Can Catholics please vote in this poll? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-26-2011, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

Background -- the Republic of Ireland has been an independent country since 1949. Northern Ireland is a democracy that stayed part of the UK because that is what the majority of the people there want. The British said repeatedly that they would leave if the people of N. Ireland ever voted to become independent, but that as long as the majority of the people who live in N. Ireland wanted to be part of the UK, they would stay. 

 

The Troubles started in the late 60's and official ended in 1998 with the Good Friday Agreement. A few things have happened since then, but there has been a tremendous push to not escalate, to let things go. All of this is very, very raw in N. Ireland.
 

 


while i agree with what you're saying in the rest of the post about everybody wanting peace, i feel like i should point out that this is a little more simplified and not so cut-and-dried about what happened with the Anglo-Irish Treaty that began the Republic/North Ireland division, and led to the troubles down the road.  Ireland was divided further back than the 40's, beginning with the treaty.  The Republic of Ireland was more "officially" designated as such in 49. 

 

Not everyone, in the IRA or not, agreed with what happened when the treaty was made, and it wasn't necessarily what a "majority of the people there" wanted. It's also been disputed that the treaty was signed under the threat of outright war, too. There's a fantastic scene in the film, The Wind that Shakes the Barley, that shows lots of points of view & arguments about this issue (though it's kind of a pro-IRA film, for full disclosure)

 

my history is a little shaky though, so i can't promise that i've got it totally right. 

 

 


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Old 09-26-2011, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hildare View Post

Not everyone, in the IRA or not, agreed with what happened when the treaty was made, and it wasn't necessarily what a "majority of the people there" wanted.

 

 


I wasn't speaking about what people in 1949 wanted, but about the people currently living in N. Ireland and how they vote. The people in N. Ireland consistently and overwhelming vote for parties that desire to stay part of the UK. Even Catholics in N. Ireland tend to vote to stay in the UK, though at a lower percentage than Protestants. (Being catholic is one thing, wanting to live in a country where the laws are based on catholic theology is another). 

 

One thing that may currently be softening this intense issue is the EU -- the more that the Republic of Ireland and the UK become similar and ruled by a common union, the less intense the issue.

 

My DH retained his right to vote in N. Ireland for a few years after leaving, but eventually dropped it because the country was changing so quickly and he felt that he would stay stuck because he was no longer part of what was happening. A week or two a year isn't the same thing as living there. He believes that the people who live there 365 days a year should get to decide what happens there. That sounds simple and obvious, but it isn't. The Republic of Ireland doesn't agree, and the US chapter of the Ancient Order of the Hibernians don't agree.

 

The Northern Irish are trying very, very hard to live in the present. To let go of the past -- even to the point of letting go of centuries of hate that resulted in the murders of people they love -- murders of their friends and family members. This isn't ancient history -- this is people they loved that they buried because of terrorist.

 

To anyone who thinks that being angry about what the British (or any one else) was doing a hundred years ago is justified, the way the people of N. Ireland are acting right now is a role model. Just pray it holds. Pray that my nieces and nephews don't grow up with the same scars as their parents. Pray that they can continue to move forward together -- in peace.

 

Every time we go back to Belfast we are amazed. It's not the same place it was 15 years, when I made my first trip there. We know several people in mixed marriages, and lots of kids who are now attended integrated schools (which were not available when my DH attended schools -- every school was either protestant or catholic).

 

One of my nieces attends an integrated school and I asked her how it was going. She said she didn't think it was working because no body ever talked about religion. She didn't even know which of her friends were protestant and which one's were catholic. Her mom explained that meant is WAS working -- that the whole point was to be friends with people based on whether or not we like them, not to decide whether or not we like based on their religion.

 

Opening this can of worms isn't something I can see anyone knowingly doing -- so I strongly suspect that this is NOT was the church youth group activity was about.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 09-26-2011, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

Background --


Are you, an American, really trying to teach me, an Irish person, about Ireland, ti's colours, its politics, etc.? For real?
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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Are you, an American, really trying to teach me, an Irish person, about Ireland, ti's colours, its politics, etc.? For real?


