CPS Advice - Update: #300,Those who have dealt w/CPS-You,too..?? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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UPDATE: so they DID come back today,unexpectedly. i did not feel prepared,and did some quick cleaning and ended up letting her in. she only took pictures of our food (which she seemed quite happy with) and the children..my little guy has autism and hates clothes,so..ugh..oy. and of our bed. i DID end up signing the plan. ours states that in the two-three weeks given,we will clean up any water (the only water on the floor right now is from turning it on yesterday to show them and it flooded again from that) and clean our kitchen-its not horrible,but we are stacking/packing things and with no water there have been some dirty dishes. i am hoping and praying it will all be okay. i really really am. i truly thank each and every one of you who has written here and pmed me. it has really gotten me through this. i have no words to say how much it means to me..but thank you,thank you.
i will update when i have any news. right now ive just go to focus on getting things arranged. one biggie is getting the new water heater installed (money wise) but that should be alright. hopefully a family member will help us (my father-in-law..bless him i hate asking but i think we will have to.) i am now trying to relax..ive had far too much stress in two days time..im really tired. i am still quite scared/nervous and i want to trust all i have been told and i want it to work out quickly/simply.


OP: i am weary as i have just had this happen today,but long story short a neighbour called on us. she isnt very nice and im not sure why she does this but anyway,we havent done anything wrong (and we are not being accused of physical,sexual,or verbal abuse. i suppose it would be more along the lines of 'neglect' due to some house fixtures breaking recently which she found out about,however all of these things are being taken care of as we speak and some things were just downright lies-ie that 'we didnt have heat all winter'.)
anyway i am pretty much scared out of my mind and i just keep crying. they have to come in and see everything and here we are in the midst of sorting for a move and at a time when we are desperate for new carpetting (we have NO money). we are trying to make any repairs we need to and to sort out all of our boxes but this is just a horrible situation. if you have any advice you could offer about dealing with cps,any links to any info,or anything similar please share if with me. via pm or i can send my email through pm or just right here is fine too.

im tired and sick and sad. i just need to get through this,for my babies :
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#2 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 05:18 PM
 
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I'm so sorry! Here is a link that might be helpful:
http://www.fightcpspackets.info/Pare...TheSystem.html

In the meantime, I hope all goes well for you!

Homeschooling mom of 2 rambunctious, loving, spectacular boys, wife to an incredible man who has been my best friend on this journey <3

 

 

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#3 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 05:43 PM
 
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If you need to prove that you had heat this winter you could get copies of your utility bills. (If you don't have the bills still perhaps you could ask for them at the utility company.)


They really are not out to get you. I know it seems like it, but they are just going to follow up on the referral they receive.


I AM sorry that this is happening to you.


The link above is good except for the first part. CPS workers do not bring search warrants, as they are not "searching your house". POLICE OFFICERS get search warrants, CPS workers get Pick-Up Orders, not search warrants. This has been covered before on MDC, but it bears repeating.
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#4 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 05:47 PM
 
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Sorry this is happening.

knit.gifMama to reading.gif  and  babygirl.gif
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#5 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 06:13 PM
 
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They do not have a right to come in without a warrant or court order. I would suggest you not allow it. If you DO allow them in, make SURE you have a lawyer there. Get a lawyer. Now. A good one.

Tape all interactions with them.

good luck.

-Angela
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#6 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 07:53 PM
 
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Again, (and this has been stated before, but erroneous information keeps getting spread about this......) CPS WORKERS DO NOT BRING SEARCH WARRANTS! Police Officers bring search warrants. You CAN deny them entrance to your home, suggest that they meet at the office, etc, but part of the investigation is seeing your home. If you want to do that with a lawyer, that is fine, or with a family friend, to witness what was said/done.


Police Officers bring search warrants because they are searching for evidence of a crime. CPS workers, at least in my state, do not obtain search warrants. The only warrants a CPS worker would obtain is a Pick-Up Order. (Order for Emergency Custody) If I were to ask one of the judge's for a search warrant he would say,"are you a police officer today?" It just doesn't work that way, even if that misinformed website says it does. (They are right about some other things,though, not knocking the website, they have simply posted info that is wrong and a lot of people unknowingly quote it.)
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#7 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post
Again, (and this has been stated before, but erroneous information keeps getting spread about this......) CPS WORKERS DO NOT BRING SEARCH WARRANTS! Police Officers bring search warrants. You CAN deny them entrance to your home, suggest that they meet at the office, etc, but part of the investigation is seeing your home. If you want to do that with a lawyer, that is fine, or with a family friend, to witness what was said/done.


