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#1 of 122 Old 11-16-2010, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Has anyone traveled through airports that have the new TSA scanners?  I have been doing a lot of reading on this and am very conflicted.  I understand that the TSA agents are going to pull people at random from the metal detection scanners and into the body scanners.  The images that those body scanners project are VERY revealing and border on pornography as ALL your junk is visible.  In addition, that is extra radiation that your body does not need.  On the flip side, if you decline the scan, you will be patted down in a completely new way - with the palms of the hands and cupped and groped to make sure you are not hiding anything - yes, including cupping a man's stuff and up to the underside of the breast.

 

So, radiation shot or physically violated?  I don't like either option.  I certainly do not approve of either option for my children.

 

Here's some casual reading material:

 

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Naked+scanners+airports+dangerous+scientists/3819955/story.html

 

and

 

http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-place-roughly-between.html

 

I know there are issues of safety right now.  But really, being physically violated is acceptable?

 

Has anyone gone through these yet?  With your children?  Would you let your child go?  Which option would you choose?

 

The TSA website says that if we decline both the scan and body pat-down (ha!) that we will be escorted from the airport.

 

I think this whole thing is outrageous.

 

 

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#2 of 122 Old 11-16-2010, 03:38 PM
 
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I went through oakland airport recently and they do have the new scanners.  I was a little worried about it but they weren't sending anyone at all through them.  I'd rather be patted down by a woman than seen on the x-rays by a man.

(They asked me to submit to a pat down at LAX coming home, just my lower half, I presume because I was wearing a big flowy skirt.  (LAX didn't even have the scanners)  It's not the first time I've been patted down at the airport.  Honestly, yes, it's annoying and intrusive, but it's not that big a deal.  It's not "groping".)


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#3 of 122 Old 11-16-2010, 03:38 PM
 
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For those interested, here's some more reading on this subject from another board I frequent: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html

The above includes a list of airports utilizing the technology.

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#4 of 122 Old 11-16-2010, 05:47 PM
 
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Of course they are saying that there's no risk and it's the same amount of radiation you get from 2 minutes on an airplane. Which may be true, but then they say a lot of things- HFCS is great! Smoking too! Let's cover ourselves in DDT! This medication is shown to have no side effects! etc. orngtongue.gif

 

We are flying over Christmas and I plan on declining the scan for me and my kids. Let them frisk us. I used to go to clubs in NYC and we would get the full treatment to get in- crotch, between and under breasts, it's not so bad- and it's done by a female. 

 

 


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#5 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 07:33 AM
 
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i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.

 

read this woman's account here:

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/

 

there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.

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#6 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 07:35 AM
 
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We recently flew and were planning on declining the body scans, but we ended up just going through a metal detector anyways.  DH's a rad tech student and can't be exposed to excessive radiation as it is, besides the health concerns.

 

I wouldn't allow my kids to go through one. I'd take a pat down over a full body scan.

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#7 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 07:39 AM
 
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No, I won't let my kids get patted down, so if we get pulled over to go through the full body scan, so be it. It is amazing that we find this acceptable in the name of secuirity.

 

Of course, if they are still doing it randomly, then they really are just profiling, like they have in the past- So yes, I do have concerns about this. My husband showed me a kids coloring book to help teach the kids what to expect and that it is ok. splat.gif


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#8 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magelet View Post

I went through oakland airport recently and they do have the new scanners.  I was a little worried about it but they weren't sending anyone at all through them.  I'd rather be patted down by a woman than seen on the x-rays by a man.

(They asked me to submit to a pat down at LAX coming home, just my lower half, I presume because I was wearing a big flowy skirt.  (LAX didn't even have the scanners)  It's not the first time I've been patted down at the airport.  Honestly, yes, it's annoying and intrusive, but it's not that big a deal.  It's not "groping".)


