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#121 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 09:38 PM
 
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I don't want to derail the thread but the first link in my signature explains why adoption is no good and what the alternatives are.

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#122 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 10:28 PM
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Can you explain this a bit more? It honestly never occurred to me that someone would be anti adoption and I am really interested in hearing more about what alternatives you think would be better.
Well I'm not the pp you're referring to, but I'll answer anyway. I support adoption for orphans, or kids in foster care whose parents are completely incapable of taking care of them.

But I'm completely against the adoption of children who have parents who may just be young, single, and/or poor. I think there should be a much larger support network (job training, daycare, etc.) for those parents, so they don't feel like they have to give their children up to people who have more money (which is usually the way domestic infant adoption works in America).

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#123 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 10:32 PM
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The idea that adoption should not be an option is just offensive to anyone that has either adopted or been adopted.
This is completely akin to telling someone who's anti-abortion, "Well, I've had one so I'm offended that you're against them!"

You probably have more money and education than the birth mother whose baby you adopted. Anyone who says that adoption isn't about socio-economic status is kidding themselves.

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#124 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 10:39 PM
 
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Well I'm not the pp you're referring to, but I'll answer anyway. I support adoption for orphans, or kids in foster care whose parents are completely incapable of taking care of them.

But I'm completely against the adoption of children who have parents who may just be young, single, and/or poor. I think there should be a much larger support network (job training, daycare, etc.) for those parents, so they don't feel like they have to give their children up to people who have more money (which is usually the way domestic infant adoption works in America).
Okay, interesting. But what about women who get pregnant and just don't want to have a baby, but don't want an abortion? Tough luck for them? Or are there stats on the socio-economic status of most birth mothers who opt for adoption that show the vast majority of them are low income and/or young?
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#125 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 10:41 PM
 
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Well I'm not the pp you're referring to, but I'll answer anyway. I support adoption for orphans, or kids in foster care whose parents are completely incapable of taking care of them.

But I'm completely against the adoption of children who have parents who may just be young, single, and/or poor. I think there should be a much larger support network (job training, daycare, etc.) for those parents, so they don't feel like they have to give their children up to people who have more money (which is usually the way domestic infant adoption works in America).
In a way I can see someone being against adoption with these parameters- but I can't imagine just flat out saying, I oppose adoption. The fact is, there are some young, single, poor women who should NOT be mothers. There are some old, married, rich women who should not be mothers. If those women KNOW that someone else would be better suited to raise their babies, then I don't understand how anyone could be opposed.

I do understand & agree with your points about the support systems etc. I do not agree with anyone being forced or coerced into giving up her child.

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This is completely akin to telling someone who's anti-abortion, "Well, I've had one so I'm offended that you're against them!"

You probably have more money and education than the birth mother whose baby you adopted. Anyone who says that adoption isn't about socio-economic status is kidding themselves.

I don't think this is the same at all... abortion & adoption are two different things. I am prolife, but not rabidly so... I believe that abortion stops a potential life. With adoption, that is a LIFE. The baby is here, born, flesh & blood... in a way, I think it is more dangerous to be anti adoption, in this extreme manner, than it is to be anti abortion. Adoption in every case is not a socio-economic issue, & even if it is, being "against" it, & making women feel like it is a bad choice, will just bring babies into the world to be raised by women who are, for whatever reason, ill-equipped to be mothers...
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#126 of 199 Old 01-25-2008, 10:52 PM
 
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But what about women who get pregnant and just don't want to have a baby, but don't want an abortion?
No one in the anti-adoption movement believes in forcing women to raise their children if they are unwilling to do so. We do believe that the majority of mothers would choose to keep their babies if given adequate support/not fed the "adoption is a loving choice" mantra -- we also know that many fathers are unfairly pushed out of the picture when they would be willing to take over custody.

Beyond that, for the children who cannot be raised by their parents for whatever reason, we support permanent legal guardianship . . . giving the child a stable, loving home without a false birth certificate, sealed records, and a "new" identity, and allowing for contact between the child and his/her family.

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#127 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 07:03 AM
 
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No one in the anti-adoption movement believes in forcing women to raise their children if they are unwilling to do so. We do believe that the majority of mothers would choose to keep their babies if given adequate support/not fed the "adoption is a loving choice" mantra -- we also know that many fathers are unfairly pushed out of the picture when they would be willing to take over custody.

