Bowling for Columbine - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-31-2003, 08:57 PM
 
IslandMamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 1,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Kanga mom, I am having a really hard time reading your responses here (and on other threads, too.) I'm STUNNED that you find Heston's presence in Littleton, WITH the NRA, as even marginally acceptable. (Although I shouldn't be considering that you find global warming to be a farce, too.....)

There were children gunned down in cold blood, and the very organization that makes it possible to obtain a gun so easily in this country shows up and offers their condolences? Oh, Please. How freakin' heartfelt.

That'd be like if your child is accidentally poisoned, and you receive a letter of condolence from the company and a coupon for a discount on their next product...

And as far as Michael Moore editing and being selective in what he chooses to view, well, there is NOTHING unusual about that-- all you need to do is watch CNN or FOX "news" and you'll find more spin and editing in 10 minutes than was in all of BFC.
IslandMamma is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-03-2003, 08:11 AM
 
SpiralWoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: middle of the mid-south
Posts: 2,480
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
ah, more anti-Mooreism in this thread.

ok, let's all follow along... Editing is a normal part of film-making. Film-making (esp. documentary) is all about POV. That's point-of-view, as in, the film-makers. The film-maker? You know, the person who's views are being presented?? So, yes, you might not agree with or enjoy Michael Moore's POV. Super.

But to say that it is somehow dishonest? No, sorry. Totally not dishonest. Totally ok to include points that present your POV. Totally ok to edit your own f'n movie.

Haters, keep on hating.
SpiralWoman is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:41 AM
 
Wendydagny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by CeraMae
I stand corrected. This man obviously knows how to read signs that aren't shown on the tape and the existence of at leat 2 "probably" staged scenes.
I've seen the sign on the airplane. It's at the Air Force Academy, and it does not say anything even close to what MM says it does.
Wendydagny is offline  
Old 11-03-2003, 01:40 PM
 
Kanga Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]"

These people had already scheduled their members' meeting, bought their tickets, paid for their reservations, blocked out the time in their schedules, taken the time off from work, reserved the location- this is an event that was planned probably a year in advance. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to change the location at the last minute. It's an impossible expectation. There was no time to notify all members not to come, no time to plan another location, no way for everybody to cancel their flights without losing the cost of their plane tickets. I think it was foolish of the Mayor and the media to make a big deal about it.

Fact: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy. Moore claims that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."

The plaque, which anybody can read if they go to the AFA, actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972."

Fact- It is _not_ acceptable to edit a documentary to the point that you create a speech that was never delivered, place it in the wrong context, and otherwise misrepresent what was said. That _is_ dishonesty.

I am baffled that it's somehow not hateful to misrepresent the facts, but it _is_ hateful to point out where Michael Moore deviated from the truth. Deviating from the truth is called lying. I don't know why anybody would want to defend it.

If this sort of editing is okay, then I must point out again that by the same standard, I should be able to edit away whatever anybody else says. For example, Cera Mae said:

"I'm not trying to get into a debate here, but I think that the fact he edited speeches does not make his point any less valid. I don't see how that makes him a liar or a falsifier. "

I should be able to take what she actually said above, and edit it, and quote Cera Mae as saying, "I'm trying to get into a debate. He edited speeches. That makes him a liar and a falsifier."

By the standards I have seen here, that should be okay with y'all. You would consider that simply editing. It wouldn't be dishonest, and nobody would have a problem with it.

All those words are Cera Mae's words. She actually said them. I didn't add a single word, I just left a whole bunch out, so it's okay, because after all, it's all about my Point of View, so what she actually said doesn't matter. I'm editing, so I can create whatever I want.

I could also go find some other post she's made in a totally different discussion and combine that other post with this one to create an entirely new post, and then I can call it hers. It's only editing, after all, and from what I'm reading here, there's nothing wrong with that, and it would be hateful of anybody to point out that this would be a dishonest representation of what Cera Mae actually said.

I'm serious, I cannot see a single difference between what Michael Moore did and my example above. Can somebody explain to me why this would be different?

To me it's dishonesty and lack of integrity. I wouldn't treat another person's words, even somebody I disagreed with, which such disregard for the truth. I'm trying to understand what kind of thinking makes it okay.