 

no, I'm just trying to keep the conversation balanced for others reading it because I know that your view doesn't represent the only perspective. One need only look at the flag for the Republic of Ireland to know that at the time it was adopted, orange was considered as valid a color for Ireland as green - they get equal space on the flag. I suspect if they were doing a new flag now that wouldn't be the case. Evidently, how offensive the color orange is has changed.  (The flag for N. Ireland has neither green or orange on it - go figure)

 

I'm sure that you know lots and lots about Ireland that I don't (may be you know why orange was a desired color for the newly independent Republic of Ireland but is extremely offensive now).  

 

I've no desire to argue, esp. with you.

 

My posts were hopeful attempts to show the other side -- the human side. The way things change. My father in law was in the Orange Order. My niece goes to an integrated school and doesn't know or care which of her friends are catholic and protestant. Her mother is proud of her because of it. Life moves on -- people, even countries, move forward.  

 

I think it is extremely important to de-escalate. Getting angry, getting all worked up about the past, doesn't help anybody. Getting really offended whether the slight was intended or not isn't helpful to anyone. Continuing to escalate feeling that's is OK because "my side is right" is what made Belfast a nightmare for the people born there for 30 of the last 40 years.

 

I sincerely doubt that a church in the US would organize an Orange night. (I know the OPer isn't in the US and I've no idea what the situation is there). Most Americans don't even know that orange is the Protestant color, and most people here have entirely other race issues than catholic/protestant. It doesn't translate here.

 

I strongly suspect that it was just an unfortunate choice.

 

I don't  think being angry and offended, to see racism where non exists, is helpful.


but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 09-27-2011, 02:40 PM
 
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... to be fair, on the other hand... i don't think a nationality has anything to do with a desire to study history intensively.. i have met lots of non american phd profs who know way more about american history than most citizens, and vice-versa. 

(and i know what i know b/c my dh was a history major with a huge interest in irish history; his uncles have citizenship and grannie emmigrated but he's never been) and as far as what we're discussing goes, i have heard those same issues as raised by linda from other folks actually from there, that seems to be very much an issue of perspective, like most versions of history in general and from what i understand, right?  (though i've been taught to see things much differently myself)


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Old 09-28-2011, 11:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

<snip>

 

So, your assumption that this was all a really long time ago and Protestants just don't get it isn't true. Not at all.

 

Thank you for providing your perspective based on your interactions with people from Northern Ireland. 

Please understand that my perspective (and the perspective of many posting here) is that of a person of Irish descent, whose lineage from Ireland came long before the 1949 treaty you mentioned.  When I spoke of grandparents and great-grandparents, I was referring to the fact that many people of Irish descent (whether Protestant or Catholic) around the English-speaking world, whether the USA, Australia, New Zealand, DO have ancestors who were involved in the troubles there, and since they don't live there (as the OP notes), it would be a distant family memory, not a tangible personal experience.  For us, it was a long time ago that it touched our own families.  Doesn't make the horrible things that have scarred people living in Northern Ireland less horrible - simply not a part of what random Irish-American girl growing up in Montana, say, has personally experienced.  Rather what her mother has told her about what happened to her great-grandparents when they immigrated in the 1860's. 

Of course, the descendants of British/Scottish etc. whose families settled in the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and left long before the 1949 treaty would similarly have distance from the current situation in Northern Ireland, as well. 

So there is, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on perspective) the sort of distance which could cause something like this to occur [an "Orange Party"]. I'm sure you're correct that it wouldn't happen in Northern Ireland today.  But this isn't happening in Northern Ireland, as the OP notes (Australia). 

In the 1930's, there were more people speaking Gaelic in Butte, Montana than there were in Dublin, Ireland.  There is a distance of ancestry, and sometimes less first-hand knowledge of current events in Ireland, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a passionate allegiance to the earlier history, where this issue lies. 


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Old 09-29-2011, 03:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

But this isn't happening in Northern Ireland, as the OP notes (Australia). 


although the OPer was writing in Australia, nothing actually happened there. The people who organized the event had never heard of the Orange Order, had no idea that orange is the Protestant color, or that it is considered an offensive anti-catholic color to many people.

no idea.