Police Officers bring search warrants because they are searching for evidence of a crime. CPS workers, at least in my state, do not obtain search warrants. The only warrants a CPS worker would obtain is a Pick-Up Order. (Order for Emergency Custody) If I were to ask one of the judge's for a search warrant he would say,"are you a police officer today?" It just doesn't work that way, even if that misinformed website says it does. (They are right about some other things,though, not knocking the website, they have simply posted info that is wrong and a lot of people unknowingly quote it.)
You do not have to let a CPS worker in without a warrant. Period.

No, they don't usually have them. And they DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT to come into your home. Don't give up that right by inviting them in.

-Angela
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#8 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 08:33 PM
 
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__________

Child Abuse and Neglect Statues
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwi...arch/index.cfm

Find a Lawyer referral under "Services"
http://www.falseallegation.org/index.shtml

Parents Guide to Dealing With CPS
http://www.familyrightsassociation.c...parents_guide/

CPS Watch provides free legal research to parents and pro bono attorneys. To make a research request online, go to www.cpswatch.com/resources/researchhelp.htm. You may also make requests by mail.

Fighting Child Protective Services False Accusations
http://www.fightcps.com/

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#9 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 08:38 PM
 
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Tapmilkmom: I understand that workers do not get search warrants. I also understand that visiting the house is part of your protocal, however none of this is my problem

I have the right to refuse entry to any person (even CPS workers) without a warrant. The end.

OP....I am so sorry. Please clean and safety like a mad woman. Are they coming back? What is the next step?

Please do research. Do not sign anything until you have a game plan and have done some research/gotten a lawyer (which i know will be difficult due to finances, (((HUGS))))))

In conversations say as little as possible - I have heard of things being misconstrued.

Are your children school-aged? They may be questioned at school. Consider typing up a card that says "I insist on being questionned with my parent present" - and give it to the child. Otherwise they can and will question your child without you! Once again research, research, research!

Kathy
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#10 of 305 Old 06-04-2007, 08:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post
Again, (and this has been stated before, but erroneous information keeps getting spread about this......) CPS WORKERS DO NOT BRING SEARCH WARRANTS! Police Officers bring search warrants. You CAN deny them entrance to your home, suggest that they meet at the office, etc, but part of the investigation is seeing your home. If you want to do that with a lawyer, that is fine, or with a family friend, to witness what was said/done.


Police Officers bring search warrants because they are searching for evidence of a crime. CPS workers, at least in my state, do not obtain search warrants. The only warrants a CPS worker would obtain is a Pick-Up Order. (Order for Emergency Custody) If I were to ask one of the judge's for a search warrant he would say,"are you a police officer today?" It just doesn't work that way, even if that misinformed website says it does. (They are right about some other things,though, not knocking the website, they have simply posted info that is wrong and a lot of people unknowingly quote it.)

I don't recall anyone being under the impression that CPS gets warrants. What is meant by "don't let them in without a warrant" is that one does not have to let CPS into one's home unless they are accompanied by a police officer with a warrant. Part of the investigation or not, one does not have to let a CPS worker into one's home with out a warrant (and its requisite police officer). Most people know that police, not CPS obtain a warrant; even if they don't CPS sure does and I'm sure they would not be confused by the request, would go through the proper channels, and not embarass themselves .

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#11 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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thank you so very much,everyone!!
i am reading all of the replies/links.

anyone with any thing else to add,do feel free!!

*bumps thread for herself*
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#12 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 02:46 AM
 
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You might pm tummy She has some first hand knowledge.

-Angela
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#13 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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thanks angela,i just sent her a pm
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#14 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 04:07 AM
 
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Where I am workers DO get search warrants...

When they are served the police are present.

I once got a search warrant to see a certain room the parents were blocking me from seeing... this was an ONGOING case BTW. With the state attorney, we petitioned the court, got the order and took it to the local police department and the police accompanied me.
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#15 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 07:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by intorainbowz View Post
Where I am workers DO get search warrants...

When they are served the police are present.

I once got a search warrant to see a certain room the parents were blocking me from seeing... this was an ONGOING case BTW. With the state attorney, we petitioned the court, got the order and took it to the local police department and the police accompanied me.
Am I the only one to wonder what was in that room?? :

OP: Not much help to offer, but . I've been there with the false accusations of neglect. Ours was from a friend (now EX-friend), no less! It sucked, but the CPS worker came by and could see it was total BS, so it was over pretty quickly. I hope the same happens for you, and if I were you, after it's all done, I'd confront the mean lady that called you in and give her a bitching out she'd not soon forget! :


Serendipity
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#16 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 07:51 AM
 
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OP: Not much help to offer, but . I've been there with the false accusations of neglect.
This, every word of it. I am so sorry, Mama. I know what a nightmare it feels like right now. {{HUGS}}
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#17 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post
CPS workers, at least in my state, do not obtain search warrants. The only warrants a CPS worker would obtain is a Pick-Up Order. (Order for Emergency Custody) If I were to ask one of the judge's for a search warrant he would say,"are you a police officer today?" It just doesn't work that way
I'm just curious... but what would you do if a person refused you entry? Say that you knocked on someone's door and you said you represent "CPS" (or your respective agency), and that you need to come inside and see the house and the children, and they said no.

