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#61 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wytchywoman View Post





Why? Is it because the govt screws up most of what it touches? I agree that there will be issues, some of the significant, with govt run healthcare. But having to make the choice between govt run health care and no health care at all, I'll take my chances with the govt. It's better than nothing.


Yup.  I think healthcare is screwed up badly, but having the government run it would make things even worse.

 


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#62 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 08:42 AM
 
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I'm interested in this type of insurance (and will probably research it, but not at 6:30 in the morning) but I do want to point out that where I live ONLY a hospital with a doctor would be covered. Insurance does not cover midwifery in states where the practice is illegal. (ie. Kentucky)

This looks pretty awesome to me, because other than some prenatal care, bith and the occasional well visit we are not really big on going to the doctor. If I was going to pay $700 a month I could have just paid cash for everything so far.



Ive been waiting for someone from the free medical world to weigh in. I would love to pay more in taxes for everyone to have free healthcare, and wouldnt complain about it a bit. In fact, if our country would quit spending so much money on wars we would already be over halfway there.

Thanks for saying the bolded. That is exactly how I feel about it.



LMAO what you said about wars is exactly how my dd feels.  She is eleven and wants to help poor people so bad.

 

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#63 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 08:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hildare View Post

did you ever see this article?  i think it's hilarious meself:  half of US social program recipients believe they haven't ever used a government program... (ok the link is from boingboing but it actually links & cites legit info)

you know, AM, some people are just jerks.  some people are classist.  some people are ignorant by choice, and some people listen to some really awful sources and choose to believe those rather than think for themselves.  just remember that when you deal with judgey people or just plain idiots. 

personally, i think that people who think it's up to them to decide who should be having children are the class A problem.  like the radiohead song, you would be first against a wall.  it's ok to say that, it's just my opinion, right?  ok, that was very inappropriate. 

 

sorry.  i get a little worked up about it.  however, i think also it's funny that people equate income level to quality of life.  it doesn't really work that way.  just cause you can buy your kids a bunch of crap doesn't mean they are any happier than they would be otherwise, you know.  that's just what they want you to think so we keep arguing, judging and fighting each other and don't think about where our money really goes. 

look at the cost of war.  how much healthcare and quality education might we provide for that?  i don't think a mama getting foodstamps is the problem here guys. 



Thanks hildare...I showed dd that site..it is so depressing.

 

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#64 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 08:57 AM
 
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It's that kind of setup that causes people to compete for social services.  It's not the people who are getting help who are the ones who are at fault, it's the way the whole system is set up.  There are all kinds of stigmatized social welfare and people who recieve those social benefits are seen as having flawed character.  That's how we can justify the inequalities that are so obvious.  Really, is the senator or CEO really a more deserving person? Does he/she have better character?  Is hard work really the way to get ahead?  I've seen some very hard working poor people.  I get social welfare through student loans, child tax credits and attend a state university, so my tuition is subsidized. The social welfare that I need is not stigmatized. 

 

It just feels to me like people don't see the real issue. 

Here's a line of poverty stats from the census bureau

"Between 2008 and 2009, the poverty rate increased for non-Hispanic Whites (from 8.6 percent to 9.4 percent), for Blacks (from 24.7 percent to 25.8 percent), and for Hispanics (from 23.2 percent to 25.3 percent). For Asians, the 2009 poverty rate (12.5 percent) was not statistically different from the 2008 poverty rate.1"" 

 

 

Google Wealth distribution and see what you can find.  Here's an article that sums it up quite nicely.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph 

 

We pay a lot for medical as well and our coverage isn't that great.  I don't even bother with it unless we have an emergency.  I just negotiate cash with my doctor. 

 

When my first child was born, we were on medicaid.  I went to one doctor visit as a medicaid recipient.  It was horrible...a 2 hour wait to see the pediatrician in a crowded room full of sick children and being one week post partum.  I was just sitting there crying after the 1.5 hour mark and that's probably the only reason they finally got us to the doctor.  If I didn't feel unworthy or stigmatized before, I certainly did after that visit. 

 



Yes the wait has happened to me and people I know...WORKING WOMEN.  And then treated with contempt for daring to complain about the wait when we were trying to get to work on time.  it is bs.  Plain and simple. And I don't mean that moms who stay home should be treated that way either...my point is that they just assume I have nothing better to do after the appointment then go home and watch Jerry Springer and smoke I guess...I consider all mothers working mothers.

 

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#65 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post



Totally okay to say. Just sayin'





Well, I dont believe health care should be privatized, so IMO everyone deserves government sponsored healthcare. In the world that I wish for, health care is a right not a privilege.



I understand that you are angry, and you have every right to be. Im sorry your daughter cant get the proper care she needs, but dont you think it would be better if ALL healthcare was covered for everyone? Im sure you do, but in the meantime it seems like you are mad at people who are getting better care than you when you should really be mad that the providers.



One of my main complaints about people who want to say things like "sometimes its about affording another child, not deserving one" (I cant find the quote and dont remember who said it, sorry) is that I have a limit on myself for how many years I will have children. Im perfectly fine with other people having children at later ages, but for me and DH our absolute cutoff is 35 for several reasons, one of which being the higher risk factor.