Beyond that, for the children who cannot be raised by their parents for whatever reason, we support permanent legal guardianship . . . giving the child a stable, loving home without a false birth certificate, sealed records, and a "new" identity, and allowing for contact between the child and his/her family.
I like the idea of "permanent legal guardianship" rather than adoption, personally. I don't ever agree with giving the child a new birth certificate and a new identity, and I think that closed adoptions should be illegal and records should always be open. I don't know...it's tough road to go down. On the one hand, I want women who cannot have children to be able to be mothers (and children who need homes to be able to have them), but on the other hand, I believe in preserving the biological family.

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#128 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 01:02 PM
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I don't think this is the same at all... abortion & adoption are two different things. I am prolife, but not rabidly so... I believe that abortion stops a potential life. With adoption, that is a LIFE. The baby is here, born, flesh & blood... in a way, I think it is more dangerous to be anti adoption, in this extreme manner, than it is to be anti abortion. Adoption in every case is not a socio-economic issue, & even if it is, being "against" it, & making women feel like it is a bad choice, will just bring babies into the world to be raised by women who are, for whatever reason, ill-equipped to be mothers...


I didn't say that the two issues--abortion and adoption--were the same. My point was that one's personal experience with something doesn't preclude others from being against that something.

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#129 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 01:04 PM
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No one in the anti-adoption movement believes in forcing women to raise their children if they are unwilling to do so. We do believe that the majority of mothers would choose to keep their babies if given adequate support/not fed the "adoption is a loving choice" mantra -- we also know that many fathers are unfairly pushed out of the picture when they would be willing to take over custody.
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#130 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 01:26 PM
 
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i'm going to see this today. looking forward to it. so i'll have to come back and read through this thread when i'm done.
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#131 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 01:45 PM
 
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I didn't say that the two issues--abortion and adoption--were the same. My point was that one's personal experience with something doesn't preclude others from being against that something.
Ok, I misunderstood. You said it was "completely akin..."


I still don't understand it though.
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#132 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 04:49 PM
 
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Beyond that, for the children who cannot be raised by their parents for whatever reason, we support permanent legal guardianship . . . giving the child a stable, loving home without a false birth certificate, sealed records, and a "new" identity, and allowing for contact between the child and his/her family.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Not having any experience with adoption, I never really thought about it all that much, but YES, it does seem creepy to try to hide it or act like it never happened. Most (maybe all?) adoptees are going to find out about it eventually, so why not be open about it from the beginning?
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#133 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 10:39 PM
 
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This is completely akin to telling someone who's anti-abortion, "Well, I've had one so I'm offended that you're against them!"

You probably have more money and education than the birth mother whose baby you adopted. Anyone who says that adoption isn't about socio-economic status is kidding themselves.
right on, A&A!

Jessy~ you are giving me a lot of food for thought. the current industry is a whole lot of nasty things...

...don't want to violate the UA

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#134 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 11:13 PM
 
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I do not think adoption is ever appropriate or necessary.
What if a person raised in a permanent legal guardian situation wanted their guardians to adopt them? Shouldn't that be left up to the potential adoptee? I am anti-adoption industry but I think when we take the option away completely we may be inadvertently harming some people who wish to become more than a "ward". The anti-adoption movement seems to often completely disregard the very idea that anyone could ever be happy in a non-biological family situation. Which is funny to me, considering that I was raised in my biological family but choose to spend Christmas and Mother's Day with, and named my daughter after, people who I consider family though I am not genetically related to them. It does happen.

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I guess I just didn't take the movie as some big statement of any kind of ideal. I just saw it as a story about this girl who got pregnant and decide to have it and put it up for adoption, and how those events led to her best friend becoming her boyfriend. No preaching that this is what anyone should or should not do. Just a story.
That's one way of looking at it, and you may well be right. I think it's not that simple, when you're making a movie about a serious issue- even if it's billed as a comedy. I guess I don't feel that teenaged parents need yet another message from the media that the right, or normal, or expected choice to make is to not raise their baby. It's sort of taking the easy way out of a controversial topic, because you're risking money to begin with on a movie of this nature, and then you're double risking if you're showing an ending that isn't really kosher in our society, which is teenaged parents keeping their baby and doing the best they can, because that's considered by many to be a dangerous implicit endorsement of teenaged parenting.

