Do you believe in global warming? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 11:50 AM
 
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You don't have to be rich to be green. And those who are rich and green, unless they are actually making smart choices which are irrelevant to their financial status, are not actually green.

I agree that the question is clunky, and everyone seems to be coming to the discussion with different views on what "global warming" actually means.

For example i believe in CLIMATE CHANGE which is often what people mean when they talk about global warming. There are signs that the gulf stream is slowing. If it stops there may well be another ice age. Equally the huge amounts of CO2 and methane we are releasing into the atmosphere is, like it or not, more than would have been released without our activities - coal doesn't mine and burn itself, and cattle would not have had their international population explosion without the intensive farming methods which we have used to cause it.

Does this mean man can stop or reverse climate change? No. Climate change is an inevitable part of life on this planet. But i do think that the end of our species could easily be hastened by the dramatic changes in climate to which our activities have/are contributed/ing.

I also think that by the time we have grasped what our impact in all of this actually IS well enough to be able to do anything about it, and enough people "believe" to make a difference, it will be too late for us to do anything constructive anyway.
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#122 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 01:12 PM
 
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There are some areas where it does not cost extra (may even save money) to be green. Using less electricity, biking where possible, etc.

There are many area where it does indeed cost more money to be green. The food we eat, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive. In all of the above being green costs more than not being green.

I would like to own a hybrid car instead of my gas -guzzler...but I cannot afford one. No, I cannot go car free where I work and live. I do buy locally for many food items - but that isn't a luxury my neighbour can afford (she buys what is cheapest and that is that).

None of the above are excuses - we should all do what we can. When wealthy people preach to poorer people (or judge their less environmental choices) it sets my teeth on edge. That is all - it is a peeve of mine.

I am not sure why but being environmental is tied to class isssues for me, and I bet for other people, and that is something activists need to sort out if they want to encourage environmentalism. Excuse my lack of articulation - but I am still mulling on this issue.

FWIW - I frequent a simple living forum, and many of the people there are fairly wealthy.

From my observations - simple living and environmentalsim are pursuits of wealthier people (so it seems). It may have to do with Maslov and his pyramid. People are going to take care of their basic needs before moving higher up the pyramid - and maybe concern for the environment is higher up the pyramid. Creating a society where everyone has their basic needs met is probably an essential first step if you expect people to care about the environment.
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#123 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 01:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
I understand who you are talking about, but I don't agree with the premise that it is easier to be green when you make dollars. Personally, I think that frugality, living responsibly and "green" go hand in hand. If people want to buy into all the "green" products being marketed, that is fine, but honestly, living green for my family means less consumption and less waste. My family has a fairly good income but we don't "buy" green. We try to reduce, reuse and consume less. To me, that is at the heart of being green. To merely buy products that are marketed as green is not enough. It takes a total change in lifestyle - which means consuming less - not buying into the marketing which yells "I'm a green product! Buy me! You'll have more stuff and be environmentally friendly to boot!"
This is nice.

I do think focusing on simplicity is the way to go from an environmental POV. Buying green doesn't cut it because it is still about consumerism (which is really what has gotten us into this mess), and is affordable for many people.
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#124 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oliversmum2000 View Post
i believe in global warming but do not believe that it is due to mans actions. i think it is bonkers to suggest that these little ants scurrying around on the surface of a planet can cause so much of an effect. the dinosaurs were here when there was an ice age and nobody suggests that they caused it! i believe that this is far, far out of our control.
i am not so sure. i don't think that dinos or ants have put alot of the "green house" gases into the atmosphere, like we have. but i could be wrong (about the dinosaurs).

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#125 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

From my observations - simple living and environmentalsim are pursuits of wealthier people (so it seems). It may have to do with Maslov and his pyramid. People are going to take care of their basic needs before moving higher up the pyramid - and maybe concern for the environment is higher up the pyramid. Creating a society where everyone has their basic needs met is probably an essential first step if you expect people to care about the environment.
i have thought about this very issue myself. it is hard for people to see the "bigger" picture when they have no food or fresh water to begin with. that is their big picture.

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#126 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oliversmum2000 View Post
i believe in global warming but do not believe that it is due to mans actions. i think it is bonkers to suggest that these little ants scurrying around on the surface of a planet can cause so much of an effect. the dinosaurs were here when there was an ice age and nobody suggests that they caused it! i believe that this is far, far out of our control.
Size (or even number) isn't related to impact. *Everything* has an impact, and again, everything is a cycle, so a small impact here can lead to a larger impact there.

Consider F-gases. Puny in terms of total global emissions, they have no natural sources, but their global warming potentials are MASSIVE (11,000+ times that of CO2 for HFC-23, 23,000+ times that of CO2 for SF6), and their atmospheric lifetime is in terms of tens of thousands of years. We sure know how to pack a punch, huh?

