Mindful Parenting Book Club Part IV - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 207 Old 01-29-2003, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Welcome to Part IV of our book discussion on "Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful Parenting" by Myla and Jon Kabat-Zinn. We are discussing one chapter a week, we move forward on Sundays and this Sunday, February 2 we will be moving to "Breathing" on page page 110 of Part IV of the book, "Mindfulness: A Way of Seeing." There are ten Parts to the book which is almost 400 pages. If you are not currently part of our discussion, you are welcome to join us. Some of us have read the book and some of us are reading it as we go. And some of us are re-reading it as we go. For your convenience here are some helpful links:
Powell's Books: http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/bibli...7-0786883146-2
Table of Contents: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...er#reader-link
MPBC Part III http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...0&pagenumber=1
Support for MF Mamas: http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sh...&threadid=32560

Every so often we create a new thread to save loading time. That is the reason for the new thread.

Here is the current schedule for discussion leaders:
Feb. 2 Breathe ~ "Breathing" page 110
Feb. 9 mamakarata ~ "Practice as Cultivation" page 113
Feb. 16 nuggetsmom ~ "Free Within Our Thinking" pg 116
Feb. 23 Lim.One ~ "Discernment Vs. Judging" pg 120
Mar. 2 Megs Mom ~ "Formal Practice" page 124
Mar. 9 ????~ "Letters to a Young Girl Interested in Zen" pg 129
Mar. 16 ???~ "The Stillness Between Two Waves" pg. 146

Part V "A Way of Being"
Mar. 23 ??? ~ "Pregnancy" pg 153
Mar. 30 ???~"Birth" pg 160
April 6 ??? ~ "Well-Being" pg. 165
April 13 ???~ "Nourishment" pg. 169
April 20 ???~ "Soul Food" pg 174
April 27 ???~ "Family Bed" pg. 178

There are ten parts to the book with almost 400 pages in the book. Please feel free to volunteer to lead our discussion for any week with ???s next to a date.

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#2 of 207 Old 01-29-2003, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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T Here's what I found out about the database error message we keep getting:
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Originally posted by Cynthia Mosher
We all get it when we try to access the boards at a time when there are many users on the board or when the users on the board are opening several windows for different board pages at once. Our hosting package is one that allows only so many users to access at once. All you can do is keep trying or come back later when it's not so busy. Sorry for the inconvenience and frustration and we hope to be upgrading our service in the near future to accommodate more users.

~Cynthia

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#3 of 207 Old 01-29-2003, 08:28 PM
 
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So what is a healthy way to show/express your anger? I am realistic here in thinking that I will not get to a place in my life where I will never have any, so what is the best way to express it.
Mmmm I should study how I express it right now..

Also, I have a hard time letting DD struggle. She is very verbal (well, KWIM) aobut when she is frustrated (as is DH) or stuff like that. IT is hard for me to let her be with those feelings. I want to just help her, but that really doesn't help her at all. I am learning to just give her feeling a name, but I feel like we are in challenging territory right now. She hits when we do something she doesn't like, and cries when things don't go her way (which is about 17 times a day) and all sorts of similar little things. It's like it all just changed in the last week and my head is reeling trying to catch up with what to do. I don't want my automatic reaction to take over because that is not the right thing either (getting angry). I have plenty to ponder and Haven't had time to process it.

BTW. I copied the threads into word, becuase I wanted to preserve some of the things we wrote since sometimes I don't copy my ponderings into a journal like I wish I did. So, fellow mindfull mama's, without the support thread, we are up to almost 300 pages!!! A book in it't own right I would say.
Don't worry, I won't violate your copyrights~ I am after all married to Mr Intellectual Property.
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#4 of 207 Old 01-29-2003, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Jacq~Thanks for saving the threads in Word. I tried to open the older ones today and had no luck! Maybe we will want that document to look over one day! Ya never know...300 pages...WOW!

I think it's o.k. to express anger. Just as long as it's not beligerant...IYKWIM? That's all part of being "whole" and human. And as far as allowing her to feel and express her frustration, that is tricky! I'm sure the moms with olders will chime in about that. I'm not to that stage yet.

I hope you and nugget are feeling better.
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#5 of 207 Old 01-29-2003, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just in case someone is wondering where we are at in the book: "Importance of Practice" page 106.

