neat interview with the KZs that I thought I'd pass onto you. It has some great insights.

Mamaste's Avatar Mamaste 09:46 PM 01-12-2003
I don't know what else to say about this chapter, because it tells exactly what happened in my life over the past handful of years. It tells what my son began teaching me more than 9 years ago. I never knew what I was missing until he came along. When my son was born, I was trapped in a life I didn't know I was trapped in. I thought I was running the show. Strangely, though, something seemed missing; I thought a child might fill the void. Along came my son, who filled more than the void -- he filled my heart and soul with feeling, feeling that I hadn't known I was missing.

My son's birth kick-started a long, arduous process of self-realization. At first, I was thrown into what amounted almost to a state of panic. I was wildly unhappy except when I was with him, but I didn't know why. I didn't associate my feelings with a need to slow down and *be* with him. Over the next 1-1/2 to 2 years, my son showed me how to be in the moment. I became consciously aware of the need to be mindful of his feelings and the world around us whenever I was with him, even though I was working completely from instinct.

In learning to listen to his feelings, I finally learned to listen to my own. It was at this point that I made some tremendously scary insights into my own life as a sleeper. I woke up. I made some big life changes, and I came out the other side much the better for it all.

End of dramatic little story.

Since then, I've done a lot of studying and learning about the path of mindfulness. My children remain my two best teachers. My son, the original teacher, showed me the path when I was completely lost in a tangle of trees. When I became pregnant with my daughter, I hoped that having another child would deepen my understanding and practice -- and she has.

I don't know what more I can add. What this chapter says is what my children do for me. I look at my children, and they look back with eyes that show me the depths and the heights. They truly are my practice of mindfulness, my practice of life.

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 11:30 PM 01-12-2003
Where's a Kleenex when ya need one?!! Geeeeez, Mamaste, you have a way with words and pulling on heartstrings! I think I'll go watch dh give ds his bath and enjoy him splashing in the tub. I know that's one thing I'll really miss seeing one day (sooner than I think). Thanks for such a sweet post and for the window into your world.
Breathe's Avatar Breathe 10:45 PM 01-13-2003
Wow. Well, this is what happens when you don't post for a few days, but I want to respond to several of you if I can keep my thoughts straight:

Mamaste, I know you and dh are terribly busy right now (or has the deadline passed?), but I would LOVE to hear some more specifics about your motherhood journey when you have time. Like, you said you made some life changes and woke up, and if you're comfortable sharing, I'd love to hear how you woke up and how your life was different pre and post ds. I just feel like a sponge when it comes to hearing other moms' experiences, so please do keep the stories coming, if you're so inclined!

Angie, it sounds like you've made a decision about grad school so I wanted to congratulate you on finding some closure in the decision-making process!

Jaqueline, I just typed a book about how judgemental I am and but deleted it bc it was just a lot of blather and I really don't see how anything good can come from me going on and on -- it kind of sounded like I'm perfect and no one ever lives up to my expectations . . . and that second part is very nearly true, but I think I need to meditate on this some more before trying to put it into words. Like you guys say, therapy needed here!

In terms of the full catastrophe, I was SO relieved to hear the KZs talk about how challenging parenting is. Dh and I were just talking this weekend about how we feel like parenthood has just kicked our butts. I mean, nothing is ever smooth around here. Everything is crazy -- the house is always in disarray, we're way behind on phone calls and emails and thank you notes, and we tag-team the evening routine so that both of us can eat before 9 p.m. Is it like this for you guys? I guess I just feel like it doesn't seem this hard for other people.

Oh, and talking about expectations? I would like to know how in the heck you can have a semblance of a routine without any expectations?!? I mean, I have to plan our day around when I *think* ds will eat, nap, etc., and then when he won't/can't comply, I am particularly frustrated. I start to feel a little trapped, bc if I'm just going to follow his cues all the time, then we can't leave the house, bc he may show his sleepy signs at any time! Argh.

