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Old 06-27-2008, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted last week about ds' language. At 22 months he doesn't have any words, has never said mama and has never referred to dh as dada although he does use dada for other things(bye bye).

Anyway, my girl's have been signing ring a round the rosie a lot because one of ds' therapists has been doing it with him. Recently ds has started saying, "atha atha"(for ashes) and the getting louder and louder and not saying the words but using sounds in a sing-songy way that makes it sound exactly like ring a round the rosie.

This seems REALLY strange to me since he isn't using words although he will make sounds like he's saying, "That" when he wants something or "what's that?" although not in a clear way at all. It's just more that he's repeating the tone of the way you'd say it. If that makes sense.

It just seems odd to both dh and I that he would start "singing" melodies of songs and yet sitting there staring blankly at you if you say repeatedly, "mama" and refusing to repeat you. Or saying "Bye bye" over and over again and still he will say "da da".

Anyway it just seems strange and I'm wondering what anyone else thinks!

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:45 PM
 
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DS2 did this when he first started with words - I totally know what you mean. It was like he was just grunting or making other noises but he was using the right number of syllables and the right tone so you got what he meant. He has eventually figured it out mostly. I would just repeat: "that's right, water" or whatever word he was attempting.

Also, it could be that he learns better when things are set to a muscial rhythm. This is how I learn best. I can remember commercial jingles from the 70s but can't remember what I read last night.

Maybe try using nursery rhyme CDs or even the Signing Time DVDs (they're awesome with *lots* of singing!)

Martha
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:07 PM
 
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My ds doesn't talk either and he does sing-songy approximations though. Like "eh-ee-oh?" is where'd she go? when he's looking for his sister. He just started saying dada and meaning it a couple weeks ago. He's still never said mama. I just got him to say the m sound a couple days ago, but he barely repeats it. I've tried and tried to get him to say mama, but he hasn't ever said it.

I agree with Martha, that he could learn better though music. My ds loves signing time and has learned quite a few signs that way. Maybe that will work for your ds.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:41 AM
 
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my son could sing songs way before he could speak words, if that makes sense. That was one of the reasons it was hard to get the doctor to understand that Jayce had a speech delay, because he was able to sing "Twinkle Little Star" in her office.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:15 AM
 
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My dd2 is exactly that way. She imitated my oldest singing a Little Mermaid song yesterday yet if you ask her to say any simple word it's the blank stare.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:47 AM
 
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DD's first words were ones she knew the signs for. Her speech therapist explained that sometimes the word just has to get in, be it a visual cue (sign) or musical accompaniment (which I guess uses a different part of the brain than regular speech). Once the word gets in, it can then come out, verbally. Strange, but seems true for DD.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:52 AM
 
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That is very common. Many children learn to sing before talking. I was babysitting and after I had put the 1 yo to bed, I went past his room a little bit later and he was still awake in his crib, singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - no words, just the tune and sounds sort of like the words.

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Old 06-28-2008, 06:06 AM
 
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Perhaps he is following a gestalt language acquisition pattern? Most children learn small words first, then build up to sentences; some children learn chunks of language first, before they can break it down into the component words.

Mama to sweet, funny Eli 9/05 and snuggly Akash 12/09
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Old 06-28-2008, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PikkuMyy View Post
That is very common. Many children learn to sing before talking. I was babysitting and after I had put the 1 yo to bed, I went past his room a little bit later and he was still awake in his crib, singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - no words, just the tune and sounds sort of like the words.
Is it common in typical children? Because I've heard that it can be a sign of a speech disorder.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:03 PM
 
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Actually, it is much easier for kids to learn language, and use it themselves, when their whole body is involved in the learning system. An emotional connection is also important . When a little one says Mama, independently or on cue, they are usually either responding to your affect and trying to please you or very internally motivated to do so.
Check out this link to the ****** Method. www.millermethod.org I have no idea what your little one's needs are, but this approach is very body oriented and you might find it interesting/helpful. In a nutshell, the child is helped to build "systems" which are then interrupted and/or expanded. If the child is interested and involved in the system he will indicate through language/gesture/eye movement/etc and the adult can use that system to expand the child's language and functional behavior.
Try this: Anytime you son sings a bit of the Rosy song say "oh you want to play ring around the rosy? Let's go!" and start a game. Once he is engaged in playing, pause just at the point of the most excitement and look expectantly at your child. Wait a sec, but not too long that he loses interest. If he pulls you to act, or hums/sings act like he said that he wants to continue, and all fall down! If he does nothing when you pause, ask "do you want fall down?", and again briefly pause for a response. Get the system going, then try to expand it. That really is a great little social system to work on.....
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:55 PM
 
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The 18 month old I take care of (who receives intervention) has recently started saying "da" to mean everything. We are so excited that she is actually verbalizing *anything* that we just mirror whatever it is she is refering to "that's right, 'that' book" or "you're 'done'?" she has a bunch of signs, but she is just like you DS in that she will not imitate language at all, and she won't even use her signs if you ask her too, only if she wants to. I think maybe she is just a bit stubborn :-)
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Old 06-29-2008, 01:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by my3peanuts View Post
Is it common in typical children? Because I've heard that it can be a sign of a speech disorder.
I have to say that it does seem that your ds may have a language delay. However, what I'm saying is that I've seen the "songs before speaking" develop earlier in quite a few typical children. So if your son is not yet talking but has recently begun to sing, that's a good sign that he's meeting milestones, even if late, that many typical children meet before speaking.