Here are the quotes from the book I posted on the other thread from this chapter as a refresher or if you missed it:

Quote:
Originally posted by Curly Locks
“Importance of Practice” ~ Chapter Four of Part IV (pages 106-109)

For anyone that hasn’t read this chapter yet or has and needs a refresher here’s a quote from page 106 and 107 that will get you pumped: “We have to learn to live in the present. We have to practice seeing with eyes of wholeness. Why? Because, perhaps due to the nature of the human mind, especially if it was not embraced with kindness and fully nurtured in childhood, we spend much of our lives practicing the exact opposite of mindfulness. We practice not living in the present moment. We practice being carried away from our center, from our sovereignty, from our interconnectedness, by our thoughts and feelings, our likes and dislikes. We practice anxiety. We practice getting angry. And the more we practice, through repeating these patterns in our lives, the “better” we get at them, and the harder they are to break out of. We practice being firmly attached to views and models of reality that are only partially accurate or don’t pertain at all, feeding the automatic pilot mode in ourselves, generating consequences with our less-than-sovereign, less-than-empathetic, less-than-accepting actions, which then come back to compound our actions, which then come back to compound our problems, our confusion, and lack of clarity regarding our own lives.”

Here’s a quote that explains the use of the word “practice” here. From page 107: “We are using the word “practice” somewhat differently from the way it was originally thought if. “Practice” here means embodying wholeness right now. It is not like practicing the piano, or a dance step. It is not an exercise or a rehearsal. It is not to get better at something by repeating it over and over again, although a deepening does occur.”
I'm not trying to deter from the great discussion we are already having about "inner work" or "mindfulness." Just making sure everyone knows where we are in the book. inky
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#6 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 01:54 AM
 
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I have been lurking since before christmas and asked for the book in my AP playgroup gift exchange and got it!

I've been slowly reading the book and I am just about to the chapter that you all are on. I would love to join the discussion because I am finding the book to be so inspirational.

I have been practicing being present to whatever I am faced with...it has been challenging. I have a 2.5 year old ds and a 2 month old dd and a great husband.

Glad to join the group!
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#7 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Welcome to the group, Iguanavere! And thanks for your intro. I look forward to your thoughts!
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#8 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I know my reply to nuggetsmom about anger was not very clear or helpful! Maybe someone can help me elaborate! When I said as long as you're not beligerant I assume everyone knows and not abusive. And try not to attack the person but anger/frustration toward the behavior/situation is o.k. Any other thoughts? :
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#9 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 03:53 PM
 
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BTW, Breathe, I do want to move in next door to you. Of course we just bought a house (at the peak of the market ) and we both have jobs here, but for the record, I do want to move in next door.

Ahh, Anger, it is something that I struggle with and I am not sure that there is a eal answer. I was reading somewhere that the appropriate way to express it is:
name your feeling, I am angry, I am frustated, or whatever. Then explain the behavior that is making you feel angry (using a positive I statement ~something I am not good at) and then correct the behavior.
If your anger is too intense, you are supposed to leave the room (baby in crib or safe place) and vent it elsewhere, and then come back and explaind and apologise.
Well, I can try to be mindful of that technique... But the problem with anger is that it lurches up like a giant demon and bites me in the btt.
Then I am no longer thinking and just reacting. Well, there you go.

I love the idea of trying to get something that will remind me to be mindfull. One thing I was thinking of doing was to write down my "intentions" (skip to the very end of the book) and to spend a minute or so every mornign reviewing just one of them. MAybe one that I am havinga hard time with. That way it is in your mind every day and you are atarting the day on a positive note.

Nugget and I are both feeling better. I think she had her healing crisis last night and slept from 7 till 7:30 !!!!!!!
An unprecedented event I might add. She briefly woke up once and really didn't want to be taken out of her bed, which is what I did. She lurched for the crib and I gave her some water in a cup and she went back to sleep. I woke up this morning freaking out. I was sure something bad had happened overnight. But she was in her crib playing with the monkey. We all overslept because we rely on her to be the alarm clock.