Dh just tagged me . . . I'm "IT" for stories and bedtime songs tonight!

More soon. If I dare show my rambling butt here again . . . :
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 11:11 PM 01-13-2003
Breathe~You didn't ramble! Your thoughts made perfect sense and believe me when I say we've just about given up on keeping the house as clean as it ever "wasn't" before. I gave up on ds napping to get certain stuff done....like cooking and laundry. I make phone calls when he is awake b/c they don' take as long when he is talking in the background and I always have a good excuse to get off. I'm not much of a phone lover. But the thank you note thing and correspondence does suffer a bit but I think people understand when they don't hear back from me right away or get a thanks quickly as I used to do. We've definately lowered our expectations here!!! And that is usually o.k. with us. But frustrating sometimes too. So I know what you are saying!!

Mamaste~More please!! I can sure use your insights too...whenever you have time, not this week or anything!

I hope you are all well and good mama vibes to you all!!!! inky

Mamaste's Avatar Mamaste 12:06 AM 01-14-2003
Thanks for the support, ladies ... Two more nights of heavy editing and I'll be back in the world of the living ...
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 01:30 AM 01-14-2003
T Below is the first part of the MDC User Agreement and rule number one which I thought you'd get a kick out of b/c we have been talking about judgment and being critical. Also, I want to make sure I am following the agreement correctly and want to make sure our group is on target here. And I want to apologize if I have ever been critical or if anyone here has ever felt personally attacked on this thread. I do want to point out as well that advocating attachment parenting and natural family living on MDC is part of the package. Some of us are a little more crunchy than others and I think that's great but it does make it a little hard not to step on toes occassionally. But I think as long as we each continue to be empathetic and compassionate we'll do just great!!!

The MotheringDotCommune discussion boards serve an online community of parents and parents-to-be considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information and Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members. We have formed specific discussion guidelines and rules for maintaining a reciprocal and welcoming atmosphere for all discussion board participants. You are expected to avoid the following when you post:

1- Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
momcat's Avatar momcat 01:32 AM 01-14-2003
Hi, everyone -

Just wanted to check in and say hello - I'm feeling particularly "off" as a mama right now and just wanted to visit you all...

I can COMPLETELY relate to your thoughts, El, about how parenting kicks my butt. Every DAY it kicks my butt. I love ds so much, I know I'm learning tons from him, about him, and about me, but nobody ever told us how HARD it would be! Ai yi yi!

Night weaning. Dh is ready to wean ds from the bed. I'm not. Dh is ready for ds to sleep through the night. Although I am, I'm not ready to wean him from the breast in order to accomplish this. Any words of wisdom from any of you?

Work is stressing me out right now, too, as I have eight new scores to learn, finals to write and grade, and a job I was supposed to leave this week dragging out at least two more. Waah!

House cleaning. What? What's that you say? There shouldn't be dust an inch thick on the furniture? There shouldn't be cobwebs hanging from the ceiling? There shouldn't be piles of stuff masquerading as a diningroom table? It doesn't generally bother me that our house is a disaster area, but I think that I have some sort of feng shui need that surfaces from time to time.

And so, my rant is complete. Sorry, friends. I know you can relate!! I'm always so encouraged by the love, wisdom, and warmth you all exude... thank you for that gift.

Mamaste - hope you are well, that the deadline has past, that you are both happy with the outcome, and that you are getting a bit of rest! I, too, would love to hear more about your journey.