Kanga
Kanga Mom is offline  
Old 11-04-2003, 02:48 PM
 
CeraMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I'm serious, I cannot see a single difference between what Michael Moore did and my example above. Can somebody explain to me why this would be different?
I'm surprised that you can't see a difference between completely misquoting someone and editing. Editing means(according to the American Heritage Dictionary), "to put together the component parts of (a film, for example) by cutting, combining and splicing." It would be different because you did not "edit" what I said, you *misquoted*. Misquote means, "to quote incorrectly." You switched my words around to say something entirely different, rather than taking a long drawn-out speech of mine and consolidating it by emphasizing key points and using ... to show that you had left something out.
Michael Moore did not take individual words out of heston's speech and switch them around to make him say "I like ice cream." He *consolidated* a 20 minute speech about why Heston was asked not to come and came anyway because it was his right as an american by *highlighting* a few sentences which summarized his entire speech. I have looked at the speech side-by-side that you provided a link to and I encourage everyone else to do so. If moore had room in his film to include the entire speech it would not have sounded any better.
In fact, Heston "deviated from the truth" in his own speech, while paraphrasing the Mayor's request that he cancel the NRA convention.
Quote:
I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this and said don't come here, we don't want you here.
Hmmm...I wonder if Webb really sent him a memo that said,"Hey Charlie. Don't come here, we don't want you here. signed Mayor Webb" According to the Denver Post "In a nice way he (Webb) asked the National Rifle Association to cancel their Annual Meeting now scheduled for Denver next week. He asked in his statement that the NRA do this out of respect for the pain and suffering felt by his people in the Denver-Metro community. They responded that they would not cancel but instead they would limit their meeting to one day. Reports indicate that the Denver Business Community have joined Mayor Webb's request. Still, the NRA seems determined to go to Denver."
Quote:
"Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]"
4 million members were not coming to Colorado. In Heston's own words, "This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that."
There was "no way to change location"? Where there is a will there is a way. They somehow managed to notify everyone coming that they wouldn't hold their festivities, yet they had no way of notifying them of a change of location? I find that hard to believe. Another event was pre-planned and had pre-sold tickets and cancelled at the last minute. Marilyn Manson. And I think that is commendable considering that the boys of Columbine didn't use his CD to stab anyone. Manson didn't pretend like it was impossible for people to find out about the cancelled show. I mean, he didn't even know the names and addresses of ticketholders in the first place, yet somehow on the day of the concert no one was wasting away in line, starving and perplexed, over a show that wasn't going to happen.
You can do amazing things with media, like let 4,000,000 people know that a bunch of kids got killed and out of respect a gun convention would be changed. Was corporate law going to send Charlton Heston and company to "Corporate Prison" if he had changed the date and/or location of his festivities? Obviously many people were going to be inconvenienced in the first place by the cancellation of festivities. In his own words, "Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home." That doesnt sound like a bunch of (refundable) hotel rooms to me....
Quote:
Fact: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy. Moore claims that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."
The plaque, which anybody can read if they go to the AFA, actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972."
If you want to throw everyone who uses a thesaurus into Ethics Jail for lying, falsifying, dishonesty, and lack of integrity... Please include everyone who has ever paraphrased something wrongly. Like a few days ago when you said, "Off hand, Moore lies about what's on a sign in front of an airplane-He says something about 'this sign celebrates killed Viet Namese people on Christmas Day.' That isn't even close to what it says. Funny how he didn't actually show you the sign to read yourself, isn't it?"
:LOL
That is funny!! What's funny is that it comes VERY close to it. Linebacker II is not a football reference, it was the biggest aerial blitz of the Vietnam War. You can read all about it here:
http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/day1.htm
In short, Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. I'm no doctor, but last I heard, dropping bombs on people tends to kill them. And I haven't heard of a bomb yet that can tell the difference between men, women, and children.

What's next?? Something about how the Holocost didn't happen???

If there was something wrong with the way Moore portrayed the NRA, they would have sued him by now for slander.
CeraMae is offline  
Old 11-04-2003, 05:02 PM
 
IslandMamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 1,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great post, CeraMae. ITA.

You said it all very eloquently.
IslandMamma is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 01:23 AM
 
Moss's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't understand why some people become so defensive about this movie. We have a HUGE problem here with gun violence. The correlations b/w American Imperialism, overworked and underpaid parents, and meanwhile, the rich getting richer etc... is a known fact.... The killing has got to stop period. We need to learn that the moves we make as a nation rub off on the children. Our right to bear Armaments is running out of time..... As a nation, and as individuals. The NRA is a terrorrist oraganization.
Moss's Mommy is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 10:28 AM
Administrator
 
cynthia mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Arabia!
Posts: 38,755
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
While your discussions of right or wrong and honest or dishonest are fine, the personal pointing is getting a bit out of hand. If you have something to address with another member please take it to PM. Don't use each other as examples to make your points.

