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#1 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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NOT here to talk about whether CPS is good or bad.

here to talk about PROTECTING your own family in case of unwarranted CPS invasion.

this is not the place to say 'but i thought CPS was great and helps kids...' see my other thread for that conversation.

who wants to think beyond the walls a little about how to keep our kids safe?

different ideas, from 'don't let them in' to 'always let them in and be polite', let's hash it all out.

seriously, i'm going to PM you a waving booty if you dismiss my very legit and founded concerns about CPS abuse. please, help me and other survivors out, show a little respect or step off.
thank you.
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#2 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 09:47 PM
 
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Don't let them in without a warrant.

Know that they can't cross state lines.

Make sure your children know what to do.

Give your children a card with their rights if ANYONE asks them questions without you there.

-Angela
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#3 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 09:56 PM
 
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http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwi...arch/index.cfm

http://www.falseallegation.org/index.shtml

http://familyrightsassociation.com/c...parents_guide/

http://www.fightcps.com/

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#4 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 09:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post

Make sure your children know what to do.

Give your children a card with their rights if ANYONE asks them questions without you there.
I'd love to read some ideas on how to discuss these things with a younger child (early elementary school age or younger). Thanks!

Ah, love "preview post"! Thanks i'mmykid'$mom for those links, as I was about to post some myself!

You can find me on Facebook. PM for info.
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#5 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i have a digital voice recorder over my door. if anyone ever shows up, i will say,

'of course you and i are deeply concerned that this interview is well-communicated,therefore i will be recording- for both the protection of my family and your job'.

i will then say, i need to discuss your presence with my attorney. you are welcome to listen.

i know which attorney i will call in case they show up.

let's also discuss 'fight back' techniques.

one of mine that i have not employed yet-
in IN, you can legally call CPS anytime to see if your name has any complaints against it.

i think it might be way cool if you could get fifty or sixty people to call every day to check in.
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#6 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 10:46 PM
 
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I would not let them in. I have a messy house, lol, and really do not want to be judged for it. I have heard several stories where "housekeeping" was involved in childrens removal - no thank you!!!

I might agree to meet them at a restaurant, ect to hash things out/play "nice" - I would need to play that by ear.

Another crucial thing to do is to figure out what role schools can play in CPS. Did you know that in some places (as mentioned in a previous thread) children can be questionned at school by CPS without an adult present if the child gives "consent" to it!!! (Quite frankly, I have no idea how an 8 yr old can give "consent" - they are minors! And they certainly do not need to give consent for removal - do they? -they are just "removed". Alas, the system does not play fair. Talk to teachers in your area - see what is allowable and create a plan accordingly). Some schools do "fishing surveys" where they ask questions about discipline, nutrition ect...they are "looking" for signs of abuse. Please read the above mentionned (pp) links for reference.
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#7 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 10:58 PM
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Be educated about your alternative parenting decisions. Be prepared to back your decisions up with data and studies. Is it fair? No. But better than losing your child over a misunderstanding, right?

For example, the EBF thing. Most mainstream people have no idea that b-feeding a toddler is perfectly normal. Be prepared to quote the AAP, the AAFP, the WHO, etc.
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#8 of 206 Old 04-05-2007, 11:57 PM
 
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I homeschool - no interviews without my knowledge.
I have a pediatrician who shares my holistic viewpoint and will back my children's health up with documentation.
I will stand on my fourth amendment rights and not allow them in my home unless they have a court order.
I understand that I have the right to know the specific charges against me at the initial contact.
I have many former clients who love and respect me who would be character witnesses.
I am fully prepared to leave the state if I have to, to get away from them. (money to flee safely put away)

I used to think CPS was there to help, but I saw first hand with a family friend that they are not. I can't even go into detail but we know a family who had their 9 year old falsely accused of molestation of a non-verbal pre-toddler by a disgruntled babysitter. All investigators concluded that nothing had occured, the boy didn't even know enough about what M/W do in that dept and other factors like lack of opportunity... but still mother threatened with having either the boy or his sister removed from home if she didn't willingly submit her 6 year old to a VAGINAL EXAM to prove the boy hadn't "molested her too"--this after all police investigators and psychologists had cleared him. The six year old got a VE--which was state ordered molestation in my book-- and the boy eventually was exhonorated in court after a five month struggle where the brother and sister were terrified one or both would be taken from their home to be in foster care.

