No war but class war - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: What is your family's yearly income?
Less than $10,000 7 3.27%
$10,000-$20,000 10 4.67%
$20,000- $30,000 16 7.48%
$30,000- $40,000 25 11.68%
$50,000-$75,000 51 23.83%
$75,000- $100,000 48 22.43%
above $100,000 57 26.64%
Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post




How is that any different than what I said?  I always know I can count on you SSM for a post like that.
 

 


WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:36 PM
 
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WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.

 


It means that despite the fact that I wasn't generalizing, and made that quite clear, you responded as if I was generalizing. 

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hildare View Post

y'all--if you've ever had a felony, not only can you not vote, but you are disqualified from any assistance, whether it be medicaid or housing.  also, the services are usually only available to "legal" occupants in the US.



I know people who have felonies and receive assistance...  Also there are many services that can be accessed in this country without being here "legally."  Not saying it is easily accessible, but there are many services from dental and some emergency medical assistance as well as coverage during pregnancy, and ability to access various shelters, food and clothing assistance programs, etc.  It is much harder, of course. 

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:52 PM
 
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I am pretty sure you are talking about me so I reread what I wrote above.   When I said some people could not save I used words like "very, very little money" and "people who have trouble feeding themselves".  I did not state all low income people.  If I did I will edit.  I stand by the fact that it is elitist and unrealistic to expect very low income people to save. If you or any else was able to do so  - good.  It is not impossible.  It is still an unrealistic expectation, however.   I have no idea why you think it is elitist that I think some people who are in (hopefully temporary) circumstances  cannot save.

 

And, while my claws are still out a tiny bit (although I am neither menstruating or preggo)  should people go hungry to save?  Use food banks to save?  Because for some people that would be the choice.
 

 


I agree that it is an unrealistic *expectation* but I just think it is inappropriate to say that they *cannot* do it.  Because some can, and do.  Maybe it is a dollar a week or a dollar a month, but to them it is something.  I guess it is just a miscommunication. 
 

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:55 PM
 
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How?  How is it elitist and unrealistic for several MDC mamas to tell you that *they* have saved money despite having very little income?  They did it.  There is nothing unrealistic and elitist about that.  Making the assumption that those with little money cannot save is elitist.  It is like telling your daughter she can't be an astronaut and then saying to a female astronaut who corrects you and says "I did it" to shut up because she is just being elitist and unrealistic. 

 

Do most low income people you know share their credit histories and ratings with you?  That is one thing I will give hildare.  Credit companies are great at preying upon those who are the most vulnerable.  I know a lot of individuals with low incomes who have major credit issues.  And yes, they have shared that with me because through my job many of them had a goal of working on a budget which I helped them with. 

 


 

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Yes, SOME families are able to save while living on very little.  But they aren't representative of the very poorest - as those people don't have computers or the internet b/c they can't afford anything beyond the barest of necessities.


 

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WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?  If its nice, well, it certainly doesn't look that way.  You're pretty rude, and I definitely don't like you.


 

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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post


It means that despite the fact that I wasn't generalizing, and made that quite clear, you responded as if I was generalizing *solely* for the sake of arguing, like you do in lots of posts.

 

 

But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 03:59 PM
 
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It occurs to me that when we talk about "saving" we may not even be discussing the same thing. For some, that may mean have a bank account with a balance over $1. For others, it  may mean having a dedicated savings account with a minimum balance that doesn't get touched. For others it may mean a jar in the freezer with cash.

 

My claws are retracted as I gently suggest, it is tough to talk about privilege & prejudice, and any money conversation will invariably bring up those themes. Money & credit are tools, but they are not tools that are available equally to everyone or that can be used by everyone in the same way. Discrimination & prejudice & isms play a huge role in people's access to resources. It is a good thing to discuss. Can we each focus on speaking from our own experience without assuming that we can know if our truths are applicable to anyone else? I personally am uncomfortable assuming that I understand anyone else's situation. Many days, I feel like I scarcely fully understand my own. And no matter how much I learn about another person's situation, I always assume there is more I don't know. Money issues are unfathomably complex. It's like food or religion...there's so much there.



Wonderful, thoughtful, awesome post. 

 

Though I sometimes wonder if irritations are bound to arise in such a conversation, even rage, also accidental generalizations and inadvertent put-downs, and that the important part is regrouping after and not letting the conversation get dissociated from our consciousness...because these are really hard conversations, and like you say, really good conversations to have...

 

In any case, thank you thank you for this post. 

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But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

How do you know they had the internet when they were living with a very low income?  They have the internet now.  That means nothing about their past financial situation. 

 

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 04:03 PM
 
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And by the way, that is the best argument yet.  Did they teach you in law school to use personal insults when all else fails? 

 



No.  But you are clearly not someone capable of arguing logically, so there isn't any point trying any harder.  Oh well.

 

And, you are also resorting to personal insults as a means of arguing, so, pot - meet kettle.

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Old 08-26-2011, 04:07 PM
 
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No.  But you are clearly not someone capable of arguing logically, so there isn't any point trying any harder.  Oh well.

 

And, you are also resorting to personal insults as a means of arguing, so, pot - meet kettle.



 

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Old 08-26-2011, 04:13 PM
 
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But you WERE generalizing.  You were.  You were generalizing based on the fact that multiple MDC mama's have been able to save even when very low income - but clearly if they have enough internet access to post lots then they have internet and clearly aren't among the poorest.  That's all I was pointing out. 

