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#61 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 06:33 PM
 
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Sure, lets focus on the golddigging women. How about the men who do this? I've only had experience with the men who think american women are evil feminist bitches who don't know how to take care of a man. These men appear to be quite abusive, so no one here who knows them wants them. I'm sure not all the guys are like that, but..

When the gov't passes a law that requires anyone bringing a 'mail order spouse' into the country to inform the foreign national of the american spouse's criminal record, and the men think that's incredibly unfair, you have to wonder.
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#62 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
Is a choice where the alternative is a life in poverty (and not the style of poverty that we have here in the United States) really a choice?

With all respect, Brigianna, I think your view on this is a little limited. Maybe by your own experience. It's sort of like the "why doesn't she just leave??" argument about battered women.



I don't think that there is such thing as a reputable agency when the product is a woman's life. I might waiver on that a bit if the woman, herself, were receiving the bulk of the money. Now, if it's an international dating service where the agency doesn't get paid for enabling marriages, that's a different story.
Unfortunately, many people do live in poverty. I don't think it's wrong for them to try to get out of poverty though marriage. I don't judge them for it. I think it's an unwise decision, but one that they should be free to make. As for the agencies, well, they are businesses. They are of course looking for profit. But the reputable agencies are not forcing women to participate. They have enough women who want to be mail-order brides, especially in Eastern Europe, where, for the most part, it isn't the women's only option at all, but it is what many of them choose.





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Originally Posted by hanno View Post
I've done this and we've been married nearly 6 years, have a baby and are very happy. I met my (American) husband at a rave and emailed 2 times and stopped for a year and a half. I cleaned out my inbox and messaged him to say 'hi'. Emailed back and forth for a couple weeks, talked on the phone a few times. He came to visit me in Montreal once and then came back to get me 3 weeks later (he wanted to stay in the US near family) and we got married days later in Michigan where we still live.
And, it wasn't even the 1st time I've done something similar. In my early 20s I dropped out of college to move to Syracuse NY to get engage to a woman I met in a chat room and hadn't met.


Anyway, the OP's acquaintance doesn't sound like the ideal husband but it has little to do with the mail order factor.
I know it works out sometimes. I'm glad it worked out for you. In general, though, I don't think it's a good idea. People lie, especially over a long distance...






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Originally Posted by the sunshine View Post
Sure, lets focus on the golddigging women. How about the men who do this? I've only had experience with the men who think american women are evil feminist bitches who don't know how to take care of a man. These men appear to be quite abusive, so no one here who knows them wants them. I'm sure not all the guys are like that, but..

When the gov't passes a law that requires anyone bringing a 'mail order spouse' into the country to inform the foreign national of the american spouse's criminal record, and the men think that's incredibly unfair, you have to wonder.
I don't think feeling alienated from your culture equates to being abusive. As I mentioned, my husband considered this at one time because he was fed up with American culture. He also did work abroad and strongly considered moving overseas, although that didn't work out. There are valid reasons why someone would choose this.... but I still think it's a bad idea. Maybe if they got to know each other better in person before the marriage, I would not be so cynical about it, but the rapid meeting, then marriage, without even learning each other's language, seems like a recipe for trouble.
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#63 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 06:54 PM
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Check up for marraige? They still do this?
It waas probably for immigration. Yes, all foreign nationals must have a medical exam when applying for US residence. Likely that was what she was doing.

As for MOB's, I have somewhat mixed feelings. On the one hand, often both parties get what they want. The man gets a housekeeper and cook, and the woman gets to immigrate to the US legally. If they both agree to those terms, that is their choice. And if she can stick out the marriage for two years, she will get her green card and can divorce the guy and do whatever she wants. If she can't stick it out, unfortunately for the man, it is well known in MOB circles that you can (falsely) claim domestic abuse, leave the guy, and be granted asylum. Although, I do wonder how often real abuse happens in these situations. Probably far too often

Dunno. Another board I'm on is full of guys married to MOBs (it's a forum for international relationships and mariages). Some of the guys are actually decent folk, but others are completely off their rockers.