Other than healthcare I afford my child(ren) just fine. We have two growing businesses, and will be hiring employees at some point, creating jobs for others. Its not like we are deadbeats here, but people love to make moms on medicaid feel like they "cant afford" their children. I can afford my kids, I just cant afford to pay for insane healthcare rates. And, no, if I didnt qualify for medicaid, I wouldnt have another kid.

In ten years, when we have a universal or single payer system I will be able to afford kids just fine, and Ill be kicking myself for not using the help that I qualify for to create a family. We all know this health care system isnt going to stay the way it is, so why are so many people so judgy judgy when it comes to people recieving help? Oh yeah, ignorance and classism.



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#66 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post




Yup.  I think healthcare is screwed up badly, but having the government run it would make things even worse.

 


I don't know.

 

From what I have read/observed, etc most people who live in countries with universal health care are happy to live with such systems.  That does not mean there are not flaws - but overall they are grateful to have universal heath care.

 

Why do you think the USA would be different?  Is the USA government less capable of handling things? headscratch.gif (I don't think so).  Or...do you think it is a line they are trying to sell to prevent change and maintain the status quo for those who thrive from the status quo?

 

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#67 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:11 AM
 
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I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

Ack, I am rambling and getting off topic but I just felt like I had read as much as I could without saying something. 

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#68 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

 i DO feel that the government owes us all something.  (and personally i think it owes me the favor of ceasing to exist, but whatcha gonna do)

the people who will be paying for the "free" healthcare you mention are the people who live with enough privilege to be able to earn that much money in the first place, frequently because of and taking advantage of those of us who lack privilege and earn far less. 

so you dislike social security as well?  how about war? 

how about leaders for whom we provide health care?  did you ever think about the benefit packages your elected officials enjoy? they seem to be getting tax dollars to supplement their insurance premiums which are way less than my own.  (though i should not complain.  i have the option to spend a bunch of my income on insurance, which makes me luckier than many) 

funny how people cannot critically view other things with as much distaste as they can social programs for people who don't earn much. 

what do you think the us would be like if social programs stop?  think about that for a few minutes. 

and i do pretty much hate the idea of nationalistic imaginary borders.  but i ain't going anywhere because i really really enjoy trying to change it here. and being a thorn in the side of people who like it as it is ;)

 

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#69 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

Ack, I am rambling and getting off topic but I just felt like I had read as much as I could without saying something. 


They do owe us something. Its OUR government. It is there to run OUR country. It isnt its own entity that makes desicions without bothering to consult us or give a crap what we want and need(Oh, wait. Yes, it is duh.gif). More than 56% of the presidents constituants voted him in because they wanted Universal Health Care. Not healthcare reform that actually hasnt changed much of anything. They are taking taxes from us, and our health care system, our schools, and our welfare system is all a joke amongst more first world countries. I think its very clear what our "government" is interested in. Not health care, not education, not social welfare, not taking care of its people, but oil, war, and bombing the crap out of other countries. You know, when its not busy trying to steal away our human rights. (lets not forget that the governement is made up of people. People that say they are going to do one thing and then dont do it. People who are supposed to look out for the American people, not just the rich American people.)

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#70 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. 

 

Well, yes it does.  That is the raison d'etre of government.

 

The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care.

 

 

The 8000 thing is funny and makes no sense.  You cannot get back in taxes more than you pay in - it does not work that way.  Now you can get back through social spending programs more than you put in - but that is a different thing

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

I responded and I am Canadian.  2 New Zealanders also responded, as did someone from Europe.  There are things the USA does right  (it could make a fun thread sometime!), but there are things they can work on.  Numerous people from numerous countries have come on saying -hey, there is a better way!  Why not be willing to learn from countries who have a higher satsifaction rate with their health care? (and it is less costly to individuals to boot)?

 

Sorry it has come across as USA bashing.  It is very difficult to post on these thread without sounding USA bashing.  OTOH, it is hard to keep quiet when you know other ways work better for many countries, ways that do not leave so many families hurting.



 

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#71 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:50 AM
 
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if you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd see most people discussing the systems in other countries ARE living there. it's not so easy to say "move there if you don't like it here" because unless you're a trained, well-educated professional (healthcare especially, plus some other fields) we (gov'ts of countries with socialized med) don't WANT you to move here. and chances are if you are a well educated professional in an in-demand field, you have a job in the US that already provides insurance. it's the people that don't necessarily have the kind of professional training, or some other kind of job skills that make them desirable to the gov'ts of other countries who are really struggling to get by on the broken, corrupt and unethical system that the US boasts. so just cause you aren't a nurse or a computer engineer or a psychologist, you don't deserve to have proper healthcare and some modicum of social assistance if things get rough? 

 

i live in montreal. there are lots of things broken about the system that i live with. a whole freaking tunnel practically collapsed yesterday, basically shutting off access to the downtown core to thousands of commuters. there's corruption and misuse of public funds in the construction and infrastructure industries here, and the ministry was in on it. so yeah, that's a bad thing that needs to get fixed and i'm sure it will.

 

there are weird things about our health care system too, but for the most part, you get the care you need WHEN you need it, and you don't have to worry about whether you are an important enough member of society to qualify. the perks are still there (like we can afford the supplemental insurance to use a semi-private clinic, eye and dental etc) to "reward" people for having well off enough parents to afford to go to university and grad school and get a full time job with nice benefits eyesroll.gif so we're hardly communists! 