 

Can you please show me these "lots of posts" that I make only for the sake of arguing?  I think you just don't like being argued with, and I still think you're rude and I'm glad I don't know you IRL.
 

 

Or they could be close to the library...
 

 


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Old 08-26-2011, 04:13 PM
 
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y'all--if you've ever had a felony, not only can you not vote, but you are disqualified from any assistance, whether it be medicaid or housing.  also, the services are usually only available to "legal" occupants in the US.

 

also..  retracting claws. 

 

i think that the people who have posted who describe how their families were able to put money by were also talking about how they grew up, two of the posters described intact families and circumstances that must have taken place at least 20 years ago, plus or minus a few.  i TOTALLY agree that for most families that were working class, or lower middle class, 2 decades ago, that was indeed a reality and a viable option. 

I think this bears repeating: economic times have changed.  There are lots of people living in the US who live in poverty, and struggle with joblessness, homelessness, and things like being unable to obtain a freaking bank account.  Saving is not a reality for people, in most circumstances, when life is this way.  poverty is very real, and it's hard to understand if you haven't ever seen or experienced it.  i don't think it's elitist to assume that if you can barely feed yourself you can't possible put money into a savings account.  for pete's sake, don't you have to have a minimum balance to even open a bank account? 

 

there are also people who don't live in extreme poverty but who have either had a drastic change in circumstance-- or who have always struggled to get by.  A really fantastic book that would be worth a read is Nickel and Dimed.  It's by an undercover reporter who tries out several jobs that pay around minimum wage and describes what life feels like there.  you can read an exerpt on google books. 

 

me, i have eaten food out of dumpsters.  i have lived in a house with 5 other people, and have had to decide whether to put gas in my car to go to work or buy bread and peanut butter to eat lunch.  i have stolen countless rolls of toilet paper.  but i was able to go to school because i have and recognize that i have privilege.  when i grew up, i had the fortune of not being a color that is discriminated against, and i had options available to me that are not present for other people who are still living with oppression.  and still, i know that i am fortunate because the experiences i had with being poor weren't permanent and they didn't trap me because of the privilege i was born with. 

 

I think it's really worth thinking and talking about-- but it's hard to talk about it when life is insular or if you're into denying that life is severe and harsh for so many freaking people.  and i'm not saying that income = lack of social awareness, but when we try to talk about this kind of thing and people are getting offended, it's worth suggesting that perhaps lots of us are very fortunate, myself at this point in time included, and it's hard to see the whole entire bleak picture that equals the struggle and sad reality for so many. 

 


thanks for digging deep here.  I really resonate with this.   I still dumpster dive, but not for food anymore, mostly just when the college kids leave town, for thrift and for fun, and I have strict instructions from my husband not to mention if I am at the uni where he teaches or the apt complexes nearby that I am his wife because he thinks his students from privileged backgrounds might find it totally outrageous...


re: income=lack of social awareness...I hear you, but I think folks with a lot of money have a powerful reason (guilt, horror that they are part of an oppressive system, and so on) to generate defenses and rationalizations that DO lack social awareness.  How do we live with the notion that our lifestyles benefit from systems of exchange that hurt other people and their children?  But I agree that lack of awareness is not automatic, as this thread illuminates, with so many thoughtful mamas of many income brackets chiming in in agreement with the notion that oppression sucks and economic marginalization is a practice to be dismantled...

 

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Old 08-26-2011, 05:41 PM
 
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CI Mama View Post

It occurs to me that when we talk about "saving" we may not even be discussing the same thing. For some, that may mean have a bank account with a balance over $1. For others, it  may mean having a dedicated savings account with a minimum balance that doesn't get touched. For others it may mean a jar in the freezer with cash.

 

My claws are retracted as I gently suggest, it is tough to talk about privilege & prejudice, and any money conversation will invariably bring up those themes. Money & credit are tools, but they are not tools that are available equally to everyone or that can be used by everyone in the same way. Discrimination & prejudice & isms play a huge role in people's access to resources. It is a good thing to discuss. Can we each focus on speaking from our own experience without assuming that we can know if our truths are applicable to anyone else? I personally am uncomfortable assuming that I understand anyone else's situation. Many days, I feel like I scarcely fully understand my own. And no matter how much I learn about another person's situation, I always assume there is more I don't know. Money issues are unfathomably complex. It's like food or religion...there's so much there.

 

CI Mama - thank you for your wonderful post.
 
I am reopening this thread for discussion with the caveat that everyone should post in this way - speak from your own experience without assuming what you believe or do is applicable to everyone or anyone else. 

 


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Old 08-28-2011, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post



How do you know they had the internet when they were living with a very low income?  They have the internet now.  That means nothing about their past financial situation. 

 

And by the way, that is the best argument yet.  Did they teach you in law school to use personal insults when all else fails? 

 

Okay AP Toddler, that's not fair (see bolded part).  I know plenty of  lawyers who resort to personal insults because they don't have a case, not because of what they did or didn't learn in law school.  orngbiggrin.gif  (just trying to lighten the tone here)

 

 

FYI regarding internet:  I don't think internet access is a good meter for wealth/lack of.  My DH's library is full of people without the means to afford internet access, but they access the web from the library.  Some people like myself mostly utilize the internet at work (although I'm not doing it right now), so there are many avenues to the WWW and it doesn't take a lot of underlying money to access it.  
 

Edited to say:  whoops, sorry, I didn't read the last page and realize that things had spiraled out of control.  I've quite liked this discussion and I have appreciated everyone's input, especially CI Mama's latest posts.

 


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