Everything that I've read online from personal accounts says that what the TSA agents do IS groping.  I'm sorry, but if someone cups my husband's stuff and then wants to separate the goodies to see if he stashed something between his twig and berries, that's not acceptable!  Or if some female TSA officer wants to stick her hands INSIDE my bra, that's not acceptable either!  There are numerous personal accounts of that stuff happening.  Somehow, kids 12 and under are exempt from one but not the other but I'm not sure which.  Neither is an acceptable option.

 


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms. Sisko View Post

For those interested, here's some more reading on this subject from another board I frequent: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html

The above includes a list of airports utilizing the technology.

What is the millimeter wave scan referenced in the first post.  I see that there is 6 pages of discussion so I haven't read through the whole thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mouso View Post

Of course they are saying that there's no risk and it's the same amount of radiation you get from 2 minutes on an airplane. Which may be true, but then they say a lot of things- HFCS is great! Smoking too! Let's cover ourselves in DDT! This medication is shown to have no side effects! etc. orngtongue.gif

 

We are flying over Christmas and I plan on declining the scan for me and my kids. Let them frisk us. I used to go to clubs in NYC and we would get the full treatment to get in- crotch, between and under breasts, it's not so bad- and it's done by a female. 

 

 



I don't know about not being so bad...  Will they buy you a steak and lobster dinner first and then call you in the morning???  ROTFLMAO.gif


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#9 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by raelize View Post

i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.

 

read this woman's account here:

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/

 

there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.


Oh, I'm not saying that the pat-downs are nothing, but they don't feel under your clothes on your skin. I read that post and it seems they felt inside her waistband of her pants and then her groin and breast area OVER her pants/shirt. They didn't go in her pants and under her shirt to feel her labia and breasts. That doesn't mean that these don't feel invasive/intrusive to many, though. The first time I had a search like that done I was like, wow, that was sure a thorough search!

I would be interested in reading those other first-hand accounts where they did go under the clothes, though, so I can reevaluate my plan if it really is happening. 

 

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#10 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 08:26 AM
 
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I've been through several the 'enhanced' pat-downs. I've flown quite a bit, and it was definitely different than any patdown I've been through before, and did leave me feeling a bit violated, but was nothing like what the posters online are describing. It was all over the clothing, but they definitely did run their hands over your entire breast and groin area.

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What if you are wearing a pad during the pat down?


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#12 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeress View Post

No, I won't let my kids get patted down, so if we get pulled over to go through the full body scan, so be it. It is amazing that we find this acceptable in the name of secuirity.

 

Of course, if they are still doing it randomly, then they really are just profiling, like they have in the past- So yes, I do have concerns about this. My husband showed me a kids coloring book to help teach the kids what to expect and that it is ok. splat.gif



Where is this book?  Do you have a link???  I'd like to see it..

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeress View Post

What if you are wearing a pad during the pat down?



Great question!!!  So what about a baby's diaper???  If we get pulled out of the metal detector line and redirected to the porno/violate line, what are they going to do to check the baby's diaper???  While it is a bonus that our DD likely won't remember an experience like this a couple weeks from now, it doesn't make it acceptable.

 

One of my biggest concerns is for our 11 yo DS.  He may have to fly to see his bio-father over the first half of winter break.  If his father books that ticket, I don't have a choice but to either send him or face a court action.  Those TSA agents at the start of the scan line don't know his age.  What if they decide to redirect us?  I don't want to subject our 11 yo to this.  TSA doesn't have all the kinks worked out yet.  They don't exactly hire the most intelligent people to run "security" if they're paying barely above minimum wage.

 

Arggghghhh!  This is so maddening!


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#13 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:31 AM
 
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I am realllllly against them both and I am not a modest person by any means. Just the sound of it feels violating (I have not flown in years)... the simple answer (and the option a lot of people will now take, I am sure) is "well, just don't fly", and with the travel industry struggling as it has been, I hope it cripples them enough that it leads them to see how bad of an idea this is....