Last night as I put her to bed, I really tried to have an open mind about what was going to happen. I really tried to stay in the moment - I meant to bathe her, bt she wasn't into it. NO problem. She was really crying, yet not wanting to be held, and I was just there and supposrtive and letting her have her feelings (of tiredness, and sickness and general malaise) and finally she crawled in my lap and nursed to sleep. I really feel like it was a mindful, being there and in the moment on my part.

I have more to say, but work calls.
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#10 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 03:59 PM
 
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Practicing Mindfulness:

"We practice anxiety. We practice getting angry. And the more we practice, through repeating these patterns in our lives, the “better” we get at them, and the harder they are to break out of."

This really hit home for me. I am struggling with reacting to DS when he doesn't listen to me. My reactions aren't always so gentle and I am ashamed that I have often done that same kind of crap that my parents did with me when I was young. I realize now that I have practiced all of these behaviors for years that when I do react it's because that was what was modeled for me and what has been practiced for years.

When I fully focus on being mindful, I am always surprised at how easy it is to handle ds when he is being challenging. I don't get angry and it is almost amazing that I don't. The struggle is being mindful every minute of the day and asking for help when I can't be mindful any longer.

One of the things that scared me about these concepts was that I associated the idea of meditation and acceptance to be almost apathetic. No caring. I realize now that I have attachments to being angry and I didn't want to give up the "practice" of being angry. Now I see that I can be angry, acknowlege that that is how I feel, but I don't need to direct it.

Does this make sense?

Andy Curley Locks - i thought your comments about anger to make sense.
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#11 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Gotta hurry...but I wanted to say, Iguanavere, that your thoughts made sense too. And so did Nuggetsmom! Very well put. Anger is such a touchy subject for most people and the root cause of my anger is so mysterious to me. Some is from childhood wounds and learned behavior, I'm sure. But do people that had parents that didn't show anger, or weren't angry in general, get angry? Maybe their parent's reactions to frustrations are different than people that did have visually angry parents with poor coping skills. I never know from one day to the next how I will cope in a frustrating situation. On days when I am mellow and feeling well I handle frustrations so well and then another day when I am tense, tired, agitated, or stressed (or all of the above) I just react and don't even think, like nuggetsmom posted. And I agree, when you know you're about to loose it, it does help when you're trying to mindful of that b/c at least you can try to brace for it and not totally go ballistic. And then other days it is easier to breathe thru it. I'm still trying to get to the point where I am not blaming others for my blow-ups and take responsibility for my reactions before the erruption occurs, but in the heat of anger I don't always reason well.

Well I really have to go now but I'm glad we're touching on anger here b/c I think it's important to think about. A lot of damage can be done in one erruption. But from what I understand the child that is well attached is better able to cope and understand that the scary emotions are not b/c he is a bad child or not loved. And therefore a wide array of emotions are o.k. to see. And like someone else mentioned...always apologize after an incident of strong scary emotions is displayed in front of your child.
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#12 of 207 Old 01-30-2003, 10:46 PM
 
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I think it's important to remember that labelling emotions and reactions isn't always a positive thing. Being angry isn't always bad, just as feeling intense love for something or someone isn't always good. The emotions themselves are just states. It's what we do with them that shows our mettle.

I'm trying to work with 18mo. DD to show anger at appropriate times without causing her to react to it inappropriately. I don't want her to take on guilt, be scared, become overdramatic, whatever ... I want to show her that sometimes things happen (or she can do things) that make people feel angry -- and that angry people are still loving people and especially that they are forgiving, compassionate people. If I tried to nix my anger, she would not learn any of these lessons -- and we would miss a very warm, vital link in the trust-building of our relationship.

Hmmm. I think too many people do not trust themselves or the people they are with enough to be angry. We've become a culture of "Fine -- I'm outta here" people. -- oops, bathtime's done, back later I hope ...
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#13 of 207 Old 01-31-2003, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It is with very mixed emotions that I type this! I want to respond to Mamaste's last post about anger which I found very helpful. But I am just going to try to make this quick b/c ds is fussy and dh needs me to get off-line and there's lots going on here right now.

I'm really going to miss reading your post's next week while our computer is unplugged. I will be thinking of you all and trying to "breathe" thru the tough times we will encounter while trying to live w/o the computer and TV for seven full days. You all have become such a big part of my life! Have a great discussion next week! I'll be back in seven days.