Her husband saw racism where none existed.


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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

it would be a distant family memory, not a tangible personal experience.  For us, it was a long time ago that it touched our own families.  Doesn't make the horrible things that have scarred people living in Northern Ireland less horrible - simply not a part of what random Irish-American girl growing up in Montana, say, has personally experienced. 


I don't see how you've experienced anything related to the issues in Ireland. I haven't either. I do know several people who have, one of them is my husband. When he was 15, his best friend was shot in the back of the head at point blank range by and IRA gunman. Two of his cousins, with whom he was close, were killed in a pub bomb. His entire childhood there were helicopters in the air, massive graffiti on walls, and it wasn't safe to go anywhere -- not to a movie, not to a restaurant, not to church. My brother in law had a nervous break down after working anti-terrorism for the police. BUT our children have had a lovely childhood here in the US. None of those things happened to them. Those aren't their experiences. Just as our children are outsiders to it all, so are ALL Irish Americans.

I don't mean to make it sound like all the atrocities were committed by catholics against protestants, I know quite well it went both ways, just relating to what my children's family stories are and what we tell them it means. We tell them they are lucky and blessed in live in a place where there isn't a war. We don't tell them that it means anything about catholics; we tell that avoiding war zones and acts of terrorism is an important safety tip. winky.gif
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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

Of course, the descendants of British/Scottish etc. whose families settled in the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and left long before the 1949 treaty would similarly have distance from the current situation in Northern Ireland, as well. So there is, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on perspective) the sort of distance which could cause something like this to occur [an "Orange Party"]. I'm sure you're correct that it wouldn't happen in Northern Ireland today.  But this isn't happening in Northern Ireland, as the OP notes (Australia). In the 1930's, there were more people speaking Gaelic in Butte, Montana than there were in Dublin, Ireland.  There is a distance of ancestry, and sometimes less first-hand knowledge of current events in Ireland, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a passionate allegiance to the earlier history, where this issue lies. 

I didn't say it couldn't happen in N. Ireland, I said it couldn't happen where I live in the US. Here, people don't think of themselves as either protestant or catholics. My community consists of people who think of themselves as:
anglos
latinos
jewish
muslim

A catholic/protestant conflict wouldn't make sense here.
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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

There is a distance of ancestry, and sometimes less first-hand knowledge of current events in Ireland, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a passionate allegiance to the earlier history, where this issue lies.

I find it ironic that the people still living in N. Ireland are learning to let go of their allegiances, and yet so many Americans want to hold on to theirs. I do not understand that.

Holding on to the 1860's and feeling that one has a clue what is going on in another country would be like someone having some family stories about the civil war in American and thinking they understand what is going on in race relationships now in spite of never visiting American or bothering to learn what is happening here now.
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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

yeahthat.gif  I suppose 'victors' and their descendants might not see how it could be offensive

 


I'm curious who you think the victors are. The Republic of Ireland has been independent of Britain for over 50 years. When do Catholic Irish Americans figure out that their side won?

No one won in N. Ireland. No one got justice. Every one lost. Eventually, both the protestants and Catholics who live there decided that peace was more important than justice. They are trying very hard to let go and move forward together.

So who are the victors? Who are their descendants?

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 09-30-2011, 01:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


although the OPer was writing in Australia, nothing actually happened there. The people who organized the event had never heard of the Orange Order, had no idea that orange is the Protestant color, or that it is considered an offensive anti-catholic color to many people.
no idea.
Her husband saw racism where none existed.

I have looked and have not found this update from the OP. 

It's not that orange is "Anti-Catholic."  It's that the Anglican Church was having an Orange Party.  The context matters in terms of the reaction. 

Your argument that people whose families were forced to flee Ireland long ago should forget about that ancient history and disregard it because it doesn't apply to the Ireland of today I think conflates your personal feelings about the conflict's recent history (shared frankly I would imagine by most of us), that people in Northern Ireland are moving on and recovering and forgiving and that it is a GOOD THING, with a decision to ignore and forget the history behind it. 