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Old 06-29-2008, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by PikkuMyy View Post
I have to say that it does seem that your ds may have a language delay. However, what I'm saying is that I've seen the "songs before speaking" develop earlier in quite a few typical children. So if your son is not yet talking but has recently begun to sing, that's a good sign that he's meeting milestones, even if late, that many typical children meet before speaking.
Yes, he is delayed and his speech therapist has said he has some atypical language patterns so I just wondered if this was one of them.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:11 AM
 
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I think, has his hearing been checked, and if so OAE or ABR?
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think, has his hearing been checked, and if so OAE or ABR?
Yeah, his hearing test was fine. And, fill me in on what OAE and ABR stand for?

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:17 AM
 
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OAE is oto-acoustic-emissions
ABR is auditory brainstem response

The first is non-sedated (and has to do with if the EAR itself hears)
The second is sedated usually (And has more to do with the brain or nerves not picking up the signal--which seems more in-line with Emeric)
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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His ST has mentioned before that most kids pick up on typical, everyday words like "hi" "mama" etc. and with ds his "words" which aren't full words but sounds all have to do with abstract concepts like saying "ni" for being nice to someone or "wa" for walk. Things like that. He also doesn't make "m" and "b" sounds very frequently and yet makes other strange sounds with his tongue. I just wondered if something like this singing is typical or if it's yet another atypical thing according to a ST anyway.

He did it quite a bit today again with the same song but the only semi-close sound he makes is for ashes by saying "atha". The rest of the sounds are mostly him just saying "uh uh uh" but with the right pauses and inflection in his voice so you can tell he's repeating what he's hearing.

Anyway, just one of those things that doesn't feel typical to me but eh, maybe I've just gotten to the point where I don't know what "typical" means anymore!

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamaverdi View Post
OAE is oto-acoustic-emissions
ABR is auditory brainstem response

The first is non-sedated (and has to do with if the EAR itself hears)
The second is sedated usually (And has more to do with the brain or nerves not picking up the signal--which seems more in-line with Emeric)
Can you elaborate? What kind of signs do you look for with ABR? His one therapist has mentioned Auditory Processing Disorder before but I haven't really ever looked into it and she hasn't said much more about it.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:20 AM
 
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So maybe it's apraxia? My son is apraxic, but I'm not sure exactly how all of the diff labels play into all of his diff issues.
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:23 AM
 
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An Auditory Processing Disorder is fairly common, but usually can't be tested for when they are little...they have to be older, much older, 7/8ish I think.

Don't quote me.

Auditory Processing is when your brain doesn't hear things in the right order, or interpret the sounds in the right way.

ABR would be a sedated test that measure's the brain's ability to actually "hear" the words, not translate them.

Auditory Processing is how it is translated.

There are different issues the ABR can pick up like Auditory Neuropathy.

ABR is somewhat like a NCS (Nerve Conduction Study) sometimes done with an EMG.


FWIU.
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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An Auditory Processing Disorder is fairly common, but usually can't be tested for when they are little...they have to be older, much older, 7/8ish I think.

Don't quote me.

Auditory Processing is when your brain doesn't hear things in the right order, or interpret the sounds in the right way.

ABR would be a sedated test that measure's the brain's ability to actually "hear" the words, not translate them.

Auditory Processing is how it is translated.

There are different issues the ABR can pick up like Auditory Neuropathy.

ABR is somewhat like a NCS (Nerve Conduction Study) sometimes done with an EMG.


FWIU.
So are you saying it's probably not typical? I guess I just always want to stay on top of things with him and not miss something. Like an Auditory Processing Disorder or whatever. His therapists are not good at keeping up on what's going on unfortunately.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:32 AM
 
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His therapists are through ECI?

No, it's probably not typical, but really, I don't know. My first one spoke around 6-8 months old. My second spoke at over 2 1/2 years old.
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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His therapists are through ECI?

No, it's probably not typical, but really, I don't know. My first one spoke around 6-8 months old. My second spoke at over 2 1/2 years old.
Yeah, he gets EI. And sadly we live in a pretty small town and only really have access to one group of therapists. And only one of them are very good.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:45 AM
 
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Don't feel bad. I live in the 4th largest city in the US and still we have trouble finding good therapists who will take our insurance. Of course we have yoUrHorrendousCoverage for our insurance company. : (If only that were a joke.)