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#14 of 207 Old 02-01-2003, 04:12 PM
 
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Kept waiting for a msg from this thread and then realized I wasn't subscribed!

First of all, it's wonderful to have you, Iguanavere!

I was talking about not wanting to model anger for ds on the old thread, and what I meant was, I don't want to model my INAPPROPRIATE anger. My irrational anger. The ex. was that I wanted to throttle the neighbor kids for being noisy when I was trying to get ds down for a nap. That's just not fair, and it's a little bit crazy! They're kids and they are entitled to play outside! It's ridiculous for me to think that the whole world should revolve around my life.

So just to recap, I figured out that my anger popped up as a means for avoiding my true feelings: exhaustion, diappointment, boredom, frustration.

So what I really should have said is that yes, I MUST model anger for my ds -- at the appropriate times and in an appropriate way -- which is what you all have been pondering. But I do think that I must "swallow" that irrational bitterness and cynicism (at least for appearances sake) and apply my breathing and mindfulness to it. I do not think ds can benefit from watching that particular process, at least not at this tender age.

Mamaste, can you expand on what you meant by: "I think it's important to remember that labelling emotions and reactions isn't always a positive thing." How can labeling an emotion be negative?

Nuggetsmom, sounds like you're doing exactly what the nugget needs you to do . . . as mysterious as that has been for you recently. I'm sympathetic to the outbursts and the protests. You've definitely got a developing will on your hands, and it's likely you WON'T get the time to catch up to it. I feel like that so much -- about my life in general ("If I could only catch up . . ."). You're doing a good job of just hanging on for the ride!

Oh, and I'll start working on trying to drive my neighbors out. Think you can be prepared to move here in a year or so? Off to buy ds the biggest drum set I can find!

P.S. When Curly Locks gets back (we will miss her SO!), I think I may be taking a hiatus of my own. I gotta break my dependence on this machine!
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#15 of 207 Old 02-01-2003, 05:57 PM
 
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I did the same thing, El -- forgot to subscribe to this thread and wondered why you all were so quiet! :LOL

Good to see you still talking... I find myself back into a more serious engagement with the practice of mindfulness. It is no coincidence that this happens as dd has been sleeping better. Exhaustion is really such a strong factor on state of mind. It has helped me to just remember that within the sleep deprivation it *is* okay to just focus on being-with my tiredness, to be awre and name it and watch the emotions that come up in me as a result.

Keeping up with my own emotional temperature, especially by journaling, prayer, yoga, and talking nightly with dh, usually helps me to recognize my patterns. I am more likely to feel frustration when I am tired. So when I am giving voice to my tiredness, I can be vigilant for the cranky feelings that might make me less paitent with Sophie. I can ask for that extra support for her.

I know my own Mom never expressed extremes of emotion (very British & proper) and especially didn't like to fell/show anger. I know this was awfully hard for my Dad... actually, as a kid & adolescent, I was really hard on my father for 'having a temper', and thought my reserved Mom was much more mature. But at least my Dad was honest and let you know what he was feeling. Mom's approach was something you could never respond to -- if she was really angry she'd leave the room. Conversation was over.

I know I am seeking a different path than either of these when I raise my children. I still fear conflict but am trying to be much more present to my emotions, including anger, and talk about what I'm feeling while it's happening. I know it would be hard for me not to "soothe" dd right away, but to really give space for her feelings. I'll be interested to hear how other mamas approach this with toddlers.

I'm missing Heather already! Sure it will be a beautiful retreat though.

mamabutterfly

p.s. Welcome Inguanavere! Looking forward to your contributions. Thanks for joining us on this journey...

teapot2.GIF Mama to my sweet girls: notes.gif (2/02) and energy.gif (2/08) and brokenheart.gif 3/11 and now belly.gif  EDD 5/24/14
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#16 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 11:20 AM
 
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hah! did the same thing. didn't subscribel to the new thread. i even went search on mdc to see if there was a new update in case my 'puter was failing to get me the updates! and of course found Part IV.

this is such a great topic for me too.

so much of what everyone has said made sense.

the only thing i would add to this, is what i learned from some earlier work in a meditation class, which is that beneath all of our painful emotions: anger, sadness, frustrations etc, lies a fear of some sort.