 

obviously the other problem with your argument, poorlittlefish and others, is that people ARE trying to vote for change. they are desperately trying to change things, but the system is so entwined and complicated and reliant on corrupt elements that you think you're voting for change and suddenly you end up with a platter of crap that looks suspiciously similar to the platter of crap you were handed last time.

 

we have the same problem here. i'm seriously terrified that the social benefits and parts of gov't assistance and spending that i care most about are going to vanish any day now, because the people that we get to vote for don't necessarily have our best interests in mind. if we (canadians) get a little huffy about the US system, you'll have to forgive us... there is a long history of the US very much affecting the direction that things go here and so it scares us to see more and more and more social benefits and assistance and basic human rights just get eroded away. 

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#72 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 09:54 AM
 
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I am on medicaid but it's not free--$60 a month for my dd and $125 for me. Then I have a $1500 deductible for non-preventative care, and now that I've meet that my insurance pays for 80%--I pay the other 20% out of pocket. Then there are many things they just don't pay for. It's crappy heath insurance. My sate does things a bit differently than many other states though. If I made less I would pay less and have better insurance. And yes, I got pregnant with my wonderful baby knowing that when she was born I would work less hours and then I would go on medicaid, and wic, and I'm looking into food stamps. And I sure don't feel guilty about it! I deserve to be a mama, and I'm a good one, and my dd deserves good food and medical care. Being poor doesn't make you undeserving of a good life.

 

 

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#73 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

Ack, I am rambling and getting off topic but I just felt like I had read as much as I could without saying something. 

For starters, there is a difference between voicing a legitimate concern and bashing the USA. I like my country very much, but I refuse to be blindly patriotic and live in denial about the problems our country has. As for moving to Canada (or someplace else)...why should I be forced to immigrate? Why can't our county spend money on it's own citizens, for things that it's own citizens need and have asked for. As a PP mentioned 64%  of our citizens want universal health care. Over HALF of this country feels that is a necessity. So why should our govt ignore over half of its constituents? It isn't shut up and like what you have or leave....there's nothing wrong with insisting that a govt that is elected by the people be held accountable by the people.
 

 


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#74 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

What's your objection to government run "health" care?

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes. 

I don't exactly think the government "owes" people anything. But, I do think the government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. They're the servants of the public, not the masters of the public (well, they're supposed to be). And, you know...even people who don't pay a lot of taxes often contribute to the economy and society around them in a variety of ways. If someone is getting $8000 in assistance (and that's not taxes - you don't get back more in taxes than you earn in the first place!), then she's probably in a pretty bad place right now. That doesn't mean she should be left out to hang if she has a heart attack or develops cancer. Maybe that person is just coasting (although the one person I know personally who fits this bill has serious mental health challenges), and maybe she's contributing to her society in other ways, yk? Maybe she babysits for free so that someone else can go to work and earn money to live on (and pay taxes!). Maybe she does a lot of volunteer or charity work. We're all in a web of interdependency and interconnectedness, and trying to isolate people and say "this person doesn't pay enough tax, so they don't contribute" is flawed thinking.

 

This is all doubly true, in light of the fact that substances, manufacturing processes, additives, etc. of dubious safety, healthy benefits, etc. are routinely allowed to be sold as "food". Sometihing's really screwed up when kids are being fed unhealthy, illness promoting "foods" in schools, and then being told "you're don't have enough worth as a human being to get medical care".

 

The goverment owes the public its best efforts to serve the needs of said public...not the "needs" of corporations, and not lining their own pockets with fat benefits that they deny to other people. They owe the public their best efforts to serve the public. That's what they're there for.

 

Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Do you have the numbers to prove that? I'm going to guess that a whole lot more money has been spent in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last few years than has been spent on social assistance. And, while some people do stay on welfare for life, a lot of people use social assistance to get back on their feet, and become economically productive again. If they're just written off, they don't have the chance to do that. This especially applies to medical care! If someone can't afford treatment, then conditions that start off as fairly minor and easily treated can develop into much more serious, and even life threatening, conditions.

 

I'm not getting into the complicated back story, but I know a young man who complained of a toothache for months. It could have been handled in a quick office visit with a dentist. While he didn't end up needing expensive treatment, he did end up with a face that looked as if he'd been punched in the nose - bruises all across his face under his eyes, because the toothache was an abscess and the infection had spread through most of his face. If he hadn't seen a dentist when he did, it could, and probably would, have killed him. The reason he didn't see a dentist? His mom didn't have the money to pay for it. YMMV, but I'd rather see $80 of my taxes go to a filling or tooth removal for a child living in poverty, than see the same child die of an easily treatable dental abscess. That young man may end up with a decent job, paying his taxes, etc. He may end up being a SAHD (he's amazing with little kids). He may end up doing a series of crappy, low-paying jobs, where he doesn't "contribute" (because he pays no, or little, taxes), but does work. But, whatever he does, he'll do it, because he survived the abscess. He didn't actually get government help, but he would have qualified for it, and I would have had NO issue with that at all. I think the lives of our citizens are worth more than holding onto every penny of "our share".