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#135 of 199 Old 01-26-2008, 11:49 PM
 
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What if a person raised in a permanent legal guardian situation wanted their guardians to adopt them? Shouldn't that be left up to the potential adoptee? I am anti-adoption industry but I think when we take the option away completely we may be inadvertently harming some people who wish to become more than a "ward". The anti-adoption movement seems to often completely disregard the very idea that anyone could ever be happy in a non-biological family situation. Which is funny to me, considering that I was raised in my biological family but choose to spend Christmas and Mother's Day with, and named my daughter after, people who I consider family though I am not genetically related to them. It does happen.

re; the movie,


That's one way of looking at it, and you may well be right. I think it's not that simple, when you're making a movie about a serious issue- even if it's billed as a comedy. I guess I don't feel that teenaged parents need yet another message from the media that the right, or normal, or expected choice to make is to not raise their baby. It's sort of taking the easy way out of a controversial topic, because you're risking money to begin with on a movie of this nature, and then you're double risking if you're showing an ending that isn't really kosher in our society, which is teenaged parents keeping their baby and doing the best they can, because that's considered by many to be a dangerous implicit endorsement of teenaged parenting.
great post all around.

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#136 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 02:46 AM
 
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What if a person raised in a permanent legal guardian situation wanted their guardians to adopt them? Shouldn't that be left up to the potential adoptee?
I don't think the law has any right to create fictional documents about people's lives. If someone is raised by guardians and chooses to call them mom and dad at some point -- have at it. I've no desire to legislate that. But ethically, the government should not be able to issue birth certificates naming a "mother" and "father" who have no genetic ties to the child that was born, even if the adult child wants one.

I do think that adults should be able to appoint their own caretakers/people capable of making medical and other decisions on their behalf rather than that falling on their genetic next of kin . . . if that's what your concern is.

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#137 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 03:27 AM
 
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I don't think the law has any right to create fictional documents about people's lives. If someone is raised by guardians and chooses to call them mom and dad at some point -- have at it. I've no desire to legislate that. But ethically, the government should not be able to issue birth certificates naming a "mother" and "father" who have no genetic ties to the child that was born, even if the adult child wants one.

I do think that adults should be able to appoint their own caretakers/people capable of making medical and other decisions on their behalf rather than that falling on their genetic next of kin . . . if that's what your concern is.

i agree with all this. i think the only place where we differ is that i think that should be what is legally called "adoption" (so i identify myself as pro adoption reform rather than anti-adoption). it is very sad that the government falsifies documents (especially about something as crucial as someone's birth records!).

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#138 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 10:08 AM
 
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completely enjoyed this movie, loved the music. how awesome that it's a mdc mama! you rock, kimya.
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#139 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 10:40 AM
 
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I feel like teens should be encouraged to keep their babies, not give them up-although I do definitely support the choice of a teen who knows all her options and gives up her baby because she wants to, not because she has to. I feel like there should be more programs out to help teens keep their babies, not programs encouraging adoption. I don't have a problem with adoption when it is necessary, but I think biological families should always be kept together whenever possible, even if it means they will have some help from social programs and welfare.

FWIW I am NOT anti-adoption, just so you know, and my opinions aren't meant to attack adoptive parents or adoptive mothers. Adoption is necessary in some cases.
As an adoptive mama, I wanted to say . There are many of us who have built our families through adoption AND are trying to work to make adoption less prevalent because birth families SHOULD stay together when at all possible. Teenagers can and do make excellent parents, so do poor people, people with dissabilities etc. None of these are reasons to coerce mothers into separating from their children.

The adoption business is rife with corruption, but there are many adoptive parents trying to help rectify that. And yes I know, many who aren't.


I haven't even seen the movie yet. : Kids have been sick for what seems like a month!:
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#140 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 10:41 AM
 
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I really liked this movie.

I LOVED the music!! OMG, that it's an MDC mama makes it even better!

As an adoptee (who saw this on my birthday--what was I thinking?!), it was definitely triggering. I particularly felt conflicted about her postpartum scene riding the bike, all care-free. That felt glamorizing and it was kind of a punch in the stomach to me.

But, like almost everything in this movie, I loved that each character was sympathetic in some way. I could totally relate to everyone--even when I thought they were behaving badly.

And, man, I did not see the Jason Bateman thing coming at all! I kept thinking, "OK, I'm uncomfortable with this hanging out and fear of the wife coming home.........but, he's soooo not creepy, so maybe it's just me........." and then WHAM!

But, you know, I think both those parents kind of preyed on her. Maybe "prey" is too strong a word. Something, though....like, she just didn't stand chance. They were definitely not on equal ground, and she had something (or represented something) that they both wanted--in different ways, you know.

Oh, and I loved the part where she's kissing the boyfriend and the "cool boy" looks all uncomfortable! And the best friend was ADORABLE!
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#141 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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No one in the anti-adoption movement believes in forcing women to raise their children if they are unwilling to do so. We do believe that the majority of mothers would choose to keep their babies if given adequate support/not fed the "adoption is a loving choice" mantra -- we also know that many fathers are unfairly pushed out of the picture when they would be willing to take over custody.