and that there are only 5 or 6 main fears really- fear of failure, success, rejection, death, illness, and i think another, but cant' remember.

anyway, the work i did in this class was to identify the main few, because evidently, there are usually only 2 or 3 main fears that we are dealing with in our lifetime (hopefully).

that has been a stretch for me, because i have to really stop and take some time to identify the fear before responding, and my tendency is to react and inflict some return hurt to the offender, to even the score somehow.

my main fears? rejection and failure.

it plays out like so:

12yo dd needs help with something (like her hair), i help, but in the process she gets panicky that i am making it look awful- (btw, never let them watch in the mirror. it's like kids love your cooking until they know all the ingredients!)

so in her panic she starts telling me i am doing it wrong, and getting all frustrated. (she is approaching- that age- so i can appreciate it is somewhat typical), but the way she handles it is by being all snippy snappy and stopping the whole process. (also somewhat typical)- but now comes in my fear.

"i am going to be late to work" (failure), "my office will find me not holding up my end of the bargain" (rejection), "my dd is a brat and i have raised her this way" (failure), " i must correct it before it gets any worse" (my reaction in anger, which causes more rejection).

problem for me is, it takes a lot of time to come to these conclusions. i imagine the solution to that is practice by taking the time, and that it will get easier and quicker for me to do this.

when i succeed at identifying the fear, i am then able to relay my fear (which is owning my own experience and not blaming others for my feeling) and it calms the whole thing down. i don't have to inflict hurt to say it, they don't feel like a piece of sh*t for their own obvious fears running on them, and we all get closer.

but let me tell ya, it takes practice. and it is something i am definitely still working on.

make sense? anyone else identify their main fears?
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#17 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 12:04 PM
 
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Mamakarata - yes - i know what my main fear is and that is failure. I set what I think are realistic expectation but really they are not reallistic. I went to a good parenting seminar called "Quality Parenting" and they talk about our lower sleves come out when we are under stress or fearful. That is definitely true of myself.

BTW - what is the week meditation that Curley Locks is taking?
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#18 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 06:42 PM
 
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It's a wonder any of us find each other - I, too forgot to subscribe to the new thread!:

About fear - I was subbing for a friend of mine this morning at a church I don't usually attend, and the pastor spoke about demons. Now, people today don't generally think of demons in the way that people did hundreds of years ago (we're more scientific, more rational), but we still have plenty of demons that plague us, both on a personal and societal level.

Fear is definitely mine. And, like others, it is often fear of failure, fear of doing something "wrong," or less than perfectly. I'm a big worry-wart. If I am honest with myself, I can say that fear is really a big motivating force. I'm working on it, though...

Off topic: I thought of you, El, when a friend of mine said yesterday that her two older children (ages 5 and 3) are lobbying pretty hard to get one of those cars to ride on! Seems they are pretty popular, even here in the snowy north!
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#19 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 10:13 PM
 
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The fear theory fits me well, too. I have also heard Gary Zukov (The Seat of the Soul) say that anger is always hiding fear OR hurt. And that makes very good sense to me, when I examine my angry moments.

So my question to you Zen mamas is, if we can identify our underlying feeelings to the extent that we get better at feeling them, and therefore are less likely to get angry instead of hurt or afraid, is the end goal that we should NEVER be angry? I mean, is that what Buddha would say?

And of course we'll never get there, but then maybe I *shouldn't* be modeling anger for ds, because this theory says it's not an authentic feeling . . . Can we take it one step further and say that anger is a LEARNED feeling? One we learn to hide our fear and pain? So then, in a perfect world, we would try to model fear and pain for our babes, but not anger?

I know this is incredibly esoteric, but I really am curious about the ideal.

Because if you didn't know it already, momcat and I were sisters at birth, b4 fate ripped us apart, and I, too, am a perfectionist!

Oh, and have I mentioned that I'm supposed to be moderating this week but haven't read the section yet? So you all have an extra night to read "Breathing" and I'll get back to ya tomorrow.

Breathe amongst ya-selves . . .
El
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#20 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 10:40 PM
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I'm going to jump in here if you all don't mind. I would love to learn to be a more mindful parent/wife/friend.