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

If people hate the way the US is run, but still consider it home, and are working to change things, then why the heck should they move?? Aside from the fact that Canada is a separate country, and US citizens can't actually just say, "oh, I've decided to live in Canada" and pack their bags, they shouldn't have to move here, just because they don't like the way things are going in the US. I'm not crazy about our current government, either. That doesn't mean that I should just move away from the place where I grew up, and my siblings grew up, and my parents grew up, and my grandparents grew up. I don't know how you feel about your country, but I think my country is more than whatever idiot is currently "in charge". Loving Canada doesn't mean I have to love Stephen Harper...and loving the US doesn't mean anybody has to love the asinine lock the "two" parties have on your political system. I think if the people who "bash" the US all left, you'd find your country in a really ugly state, to be honest. You need the people who "bash", because otherwise, the government is a functional dictatorship.

 

The system is very much stacked against people who grow up in poverty. That's true in Canada, too, but not to the same degree as in the US. I think both our countries can do better...and medical is very basic thing to leave people high and dry on.

 

 

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#75 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 10:50 AM
 
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so you dislike social security as well? 

 



Yes I do.  I am better equipped to fund my retirement than the government.  If I invested the money they took out of my paycheck for SS I have no doubt I would end up with more than they will when I retire.


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#76 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 11:10 AM
 
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OK, not sure how to do quotes so I hope that I am doing this right but...

 

Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

 

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

What's your objection to government run "health" care?

 

I object to the cost, I object to the government running the program.

 

 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes. 

I don't exactly think the government "owes" people anything. But, I do think the government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. They're the servants of the public, not the masters of the public (well, they're supposed to be). And, you know...even people who don't pay a lot of taxes often contribute to the economy and society around them in a variety of ways. If someone is getting $8000 in assistance (and that's not taxes - you don't get back more in taxes than you earn in the first place!), then she's probably in a pretty bad place right now. That doesn't mean she should be left out to hang if she has a heart attack or develops cancer. Maybe that person is just coasting (although the one person I know personally who fits this bill has serious mental health challenges), and maybe she's contributing to her society in other ways, yk? Maybe she babysits for free so that someone else can go to work and earn money to live on (and pay taxes!). Maybe she does a lot of volunteer or charity work. We're all in a web of interdependency and interconnectedness, and trying to isolate people and say "this person doesn't pay enough tax, so they don't contribute" is flawed thinking.

 

I mis-spoke.  I mean, they got back more than they paid in in taxes--google Earned Income Credit.  I don't know that I believe that the government exists to help people, I mean, to a certain degree, yes.  But I am a believer in small government and government run health care only serves to expand government.  I don't know all the details of this woman's life, and what you've said may be true and I don't begrudge her a leg up, if needed but I do believe we all need to pay our own way.  This is not my origional though, obviously, but people get caught up in this web of getting money from the government and they lose the incentive to do better for themselves.  I am not a poor people hater so please don't accuse me of that.  I just don't think that government assistance is always truly a help.   

 

This is all doubly true, in light of the fact that substances, manufacturing processes, additives, etc. of dubious safety, healthy benefits, etc. are routinely allowed to be sold as "food". Sometihing's really screwed up when kids are being fed unhealthy, illness promoting "foods" in schools, and then being told "you're don't have enough worth as a human being to get medical care".

 

Again, I just feel like we are blaming others for the problems.  Yes, schools food isn't great.  Then pack a lunch and who is saying you don't have enough worth to get medical care?  I'm not saying that??? 

 

The goverment owes the public its best efforts to serve the needs of said public...not the "needs" of corporations, and not lining their own pockets with fat benefits that they deny to other people. They owe the public their best efforts to serve the public. That's what they're there for.

 

Here we go. Hating the big corporations.....do big corporations not provide jobs for people?  Then those people in turn pay taxes?  And that tax money goes to the government?  I just don't get the mentality behind hating big corporations.

 

 

Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Do you have the numbers to prove that? I'm going to guess that a whole lot more money has been spent in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last few years than has been spent on social assistance. And, while some people do stay on welfare for life, a lot of people use social assistance to get back on their feet, and become economically productive again. If they're just written off, they don't have the chance to do that. This especially applies to medical care! If someone can't afford treatment, then conditions that start off as fairly minor and easily treated can develop into much more serious, and even life threatening, conditions.

 

You just need to turn on any news channel to see that we have raised the debt ceiling AGAIN.  Government run health care is going to add layer after expensive layer to our already bloated government.  That is expensive. 

 

I'm not getting into the complicated back story, but I know a young man who complained of a toothache for months. It could have been handled in a quick office visit with a dentist. While he didn't end up needing expensive treatment, he did end up with a face that looked as if he'd been punched in the nose - bruises all across his face under his eyes, because the toothache was an abscess and the infection had spread through most of his face. If he hadn't seen a dentist when he did, it could, and probably would, have killed him. The reason he didn't see a dentist? His mom didn't have the money to pay for it. YMMV, but I'd rather see $80 of my taxes go to a filling or tooth removal for a child living in poverty, than see the same child die of an easily treatable dental abscess. That young man may end up with a decent job, paying his taxes, etc. He may end up being a SAHD (he's amazing with little kids). He may end up doing a series of crappy, low-paying jobs, where he doesn't "contribute" (because he pays no, or little, taxes), but does work. But, whatever he does, he'll do it, because he survived the abscess. He didn't actually get government help, but he would have qualified for it, and I would have had NO issue with that at all. I think the lives of our citizens are worth more than holding onto every penny of "our share".