Sure, anyone who is trying to describe current race interactions in the USA based solely on Civil War conditions would be wrong.  But that's where I don't think we're communicating (you and I).  I'm talking about history, you're talking about the current real-time situation in Northern Ireland.  I guess I could extend your analogy and say that anyone who doesn't understand the Civil War and race relations prior to, during, and following Reconstruction would have a difficult time understanding some of the continuing race issues in our country, too. 

Remembering history (and we're talking 1600 to present) doesn't mean that people haven't forgiven and moved on.  But at the same time, some sensitivity to historical context is not out of place, either.  And frankly while you are convinced that this is about "Protestant vs. Catholic," I think it's as much about "Britain vs. Ireland" in many peoples' minds.  Not all the Irish who fled Ireland during the famines etc. were Catholic, nor have they remained Catholic.  But they are still Irish-(American/Canadian/Australian) and for those families who talk about their family history, it still matters to them.  That doesn't mean we're funding the IRA, it doesn't mean we hate Protestants (especially those who ARE now Protestant winky.gif ), it doesn't mean that we're rooting for the demise of Great Britain or hate the British.  It's in the past, we're glad that things are improving in Northern Ireland and we wish the best to everyone involved.  But truly, aren't you struck by how many people of Irish (Catholic) descent posted in this thread and knew the history, and were disturbed by the context/idea of an Anglican Church throwing an "Orange" party? 

I'd be the last person to think that ethnic background 'matters' in America today - while I'm Irish-American, I've also got 7 other nationalities in the mix.  Most of the kids I grew up with didn't know their ethnic background at all - no one cared about Irish/Italian/German/whatever.  There was a little more awareness of Hispanic/Native American but it wasn't a really big deal at all.  I guess I'm saying, though, that even in a completely color-blind, ethnically blended society there still ought to be some sensitivity to long-term history. 

Just because everyone is forgiving, moving on, etc., doesn't mean it's OK to insert what once was an ethnically/religiously/etc.-charged term or activity back into the mix.  You yourself acknowledge that people in Northern Ireland wouldn't even THINK of doing something like this (having an "Orange Party" at the Protestant churches).  Why are you surprised that there are people whose families left Ireland long ago who also recognize some significance in that centuries-long conflict? 

You ask who the 'victors' were - I don't know if the British felt they'd won.  But given the Irish diaspora, the wealth extracted from Ireland over the years, and the people who fled the economy there under British rule .... While "the sun never sets on the British Empire" (until WWII) .... I'd say that some might assume that the British won.  I don't know enough about current economics in Europe to say for sure, but do find a contrast between Ireland's teetering economy, just above Greece for stability in the EU, vs. Great Britain's economy right now (also not that stable, but more stable than Ireland's). 
 

 


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Old 09-30-2011, 09:49 AM
 
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I never said it couldn't happen in Belfast. And I pointed that out in my last post. I do wish you would stop repeatedly saying that I said something that I didn't say.

Most Americans, both on this board and IRL, haven't got a clue that orange is the protestant color. Many Americans don't realize that the Republic of Ireland is an independent country and has been for a very long time, and that N. Ireland is a democracy.

Most Americans think that putting corned beef and cabbage in their crock pots is a very Irish thing to do. The question I've been asked the most times about Americans by recent Irish immigrants is why Americans think this. Americans tend to think they know a lot of Ireland when they really don't, and that ignorance comes out loud and strong when they come face to face with someone with an Irish accent.

Britain doesn't have an empire anymore, and they haven't for a long time. Sure, at one point in history they were winning. They aren't now. Their economy, while stronger than the Republic of Ireland's, pales compared to the US's. Even with our current economic downturn, the US is the closest thing to an empire left on the planet. Because we did such a great job of consolidating our power in a mostly contiguous area and mostly killing off the original inhabitants, we've held on to ours.

If you want to stay stuck in the past and in loyalties to things that don't exist any more, you can. (I am a bit curious what you would have me teach my own children about what they should be loyal to).

If you want to learn history from a terrorist group, you can (as one poster who takes the IRA view of the 1949 agreement has). There are a lot of ways to "support" a terrorist group, and taking their view, even if you don't give them money, is one way to do so. Money from American did help fuel the IRA.

