Mothering, grant me the serenity to accept I can't change my brother & SIL's birth (Baby's Here #28) - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-18-2011, 03:26 AM
 
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 I was directly responding to the PP right before me who stated that "lots of women CHOOSE to have c-sections, and they are very happy with them." She made it very clear that her sections were scheduled, and that she was happy that her births were "easy and pain free." I was not AT ALL making any judgment about women who have sections because that is what they need to do. However, YOU are not one to tell me how I should feel about a woman who specifically chooses not to participate in NCB, even with hopes or education. When someone comes to MDC and post about how happy she is that she intentionally had a scheduled section, IM SORRY, that was NOT the community I thought I had become a part of. There are WAY too many not medically necassary sections in the United States, and people need to know that there other options. The medical industry pushes sections because they are "easy" and "pain free" and whatever other things they tell women who DO NOT NEED them. MDC used to be a safehaven for women to not be subjected to the cultural norm of formula is just as good as breastmilk, spanking how you teach your kids to listen, c-sections will keep your vag smaller (plus the healing process is SO much easier), and (possibly the worst) the DRAMA that occurs due to lack of moderation when a website decides to open things up to appease more people and it winds up making the people who have strong feelings about NATRUAL (or at least some attempt or hope of natural) childbirth and parenting get yelled at for stating what USED TO BE this very website's user agreement. Im sorry, no amount of arguing is ever going to convince me that people who think sections are better than NCB because they are "pain free" should NOT be told otherwise.


 

clap.gif Well said. I also totally agree with your previous post.

 

I had a cesarean birth, and have been able to discuss and share about it here and found a lot of support and no judgement. I had planned a home birth and in the end that's just not what life gave me. There is a HUGE difference between an elective, non-medically-necessary cesarean, and a birth that ends in one because all other options are gone and the baby and/or mother are at great risk. And there is a special kind of trauma and pain when a woman has envisioned and planned and dreamed for years about a natural and/or home birth, and ends up in a full-on medical surgical birth. I have found a safe haven in MDC and met other mamas who, like me, did not get their dream birth. I like (or liked) knowing that most of the women here who had sections are like me, and did not want one but had aimed for NCB. And there are plenty of us!

 

I, too, find it sad that now that Mothering is web-only they are trying so hard to get new people, and that means loosening up the limits of what people post here. I do understand and support that they need to do this, and in a way I feel less moderation is better, but I just don't like reading about someone being pleased as punch with their elective, non-necessary sections. Maybe it makes me a bad person, but yes I feel judgemental about that. I don't like it. I just don't.

 


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Old 05-19-2011, 10:44 AM
 
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For those who are interested, here's a link to a thread from about a year ago focused on how c-section fits into a natural birth framework:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1216297/how-do-c-sections-fit-into-a-natural-birth-framework/240#post_15513579

 

It's very long, but a fascinating read if you've got the stamina for it.

 

MDC is such a place of refuge for many of us. It feels like one (perhaps the only one) safe place to be in community with others who are making outside-the-mainstream choices with regards to birth and parenting. So it's not surprising that many of us feel defensive and/or fearful when that place of refuge feels "invaded" by ideas or experiences that don't fit within the boundaries that we feel define it's safety.

 

On the flipside, MDC is open and diverse and welcoming to many, so it's no surprise that the boundaries do get pushed. And c-section seems to be one of those topics that pushes the most.

 

There are certainly real differences between women who've had c-sections and women who haven't, but in these discussions I see the main divide being between women who claim "birth as an empowering experience" vs. "birth as a humbling experience". That seems to be the place where it can be very hard to reach outside one's own experience and really understand where another person is coming from. Though of course there are many women who can claim both of sides of that coin.

 

I'm one who claims "birth is humbling" because that's what it was for me. Here's another thread from awhile back that looks at the humbling side of birth:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1217886/humbling-beginnings/40#post_15582366

 

All I can add is that MDC is an important refuge for me and I appreciate that these conversations are allowed to happen. I know that there's a lot of concern about the degree of moderation that's appropriate in these forums. There is probably not a perfect level that will work for everyone. But I for one am willing to forego a little personal comfort in exchange for the kind of thoughtful, intelligent, and truly diverse conversation that happens around difficult issues like c-section.