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#14 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:34 AM
 
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The thing that frustrates me is reading stuff like this (from this link):

 

"Some travelers complain that the new inspections target sensitive body areas. Pistole says he understands those privacy concerns, but says the government must provide the best possible security for air travelers."

 

That rationale could be used to justify anything. I can just see in a few years, the above quote will be the same except that the phrase "new inspections" would be replaced by "cavity searches." But don't worry, it's just the government keeping us safe. You want to be SAFE don't you?!?!?!1!1? Refusing to submit is un-American, dontchaknow -- that's how the terrorists win. Blugh. 


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#15 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:49 AM
 
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i think that it was under clothes, over underwear.  but then, the author, Dave Barry was searched this way and i don't remember if it was under underwear, but it was definately under clothes.  they wear gloves when they do this. i don't think they would worry about wearing gloves if they were going over clothes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mouso View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post

i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.

 

read this woman's account here:

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/

 

there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.


Oh, I'm not saying that the pat-downs are nothing, but they don't feel under your clothes on your skin. I read that post and it seems they felt inside her waistband of her pants and then her groin and breast area OVER her pants/shirt. They didn't go in her pants and under her shirt to feel her labia and breasts. That doesn't mean that these don't feel invasive/intrusive to many, though. The first time I had a search like that done I was like, wow, that was sure a thorough search!

I would be interested in reading those other first-hand accounts where they did go under the clothes, though, so I can reevaluate my plan if it really is happening. 

 

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#16 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post

read this woman's account here:

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/

 
 

 

She kept saying "vagina area".  Did the TSA do a cavity search, or does this woman just not have the word vulva in her vocabulary?  Or is she just trying to incite a very specific emotional response from her readers?  Because I have been sexually assaulted, and I can't imagine how a pat-down could compare to that...


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#17 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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In response to Mama_of_1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner

Both the MMW scanner and the backscatter x-ray scanners are whole body imaging devices. I am the farthest thing from an expert on the actual technology employed but some do debate one being safer than the other. The above link has samples of the images the machine produces.

I would rather get naked in the middle of the airport and have it filmed for all posterity to behold than go through an "enhanced" pat down or a WBI contraption. At least then everyone would be able to see what was going on. I have yet to be pulled from the line but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

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#18 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwithboys View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post

read this woman's account here:

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/

 
 

 

She kept saying "vagina area".  Did the TSA do a cavity search, or does this woman just not have the word vulva in her vocabulary?  Or is she just trying to incite a very specific emotional response from her readers?  Because I have been sexually assaulted, and I can't imagine how a pat-down could compare to that...


I have also been sexually assaulted. And I can definitely imagine how a pat-down could compare to that. I can also imagine having a traumatic reaction to being groped, resulting in becoming either a crying, blubbery mess - even to the point of going into shock, or screaming and reacting violently against my assailant. With the high number of sexual assault survivors in this country, these "pat-downs" are irresponsible and damaging, to say the least.


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#19 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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I will not be flying out of any airport where this is happening.  This is completely outrageous.  I hope enough people don't just meekly submit to this, that the airlines are forced to stop doing it.  I hope the airlines go bankrupt.

 

I'm so mad that so many people are just going along with this.  If you're willing to consent to this, where do you draw the line?  What if they start doing cavity searches?  Would you be okay with that?

 

I know some people have no choice but to fly, and that's a horrible position to be in; in that case I would choose the body scan.  I will not be groped by some stranger, and there is no way in hell I'll hold my kid down while they're sexually assaulted.  How awful.

 

I wouldn't be okay with any of this even if it made us safer, but it doesn't.  It's ridiculous.  Do you think if a terrorist had an explosive small enough to hide in their underwear, or between their breasts, they wouldn't just put it in a body cavity?

 

Ugh I'm so mad about this.