 

People on this site always talk about how openminded they are but if I disagree with having government run health care the all of the sudden everyone thinks that I hate poor people.  I am a human, I don't like to see suffering and I said that I believe that there needs to be reform to the current system but I don't want the government running it. 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

If people hate the way the US is run, but still consider it home, and are working to change things, then why the heck should they move?? Aside from the fact that Canada is a separate country, and US citizens can't actually just say, "oh, I've decided to live in Canada" and pack their bags, they shouldn't have to move here, just because they don't like the way things are going in the US. I'm not crazy about our current government, either. That doesn't mean that I should just move away from the place where I grew up, and my siblings grew up, and my parents grew up, and my grandparents grew up. I don't know how you feel about your country, but I think my country is more than whatever idiot is currently "in charge". Loving Canada doesn't mean I have to love Stephen Harper...and loving the US doesn't mean anybody has to love the asinine lock the "two" parties have on your political system. I think if the people who "bash" the US all left, you'd find your country in a really ugly state, to be honest. You need the people who "bash", because otherwise, the government is a functional dictatorship.

 

The system is very much stacked against people who grow up in poverty. That's true in Canada, too, but not to the same degree as in the US. I think both our countries can do better...and medical is very basic thing to leave people high and dry on.

 

Go ahead, disagree with how it is run, work to change things but someone in this thread said that they were beginning to hate the US.  They said those words.  People in my family have fought and died for this country and when people say that, it burns me.  Also, I don't think that bashing the government is the same as having conversations about what they think is wrong and working to fix it.  Bashing doesn't help anything. 

 




 

 



 

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#77 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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poorlittlefish,
Personally, I think people hold way too much stock in what the news channels tells them. Big corporations do provide jobs, and the people who work for them pay taxes. But does that exempt them from paying taxes? Why is it that JP Morgan paid less in taxes last year than my small, one employee landscaping business. Ill bet all of their CEOs can afford damn good health care, but poor them poor them please dont make them pay taxes?!!!

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Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes.  Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

Ack, I am rambling and getting off topic but I just felt like I had read as much as I could without saying something. 



 

Here is something I recently learned about taxes (in the US). There are many different kinds of taxes, not just federal. There are state and local income taxes too which vary in the percentage lower, middle and high incomes pay. There are sales taxes which are paid by anyone locally who purchase items, regardless of income. Similarly there are utility, gas and other taxes not related to income.

 

There are also payroll taxes (social security, unemployment and medicare) which come out of everyone’s paycheck regardless of income level. However, there is a limit on payroll taxes and anyone making more than $100,000 does not pay more. So in that case the only people getting a break are the rich. Most of the money in this combined pot come from the lower 90% of earners.

 

The top wealthiest people in the US pay the least amount of taxes. Yet they drive on the same roads and call the police the same as the neighbors. When we are thinking about pooling a percentage of everyone’s money and using it to better everyone’s lives… it doesn’t make sense to have the richest folks pay the least and expect everyone else to make up the difference.

 

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Our quotes are getting layered, so this is getting harder to read....but I'm not sure how to fix it right now..

 

OK, not sure how to do quotes so I hope that I am doing this right but...

 

Originally Posted by poorlittlefish View Post

 

I agree, I also am not in favor of government run healthcare although I do think changes need to be made. 

 

What's your objection to government run "health" care?

 

I object to the cost, I object to the government running the program.

 

Fair enough. Who do you think should run it?

 

 

The thing that really gets me down on threads like this is the attitude that the government owes us all something. The poorest people in the US pay very little or no taxes so who will be paying for this "free" healthcare?   I remember reading on another thread about how someone gets about $8K back in taxes every year which is WAY more than she makes. 

I don't exactly think the government "owes" people anything. But, I do think the government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. They're the servants of the public, not the masters of the public (well, they're supposed to be). And, you know...even people who don't pay a lot of taxes often contribute to the economy and society around them in a variety of ways. If someone is getting $8000 in assistance (and that's not taxes - you don't get back more in taxes than you earn in the first place!), then she's probably in a pretty bad place right now. That doesn't mean she should be left out to hang if she has a heart attack or develops cancer. Maybe that person is just coasting (although the one person I know personally who fits this bill has serious mental health challenges), and maybe she's contributing to her society in other ways, yk? Maybe she babysits for free so that someone else can go to work and earn money to live on (and pay taxes!). Maybe she does a lot of volunteer or charity work. We're all in a web of interdependency and interconnectedness, and trying to isolate people and say "this person doesn't pay enough tax, so they don't contribute" is flawed thinking.

 

I mis-spoke.  I mean, they got back more than they paid in in taxes--google Earned Income Credit.  I don't know that I believe that the government exists to help people, I mean, to a certain degree, yes.  But I am a believer in small government and government run health care only serves to expand government.  I don't know all the details of this woman's life, and what you've said may be true and I don't begrudge her a leg up, if needed but I do believe we all need to pay our own way.  This is not my origional though, obviously, but people get caught up in this web of getting money from the government and they lose the incentive to do better for themselves.  I am not a poor people hater so please don't accuse me of that.  I just don't think that government assistance is always truly a help.   