You seem to have the view that holding on to this is harmless. My perspective is different because I know what happens when people ACT on those views. These loyalist aren't harmless, they are the basis for further ethnic conflict where innocent people die.

I think it's healthier to move into the present. I think that world will be a safer place for our children and their children the more we let go of the past, the more we are able to teach our children to let go of the past and live in the present.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 09-30-2011, 03:25 PM
 
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I'm confused here. Anglicans aren't Protestant. Protestant doesn't just mean "not-Catholic", otherwise Orthodox Christians would be considered Protestant. Protestantism arose from the Reformation for theological reasons; Anglicanism arose from Henry VIII for political reasons. So is orange a Protestant colour, or an Anglican colour? Or is "Protestant" used in a different sense in Ireland? Or is Anglicanism in Ireland very low-church and evangelical and therefore more similar to Protestantism in theology and practice than Catholicism (there being a very wide spectrum of Anglicanism)? Or what?

 


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Old 09-30-2011, 06:00 PM
 
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I am not catholic either, but am of Irish ancestory. My grandfather who was not religious professed to hate catholics and would not let his kids wear green on St Patrick’s day. Instead they had to wear orange.

 

I see that this is a Irish North/Protestant/Orange vs South/Catholic/Green sorta thing. But yeah it seems to involve some level of hate. And that is not a good thing to promote.

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Old 09-30-2011, 08:40 PM
 
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nm  - a quick google search proved me wrong.

 

 

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Old 10-01-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

I'm confused here. Anglicans aren't Protestant. Protestant doesn't just mean "not-Catholic", otherwise Orthodox Christians would be considered Protestant. Protestantism arose from the Reformation for theological reasons; Anglicanism arose from Henry VIII for political reasons. So is orange a Protestant colour, or an Anglican colour? Or is "Protestant" used in a different sense in Ireland? Or is Anglicanism in Ireland very low-church and evangelical and therefore more similar to Protestantism in theology and practice than Catholicism (there being a very wide spectrum of Anglicanism)? Or what?

 


I'm really trying to not post on this thread because I really don't have any desire to argue, but since you asked this, no one else has offered an answer. So I'll try.

The terms "protestant" and "catholic" and just a short hand for two different groups of people. There are currently more people in Ireland who consider themselves Catholic, for example, than believe in the existence of god. I follow yoga as a spiritual path and my favorite spiritual book is the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not a Christian, not even close. But, in Irish terms I'm a protestant because my parents are, my grandparents were, etc. For me as an American, that doesn't make sense. I don't think of myself as protestant, because I think one needs to follow Jesus to first, but Jesus doesn't figure much into the whole deal in Ireland.

Really, you can't be a good Christian, either prod or catholic, and participate in murder and terrorism. The conflict was carried about by people on both sides ignoring their 'beliefs." Jesus taught to turn the other check. Even though I'm not a christian, I think if all the people around the world who say they are Christians or considered themselves either prods or catholics actually followed his teachings, the world would be a much nicer and safer place.

Anyway, I was looking around on the internet for something this morning to help explain it and found this

"
There was often a significant misunderstanding by outside observers looking at the long running conflict in Northern Ireland who frequently saw it as a “religious war”. It never was, it was a struggle between communities with diverse histories and cultures. Thus the well know gag about the Belfast man who stated that he was Jewish, only to be asked “Yes, but are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?”.

It's from this web site, http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/ which is from a Republic of Ireland point of view, not a N. Ireland point of view, and is quite good. There is a break down at the top that shows the break down of religions, but I can't tell if it for just the Republic or for the whole island.

For a long time, Ireland really lacked diversity. It was all white people who believed (more or less) in Jesus. It's becoming more diverse, which will hopefully help.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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Old 10-01-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Ireland aside, I had always thought Anglicans were Protestants.  A quick google search seemed to suggest they were both.