"Momcat" needs to become -
Karen (ah, that felt good...)
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 01:32 PM 01-14-2003
Karen~ Everyone told me how HARD it would be but I didn't believe them b/c I thought I was "superwoman" or something. Maybe I thought I was "smarter" and could think my way thru it? Either way at some point ya gotta take that "leap of faith" and say "there's no turning back" let's go for the gusto!!!! And that's what we have all done and I think we're coping, striving, and doing as well as we each possibly can. I think if we wait until we think we're "perfect" or "financially stable" it just blows up in our face like dh and I did and life has blown up in my face more than once over the last few years! I've had days when I just wanted to and did just b/c I didn't think I could do "this" job one more day. And I am one tough cookie so those were really Sh#@!y days!!!! So what was my point to say all this???? Just take it one moment at a time and breathe in really deep and out really deep. And repeat that all day long. And also one thing I've noticed with my Live-In Z.M. is that he is forcing me to face the demons I have tried to sweep under the rug my whole life. Is that how being a mom has changed you too? It's hard work facing demons. But baby Zen Masters disguised as an is quite a motivator for me.

Well here's a Karen and a happy dance too!! Be well my friends and like the song says "Hold on for one more day, cuz it's gonna go your way. Hold on for one more day!!"

Mamaste~Happy editing and best wishes on the book!!

Jacqueline~Where ya been, our faithful posting child?? :
mamabutterfly's Avatar mamabutterfly 03:42 PM 01-14-2003
1- Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Umm, I think this was directed at *this* thread, by the way. . Just kidding! I appreciate your kindness & supportiveness so much.

I don't know what's the matter with me these days. The recent chapter ends by saying:
"It [harmony] is here now, in us, and in our children, if we can but make room, over and over again, for it to emerge."

I feel so far from anything resembling harmony. That outward circumstances of our life are okay -- some stresses but nothing major -- and yet I am hanging on by a thread emotionally. Honestly, I find myself hanging around the PPD threads a lot because the experiences there are resonating with me.

Sophie has developed crazy sleeping patterns lately I know she's on the verge of walking, and getting a tooth, and this week had a cold/earache, so that's all part of it. But that doesn't stop me from being very frustrated by night and dragging by day. And there's some kind of grwy cloud that just hangs over me the past couple of weeks for no good reason.

I feel like 'harmony' is right here if I could see it, but I have the wrong glasses on most of the time.

blessings to all,

anne, who is also ready to have a name
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 03:52 PM 01-14-2003
Anne~Wow! Glad to meet ya, Mamabutterfly! Here's a and a to let you know I'm thinking of you! I hope you feel the good vibes here when you need some cheer and when the weeks are nothing but gray!
nuggetsmom's Avatar nuggetsmom 06:43 PM 01-14-2003
On friday~ I am trying to make sure our lab is compliant with the county safety rules which change weekly (at least it feels like it). So I was making sure all of our flammables are stored correctly and categorized correctly and throwing out old stuff. This requires filling out a huge manifest and getting rid of it through the correct channels since you are obviously not allowed to dump it down the drain. Funny thing is that the lab is not allowed to dump bleach in any quantity down the drain, and yet a household can use as much as they want. Watch out, because I can definately rant and rave about this.
So this is this huge administrative nightmare of a job that I volunteered for. And my advisor is hugely appreciative of it because the fines of not complying are huge and come out of his pocket (not lab funds). Then this woman in the lab who makes sure that she is never signed up to do the tough jobs, complains that someone volunteered to help me and that we are sharing one (HUGE) job. I just got so peeved because she never goes the extra mile, and I always do at least my fair share if not extra. I believe that the lab is a team and we all have to work together to get everything done. Then, to send me over the edge, I worked at my chore for a couple of hours in the morning, even thought the official start time of lab chores is starting at noon. As I am leaving to go swimming at noon, she makes a comment about that. Like I am trying to cut out completely.
There is a saying in dutch "as the innkeeper is, he trusts his guests" I guess she is the kind of person who would cut out altogether, and so she would see me as the kind who also woul

On high wages: Yesterday I was doing Yoga and ignoring, if that is possible, DD. She likes to climb on me (in cobra) and underme. Suddenly she leaves her game of reorganizing DH's nightstand, and runs up to me and gives me a kiss.

momcat~ I looked up housecleaning in the dictionary, but I still don't understand what it is, and I don't understand where all this stuff comes from either. And having just caught up with the laundry, I am behind again. I admit, that I don't even CD, and I don't even feel guilty most of the time. I only feel guilty about not feeling guilty. But I can only keep up with so much. And I am struggling with getting a cleaning lady, which I need desperately, because I don't want them to spray my house full of poison.