Let's bring this thread back on track or it will have to be closed.


cynthia mosher is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 01:29 PM
 
Wendydagny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
That is funny!! What's funny is that it comes VERY close to it. Linebacker II is not a football reference, it was the biggest aerial blitz of the Vietnam War. You can read all about it here:
http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/day1.htm
In short, Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. I'm no doctor, but last I heard, dropping bombs on people tends to kill them. And I haven't heard of a bomb yet that can tell the difference between men, women, and children.
Actually what I find funny is how different the quote actually appears when you read the entire plaque, which states:

B-52D Stratofortress. 'Diamond Lil.' Dedicated to the men and women of the Strategic Air Command who flew and maintained the B-52D throughout its 26-year history in the command. Aircraft 55-083, with over 15,000 flying hours, is one of two B-52Ds credited with a confirmed MIG kill during the Vietnam Conflict Flying out of U-Tapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southern Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas Eve, 1972.

It commemorates the airmen who served flying that specific airplane during it's 26 years, not a battle.
Wendydagny is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 01:34 PM
 
Wendydagny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh and here's a good article on the problems with BFC from a less shrill and generally more respected source than Spinsanity:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp
Wendydagny is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 08:44 PM
 
IslandMamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 1,587
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cynthia and others, I am sorry for getting personal. It's true, I was, and I feel extremely passionate about politics and spin, and sometimes that spills over. I am so very very tired and have a lot of sadness about something that recently happened in my family, and I guess maybe I'm not being as careful as usual.

Wendydagny, I read the article, and I just really feel that people should consider the source. NRO (National Review) is an *exceptionally* conservative web site (they promote Rush Limbaugh's book and the "liberal" deck of cards right on that very page!), and I would disagree with most of what the reporter said. I'm not going to hash it out point by point, because I think in the long run people will beileve what they will believe. I just hope no one who has read this thread will be turned off from watching BFC. Let people watch it and make their own judgements.
IslandMamma is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 11:21 PM
 
Moss's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Exactly...It commemorates the men, who shot down the MIG in a battle in an airplane
Moss's Mommy is offline  
Old 11-05-2003, 11:39 PM
 
isleta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In my son's heart
Posts: 1,096
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I find MM very intelligent and articulate. He is not a right-wing conservative at a time when they are dominating politics and mass media. Therefore, he is an easy target for them. This reminds me of that reagan mimi-series. If you like reagan, after it, your still going to like reagan. If you don't think he is a nice human being, after the mni series, you are still going to have the same POV. However, the right has yet again gone after the freedoms we have in this country. This time artistic-with the FCC behind it.

SO , if you liked michael Moore before BFC............................................... ....., ..............................
isleta is offline  
Old 11-06-2003, 04:06 PM
 
Wendydagny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by IslandMamma
Wendydagny, I read the article, and I just really feel that people should consider the source. NRO (National Review) is an *exceptionally* conservative web site (they promote Rush Limbaugh's book and the "liberal" deck of cards right on that very page!), and I would disagree with most of what the reporter said. I'm not going to hash it out point by point, because I think in the long run people will beileve what they will believe. I just hope no one who has read this thread will be turned off from watching BFC. Let people watch it and make their own judgements.
I agree. You do need to consider the source. I posted an article from NRO, because it is one of the more respected conservative organizations-- much more than Spinsanity. But you also need to consider the source of BFC-- Michael Moore is not exactly an independent middle-of-the-road political guy.

I think it's important to look at both sides of everything. I have seen the movie, read criticisms of it (both shrill and not), and read Moore's rebuttals. To dismiss criticisms because they come from a conservative source seems silly, especially if you're taking the words of Moore as gospel.
Wendydagny is offline  
Old 11-06-2003, 04:12 PM
 
Wendydagny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Moss's Mommy
Exactly...It commemorates the men, who shot down the MIG in a battle in an airplane
Actually. No. It commemorates thousands of men and women (admin, support, etc.) who served for 26 years in a specific command, many of whom were drafted btw. One of those men pushed a button and shot down the MIG.
Wendydagny is offline  
Old 11-06-2003, 08:42 PM
 
CeraMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since the comment about the airplane seems to have provoked so much of a discussion.... does anyone know whether that plane being shot down on Xmas eve killed any children? I honestly don't know. I'm wondering it it did kill children specifically or if MM was making a commentary about the mission that day of all planes, not that one in particular.
CeraMae is offline  
Old 11-07-2003, 12:16 AM
 
Moss's Mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dirty South
Posts: 1,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't care who physically pushed the button. It was a collective decision anyway, and I don't know who it killed.... need to do my research, but think of the psychological harm. It's time we lay down our weapons and (as the song goes) STUDY WAR NO MORE
Moss's Mommy is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off