Beyond that, for the children who cannot be raised by their parents for whatever reason, we support permanent legal guardianship . . . giving the child a stable, loving home without a false birth certificate, sealed records, and a "new" identity, and allowing for contact between the child and his/her family.
I agree that the adoption industry MUST be changed (fake birth certificates, what a bunch of crap!). Beyond that I think we agree on very little on this topic. I don't agree that all adoptions are unnecessary, and I am very glad that my two kids will not be raised in the Kazakh orphanage system. I wish more kids could get out of those (and Russian and Romanian and ANY orphanage system)

I think that when people are honest and when open adoption is involved, it can be a good thing. My kids have a heartbreaking start to life and a division from their first-moms which will always be a wound in their hearts. But we have always been honest about who they are and where they came from. And that includes a relationship with their first mothers. Adoption is a deep and primal wound (to steal a title from a book) but it doesn't mean adoptees can't have a happy, beautiful life in a family they are deeply loved by.
This is my children's life path, they did not choose it, it was chosen for them, much like all kids path are chosen for them by adults they don't know (think war, institutional poverty, racism, even divorce), but I hope to stand with them and help them face it with dignity, love and grace. It's all I can do.
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#142 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 03:51 PM
 
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I have been dying to see Juno and finally did. I absolutely loved it. I did cry at the end, and as a mom, I can't help but wonder how she'll feel in a few years, yk? (Even if she's a fake character. ) But I really loved the movie.

I absolutely love the soundtrack too. Everyone has raved about it so much that I bought it before even seeing the movie. I love, love, love the music! I want to get all Kimya's albums now (and how awesome that she--you!--are here!).
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#143 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 03:59 PM
 
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this reminds me, and it's sort of random- despite all the Dr. Phil hatred on mdc, and believe me, I'm not a fan either- there was a family with a pregnant teen and the parents were pressuring her very inappropriately to relenquish her baby for adoption. She didn't want to, and thank God, Dr. Phil stood up for the girl and told her parents that it was her baby and her decision. And here, this kind of behavior from parents is being encouraged through the media when even a crackpot tv personality knows better.

Then he ruined everything by saying it was giving permission for her to have sex if they "let" her go on birth control after the baby was born.

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#144 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 07:49 PM
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this reminds me, and it's sort of random- despite all the Dr. Phil hatred on mdc, and believe me, I'm not a fan either- there was a family with a pregnant teen and the parents were pressuring her very inappropriately to relenquish her baby for adoption. She didn't want to, and thank God, Dr. Phil stood up for the girl and told her parents that it was her baby and her decision. And here, this kind of behavior from parents is being encouraged through the media when even a crackpot tv personality knows better.
Good for him! (At least on this part.)

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#145 of 199 Old 01-27-2008, 11:58 PM
 
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I had mixed feelings about this movie. I'd read so many fantastic reviews my expectations were sky-high, and I felt like it was missing something. Maybe the screenwriter needed a few 'Show, don't tell' lessons. We heard Juno talking about her classmates ostracising her, but we never saw it; about her physical discomforts, but there were only a few glimpses of those (though the urn scene was great); about how wonderful Paulie Bleeker was, although we never really saw him do a lot to justify that statement. Even her apparent obsession with music was mostly revealed in dialogue rather than shown. It made the movie feel slightly empty.

That said, I thought some of the writing was masterful. Jason Bateman's character was perfect--likeable but slightly creepy, and ultimately jerky to the point of wanting to slap him a good one (was that just me?). Jennifer Garner's character was likewise fantastic--she was used equally deftly for comedy and pathos, and her final scene actually had me sobbing (for a variety of reasons).

I admit being a little surprised at Juno's eventual decision (spoiler?). I'm not sure what I expected to happen, but the result still shocked me just a little. In terms of the movie, I think it worked fantastically--bittersweet and full of possibilities, but with some closure. In terms of real life... well, who knows? I hope she and Vanessa kept in touch, at least. I did tear up about Paulie's decision though (spoiler allusion again)--that seemed very 'off' to me, somehow.

Oh, and she was lying flat on her back for labour?? THAT irked me! I would've thought Juno of all people would have done some research and lashed out at the doctors for making her lie down--she didn't seem the type to be a pawn of the medical system. But hey, I guess it wasn't written as an MDC advert, stuff happens.

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#146 of 199 Old 01-28-2008, 04:36 AM
 
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I want to be Juno in my next life as a teenager (sans the pregnancy)
I said that as I was walking out! I was like "I want to be Juno!"