I think that except for my ranting and raving this thread is exceptionally nice and complies very well.

OK, I am on the verge of a major existential crisis, which I need to explore and I will post on it later this week. As well as my thoughts on my little Zenmaster. Who loves her own belly by the way. I ask her where it is and she will lift up her shirt and rub it with these gleeful little sounds.
I need to organize my thoughts on this chapter.
Megs Mom's Avatar Megs Mom 07:16 PM 01-14-2003
Oh, goodness, there is always so much to say here and not enough time to type. I wish we could all get together in person and just gab and play with our ZMs...

KAREN and ANNE! It feels so so good to know your real names, lilke we are all just a little more intimate. That means a lot to me right now especially, since there is no intimacy in my life except with Meg. DH just started his new job and is working long hours, and I'm new tol this city, alone all day with Meg. I went to my first LLL mtg. here in Dallas and although it was good to be with like-minded moms again, it mostly made me miss my old group terribly.

Which is very very relevant to this discussion for several reasons!

1) The topic of the meeting was what we want to improve on this year with our mothering, and I talked about being more mindful!

2) AND, I went in there with too many expectations, rather than letting these women just be who they are. I was resenting them b/c they aren't the women I left behind. Lots of lessons here but I'm not ready to get into them all yet.

Regarding housecleaning, I've recommended it before but it can't be said enough. Go to http://www.flylady.net

ETA: the signatures are back!
LiminalOne's Avatar LiminalOne 07:56 PM 01-14-2003
Just a quick hello. They graduate school honeymoon has worn off a bit (after only 3 short days) and I'd rather surf the internet.

Annalisa - I'm a moving wimp, so you have my sympathies. We've been here awhile and I still feel like I don't have enough of a support system/community in place, so I feel for you. Keep looking around though and I'm sure that you'll meet some kindred spirits for you and your little ones. How's the temp?

Jacqueline - We look forward to hearing about your existential crisis. Any hints???

Anne - hopefully you can take it easy with yourself and find some harmony. sleep deprivation is serious stuff, regardless of what else is going on

Karen and El and Heather - Can I join the Butt-Kicked Club?
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 09:30 PM 01-14-2003
Angie~Yes, you can join the butt-kicked club! My butt is so kicked today!!!!! I feel like the train the Breathe said is pulling her behind some days is actually running me over right now!! Earlier today was better! And it will get better later! Dh and I are having one of those moments. Stress!!! Ugggh! We're taking a break from our ugliness at the moment. So no go on the grad school decision now? Wow! What a turnaround from the other day. But I've had that kind of month myself. Some days, since the layoff, I think I'll go get a job. Then I say no way!! Then I feel guilty. Then I realize things will all work out soon. Just enjoy dh while he is home more now.

Jacqueline~Sounds like you have a lot going on at work and in life! I want to hear about your existential crisis and in the mean time keep up the yoga playtime! It is pretty fun. I can manage to get some clarity even under those circumstances. But ever since I started going to the YMCA I've gotten a little spoiled and now realize how disciplined I have been to keep it up at home with ds climbing all over me and sometimes even begging to nurse just to get my attention, even if he just nursed. Then we stop the tape and nurse of course.

Analisa~I know what ya mean about the "expectations" you have for people. When we moved to Texas a few years ago I was majorly disapointed b/c I had so many expectations. It can take years to re-build a support system. But with LLL and AP support people it won't take years for you. Maybe just months. I'm sorry for your isolation and here's a great big !!!! Hang in there and congrats on the house!!!! How exciting!

Well I better get back to dh and ds. I feel better now!!!
Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 09:36 PM 01-14-2003
Tara~If you're lurking here's a for you! You must be really swamped!!!!