No I will be prepared!

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#9 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 12:10 AM
 
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i have a digital voice recorder over my door. if anyone ever shows up, i will say,

'of course you and i are deeply concerned that this interview is well-communicated,therefore i will be recording- for both the protection of my family and your job'.
I have recorded "interviews" with CPS workers before. I put the recorder on the table, pushed 'record' and the look on their face was priceless. Needless to say they do not like it. Why? Because whatever they say will be forever on that tape and they know it. It makes lying and twisting things much harder.

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Be prepared to quote the AAP, the AAFP, the WHO, etc.


Absolutely!

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I homeschool - no interviews without my knowledge.
I have a pediatrician who shares my holistic viewpoint and will back my children's health up with documentation.
I will stand on my fourth amendment rights and not allow them in my home unless they have a court order.
I understand that I have the right to know the specific charges against me at the initial contact.
Yes, yes and yes!
Great advice.

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#10 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 12:28 AM
 
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Ugh, they scare me, but I am so far woefully uninformed. So, :
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#11 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 01:13 AM
 
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I really need to invest in a voice recorder.

UmamaQ ~ how did you determine what lawyer you would call in the event that you are visited by CPS? It would be nice to have a name and number handy, but I have no idea what I'm looking for.

I'd also like advice on how to address the issue of not talking to social workers/police without me present with younger children. My oldest is only 6. For me it's a fine line between "Find a police officer if you're lost or in trouble" and "Don't give any information to the police without my permission." I could laminate a card as a pp suggested, but then it's hit or miss if he remembers to give it to them. Is there any way to have a "I do not consent to government interviews" statement put in his school file?
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#12 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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UmamaQ ~ how did you determine what lawyer you would call in the event that you are visited by CPS? It would be nice to have a name and number handy, but I have no idea what I'm looking for.
i went through every lawyer in the phone book that in any way had 'CHINS' in their ad.
i interviewed several, and have a top two.
oddly enough, i haven't talked to the #1, i need to. but he's the only one who was referred to me by one of his clients. mostly, they all seem to think CPS has a valid place in society, but would represent CHINS parents the way one might represent child sex offenders....
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#13 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 01:41 AM
 
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Is there any way to have a "I do not consent to government interviews" statement put in his school file?
My understanding is NO. That any government agent can come into a school or daycare and they MUST provide access to your child. The ONLY way your child can protect themselves is to assert their own rights (though it can be done in the form of a card handed to them)

Stinks, huh?

-Angela
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#14 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 02:13 AM
 
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Never had any dealings with CPS (thankfully!). But my plans for what to do if they come knocking are as follows:

1. Never, ever, EVER let them in without a warrant, no matter what they say or do. CPS entering a house to 'investigate' without signed legal cause is a violation of people's rights and should be OUTLAWED! It's just a way for them to fish for 'reasons' to take your children away when they lack evidence. Anything from dishes in the sink to clothes on the floor to breastfeeding beyond infancy can be used against a parent. I refuse to give them any opportunities or advantages they are not expressly granted by the law itself.

2. Record, in both audio and video, any interactions (even a simple, "Please come back with a warrant") between myself and any government agent. Without proper documentation, we are vulnerable to the 'misunderstandings' and 'mistakes' of average human beings with their own political, moral, and social agendas.

3. NEVER sign or agree to anything, in writing or otherwise, without the advice of a lawyer. Legal documents/jargon can be confusing and purposefully vaguely worded as to their true purpose. Above all, never, under any circumstances or in any way, admit to wrongdoing of any kind. It can open a door that may never close!