Has he had an ABR though? Or just an OAE?
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Old 06-29-2008, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Don't feel bad. I live in the 4th largest city in the US and still we have trouble finding good therapists who will take our insurance. Of course we have yoUrHorrendousCoverage for our insurance company. : (If only that were a joke.)



Has he had an ABR though? Or just an OAE?
He's never had an ABR. Just your standard hearing test. I don't know, they put a thingy in his ear and measured the sound waves I think. lmao And then put him in a small room and watched if he turned towards sounds. An ABR does sound like it would be beneficial because with his encephalopathy it wouldn't be far fetched to think there could be something going on.

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Old 06-29-2008, 03:08 AM
 
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The thing in the ear is OAE.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:04 PM
 
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He's only 22 months, right?

I would definitely keep an eye on it, but I wouldn't be too alarmed. I had one daughter who definitely acquired expressive language late (her receptive language was fine because she could follow a command like "go get the ball"). She had maybe 15 words by 24 months. In comparison, her two older sisters both spoke quite clearly by 18 months a whole variety of words, and by 2 were speaking in 3-4 word sentences. Now matter how I tried to have that dd repeat words, she just looked at me and wouldn't repeat much. Some word/sounds like "moo", but not other words like "ball".

I started to get alarmed by age 24 months and called EI to have her evaluated. It took about a month for them to come out, but in the weeks following the phone call, she kept adding more and more words, so that by the time they actually came out, she gained maybe another 10 or so. Then they tested her, but she missed the qualification cutoff by about a two or three points. In the month following, she gained even more words.

I was told or I read somewhere that once a child reaches about 50 words, there suddenly becomes a word explosion. So your child may be coming to that point in the next few months.

Now all that being said, my daughter still struggles with enunciation (says words like yawyer, instead of lawyer) so she probably will end up having speech therapy at some point, but she is working hard on it now.

However, now she loves to sing and will sing constantly in the car to the childrens songs. I am tickled pink with how much she loves to sing now when this time last year I was really worried about her not speaking much.

Mama of 3 girls: 7.5 , 6 , and 4.5
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:55 AM
 
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My dd did this as well, and it actually got her mislabeled as PDD at first instead of epileptic with an auditory processing disorder. At three and a half, we've just in the past month got her to a point where she can have conversations (thank you tegretol!!). She's been able to technically speak for awhile, I'd say maybe 2 .5? But I guess it was just too hard to get the words out. She still has some processing issues, and will often say words that ryhme, or wrong words. However, the girl LOVES to sing. OMG, before she goes to bed every.single.night. the whole family has to come lay in the bed with her and we all sing skinamarinky-dinky-dink at the top of our lungs. As soon as it's over, she's out like a light. Yes, she's a character.

Anyway, around 20 months or so she would start singing, singing, singing, although we'd have no idea what she was singing. We later figured out it was bits of television shows - hence the PDD suspicions.

I wouldn't downplay the effect that epilepsy can have on speech and language usage. Like I said, with dd there were all kinds of suspicions about what was going on, when in truth, it was just that her seizures weren't well controlled - add that to a cognitive roadblocker like keppra and what was happening was that she *really* wanted to speak, I think, but just couldn't because of the mind fog she was in.
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Old 06-30-2008, 03:52 PM
 
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I don't want to worry you but your DS sounds like my DD was - and she has APD.

She was not a late talker but when she was first learning to speak it was weird and I remember thinking "is this how all kids learn language?" because she was sort of doing the sing-songy thing and imitating the cadence of speech rather than individual words. She seemed to be trying to say/sing the whole phrase.

It has always been easier for her to learn language through song than regular spoken words.

I think the key here for you is think about how much your DS actually understands. Can he follow a one-step direction without you pointing? Can he understand some individual words without pantomiming? If so, you probably can relax a bit and wait for things to develop more (one friend I know had a son who didn't have anything approaching real speech until just before he was 3 - but it was clear he understood what was being said).

It was clear my DD wasn't understanding alot of what was being said. And she was better able to "pay attention" to musical speech rather than regular speech...personally I think it actually fits with her sensory seeking personality - she just needs more "input" to make sense of things....

hth
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the key here for you is think about how much your DS actually understands. Can he follow a one-step direction without you pointing? Can he understand some individual words without pantomiming?
No. He can't follow directions without a lot of pointing or gesturing. And it has to be repeated quite a few times typically. He does understand some words.

I'm not concerned about his speech really since I know he has a speech delay. I'm mostly wondering if there's anything atypical as far as language goes in being able to "sing" before talking.

I do think he fits A LOT of the characteristics of APD but he's still very young. He is a sensory seeker as well and that wouldn't surprise me if it played a part!

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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