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I have not seen the movie but I've been told the baby is born, umm, circumcised.
I didn't notice.

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I don't get all this not supporting adoption stuff. People would probably have supported her if she'd had an abortion. It's her "choice," right? Juno chose adoption.


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Originally Posted by mamameg View Post
You know though... I took that whole scene as kind of tongue in cheek and purposefully over the top, kind of like a caricature of what most parent's FIRST reaction would probably be like. (After all, movie is billed as a comedy) But as the situation progressed, they were very kind, supportive and compassionate, I thought.

Not saying you shouldn't feel however you feel about it. I just interpreted it very differently.
I interpreted it the same way you did. I found that scene hilarious, everyone in the theater was cracking up, actually.

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Originally Posted by Jessy1019 View Post
I do not think adoption is ever appropriate or necessary. There are better ways to support a child who cannot be raised by his or her family.
Like what?

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Originally Posted by bri276 View Post
this reminds me, and it's sort of random- despite all the Dr. Phil hatred on mdc, and believe me, I'm not a fan either- there was a family with a pregnant teen and the parents were pressuring her very inappropriately to relenquish her baby for adoption. She didn't want to, and thank God, Dr. Phil stood up for the girl and told her parents that it was her baby and her decision. And here, this kind of behavior from parents is being encouraged through the media when even a crackpot tv personality knows better.

Then he ruined everything by saying it was giving permission for her to have sex if they "let" her go on birth control after the baby was born.
I remember them. That family was so messed up, and I don't think anything got accomplished with them.

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Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Oh, and she was lying flat on her back for labour?? THAT irked me!
Me too

Newly single, chronically sleep deprived mama to my little wild thang wild.gif, born 11/17/12 

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#147 of 199 Old 01-28-2008, 05:34 AM
 
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I didn't know anything about this movie, other than a vague sense that it was an Indie Film. But a gf called and asked me if I wanted to go see it with her. I had no expectations of it, I didn't even know that she was preggers in it, but I really enjoyed it. I thought it was great, that the characters were very honest and real. I liked it all round..
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#148 of 199 Old 01-28-2008, 01:42 PM
 
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Dh and I saw this movie this weekend and loved it. I thought it was well written and certain parts were hilarious.
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#149 of 199 Old 01-29-2008, 09:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
Oh, and she was lying flat on her back for labour?? THAT irked me! I would've thought Juno of all people would have done some research and lashed out at the doctors for making her lie down--she didn't seem the type to be a pawn of the medical system. But hey, I guess it wasn't written as an MDC advert, stuff happens.
I fought so hard to try to get some of the super mainstream stuff crunchified. Especially the shout out to "What to Expect..." when Vanessa is painting. This was just after reading the screenplay. Jason Reitman told me he fully understood where I was coming from but told me it just wouldn't make sense if Vanessa had been reading Ina May or Penny Simkin. I argued that I send those books to my more mainstream friends all the time and she could have been gifted it. And I said that maybe she could have just said "in the book I am reading" instead of name dropping that awful series. And he told me that her character TOTALLY would be reading "What to Expect..." and he's pretty much right (sadly).

And Juno, with no childbirth education, would most likely be on her back. I wish these things had been different. But since they are not I just see them as reminders of how much I hate the way birth is handled most of the time, in America.

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#150 of 199 Old 01-29-2008, 04:20 PM
 
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I fought so hard to try to get some of the super mainstream stuff crunchified. Especially the shout out to "What to Expect..." when Vanessa is painting. This was just after reading the screenplay. Jason Reitman told me he fully understood where I was coming from but told me it just wouldn't make sense if Vanessa had been reading Ina May or Penny Simkin. I argued that I send those books to my more mainstream friends all the time and she could have been gifted it. And I said that maybe she could have just said "in the book I am reading" instead of name dropping that awful series. And he told me that her character TOTALLY would be reading "What to Expect..." and he's pretty much right (sadly).

And Juno, with no childbirth education, would most likely be on her back. I wish these things had been different. But since they are not I just see them as reminders of how much I hate the way birth is handled most of the time, in America.
LOL! Good for you. He was right, though... Vanessa is exactly the kind of woman who'd be devouring 'What to Expect'. I can't really imagine her slinging and cosleeping and ECing either...

Although I must spend WAY too much time on MDC, because (spoiler!) I actually caught myself thinking at the end of the film 'Awww, are we going to see her breastfeeding, did she relactate?', before I realised just how far-fetched that really was and burst out giggling. Oops.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

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