 

I know what you mean about people getting caught up in getting money from the government. I've seen it first hand, in more than one case. I will admit that I'm not sure what it has to do with medical care, though. It's not like people can just get a do-it-yourself surgical procedure, yk? And, I also suspect (based on my own observations) that the people who get that caught up in getting money from the government are going to suffer from serious entitlement issues, anyway - and they cause problems for other people wherever they go. Having worked with a couple of them, I'd honestly prefer to see these people on welfare, where my taxes may go to support them, but at least they're not actively getting in my way. YMMV.

 

 

This is all doubly true, in light of the fact that substances, manufacturing processes, additives, etc. of dubious safety, healthy benefits, etc. are routinely allowed to be sold as "food". Sometihing's really screwed up when kids are being fed unhealthy, illness promoting "foods" in schools, and then being told "you're don't have enough worth as a human being to get medical care".

 

Again, I just feel like we are blaming others for the problems.  Yes, schools food isn't great.  Then pack a lunch and who is saying you don't have enough worth to get medical care?  I'm not saying that??? 

 

If we're saying that there shouldn't be public/government run "health" care, then you're saying it should be a system of private insurance. Therefore, your ability to receive medical treatment depends on your worth, as defined by the dollar value of your assets/investments. You can't have it both ways. And, if you can't afford to pack a lunch (some people can't), then the child is just screwed. If the shcool doesn't allow bag lunches (yes, I've heard of this, but only in the US, so I haven't experienced it first-hand), then your child is required to either miss meals or eat things that are unhealthy.

 

 

The goverment owes the public its best efforts to serve the needs of said public...not the "needs" of corporations, and not lining their own pockets with fat benefits that they deny to other people. They owe the public their best efforts to serve the public. That's what they're there for.

 

Here we go. Hating the big corporations.....do big corporations not provide jobs for people?  Then those people in turn pay taxes?  And that tax money goes to the government?  I just don't get the mentality behind hating big corporations.

 

My post had nothing to do with hating big corporations (although I'm not fond of them) and nothing to do with jobs or taxes. (Lots of small business give people jobs, too - until they get shoved out of business by big companies.) I was talking about government...government that governs according to which wealthy lobbyists buy them off most effectively. I can't really blame big corporations for submering their ethics in the quest for profit - profit is why they exist, after all. (I wish they'd take ethical considerations more seriously, but having read a few articles about business ethics, I don't expect it anytime soon. They're quite upfront in such articles that ethical behaviour within a corporation is behaviour that turns a profit for shareholders. Period.) But, I do blame the "people's representatives" for representing their own wallets, instead of doing the job they were elected to do.

 

And, honestly...a whole lot of big corporations provide as few jobs as they possibly can to get the job done. I don't object to them making a profit, but let's not pretend they "give" people jobs out of the goodness of their hearts, yk? How many jobs have big corporations taken off shore? Do those jobs pay taxes in the US? Those companies are still making a profit off US customers, but they're not employing Americans (obviously, they still employ Americans, but not if they can avoid it).

 

Things like this are going to bankrupt this country and no one seems to care. 

 

Do you have the numbers to prove that? I'm going to guess that a whole lot more money has been spent in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last few years than has been spent on social assistance. And, while some people do stay on welfare for life, a lot of people use social assistance to get back on their feet, and become economically productive again. If they're just written off, they don't have the chance to do that. This especially applies to medical care! If someone can't afford treatment, then conditions that start off as fairly minor and easily treated can develop into much more serious, and even life threatening, conditions.

 

You just need to turn on any news channel to see that we have raised the debt ceiling AGAIN.  Government run health care is going to add layer after expensive layer to our already bloated government.  That is expensive. 

 

Yes. Your government is in big trouble. I asked, specifically, why you're blaming that on "things like this" (ie. the woman who posted about getting the $8,000). That stuff is a drop in the bucket, compared to the money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

I'm not getting into the complicated back story, but I know a young man who complained of a toothache for months. It could have been handled in a quick office visit with a dentist. While he didn't end up needing expensive treatment, he did end up with a face that looked as if he'd been punched in the nose - bruises all across his face under his eyes, because the toothache was an abscess and the infection had spread through most of his face. If he hadn't seen a dentist when he did, it could, and probably would, have killed him. The reason he didn't see a dentist? His mom didn't have the money to pay for it. YMMV, but I'd rather see $80 of my taxes go to a filling or tooth removal for a child living in poverty, than see the same child die of an easily treatable dental abscess. That young man may end up with a decent job, paying his taxes, etc. He may end up being a SAHD (he's amazing with little kids). He may end up doing a series of crappy, low-paying jobs, where he doesn't "contribute" (because he pays no, or little, taxes), but does work. But, whatever he does, he'll do it, because he survived the abscess. He didn't actually get government help, but he would have qualified for it, and I would have had NO issue with that at all. I think the lives of our citizens are worth more than holding onto every penny of "our share".

 

People on this site always talk about how openminded they are but if I disagree with having government run health care the all of the sudden everyone thinks that I hate poor people.  I am a human, I don't like to see suffering and I said that I believe that there needs to be reform to the current system but I don't want the government running it. 