You can't push the door open and enter their home without permission, that's illegal. So what would you do?

ETA: I asked you this on another thread once before and you didn't answer the question. I hope you take the time to explain it this time, as I'm sure there are quite a few of us who are interested in how this kind of thing works. Not being snarky, I really genuinely want to know.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#18 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 10:41 AM
 
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#19 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 10:43 AM
 
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I've dealt with CPS twice and got through it ok, technically, legally. But I know how scary this is for you mama
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#20 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 10:52 AM
 
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Am I the only one to wonder what was in that room??
You are sooooo not the only one!

OP - hugs and prayers to you and your family.
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#21 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:09 PM
 
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I'm just curious... but what would you do if a person refused you entry? Say that you knocked on someone's door and you said you represent "CPS" (or your respective agency), and that you need to come inside and see the house and the children, and they said no.

You can't push the door open and enter their home without permission, that's illegal. So what would you do?

ETA: I asked you this on another thread once before and you didn't answer the question. I hope you take the time to explain it this time, as I'm sure there are quite a few of us who are interested in how this kind of thing works. Not being snarky, I really genuinely want to know.


You are correct, I would NOT push my way into their home. I have only ever had ONE person tell me that I could not enter. I thanked them for their time and returned with the police. The police spoke with them, the client agreed that we could enter, and we did.


You are correct that forcefully entering someone's home is not allowed. (and I believe that it is illegal)

I didn't realize that this question was asked before on another thread. (It was probably one of those times that I just gave up after saying the same thing over and over.) I do know that on other threads people become VERY defensive about this subject and when I have tried to tell them what the policies and laws are like in my state that it quickly becomes heated and I am not sure why. I am genuinely telling people what would work/not work in the state where I live. In this state if a client were to say, "Not without a warrant" it just wouldn't make sense. Sure, they can say that, they are "allowed" to say anything, but I liken it to giving birth in a hospital and saying,"you WILL NOT perform an appendectomy on my newborn!!" and the staff would likely say,"uh, we weren't planning on it!"


Telling people 'don't sign a safety plan' at least makes sense in terms of that is something that is actually used. Is this making sense at all? I feel like when I post on these threads it quickly spirals into,"Oh, yeah, you don't know how to do your job, then!" because of what people have read on some of those websites. (again, not all bad information, much of it was true!)


I understand what everyone is saying in that "just because CPS has an investigation to do, it isn't MY problem". Well, if it is about YOUR family, then it IS your problem. They will have to see the home. period. Whether or not you have a lawyer, whether or not you record the conversations, they HAVE to see the home. NONE of my investigations could have been closed/completed without seeing the home. Reason? Working meth lab undetected because the worker never saw the home, filthy home, etc.


I understand the feeling of government interferrence, invasion, etc. I do, I get that, but that doesn't make their duty to see the home, interview the children, etc. any less real.


I came home from class today and read this thread and had that familiar feeling like,"why did I bother to post on this thread? They think they know it already, so why bother?" So many moms here research the heck outta things, but, in this instance, where you have someone who actually DOES THE JOB....well, in other threads I have been told that I don't know what I am talking about, don't know how to do my job, I'm lying, etc.


Pretty soon I will just take the hint already and stop trying to help. I have a dear friend who was harassed by DHS. I understand the fear, but I would only give her advice that would help her. IN THIS STATE demanding a warrant would accomplish nothing.



ETA: Is there a way for us to communicate about this in a civil manner? I understand that you said,"no snark intended", but the tone of "I hope you take the time to explain it this time" felt a bit snarkish. Let me reiterate I am genuinely trying to help, as I believe you are. Obviously, CPS does things differently in different states, as highlighted by a previous poster who said that in her state they would get a warrant.


Let me say again, I BELIEVE THAT ANYONE WHO IS TRYING TO HELP ANOTHER MDC'ER ON HERE IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO HELP AND HAS GOOD INTENTIONS. I was only trying to offer MY experience.
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#22 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:16 PM
 
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Tapmilkmom,
did the police have a warrant? What would have happened if the person still refused entry? Does it depend on what they are accused of?