 

 

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Old 10-01-2011, 11:03 PM
 
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I'm an Anglican posting, here. The Anglican church is both Catholic and Reformed. It is apostolic and has liturgical aspects that firmly root it in Catholocism, but is reformed in that the Roman Catholic Pope is not he head of the church. Anglicans can and do have celebrations around "Catholic" saints such as St Patrick, and have a very similar church calendar. I was involved in both the Catholic and Anglican choirs in my community as a teenager (because I love the music!) much to the (then) horror of my Anglican Irish mother (Northern Irish father, Canadian born but lived in Scotland for a few years as a child, lots of oversea involvement). There is much in common in terms of the services, but a huge divergence in how the church is structured, now (Anglicans can have female ministers, bless homosexual marriages, generally have more acceptance of scientific view points of Creation, etc).

However, despite being Anglican, I would not be comfortable with the orange man thing. It is not really just about religion. It's about two secular, political bodies (Ireland and England as countries), engaged in years of warring and strife that is certainly not of a Christian nature, over issues of national sovereinty. I have friends who grew up in Northern Ireland and can't remember not knowing what a gun or a street full of soldiers was. This is not something to glorify. In North America, St Patrick's Day is generally treated as a celebration of being of Irish descent. Historically, the Irish were both poor and profoundly persecuted, and I think there is a lot of pride in having survived and made good. I realize that in Northern Ireland, it may be seen as a Catholic celebration but the deeper issue is that it is an Irish celebration and that many Protestant Irish are in favor of Northern Ireland remaining part of Great Britain. Wearing the orange speaks to me of glorifying ethnic hatred that has been disguised as religious righteousness, despite that Jesus accepted all who came to him, be they Samaritans, prostitutes or tax collectors. I would not ever want my children involved in an organization or actions that would seem to condone bigotry and killing, so that would be nix to the orange!

Not Catholic, and didn't vote, just commented as some other posters seemed unclear as to Anglican practice.

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Old 10-01-2011, 11:23 PM
 
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The OP hasn't updated and I'm wondering if her area has Catholic and Protestant conflict. It's alive and well in the Maritime provinces of Canada, especially in rural regions, and socializing or marrying only within one's church is still pretty prevalent in some locales. Maybe the OP's context, while not Northern Irish, is still different than in the United States?

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Old 10-02-2011, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

I have looked and have not found this update from the OP.


Read post 11 (page 1).

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Originally Posted by FarmerBeth View Post

The OP hasn't updated


 

Yes I did.  I said that the youth group leaders were trying to add a bit of visual fun to their message for the night and that they had no idea of the significance of the colour. DH was going to have an informal chat with them to suggest that perhaps they choose a different 'fruit' for their focus next time.

 

Our area has absolutely no Catholic-Protestant conflict, not a single one of the youth group leaders is of recent Irish descent, so I don't think it's a huge issue for a group of 18 year old Australian kids not to know the significance of the colour.  DH didn't want to cause any ill feelings - these kids are trying to do a good thing by being youth group leaders.  So a polite chat along the lines of 'hey, did you guys know this?' without laying blame or pointing the finger is the route we've chose to go down.

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Old 10-03-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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That sounds like it worked out! I missed your update up thread. Sounds like it was one of those accidental allusions and easily done. Actually that's cute with the "fruits" of the Holy Spirit. Also easy to see how if you did know of the Orange Order context it could be taken as your DH originally did, just one of those differences in context.

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Old 10-04-2011, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it's the best possible outcome - we're all happy with how it worked out :).

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Old 10-05-2011, 06:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graceomalley View Post

 

Read post 11 (page 1).

 

Yes I did.  I said that the youth group leaders were trying to add a bit of visual fun to their message for the night and that they had no idea of the significance of the colour. DH was going to have an informal chat with them to suggest that perhaps they choose a different 'fruit' for their focus next time.

 

Our area has absolutely no Catholic-Protestant conflict, not a single one of the youth group leaders is of recent Irish descent, so I don't think it's a huge issue for a group of 18 year old Australian kids not to know the significance of the colour.  DH didn't want to cause any ill feelings - these kids are trying to do a good thing by being youth group leaders.  So a polite chat along the lines of 'hey, did you guys know this?' without laying blame or pointing the finger is the route we've chose to go down.