 

Okay. You don't hate poor people. I guess I just want to know, if you think poor people still deserve to receive some kind of medical care, and not suffer, even if they can't pay for it, what do you think is the answer? Private insurance isn't going to operate without a profit, so they're not going to insure poor people who can't pay. If private insurers won't do it, and the government shouldn't do it...then, who should? I believe you that you don't hate poor people, and don't want to see them suffer...so where should their treatment come from, if not profit-based private programs or the government?

 

 

Also, I know that I am going to get flamed for this but I also hate all the USA bashing that goes on, if Canada is so great, then move there!  We can all disagree with how things are run, voice our opinions but when people say that they hate the US, it really gets my hackles up.

 

If people hate the way the US is run, but still consider it home, and are working to change things, then why the heck should they move?? Aside from the fact that Canada is a separate country, and US citizens can't actually just say, "oh, I've decided to live in Canada" and pack their bags, they shouldn't have to move here, just because they don't like the way things are going in the US. I'm not crazy about our current government, either. That doesn't mean that I should just move away from the place where I grew up, and my siblings grew up, and my parents grew up, and my grandparents grew up. I don't know how you feel about your country, but I think my country is more than whatever idiot is currently "in charge". Loving Canada doesn't mean I have to love Stephen Harper...and loving the US doesn't mean anybody has to love the asinine lock the "two" parties have on your political system. I think if the people who "bash" the US all left, you'd find your country in a really ugly state, to be honest. You need the people who "bash", because otherwise, the government is a functional dictatorship.

 

The system is very much stacked against people who grow up in poverty. That's true in Canada, too, but not to the same degree as in the US. I think both our countries can do better...and medical is very basic thing to leave people high and dry on.

 

Go ahead, disagree with how it is run, work to change things but someone in this thread said that they were beginning to hate the US.  They said those words.  People in my family have fought and died for this country and when people say that, it burns me.  Also, I don't think that bashing the government is the same as having conversations about what they think is wrong and working to fix it.  Bashing doesn't help anything. 

 

I've also heard people who have fought for the US say they're starting to hate the US. What does one have to do with the other? I've got to say that, from the outside, I can't imagine wjy anyone would fight or die for your country...because it wouldn't be for your country. It would be to line someone's pockets. You guys can do what you want to change the government - they're not running the show, anyway. Those big corporations who "provide" all those jobs are way more in charge than any Republicrat. DH and I almost moved down there a few years ago, for various reasons (dh is American). You couldn't pay me to live there now. I'm just really grateful that I, unlike any number of poor people who are already there, don't have to.


 

 



 


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#80 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 12:37 PM
 
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Corporations now have the King and it’s kingdom mentality with society. When a large corporation moves into town, woo’d by the local government by being offered huge tax breaks. Money that would otherwise go to helping build roads, provide social services and environmental protection. Instead the villagers will pay from their pockets. In the exchange the King offers his protection by promising jobs and sometimes donations to local schools and non profits. The villagers get so worried that the protection will be taken away, they happily agree to whatever demands the King asks for.

 

Unfortunately, corporations have no interest in the village, just the bottom line. They will up and leave town as soon as the tax breaks stop, the laws change or the labour is cheap someplace else. And the amount of outsourcing jobs to other countries has made this an even bigger joke.

 

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What it boils down to, with me, is that prisoners are given medical care, including organ transplants, because to deny them care would be cruel and unusual.  Yet regular law-abiding citizens are being denied healthcare every single day.  Tell me, how the hell does that make sense?

 

No, I'm not a big fan of our government, but our government doesn't define our country.  As in, I can bash our government without bashing my country.  Our government is laughably ineffective.  But telling people who don't like it to leave is really offensive, particularly when some of us (ahem) have been here before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

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What it boils down to, with me, is that prisoners are given medical care, including organ transplants, because to deny them care would be cruel and unusual.  Yet regular law-abiding citizens are being denied healthcare every single day.  Tell me, how the hell does that make sense?

 

No, I'm not a big fan of our government, but our government doesn't define our country.  As in, I can bash our government without bashing my country.  Our government is laughably ineffective.  But telling people who don't like it to leave is really offensive, particularly when some of us (ahem) have been here before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.



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For starters, there is a difference between voicing a legitimate concern and bashing the USA. I like my country very much, but I refuse to be blindly patriotic and live in denial about the problems our country has. As for moving to Canada (or someplace else)...why should I be forced to immigrate? Why can't our county spend money on it's own citizens, for things that it's own citizens need and have asked for. As a PP mentioned 64%  of our citizens want universal health care. Over HALF of this country feels that is a necessity. So why should our govt ignore over half of its constituents? It isn't shut up and like what you have or leave....there's nothing wrong with insisting that a govt that is elected by the people be held accountable by the people.
 

 



Yes, I love the USA also...and I love it so much I want the people who live here to be happy....hard to be happy if you cant afford healthcare for yuor kids!!! And by the way, I am a member of momsrising.org....they have many letters you can send to gov officials....the ones asking them not to cut medicaid are about 100,000.

 

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I am on medicaid but it's not free--$60 a month for my dd and $125 for me. Then I have a $1500 deductible for non-preventative care, and now that I've meet that my insurance pays for 80%--I pay the other 20% out of pocket. Then there are many things they just don't pay for. It's crappy heath insurance. My sate does things a bit differently than many other states though. If I made less I would pay less and have better insurance. And yes, I got pregnant with my wonderful baby knowing that when she was born I would work less hours and then I would go on medicaid, and wic, and I'm looking into food stamps. And I sure don't feel guilty about it! I deserve to be a mama, and I'm a good one, and my dd deserves good food and medical care. Being poor doesn't make you undeserving of a good life.