Although I think I do well most of the time concerning Kailey's feelings, I have so much to learn regarding MY emotions

Hope you'll let me join. Thanks.
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#21 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 10:44 PM
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I'll have to disagree with you a little here Breathe, but please offer insight.

I don't think all anger is masked fear or hurt.

When I feel angry that my connection keeps getting lost, I'm not fearful of anything, or maybe I am fearful I'll miss something on MDC? For me it's true anger, but now that I sit and write that, perhaps there is something UNDER the anger....
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#22 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 10:55 PM
 
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Hee, hee . . . Welcome, DiaperDiva! We would be honored to have you join us!

And yes, the ever-present, ever-patient, ever-probing Gary Zukov would say that maybe you're afraid that if you can't post, you'll get left out of the discussion, which might lead to you feeling isolated. Food for thought!

Can we think of other examples where anger is just anger?
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#23 of 207 Old 02-02-2003, 11:48 PM
 
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well refering back to my original post about anger being fear, we could narrow it down to the 5 or 6 basic fears i mentioned...

in this case, the potential isolation would be rejection. OR, it could be fear of failure (of making the computer doing what is it supposed to?)

not to say they aren't or are rejecting us, and many times we set up our own fears to make it a reality.

it's all about owning our power, and not allowing people or things hurt us. that we have a choice in how we respond emotionally.

and hey, it's a concept. something i'll be working on for the rest of my life to be sure....

while i think i'd have to be Jesus to master that concept, bearing it in mind makes the little things seem less, and the bigger things seem smaller.
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#24 of 207 Old 02-03-2003, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
it's all about owning our power, and not allowing people or things hurt us.
This is true in so much of my life. I would love to get past this.

I see that I get angry(frustrated) when things don't go as planned, if someone throws a wrench into my day, and many other instances.

How can I dig past this outer emotional crust into whats really bothering me and fix it?

BTW, I hope to be getting this book soon!

PS~ its ont the message board, just the computer connection in general LOL!
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#25 of 207 Old 02-03-2003, 11:23 AM
 
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I thought about this a lot before writing this post, because I want to be sure I'm being as honest with myself as possible here, but it is actually pretty rare that I get angry. It's not that I swallow the anger, or that I lash out in other ways, I think it's mostly that I know I have serious issues with fear and control, and I almost always figure that one of the two is at the root of my emotion at the time.

For instance: ds has been playing with the bottom kitchen drawer lately. It contains pots and pans and - his favorite! - lids to those pots and pans. I bought some of those baby-proofing drawer latches because I didn't want him to hurt himself (we have been trying to redirect him to a DIFFERENT low drawer, this one with lids from Tofutti containers, etc, but you know how it goes...). Anyhow, dh and I were arguing about putting the latch on the drawers (dh didn't want them there because it would "ruin" the drawer) and then - you guessed it! - ds slammed his finger between a couple of pots and I got really angry - at myself for not insisting that we put the latches on, and at dh for not wanting to do so.

But, I realized almost instantly, it wasn't about being angry, it was about my sense of losing control. I could not control ds's actions enough to prevent it from happening (dh was in the kitchen with him, so I thought all was well), I could not control dh's parenting style and choice not to redirect ds, and I could not force dh to allow me to put the latches on the drawer. So I seethed for about five seconds as I ran to pick up ds, then tried to figure out what to do next. But that anger was a pretty unusual reaction from me, so I know it must have been a big emotion.

What I usually feel is frustration - and there, again, it's usually about not being in control of a situation (see El's neighbor kids and the car - I used to get totally frustrated about our next-door neighbor's dog, who would invariably be let out to bark every night when I was trying to get ds down to sleep).

So, I think that ideally, we should at least be able to recognize what is underneath the anger and name the demon (still stuck on that sermon - naming the demon was thought to give one power over it). Does this make sense?
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#26 of 207 Old 02-03-2003, 01:46 PM
 
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totally made sense! your insight on that is amazing to me. i have to work so hard to get beneath my anger.

i just pulled out my book from my meditation class to recall the major fears and it said a person usually has 5 or 6 fears of their own and the most common are:

rejection
abandonment
intimacy
failure
success
illness
death

some other fears that aren't as common, but near the top of the list were:

commitment
addictions
power
powerlessness
and poverty

my dd did a report on phobias, and the list of documented phobias could have rivaled a unabridged dictionary, so the possibilities are endless, but these evidently dominate.