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Old 05-19-2011, 12:19 PM
 
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I never regretted my c-section.  I was and am relieved to have a live baby regardless of how he came out of my body and into my arms.  I understand that it is not ideal to have a surgical procedure for any reason due to the risks involved, but I have never once felt less of a mother for it.  I do tend to let people know that it was an emergency C, not an elective to coincide with the Super Bowl or something, but hey--judging others for their delivery choices is something I try to avoid!  I have a friend with a history of sexual abuse who had an elective C and I sure supported her choice 1,000%.  Power over our own bodies lies, in part, within knowing ourselves well enough to make the best choices we can.  And folks...if we rant about c/s and the impact on ability to bond/parent/etc., where does that leave adoptive parents?  Parenting is about love, not the birth canal.


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Old 05-21-2011, 11:53 PM
 
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I think there should be a difference between a baby born via a medically needed c-section and a scheduled elective c-section because people can do it and don't want "natural child birth" (and I'd consider psychological trauma a major valid reason for having a c-section). I see no issues with the former, but I'd rather not see posts glorifying the latter.

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Old 05-22-2011, 12:54 PM
 
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I really don't understand why another woman's birth choices are in any way anyone else's business.

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Old 05-22-2011, 01:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by marinak1977 View Post

I think there should be a difference between a baby born via a medically needed c-section and a scheduled elective c-section because people can do it and don't want "natural child birth" (and I'd consider psychological trauma a major valid reason for having a c-section). I see no issues with the former, but I'd rather not see posts glorifying the latter.


I think that it is no one's place to make such a decision ranking the validity of a mom's birth choices but that mom herself.
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:25 PM
 
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I think there should be a difference between a baby born via a medically needed c-section and a scheduled elective c-section because people can do it and don't want "natural child birth" (and I'd consider psychological trauma a major valid reason for having a c-section). I see no issues with the former, but I'd rather not see posts glorifying the latter.




I think that it is no one's place to make such a decision ranking the validity of a mom's birth choices but that mom herself.


Than why bother fighting against a medicalized birth system at all?

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Old 05-22-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Than why bother fighting against a medicalized birth system at all?

Why indeed?  I am not going to fight to have other women's birth choices restricted.

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Old 05-22-2011, 02:40 PM
 
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Why indeed?  I am not going to fight to have other women's birth choices restricted.



Well, in many ways less focus on medicalized birth would actually give women more choices.  Don'tcha think?

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Old 05-22-2011, 03:34 PM
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I think, as always, this conversation devolves into an intense emotional space, particularly for those women who have had c-sections. 

 

 

What is important to note is that there is a differentiation between women who have had c-sections and the fact that more women are given c-sections than may be necessary due to the birth culture. We know, for example. that in the US, c-section rates are reaching toward 40%, and yet the WHO asserts that in a developed nation, it should be less than 5%. 

 

As a natural/vaginal birth advocate, I take issue with this situation, and I am very fearful of women who simply go to birth with doctors and hospitals. I fear that in the heat of the moment (circumstances such as the pain of pitocin, a panicky nurse or relative, etc) the doctor will -- as one poster put it -- "dangle" the c-section in front of the mother as an easy solution, and then she takes it.

 

Like the OP, I was greatly concerned for my sister knowing that she was going with a doctor/hospital -- even a very natural minded one -- once she got into the hospital and started on the pitocin. I am very thankful that she did birth vaginally, and I feel secure (now) that her doctor would only have given her a c-section had it been necessary, but when she went into the hospital, I wasn't sure if that would be the outcome. Like the OP, I had to come to terms with *my feelings* -- or my fears that my sister would be used/abused by the system, and then it would be excused as "but it was necessary!" by the doctors.

 

And it's could have been true. As an arm-chair observer, I can't say what was necessary for any given women's birth, nor can I say that c-section is inherently bad because it can be a life-saving surgery!

 

But I still have to deal with my feelings about 35% of women likely having *unnecessary* c-sections. Not judging an individual birth experience (or assering whether or not any given one was necessary or unnecessary), but really dealing with my frustration that likely that many women are getting unnecessary c-sections -- and we don't know which ones or how to stop it from happening at this point, beyond trying to educate people *before* they get pregnant.

 

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Old 05-22-2011, 03:45 PM
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I think, too, there might be some confusion about advocacy in general -- or at least how I see it.

 

I advocate for women's choices -- which includes informed consent.

 

What we know about the modern, american birth culture is that it is often not evidence based, ruled by hospital policies and doctor polices that are not evidence based and often run by profit margins, and that doctors, nurses, and hospitals (including the culture at large using organizations like CPS and the courts) will utilize manipulative scare tactics to force their way --even when there is very little scientific evidence to support the way that they want (either from the tests of the mother or from the general science itself).

 

By working to change this situation, we increase women's choices. I do not think that 35% of women who get c-sections are *wanting* them. Nearly every woman I know who has had a c-section is *convinced* that it was necessary. I can only assume that roughly 5% were actually necessary, but I do not know *which ones* which is why I cannot "judge" a woman's birth (and don't). 