Mamakarata~Can I start calling you by your real name? I think I know what it is...if it starts with a C and ends in an L. Hope you're well wherever you are....
Mamaste's Avatar Mamaste 09:43 PM 01-14-2003
*dashes in to make sure we haven't moved the thread to Timbuktu*

Analisa! Don't you dare be lonely in Dallas! Hop on over to APConnect! and post up some meeting times, maybe at a mall near you. You might not draw a crowd, but you'll probably shake loose a mama or two nearest you! And there's always Valley View mall on Friday ...

I feel very unmindful these days, letting poor DD roam around with her toys while I sit endlessly at the computer. I think I'm going to need to spend a few days detox-ing after this. Think I could convince her to stay in bed with me and just nurse all day?
mamakarata's Avatar mamakarata 11:08 PM 01-14-2003
hey all-

been hangin back reading everyones posts and had to laugh at the yoga comments.

just yesterday i was caught up in a yoga/excercise video on all fours leaning down with one breast out and ds holding on with all his might to get that suckle in, while i am lifting my leg on the other side....yeah. it was a sight.

and yes, heather, by all means. my name is cheryl! i am too lazy to sign off. thanks for snooping for me!

just pondering el's expectation question. thinking, my expectations do play out on a big scale, like, i am working at home until 1:00pm and then dh will take over until 5pm today- or whatever the day is scheduled to be. but beyond that, it really is fly by the seat of our pants.

i don't imagine that anyone has it easy all of the time, but i do suppose that the book is helping us with our mindset so that we aren't feeling trapped all of the time. i definitely relate to the trapped feeling.

i'll bet if we all had the time to visit each and every one of eachother's homes and really get a look at the daily routine (if you could call it that!), we'd learn that somewhere in each person's home, is a sacrifice that we either haven't taken, or aren't willing to take, and vice versa.

we all talk about what works or doesn't work, but no one really has the big picture on us you know?

this thread seems to help me because somehow through the cosmos and what have you, we all have come to find this book interesting in this day and time of our lives, which means that among the million things we have all done and are doing, this idea....mindfulness, has made it to the top 10? 20? 30? 40? of our priorities.

i really had no point. oh wait. i did.

when el made the example of not being able to leave if following her babes cues for sleep,

i thought "i'd leave, and ds would fall asleep in the car, and maybe get woken up again, but if it were something i had to do, it wouldn't be the end of the world..."

and then thought "but maybe it is really important to el that she not interrupt her babes sleep, which is important, that our babes get their sleep. man does she have her priorities straight"

and then thought "does that make me a bad parent that i would?",

and then i thought, "no, just a different parent",

and then i thought "if we all had the time to visit eachother's house.... " and you know the rest.

i say all of that with no judgement. just a thought among many (as you can see)

although i love my work from home and work out of the home set up, i definitely admire those who have set it up to be full time parents for the one on one time they have created.

yet i don't think myself vicitim to my circumstances that we couldn't afford it if i did that (because we couldn't), because i know i had choices to get to this point.

and neither do i beat myself up for only being able to play in little snatches of time during my work from home time. i can't. i could. and i have. but i know i shouldn't.

but i do know, that maintaining this awareness for myself, helps me to be present when my time is free, and to include ds in the task of doing my laundry, washing the dishes, cooking our meal, or driving to the store.

that awareness (which is always potential guilt or low self esteem, or whatever emotion i can try and give it) helps me remember all of the in between moments when i really don't have time. because every diaper change, meal prep, and toy pick up is a time to tell a story of changing a diaper, prepping a meal, or picking up a toy. ds loves to listen and help, as well as yell and mess it all back up.

my sacrifice is not being able to play with him all of the time. but my reward is keeping him home with me or my husband full time.

just some rambling thoughts. i hope it seems somehow relevant to our thread. i really do love everyones thoughts here.

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 11:37 PM 01-14-2003
Cheryl (aka Mamakarata)~Just call me the detective! Thanks for your thoughts! They did help.