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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#23 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:17 PM
 
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Sorry- you turn up at my door with a cop with no warrant, you're not getting in. And I don't have to let you. People in your state don't have to let you without a warrant either.

-Angela
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#24 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:31 PM
 
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Okay, here is what I was trying to say before and I don't think it is coming out right. When someone posts on MDC about CPS inevitably someone else will post the websites that were linked on the front end of this thread with their advice on what to do next.


My concern is that people look at those sites and come up with a gameplan (that part is GOOD!), but, perhaps it is the wrong gameplan for their area. I would hate to see a parent saying,"Okay, we are going to tape conversations and demand a warrant, etc." and not have the tools to help them in their particular situation.



I removed a newborn one time and the mom was furiously calling her lawyer. When she stated the lawyers name I knew it was the public defender. As bad as felt for ths mom, losing her newborn baby, I felt better that this baby was hopefully going to be spared what his siblings endured in that home. She felt certain that calling her lawyer was going to stop what was happening, but it wasn't. Her lawyer had told her to call when we came, but didn't explain to her that she wasn't going to be able to stop it. She had only partial information.


It is easy to read a lot of stories about CPS abuse and see someone who works for them and want to demonize that person. I understand that. Just remember that there are many cases of ACTUAL ABUSE AND NEGLECT that are worked by CPS workers, too and that it is not all, "ohmygod, they are having a homebirth/breastfeeding/homeschooling, GO GET EM!!"


Yes, I saw plenty of, "I'm mad at you so I'm calling CPS" and they really pissed me off because while I'm at their home saying,"sorry, but we have to investigate every call we get" some abused and/or neglected child just had to wait longer to get help. :
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#25 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:32 PM
 
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I was never denied entry with a police officer present.

ETA: and the police did not have a warrant, no.


I don't know what would have happened if they refused entry to the police, I guess that would have been probable cause, but I don't really know because that is getting into the area of criminal justice and that is where the police are knowledgeable, not me.


Yes, I DO think it has something to do with the allegations. If the allegations, for example, were educational neglect, it wouldn't be so urgent, but if the allegation was infant failure to thrive or ANYTHING shocking and heinous, they would do something else.
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#26 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 08:56 PM
 
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Tapmilkmom:

Theoretically...if a person denied a CPS worker without a warrant entry, what would happen?

a) in all cases would you seek a warrant from a judge?
b) in some cases you would seek a warrant,and in some you would drop it?

and if a judge did not grant a warrant would you drop the file, or leave it open but unteneded, or try again without a warrant?

Do you beleive that those who refuse entry are doing so because "they have something to hide"? Does it weigh into the investigation?

Genuinely curious (I believe information is power) - and thank you very much for responding to the previous questions.

Kathy
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#27 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 09:01 PM
 
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I was never denied entry with a police officer present.

ETA: and the police did not have a warrant, no.


I don't know what would have happened if they refused entry to the police, I guess that would have been probable cause, but I don't really know because that is getting into the area of criminal justice and that is where the police are knowledgeable, not me.


Yes, I DO think it has something to do with the allegations. If the allegations, for example, were educational neglect, it wouldn't be so urgent, but if the allegation was infant failure to thrive or ANYTHING shocking and heinous, they would do something else.
Unless the allegations were something severe, the cops wouldn't have probable cause.

-Angela
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#28 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 09:02 PM
 
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Police can only come in sans warrent if they feel it is an emergency situation. That is their discretion. So, yes, they may strong arm their way in. It happens. I would walk out a back door & lock it behind me, walk to your car, pretend to be leaving, with your child. Have a cell, CALL A LAWYER. Allow the police to see, outdoors, the child is well, not in immediate harm. Go to a friends or relitives house and NOT return home until a lawyer is secured & your rights are defined.

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#29 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 09:03 PM
 
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Unless the allegations were something severe, the cops wouldn't have probable cause.

-Angela

or if there was an immediate danger based on what they could see and/or hear from standing on the porch....they risk their badge otherwise.

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#30 of 305 Old 06-05-2007, 09:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rmzbm View Post
Police can only come in sans warrent if they feel it is an emergency situation. That is their discretion. So, yes, they may strong arm their way in. It happens. I would walk out a back door & lock it behind me, walk to your car, pretend to be leaving, with your child. Have a cell, CALL A LAWYER. Allow the police to see, outdoors, the child is well, not in immediate harm. Go to a friends or relitives house and NOT return home until a lawyer is secured & your rights are defined.

I think this is VERY sound advice.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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