just thought it interesting. your sense of losing control i think many would relate to. i know i do for myself which i related to the powerlessness.

i don't think it is to say that people should never be angry because in certain situations, anger is a healthy response to protect yourself or others. (thinking of some kind of physical threat to yourself or your family).

but i do think it relates to mindfulness, especially for the everyday events that can set most people off when a deeper insight is possible.
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#27 of 207 Old 02-04-2003, 01:16 AM
 
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Hmmm . . . not feeling very inspired by the Breathing chapter . . . and I like this anger discussion more anyway, so please proceed.
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#28 of 207 Old 02-04-2003, 01:40 PM
 
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me again.

read the breathing chapter again last night and it suddenly hit me how this might help.

talking about how busy our minds are, and how many thoughts pass without even realizing it, the breathing is keeping us in body instead of in our heads.

i like that it is a tool to help us "practice" mindfulness besides meditation which i only do once a day. but as the books says, it is is simple but not always easy. it's a matter of remembering to do it!

so a mindful moment:

yesterday coming home from my afternoon work out of the home, i told myself that i would not see anything buy my ds who would be happy to see me too. it isn't easy for me to walk in the house and not start making a mental list of the tasks needing to be done before bed and immediately want to finish them- which is pulling me out of the moment and into my head and a "as soon as i get this done, THEN i can relax..." kind of thinking.

it was easier than i thought. when i had "seen" my ds until we were looking for something to do together, we were suddenly tacking the chores together in a way that made it feel like were still playing together.

so in the end, i accomplished all that i wanted, but no one or thing really had to be put off!

and i wasn't being afraid of failing at completing my tasks, and more important i wasn't being afraid of not spending quality time with my ds- which usually is a fear that i am struggling with, which in turn causes me to either fail at one or both of them. make sense?

anyone else have a mindful moment success story of the day or week?

am i talking too much? just kidding.
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#29 of 207 Old 02-04-2003, 05:09 PM
 
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[walks into the room] "there you all are"

I was waiting for the ezboard to begin. I like the idea of dissecting our anger and I would say that rejection, fear and powerlessness are most of my triggers. I don't know if there is anger outside of these, which someone questioned, but think that the fears themselves have a lot to tell us (rather than just being in our head) and that we need to think how to respond to them.

so as momcat mentioned I have some moments of anger where I'm just feeling a lack of control about how dh is handling Finn. That's something to just let go as I need to honor dh's sovereignty to make his own parenting decisions (tho I do lobby a bit). I also have a lot of anger about this potential war, which might be a fear of powerlessness pr the fear of injustice or senseless death, but that's a fear to listen to and to act upon. It's an example where I feel the sovereignty of many is at risk. So there's some complicated calculus that distinguishes the two, no?

[walks out of the room in deeper thought]

angie

Angie, Mama to Finn (6/01) and Theo (4/05)
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#30 of 207 Old 02-04-2003, 06:20 PM
 
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This is all so powerful!

do you ever notice a connection between when you are angry and "mindlessness"?

here is why I ask - I find that I get the most irritated and consequently angry and punitive with ds when I am not really thinking, but just going through the motions.

For example: Yesterday I was trying to get ds dressed and he was screwing around. I find this to be very irritating because I had an agenda - i was not in the moment - I was in the upcoming moments of things to be done. Then DD, who is 2 months old starts to cry and the panic begins. DS continues to struggle against me, trying to play games - to do anything but sit quietly and get dressed. Things are spiraling and I am ready to start knocking heads because I am not getting what I want. That is when I start getting rougher with ds and yelling.

Later it occurred to me how completely silly and mindless the whole encounter was. I wasn't helping anyone and was only making matters worse.

had I just stopped, breathed - let Tyler know that I needed his cooperation, gone and got the baby, nursed her while talking to ds and then "mindfully" set out to help ds get dressed - all could have gone on smoothly.

I have really focussed on stopping when I start to feel out of control, fearful, angry, whatever and just ask myself - "what do I need and what does he need?"

So powerful!

And about anger - there are times that I am angry and it is pure anger - and I'm sure that it can be traced back to a fear of some sort - but sometimes it is just about the injustice of life - like when I hear about child abuse.
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