It's really overly simplistic and, well, plain silly to think that any part of this huge cycle can be labeled a "cause and effect", but it's equally silly to claim that any component of the system isn't having an impact on that system. Especially when there are concrete monitoring data demonstrating otherwise.

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#127 of 127 Old 03-16-2010, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
There are some areas where it does not cost extra (may even save money) to be green. Using less electricity, biking where possible, etc.

There are many area where it does indeed cost more money to be green. The food we eat, the clothes we wear, the cars we drive. In all of the above being green costs more than not being green.
I disagree, wearing clothes from thrift stores, making one's own clothing from fabric from old clothes and growing one's own vegetables (which i once did in pots i found in the bins near my house filled with soil i dug in the local park!) all save money while being greener options.

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I would like to own a hybrid car instead of my gas -guzzler...but I cannot afford one. No, I cannot go car free where I work and live. I do buy locally for many food items - but that isn't a luxury my neighbour can afford (she buys what is cheapest and that is that).
Hybrid cars are not overall that much better for the planet currently. The power used to create them, not to mention the fossil fuels burned to create the electrcity to keep charging the batteries (electrolysis of water is how we make hydrogen), make them a relatively costly (for the earth) option. It takes so much energy to make a car, you may well be greener running your gas guzzler into the ground than replacing it with a hybrid, or replacing it at all. Super diesels are a better option, and while we cannot all afford one (we can't either) we can all help by using public transport more, walking/biking where possible and making sure WHEN we buy a replacement vehicle we go for the greenest option we CAN afford.

I was a single mother on UK benefits between 2006 and 2009. It is not a lot of money! I couldn't afford to eat ethically raised meat every day, so i didn't eat much meat, i couldn't afford to keep my house at 20C so i didn't, i kept it at 18C and wore a cardigan, i couldn't afford to run a car so i didn't, i cycled, walked or used the public transport. Some of the poorest people are the greenest, but some of it is going to be a personal choice. I personally (not a green issue but an example) will only eat free range eggs and chicken, mainly because i don't think the taste or nutritional value of the factory raised hens and their eggs compares and at least partly because i'm horrified at how they are raised. For most of those 3 years i didn't eat any white chicken meat. I could only afford the cheaper cuts, and i knew lots of people, also on benefits, having chicken every weekend and chicken breasts often through the week, because they bought the cheapest, factory raised meat.

Quote:
None of the above are excuses - we should all do what we can. When wealthy people preach to poorer people (or judge their less environmental choices) it sets my teeth on edge. That is all - it is a peeve of mine.

I am not sure why but being environmental is tied to class isssues for me, and I bet for other people, and that is something activists need to sort out if they want to encourage environmentalism. Excuse my lack of articulation - but I am still mulling on this issue.

FWIW - I frequent a simple living forum, and many of the people there are fairly wealthy.

From my observations - simple living and environmentalsim are pursuits of wealthier people (so it seems). It may have to do with Maslov and his pyramid. People are going to take care of their basic needs before moving higher up the pyramid - and maybe concern for the environment is higher up the pyramid. Creating a society where everyone has their basic needs met is probably an essential first step if you expect people to care about the environment.
I agree, people are (and arguably SHOULD) look after their basic needs, before meeting wants (like being green), but i really feel there are cheap ways to do it. With any "green" product it's worth looking at WHY it is marketed as green (which, as with hybrid cars will often reveal how green it isn't) and working out if you can do it too - salt is cheaper than most household cleaners and does an equally good job in MANY tasks. I was never so green as i became when i became poor. I was working in a good job for the NHS and then DD came along. Within a few months i was a single parent and then i was on benefits (for ME, personal choice, i felt my presence was more relevant to DD's wellbeing than a better income) and most of the green measures i took because i was forced, by lack of money, to do so. I rode the bus, but only if it was more than 2 miles, because i couldn't afford to throw money at the bus company to save me a short walk. I used less electricity simply because i couldn't pay the bill if i used a lot.

Unfortunately "green" is the latest thing picked up by the big companies and advertisers, which i agree DOES make it seem like if one has enough money one can buy the earth its health back, but if one ignores the adverts and looks into HOW one can make a certain thing greener (i could give a million more examples, today's is that my local council currently doesn't take eggboxes for recycling, often we give them to a friend who has hens (he returns them full of his surplus eggs ) but today we are using them to start our peas and broad beans on the kitchen windowsill - they can go right into the bigger containers and will rot away as the plants grow, they were free, since i cannot buy eggs locally without getting a box with them) one is often surprised at how cheap the greener alternatives can be.
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