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#20 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 10:13 AM
 
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I read the whole Dave Barry interview twice and at no time does he mention taking off his pants or it being under his pants. I'm not trying to get into an argument but feel like there is a lot of misinformation out there and am trying to figure out the reality. I get on a plane with my family in a month and would like to prepared, not scared of vague accusations.

So far what I can see is that while a search like that involves firm placement of hands by a same sex person into the groin area, which many find invasive,  there is no clothing removal. 

 

So, does anyone have links to where there is an actual statement by someone that they were searched by groping inside their pants and under their shirt? Because I'm pretty certain there would be a much larger uproar if TSA employees were fishing around inside people's pants. 

I'm by no means defending any of this- just want to know the facts.

The PP who has had several of these searches at airports who posted above has pretty much described the kind of extremely thorough searches that I've had before. But those do not involve going under clothes.

 


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#21 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 10:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouso View Post

I read the whole Dave Barry interview twice and at no time does he mention taking off his pants or it being under his pants. I'm not trying to get into an argument but feel like there is a lot of misinformation out there and am trying to figure out the reality. I get on a plane with my family in a month and would like to prepared, not scared of vague accusations.

So far what I can see is that while a search like that involves firm placement of hands by a same sex person into the groin area, which many find invasive,  there is no clothing removal. 

 

So, does anyone have links to where there is an actual statement by someone that they were searched by groping inside their pants and under their shirt? Because I'm pretty certain there would be a much larger uproar if TSA employees were fishing around inside people's pants. 

I'm by no means defending any of this- just want to know the facts.

The PP who has had several of these searches at airports who posted above has pretty much described the kind of extremely thorough searches that I've had before. But those do not involve going under clothes.

 



Obviously I don't know if this guy is lying or not, but here you go.


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#22 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 10:43 AM
 
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I have not personally read anything about under-the-clothes style pat downs. There are plenty of articles, though, about crotch touching and other aggressive search techniques being employed.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/10/28/airline.security.pat.down/ (CNN employee in tears during search)

http://www.pennandteller.com/03/coolstuff/penniphile/roadpennfederalvip.html (well known Penn Jillette incident)

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/10/for-the-first-time-the-tsa-meets-resistance/65390/ (journalist's account of converstion with TSA agents who claim that more aggressive pat downs will lead to more people willingly going through the WBI process)

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-10-29-tsa-pat-downs_N.htm

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1140968-post-here-links-articles-about-wbi-groping.html - this post has tons of links.




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#23 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 10:47 AM
 
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It more of a spoof than a real coloring book, but it is funny. ;


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#24 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 12:20 PM
 
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I found this: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/17/dont-touch-my-junk-flier-unlikely-face-fine  And they point out that EVEN THE GUY THAT MADE THE DECISION WAS UNCOMFORTABLE BY THE PAT-DOWN!

 

Seriously?

 

 

I briefly mentioned it to DH and asked, "How would you feel about watching some other man feel me up in front of strangers?" He wasn't pleased by the thought.

 

I'm probably going to flash a TMI here...but what about those of use that don't wear underwear or that wear thongs with skirts?


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#25 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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Here is a link to a 3 year old screaming no no, don't touch me while being patted down. 

 

http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2010/11/tsa-pats-down-crying-3-year-old/

 

Even if you are okay with it in the general sense, would you really be okay with disregarding your child's fears/wishes??

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#26 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:27 PM
 
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Has anyone traveled through airports that have the new TSA scanners?  I have been doing a lot of reading on this and am very conflicted.  I understand that the TSA agents are going to pull people at random from the metal detection scanners and into the body scanners.  The images that those body scanners project are VERY revealing and border on pornography as ALL your junk is visible. 

 

 

I don't consider an image of my naked body to be pornographic, so that part would not bother me. I also believe that the radiation is negligible.

 

Air travel is not a right. While I find these security measures ridiculous, I do not get to make the rules. American airport security should learn from the Israeli model. There are more important things to focus on than shoes and bottled water.