 

 



 

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Then I would try to surround myself with people who were supportive of my choices instead of ranting about it all the time. 

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I am sick and tired of people getting all up in arms about people who are on medicaid and food stamps.
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Just saw this article today that about 15% of the US population is on foodstamps.  http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/04/pf/food_stamps_record_high/ 

 

It's also sickening to read the articles about who's affected vs. who's protected in this debt deal.  http://www.thenation.com/blog/162494/who-helped-and-who-harmed-debt-deal 

 

I think there's just cause for ranting about it.

 

 


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What it boils down to, with me, is that prisoners are given medical care, including organ transplants, because to deny them care would be cruel and unusual.  Yet regular law-abiding citizens are being denied healthcare every single day.  Tell me, how the hell does that make sense?



This is not entirely accurate.  Many prisoners wait and wait and wait, and then are seen by RN's, not doctors, and given prescriptions.  Many are denied access to decent health care, and there was a mandatory release order issued in Cali not too long ago (maybe a year or 2?) b/c the prisons were so outrageously overcrowded that the conditions were deemed too dangerous.  And mandatory release orders are practically NEVER granted (I think this was the 2nd time in our country's history).

 

To think that prisoners get everything and live a great life behind bars, is, well, inaccurate at best.  The health care they receive is FAR inferior to what free people receive, not to mention that they have zero choice over who their shitty providers are, and are unable to seek second opinions if they disagree with, or have a problem with the care provider they are given.  I've been inside a prison, and since it was a class tour, we only saw the "good" parts - and they were HORRIBLE.

 

I know that Medicaid isn't great, and I would love to see a single payer system here in the US (which I think is going to happen - even my super hardcore wealthy republican family is starting to agree that its necessary, and he's a doctor).  That said, I'm on medicaid, and have been since before my (unplanned) son was born.  I've been in school, so with zero income, I get free medical care (yes, I have ZERO co-pay on any and all treatments, emergency room visits, ambulance rides, even my prescriptions are free), its nice, but I want a job that will allow me to provide for myself and my son without help from the government.  I'm on food stamps even, which SUCKS (even though in my state they are VERY generous).  With my degree, once I get a job, I should be fine.  But....the job market is TERRIBLE to say the least, so finding a job in my field is very difficult.

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#88 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 03:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

 

Okay. You don't hate poor people. I guess I just want to know, if you think poor people still deserve to receive some kind of medical care, and not suffer, even if they can't pay for it, what do you think is the answer? Private insurance isn't going to operate without a profit, so they're not going to insure poor people who can't pay. If private insurers won't do it, and the government shouldn't do it...then, who should? I believe you that you don't hate poor people, and don't want to see them suffer...so where should their treatment come from, if not profit-based private programs or the government?

 

 


OK, I'm pretty sure that was Storm Bride who said that - you guys need to stop layering your quotes!! 

 

Anyway, I COMPLETELY agree with Storm Bride here.  Who is going to pay for poor people to have medical care?  I mean, I get your point poorlittlefish that everyone should pay their own way, but societies generally cannot support every single person at the same level.  What I mean is, there will always be people in blue collar jobs, and people in white collar jobs.  We need janitors and maids, and garbage collectors, construction workers, and nurses, just the same as we need doctors, surgeons, lawyers, social workers, teachers, etc.  Some people make LOTS of money, some people make hardly anything.  I support everyone getting a living wage - but thats easier to do if everyone has medical care, and people don't have to pay for their medical care out of pocket. 

 

If the government shouldn't pay for it, who should?  Private insurance operates ONLY when they make a profit.  Are there other options that you are thinking of that we aren't?

 

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#89 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 04:26 PM
 
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USA-bashing? Ehh, if being horrified by the medical system is USA-bashing, so be it. I live in NZ, and while the health care system is pretty good (comparatively, at least), I'll happily start "New Zealand-bashing" if the topic of the education system comes up. Doesn't mean I don't admire certain aspects of both countries.

 

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Then I would try to surround myself with people who were supportive of my choices instead of ranting about it all the time.

One thread is hardly "all the time".


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#90 of 132 Old 08-04-2011, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post



Then I would try to surround myself with people who were supportive of my choices instead of ranting about it all the time. 


First of all, when was the last time you have ever heard me rant about this topic? I said my piece on the welfare mom thread and got out, fast. Ive never, ever started a post about this topic, so what is this "all the time" you refer to?

Second of all, there is NO ONE in my life that doesnt know Im on Medicaid and fully support my decision to be on it. Almost all of my family is uninsured, even the ones with long time jobs. Things have gotten so expensive that a lot of them have lost their insurance, both health and life. I was refering to people here at MDC when I posted the quote that you commented on, and I cant exactly pick and choose who gets on the message board now can I? This paticular person was a new user, so I cant exactly block someone before I know they exist. Also, I cant control how nuses, doctors, and other patients in waiting rooms treat me when they know Im on medicaid.

If you have a personal problem with me, I suggest you block my posts. It seems like almost everytime I post anything that is the least bit contraversial you are basically telling me to shut up about it.

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