 

But, I do think it is safe to say that if all 40% of women are saying "but mine was necessary!" then there are many women who would -- had they truly been given real, evidence based information, been supported in their choices, and had their doctors, nurses, and other support people been more natural minded, then they would not have had a c-section. Because they didn't "choose" it -- they felt it was necessary.

 

Does this make sense?

 

I do not doubt any woman who says her c=section is necessary. I believe and listen to her story. 

 

 But, something in the numbers isn't adding up. Also, those doctors often report that the 35% "asked" for the c-section -- but I don't know when or how, because *most* of the stories that I read are women who "had to have them for emergency or medical reasons." So, like i'm saying, things aren't adding up.

 

Again, this is about women being able to have *real* choices. With 35% getting c-sections that theythink are necessary and that doctors are reporting as elective, what gives? 

 

By advocating for evidence based, mother-and-child focused care, we are really advocating for total free choice. That includes elective c-sections, but with real information, i doubt 35% of women would be electing.

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Old 05-22-2011, 03:53 PM
 
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I just want to piggy-back on Drummer's Wife's point. Staying open to the many possibilities of birth feels to me like the wisest and most supportive way to approach any birthing situation. When you decide "because x has happened, y must be the only way forward" you are closing off many possibilities and ways to support those possibilities.

 

Your SIL may have a c-section and be happy with it. She may have a c-section and be traumatized by it. She may have a vaginal birth and be happy with it. She may have a vaginal birth and be traumatized by it. She may have complex and even contradictory feelings about her experience whether her baby enters the world through her vagina or through an incision. If you can stay open to just hearing what happened and supporting her no matter what, that would be a tremendous gift to her, one that (sadly) not all new moms receive.

 

Birth would be so much simpler if "good" choices always led to wonderful ecstatic births, and "bad" choices always led to traumatic outcomes. The incentive to make the "right" choices would be so clear! But birth isn't a system of rewards & punishments and it doesn't follow ideological rules. It is unpredictable, which is part of why its so powerful. Sometimes women do all the "right" things and have really unexpected and difficult experiences. Sometimes women make mistakes all over the place and everything goes just fine, even great, in spite of that. I believe the best care providers understand and respect the mystery of that and are able to stay present to each individual experience...no small feat, but worth aspiring to.


clap.gifI LOVE this post! So very, very well said!

 

Congratulations OP on the birth of your niece. She is lucky to have an auntie who looks forward to spending time with her!smile.gif


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Old 05-23-2011, 08:12 AM
 
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I do not think that 35% of women who get c-sections are *wanting* them. Nearly every woman I know who has had a c-section is *convinced* that it was necessary. I can only assume that roughly 5% were actually necessary, but I do not know *which ones* which is why I cannot "judge" a woman's birth (and don't). 

 

But, I do think it is safe to say that if all 40% of women are saying "but mine was necessary!" then there are many women who would -- had they truly been given real, evidence based information, been supported in their choices, and had their doctors, nurses, and other support people been more natural minded, then they would not have had a c-section. Because they didn't "choose" it -- they felt it was necessary.

 

Does this make sense?


 

It totally makes sense to me.

 

I had 2 c-sections. Back when I was still making peace with them, I often found myself in conversations with women who needed to determine if I was in the 5% of truly necessary, or in the 35% of not necessary but too stupid to realize it.  I most likely had more of those conversations than many c-section moms because my life revolved about LLL, AP support group, and mothering.com. 

 

It got really, really old. I got really sick of telling my story. I got really tired of women who got the births they wanted feeling they had the right to judge my births.

 

So while I agree with you about the numbers, I think that how you ACT about them is quite another thing.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 05-23-2011, 08:59 AM
 
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I think the challenge is how to be supportive and non-judgmental of individual birth stories - yet still advocate for a lower C-section rate overall.

 

Sadly, I do not think advocacy works very well over the grand scheme of things.  I do not think the c-section rate has dropped dramatically in the past 20 years.  There is a culture of fear around birth that has not changed.  I do think advocacy can help individual women and that is worth a lot - but it does not add up to huge numbers.

 

 

 

 

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Old 05-23-2011, 09:39 AM
 
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It totally makes sense to me.

 

I had 2 c-sections. Back when I was still making peace with them, I often found myself in conversations with women who needed to determine if I was in the 5% of truly necessary, or in the 35% of not necessary but too stupid to realize it.  I most likely had more of those conversations than many c-section moms because my life revolved about LLL, AP support group, and mothering.com. 