4. Trust no one but yourself to look out for the best interests of your family, especially not government representatives, who look out for the government's best interests, NOT yours or your children's.

Great topic, UMQ. This so needs to be discussed and re-discussed. There simply aren't too many precautions one can take. We must protect ourselves and our families from abusive government intrusion into our private lives.
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#15 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 11:39 AM
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Don't let them in is the best advice and get a LAWYER ASAP.
Also, I have seen many say CPS can't cross state lines. No, they cannot - BUT they can get an "interstate compact" in MINUTES. (Judges almost always sign) so they pick right back up in your new state. It is VERY foolish to think of fleeing as a surefire way to stop CPS. And yes, if a worker comes to school to see your child, they WILL see your child...you will be notified later.

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#17 of 206 Old 04-06-2007, 08:40 PM
 
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I have had PLENTY of CPS experience, tape everything, all the time, religiously, including phone calls. Document everything, all the time, religiously. Never agree to anything or sign anything, consult an attorney, know the laws in your State. CPS needs some serious reformation, they are out of control and destroying families left and right on a whim. (not meant to offend any social workers, but it's true.)
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#18 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 02:52 AM
 
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Someone asked if you could write, "No government interviews without my consent" in a child's school file.


I went to interview a child at school and she said,"My mom told me that if anyone ever came to school to talk to me that I was to call her first". I said,"Then you should do that RIGHT NOW!"


I didn't want a child thinking that *I* was going to override what her mother told her to do! (sets a scary precedent, kwim?)


I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)
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#19 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 08:24 AM
 
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For example, the EBF thing. Most mainstream people have no idea that b-feeding a toddler is perfectly normal. Be prepared to quote the AAP, the AAFP, the WHO, etc.
Do you have links of these entities recommending BFing past the age of 1 (2 for WHO)? I haven't read ANY and have looked HARD (for my mother's benefit ). From what I've found, if you're BFing past the age of 2, no one is there saying you're doing a good thing.

Thank you.
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1. Never, ever, EVER let them in without a warrant, no matter what they say or do. CPS entering a house to 'investigate' without signed legal cause is a violation of people's rights and should be OUTLAWED!
"Should be" is the key word. CPS isn't accusing you of a crime in the legal sense, so do they actually need a warrant?
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#21 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 09:59 AM
 
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I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)
Yes CPS does, and to think that there are workers out there who honestly believe they need nothing to enter your home?! Thats pretty scary.

We are federally protected against illegal search and seizure in this country. When CPS wants to come inside your home, they are "looking" for evidence to cooberate what you are being accused of.

There is no reason why you cannot meet with them elsewhere, even on the porch of your home.

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#22 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 10:05 AM
 
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Do you have links of these entities recommending BFing past the age of 1 (2 for WHO)? I haven't read ANY and have looked HARD (for my mother's benefit ). From what I've found, if you're BFing past the age of 2, no one is there saying you're doing a good thing.

Thank you.
Try looking on kellymom.com

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My oldest is only 6. For me it's a fine line between "Find a police officer if you're lost or in trouble" and "Don't give any information to the police without my permission."
When I read Protecting the Gift, Gavin DeBecker says not to tell your kids to find a police officer (in some places that could take a long time) or a security guard (statistically more dangerous than a random person), but to tell them that if they're lost to find a woman and tell her you need to find your mom or dad. A woman is more likely to not leave the situation until she sees the kid with a parent.

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#23 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 10:47 AM
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Kellymom has some good links about the various quotes from different health organizations
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#24 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 10:54 AM
 
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No one other than family or friends enters into my house without a warrant. If I do not know who is knocking at the door, I exit through my back door and walk to the front to see what they want. That prevents them from sticking a foot in the door and pushing their way in. I will gladly talk to anyone, but the meeting will not occur in my house without a warrant. And no, my house is not dirty. Its next to spotless. If they then get a warrant, there will be a tape recorder and a lawyer present. It's great to have 2 lawyers in the family.
~D~ likes this.
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#25 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Try looking on kellymom.com