 

Alerting them to the historical background is a good idea, but suggesting that they don't ever use orange for a party theme? If they weren't deliberately hosting a "Protestant Orange" event and weren't intending to celebrate or inculcate a "Protestant Orange" message and there is no Catholic-Protestant conflict in the area, and they only selected that colour because they like it and it's a fun colour, then I'm not sure why they would avoid it in the future. Does your DH want a ban on the colour? That doesn't sit quite right. Red was offensive to anti-communists, but it wouldn't be appropriate to ban it if someone wanted to use it for a colour scheme at a party. I'm sure there are other colours that could be objectionable - eg. anti-monarchists may object to purple. 

 

 

 

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Old 10-05-2011, 08:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post

 

Alerting them to the historical background is a good idea, but suggesting that they don't ever use orange for a party theme? If they weren't deliberately hosting a "Protestant Orange" event and weren't intending to celebrate or inculcate a "Protestant Orange" message and there is no Catholic-Protestant conflict in the area, and they only selected that colour because they like it and it's a fun colour, then I'm not sure why they would avoid it in the future.


 

Although I completely agree with you in theory (sometimes an orange shirt is just an orange shirt) I think an organized event by Protestants where everyone is encouraged to wear orange is a bad idea because many people find it offensive. Just read through the thread.  wink1.gif

 

Although there is nothing wrong with the color orange itself, to knowingly do something that some people in your community find offensive is just.... rude.  Part of getting along in a society of mixed peoples is to not *knowingly* do things that step on others' toes. 


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Old 10-05-2011, 01:36 PM
 
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Yeah... I doubt it'd be too much of a hardship for them to avoid the very specific theme of orange-themed parties. If they were even planning to repeat the occasion, which again sounds pretty specific and once-offy, there are plenty of other coloured fruits that would do the same job without ruffling any feathers. So it's not like they're being asked to compromise on something that's integral to their worship or would require them to alter an ingrained weekly event, you know? It's unlikely to ever come up again anyway.


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Old 10-05-2011, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Now that they know, I think they'll try a different colour if they do that theme again.  It's no big deal for them to choose plum (or something similar) next time, out of respect.

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Old 10-05-2011, 11:20 PM
 
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I bet they were trying for a color that both boys and girls wouldn't object to wearing. Plum might be a bit difficult to convince some of the boys to don, depending on your community. But they could easily do green, yellow, or red without offending anyone, I think.


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Old 10-05-2011, 11:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That's very true (although I suspect half of the boys would just go for purple hair spray).  I was thinking more along the lines of colours with the same name as a fruit, since they did 'fruits' of the spirit.  Plum was the first one I thought of and I'm coming up blank when trying to think of others ...

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Old 10-05-2011, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And of course as soon as I hit submit, I thought of lime, peach and lemon, lol.

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Old 10-06-2011, 12:11 AM
 
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Well, according to Resene, every fruit, veggie or indeed food ever invented is a colour anyway. Tangerine, Lychee, Avocado, Latte, Tiramisu, you name it. There's probably a paint chip labelled Underdone Pork Dumpling stuck on someone's wall at this very moment.


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Old 10-06-2011, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

Although I completely agree with you in theory (sometimes an orange shirt is just an orange shirt) I think an organized event by Protestants where everyone is encouraged to wear orange is a bad idea because many people find it offensive. Just read through the thread.  wink1.gif

 

Although there is nothing wrong with the color orange itself, to knowingly do something that some people in your community find offensive is just.... rude.  Part of getting along in a society of mixed peoples is to not *knowingly* do things that step on others' toes. 

 

I guess my point is that some people in the community are going to find just about anything offensive. I'm all for accommodating sensitivities, but at some point, you reach the truism that you can't please everyone. It might be different if this was a location with Catholic-Protestant conflict.   

 


 

 

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Old 10-06-2011, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

Well, according to Resene, every fruit, veggie or indeed food ever invented is a colour anyway. Tangerine, Lychee, Avocado, Latte, Tiramisu, you name it. There's probably a paint chip labelled Underdone Pork Dumpling stuck on someone's wall at this very moment.



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