 

It got really, really old. I got really sick of telling my story. I got really tired of women who got the births they wanted feeling they had the right to judge my births.

 

So while I agree with you about the numbers, I think that how you ACT about them is quite another thing.


I guess that's the whole point in a nutshell.  I do fail to see how the OP's post steps on anyone's toes.  She wasn't picking apart all births, she was just expressing a great likely hood of what she "fear".  It was here on the message board where no one knows her, not to her sil. 

 


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Old 05-26-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

I think, as always, this conversation devolves into an intense emotional space, particularly for those women who have had c-sections. 

 

What is important to note is that there is a differentiation between women who have had c-sections and the fact that more women are given c-sections than may be necessary due to the birth culture. We know, for example. that in the US, c-section rates are reaching toward 40%, and yet the WHO asserts that in a developed nation, it should be less than 5%. 

 

As a natural/vaginal birth advocate, I take issue with this situation, and I am very fearful of women who simply go to birth with doctors and hospitals. I fear that in the heat of the moment (circumstances such as the pain of pitocin, a panicky nurse or relative, etc) the doctor will -- as one poster put it -- "dangle" the c-section in front of the mother as an easy solution, and then she takes it.

 


 

 

One thing this discussion needs, of course, is honesty.  

 

Where does your "Less than 5%" statistic come from?   Everything I've read, and everything I am finding right now, says that WHO's recommendation is that the section rate should be no higher than "10-15% in developed countries."

 

That's a big difference right there -- a factor of 2-3 times as high as the number you just cited.

 

For natural childbirth advocates to be credible and persuasive, we need to be truthful and realistic.   When the person you're trying to convince can consult Google to quickly learn that you've made that large an error -- and are grossly overrepresenting your case about how many sections are "unneccesary," what other things are they going to doubt you on?  

 

There's plenty of true things to say about the direction in which birth is being taken without strengthening one's argument through wilful misuse of facts.


savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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Old 05-26-2011, 10:38 AM
 
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I have heard 10% or so as well.  I think our C-section rate is around 25-30%.  Exact figures do not matter though - what does matter is the C-section rate is higher than it medically should be.  Her figures might be off as far as I understand it, but her point isn't.

 

I also think the words "wilful misuse of facts" is assumptive.  

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Old 05-26-2011, 10:43 AM
 
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It totally makes sense to me.

 

I had 2 c-sections. Back when I was still making peace with them, I often found myself in conversations with women who needed to determine if I was in the 5% of truly necessary, or in the 35% of not necessary but too stupid to realize it.  I most likely had more of those conversations than many c-section moms because my life revolved about LLL, AP support group, and mothering.com. 

 

It got really, really old. I got really sick of telling my story. I got really tired of women who got the births they wanted feeling they had the right to judge my births.

 

So while I agree with you about the numbers, I think that how you ACT about them is quite another thing.


I agree. And many times the mother herself doesn't really know whether she's part of the "necessary" or "unnecessary" group. IME, very few and far between are the women who sit around tittering about scheduling c-sections to coincide with the Superbowl, or who plan a section so their vajayjay will stay tight -- I don't really think I've ever come across a women who has said such a thing. All the women I know who have had a c-section have a complicated story to tell, and conflicting feelings about it. That's how my own story is. On one hand, I know for a fact that the anesthesiologist pushed lidocaine because he misunderstood what a nurse said, and then I was paralyzed and had to have a section. But the official story they gave me was that my placenta abrupted and so, whether or not the medication had been pushed early, I would have required an emergency section. The cynical side of me says that they're just covering their ass by pretending there was an abruption, but another part of me wants that to be true so that I don't have to rage against the stupid anesthesiologist for making me go through unnecessary surgery. I even ordered my hospital records, and it's unclear to me what really transpired, so I'll never know which percentage I'm part of. 

 

One thing I will say, regarding the "what's important is the healthy baby" thing -- of course that's true, but when people said that to me after DD was born I felt like it invalidated my grief about how the birth process went. Of course I was happy to have a healthy baby, but the way she came into the world was upsetting to me (I heard the anesthesiologist say, "Oh, I thought I was supposed to push lidocaine!" right after the nurse said a panicky, "What did you just do??"), and I hated when people glossed over it. I know they were just trying to be positive, but it was important for me to take the time to acknowledge that what happened was upsetting so that I could move past it. But I did move past it, so if a woman encountered me now she might think I was totally fine with my c/s, and might even lump me into the Superbowl category I guess. I can't control that, but I totally agree with Linda that not every woman I encounter is entitled to know all the intimate details of my birth experience and my feelings about it. 


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