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#27 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choli View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama_of_1 View Post

Has anyone traveled through airports that have the new TSA scanners?  I have been doing a lot of reading on this and am very conflicted.  I understand that the TSA agents are going to pull people at random from the metal detection scanners and into the body scanners.  The images that those body scanners project are VERY revealing and border on pornography as ALL your junk is visible. 

 

 

I don't consider an image of my naked body to be pornographic, so that part would not bother me. I also believe that the radiation is negligible.

 

Air travel is not a right. While I find these security measures ridiculous, I do not get to make the rules. American airport security should learn from the Israeli model. There are more important things to focus on than shoes and bottled water

 

 


 

 

 

Of course it's not a right.  And I am sure that most people would be a-okay with the full body scanners or the pat downs if they actually improved security.  But they don't.  In the one video of the guy who used the phrase"Touch my junk" they were threatening him with a civil suit and a huge fine for declining the scan and the pat down and wanting to forgo his flight.  how is that okay?  we are talking about government boundaries. 

 

Shopping isn't a right either.  Should we have to go through a full body scan or a pat down if we want to enter the grocery store, because someone COULD bring a bomb in?

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#28 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:42 PM
 
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Of course it's not a right.  And I am sure that most people would be a-okay with the full body scanners or the pat downs if they actually improved security.  But they don't.  In the one video of the guy who used the phrase"Touch my junk" they were threatening him with a civil suit and a huge fine for declining the scan and the pat down and wanting to forgo his flight.  how is that okay?  we are talking about government boundaries. 

 

Shopping isn't a right either.  Should we have to go through a full body scan or a pat down if we want to enter the grocery store, because someone COULD bring a bomb in?


I agree that these measures do not improve security, that is why I called them ridiculous. It is "security theater" rather than security, just like the shoe removal and the confiscation of liquids. But this is America, and the show is more important than the result. That's what 10 years of reality tv does to a country;-) To me, it is all just taking part in the theater, it really does not bother me that much.

 

A grocery store would be within their rights to insist on a full body scan or pat down if they wanted to. Of course, they woul d lose custom as people would choose not to shop there, just as if I objected so vehemently to the security measures at the airport, I would not fly.
 

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#29 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by choli View Post

I don't consider an image of my naked body to be pornographic, so that part would not bother me. I also believe that the radiation is negligible.

 

Air travel is not a right. While I find these security measures ridiculous, I do not get to make the rules. American airport security should learn from the Israeli model. There are more important things to focus on than shoes and bottled water.


I agree - our naked bodies are not pornographic.  But when someone looks at MY naked body, without my permission that is an invasion into my privacy.  Consider it a case of a peeping tom.  Same principle.  Viewing without disclosure.

 

Yes, air travel is not a right, but it is a contract with the airline that you do business with.  Ultimately, if the airlines begin to loose business over the new TSA rules and restrictions, they will make it known that this is not an acceptable way of treating individuals.  The Israeli model of security has always been superior because of the profiling that is used.  Profiling is a bad word in the US, but it works.  Our behavior will subtlely reveal our intentions.  I don't see anything wrong with being asked whatever questions need to be asked.  It's far less intrusive, in my opinion than a naked picture of me, or of my husband or children, being viewed by some stranger.
 


Now: Mama of 2! Worker Bee happily married to my DH, motorcycle riding mama to H 8/99 and K 8/09.
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#30 of 122 Old 11-17-2010, 02:46 PM
 
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Hi, everyone! TAO is for topics that could fit into multiple forums. Please refrain from discussing blog comments. In an effort to keep this thread on the board and in TAO, I need to ask that we not make this a political debate and to please focus on the OP's questions:
Quote:
Has anyone gone through these yet? With your children? Would you let your child go? Which option would you choose?

Please also remember that if this becomes a debate about new America's airport policies, it will be moved into News and Current Events.

Questions or comments about my request can be directed to me via email or PM (preferably email): [email protected]

Thanks so much!

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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