When I read Protecting the Gift, Gavin DeBecker says not to tell your kids to find a police officer (in some places that could take a long time) or a security guard (statistically more dangerous than a random person), but to tell them that if they're lost to find a woman and tell her you need to find your mom or dad. A woman is more likely to not leave the situation until she sees the kid with a parent.
yeah, i wanted to address this too. i could never ever direct my kids to the police on purpose.
send them to a woman, and a mom if possible.
i mean, if they go to a cop, and the cop does help your kid find you, doesn't that seem like sort of an invitation? the cops ARE who CPS brings with them sometimes, YK. i've never heard a story of 'my kid got lost in the mall and then CPS investigated us', but there are quite a few stories that *I* haven't heard.

so, where do you all think the most appropriate forum is for this topic? i would like to eventually refine it into a small essay of sorts and see it stickied.

for me, the most upsetting thing is just how the general opinion of CPS is so ignorant and naive. if we can help spread the word here, that's a good thing.

oh yeah, i used to keep our videorecorder charged and ready to go. now the kids are into it and it always ends up uncharged. nonetheless, i would be highly likely to start the voicerecorder, then say, 'excuse me while i turn on my videorecorder', even if it had no battery power! anything to send the message that you're not interested in any shenanigans.
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#26 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 11:37 AM
 
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I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)

CPS DOES need a warrant to enter your home without your permission. This is the fourth amendment (protection against unreasonable search and seizure) and is not for the state to disregard. If CPS says "let us in or we'll take away your children" that is also unlawful.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#27 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 11:50 AM
 
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After my sister died in 2002 CPS contacted my parents. They insisted on doing an investigation. They tried to continue this even after it was medically proven that her death was caused by an undetected congenital defect that effects 3 % of the population.

My parent's contacted a lawyer. They did NOT allow CPS into their home.

The investigation was closed shortly thereafter.
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#28 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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After my sister died in 2002 CPS contacted my parents. They insisted on doing an investigation. They tried to continue this even after it was medically proven that her death was caused by an undetected congenital defect that effects 3 % of the population.

My parent's contacted a lawyer. They did NOT allow CPS into their home.

The investigation was closed shortly thereafter.
thank your for sharing. i am so sorry about your little sister.

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#29 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 12:06 PM
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Gavin DeBecker warns against finding a 'cop' because not just good people are in uniforms. Think of all the rent-a-cops in the malls : Anyone can throw on a uniform, but statistically, a mom with kids is not likely to be an abuser.
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#30 of 206 Old 04-07-2007, 12:09 PM
 
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I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)
umm, okay, so if you dont give permission for them to enter your home, then they cant come in according to this, but then you say they dont need anything, but can just come in. there has to be something in between here that says howthey can get in if you say no, because other than that, what youve said kind of doesnt make sense and sounds contradictory to what you said before
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one of mine that i have not employed yet-
in IN, you can legally call CPS anytime to see if your name has any complaints against it.

i think it might be way cool if you could get fifty or sixty people to call every day to check in.
and not to pick on you, but this sounds like red flagging them to you having some problem they need to be aware of, rather than making you look good, imho...

i know another one. dont go to a hospital if youre weak and sick. no, seriously. :mad: :sigh:

definitely somehow find supportive people who will help you

live in a community with a real sense of exactly that rather than just a bunch of people stuck near eachother because thery happen to own/rent homes near each other

this isnt realistic around here, but would help- dont do anything non mainstream except the smacking/spanking thing. if youre normal and go with what everyone ELSE does, theres no reason to pick on you because theres something funny about the way you do things, and even with not spanking, since someone could constrew it as abuse, no matter how light the smack.... that could end up being youre a weirdo who lets their kid run wild...

dont ever let anyone see the inside of your house unless its immaculate

if your child has any dirt or food on them, wash them imnmediatly and change clothes if at all soiled

im trying to think here but even doing things perfectly can make people suspicious in itself, sop in some ways youre just stuck and have to hope nothing happens and you never meet a busybody in your life on top of that!
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