I have some exciting news! No dh didn't get a job yet! That would be too easy! We're still living the full catastrophe! This Sunday Rainsmom will be posting her thoughts about the next chapter "Eighteen Year Retreat." Rainsmom joined the discussion last year tho' we haven't heard much from her lately. I asked her if she would be willing to post her thoughts on the next chapter from her viewpoint since she has a two year old and also a grown child. She's lived the 18 year retreat once and is now doing it again. I'm really excited to see her insights on Sunday!

The other exciting news is that I emailed Jon Kabat-Zinn and asked him if he has a leader guide or advice to leading our discussion. I want to make sure we don't fizzle out before we finish the book...which could be months away. I've been searching for a leaders guide on the book for several months and checking on-line to see if anyone else has discussed this book on-line or in person. So I thought I'd go straight to the real expert on this book. I hope to hear back soon.
LiminalOne's Avatar LiminalOne 08:14 PM 01-16-2003
Straight to the man, Heather! Way to go. I hope that you hear back soon.

Thanks, Cheryl, for your thoughts. I'm impressed by your ability to have it all make sense to you and to see the trade-offs of life without too much guilt (or viewing guilt as a little reminder to be mindful when you can rather than a place to sit and stew). I'm thinking about which "sacrifices" I wouldn't make. For me, I think it really depends on where I think he's at in understanding my rationale, so it's always evolving.

I'm starting to be a little less flexible about naps (tho bedtime is another story, yawn). Normally, Finn falls asleep during one of his nursings in the afternoon and then i just carry him upstairs, sometimes it's 11:30 and sometimes it's 3:30 (we're just not that into routine here). But, lately around 2:30, I start communicating that it's naptime and that pretty soon, we're going to sleep and that he looks sleepy to me and that he can choose to sleep in the sling or fall asleep nursing. It's been working pretty well and he normally chooses nursing (tho used to love the sling). But I change his dipe standing up while he's playing (even the poopy ones :g) and even nurse while changing him

he's up

gotta run
nuggetsmom's Avatar nuggetsmom 08:47 PM 01-16-2003
Good going Heather,

Cheryl, good thoughts. I really enjoyed reading them.

A hint about my crisis is that Ifeel politically lost. ;I feel that the world wants us to do it all - work, and not work, and pick up the kids at 2 from school (what kind of crazy time is that) and since they can't seem to teach them anything in school afte r the after school program we have to fix them healthy food, give them exersize and do their homework and when are we supposed to sleep? All this, and we all want someone else to fix it, but the bigger the govermnment that is supposed to fix it gets, the more money they suck up that doesn't go to the things we want (need) them to fix. Plus the difficulty in staying an educated consumer is beconming overwhelming and time consuming. Am I really a libertarian after all? I know DH is but I think the limitation of Laissez faire capatalism is that many people are just not considerate and without regualtions to guide them they would get out of control. I just feel very confused and overwhelmed by all this and I am not sure what this has to do with this thread. Except that I wonder if I am really a buddhist too.

I wish we had spellcheck.
Breathe's Avatar Breathe 10:23 PM 01-16-2003
Hello Lovely Women,

I'm going way back here 'cuz there was some juicy stuff I never replied to. ANd this may take a while, so I think I'll reply to each of you separately . . .

Dear, Sweet Anne, I have edited your post below -- see what you come away with when you read it like this:

Originally posted by mamabutterfly
I don't know what's the matter with me these days. . . .

I feel so far from anything resembling harmony. That outward circumstances of our life are okay -- some stresses but nothing major -- and yet I am hanging on by a thread emotionally . . .

Sophie has developed crazy sleeping patterns lately I know she's on the verge of walking, and getting a tooth, and this week had a cold/earache, so that's all part of it. But that doesn't stop me from being very frustrated by night and dragging by day. And there's some kind of grwy cloud that just hangs over me the past couple of weeks for no good reason.

I feel like 'harmony' is right here if I could see it, but I have the wrong glasses on most of the time.

In no way do I mean to minimize your gray feelings, but I was struck by how much you're speaking out a place of total sleep deprivation. I am SO with you on this. My ds (almost 16 mos) has been waking every hr or so for about 3 mos now. If this is the dreaded teething, can someone please tell me why babies who sleep in cribs don't have the same teething pain?!? (I'm assuming Sophie is a co-sleeper . . . maybe I'm wrong?) In any case, there have been moments of complete and utter doubt, where I am just CERTAIN we have done the wrong thing with sleep, such that ds just can't sleep more than a little while at a time. And when I get so completely exhausted, as it sounds youa re now, I start to doubt if *I* am the right person to be with him all day. I mean, maybe he'd be better off with someone who sleeps at night!!!! 'Cause Heaven knows I can't be creative when I'm struggling to stay awake (hence the activities thread!).

In any case, I just wanted to acknowledge your concerns, Anne, and let you know that you are neither alone NOR are you wearing the wrong glasses . . . you may just be too tired to see thru them! Hang in there, Sweetie!
Breathe's Avatar Breathe 10:33 PM 01-16-2003
Originally posted by momcat
Night weaning. Dh is ready to wean ds from the bed. I'm not. Dh is ready for ds to sleep through the night. Although I am, I'm not ready to wean him from the breast in order to accomplish this. Any words of wisdom from any of you?
Oy veh. I have no wisdom to offer, Karen, but wanted to sympathize. Seems like dh and I go thru this every couple of weeks. It's funny, cuz I am JUST as frustrated and tired as he is, but when HE suggests changing things, I get SO protective of our family bed!!! It's like, "We'll night wean if *I* say so, but NOT bc you want me to!!!"

In any case, all I can offer is that dh slept in the guest room a few nights recently bc he was recovering from some oral surgery and I swear, ALL of us slept better. DH slept thru the night for a week (I know, if he EVER complains again I will go ballistic!), and I was so muvh less stressed by ds's waking, bc I wasn't worried about dh having to go to work in the a.m.

Speaking of which, how on EARTH do you WOHMs do this nightwaking thing?!?!?

So here I am rxing sleeping apart from your dh -- I used to read threads about that in HORROR and say, "That's AWFUL! The couple should be the center of the family!!! They're letting their child run the show!!!"

Yup. He's runnin' it all right.
Breathe's Avatar Breathe 10:39 PM 01-16-2003

Originally posted by Megs Mom
Regarding housecleaning, I've recommended it before but it can't be said enough. Go to http://www.flylady.net

Ok, Analisa, spill it. Does this FLYlady stuff really help? I've surfed the site and at first thought it was a joke, but I now see she's for real. Do you really get 10 emails a day? And don't you get a lot of spam (yahoo is notorious for all the spam, esp porn spam)? I must admit that part of me is resisting the notion that your house has to be so clean and organized -- still thinking about that.

Oh, and CONGRATULATIONS on the new house! I cannot BELIEVE you've been living in a hotel room since you moved! (How did I miss that?!?!) I know you'll be so happy to be settled!

Curly Locks's Avatar Curly Locks 10:49 PM 01-16-2003
Hi, Mamas! Dh has been around a lot more lately and so we've been taking advantage of it and doing stuff we can't usually do when he's at work (story time at the library and yoga at the Y etc.)! So it's been hard to focus on your thoughts when I am reading them so I can reply. But I've been enjoying my little Zen and reflecting on your wisdom and trial in life too.

Dh just called me down to the basement and said ya gotta come see this! So I did and he had built a fort with blanket and table for ds and he to play in. The activity thread has helped us a lot! Open my link to see our laundry basket ride! Dh loves that one! I tried to take a pic with him but I had some tech. difficulty!

Breathe~Thanks for sharing your thoughts today with those that posted already. Ds has been going since 6:30 this morning and only one nap for an hour...maybe if he goes to bed early I'll be back later.

I'm a wanted woman!! Gotta go!
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