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#64 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When it isn't making me throw up in my mouth a little, the phrase "gold digging woman" is making me laugh my ass off. This guy is not remotely rich, and he isn't bringing her to some glamorous, wealthy town. He lives in a dumpy little town in Iowa (no offense Iowans) in a dumpy little place that he has never bothered to fix up-no furniture to speak of, totally bare walls-like the kind of place you would imagine an 18 year old guy living in.
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#65 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama ganoush View Post
When it isn't making me throw up in my mouth a little, the phrase "gold digging woman" is making me laugh my ass off. This guy is not remotely rich, and he isn't bringing her to some glamorous, wealthy town. He lives in a dumpy little town in Iowa (no offense Iowans) in a dumpy little place that he has never bothered to fix up-no furniture to speak of, totally bare walls-like the kind of place you would imagine an 18 year old guy living in.
Does she know this? She may be in for a bit of a disappointment...
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#66 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 10:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama ganoush View Post
Really. And neither speaks a word of the other's language.
My greatgrandparents didn't speak much of the other's language and they married the day after they met

She picked him because he was reading and she wanted a man who could read. He picked her because she had large hands and he thought she would be a hard worker.

ETA: since they were both new immigrants there were fewer of the power issues that there can be with MOBs. Just that ones that would have come from marrying ANY man. And my g-grandmother certainly didn't know much about the man she was marrying
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#67 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 10:20 PM
 
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I personally know 2 mail order brides that live in our small town. They are both from the Philippines. They are both married to men 20-30 years older than them. They both have had 2 children with said men. If you ask them, they are happy. They have a better life, a husband that dotes on them and beautiful children. They have enough money to send home to help their families. It might not seem ideal to many of us, but these couples have made it work. Both couples have been together at least 6 years.

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#68 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 10:22 PM
 
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Check up for marraige? They still do this?
Not normally, but I guess it was because she just came into the country.
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#69 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 10:30 PM
 
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But wait, it gets even better. The man hasn't had a girlfriend since high school, merely a string of drunken one night stands. He is an alcoholic, and I am pretty sure is a closeted gay man as well.
To be fair I know more than one person who married someone who would fit this description who was not a MOB and who had known the man in question for some time

It does sound tough. I hope the woman in question is a strong woman
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#70 of 135 Old 12-24-2007, 11:37 PM
 
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Oh . My .
is all I can say...

Haven't read all of the responses though...









Michelle, vegan mama to my two sweeties, L, 4/21/04 and C, 10/29/06 married to my Bryce for 20 years.

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#71 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 05:48 AM
 
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Here's a book I'm reading:

Shattered Dreams, Broken Promises: The Cost of Coming to America by Michael Viner.

Eye opening is all I have to say.
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#72 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 05:49 AM
 
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Funnily enough, last night I watched a programme called 'Diary of a mail order bride'.......
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#73 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 05:54 AM
 
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where i live, there are several men who "meet" Phillipino women and end up getting married after meeting with them a couple of times in the Phillipines. also, in our Lebanese community, there are still arranged marriages. it's kind of cute - they will deny it even though they go on a three week "trip" to Lebanon and then return with a wife
all this in my bitty bitty town of 2400.

my husband worked with a guy who had a mail order bride.
There are a lot of Indians in my neighborhood and some of them have arranged marriages. The couple I know best is pretty open about it and they consider themselves quite lucky to actually enjoy each other's company. His mom placed an ad in the newspaper and her family answered it. She barely knew him before the wedding day. They have two kids and seem as happy as anyone else.
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#74 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 12:58 PM
 
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Arranged marriages aren't anything like MOB.

I have to say, I realized what REALLY squicks me out about this whole thing - it is woman as commodity. Guy thinks he can't find a wife for whatever reason, he can just go out and buy one. How civilized.
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#75 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 01:01 PM
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Arranged marriages aren't anything like MOB.

I have to say, I realized what REALLY squicks me out about this whole thing - it is woman as commodity.
Playing devil's advocate....Isn't it just as much seeing men as a passport and wallet?

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#76 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 01:11 PM
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BTW, has anyone seen the movie "A Foreign Affair"? Overall a terrible film, but funny at times

(About MOBs and the men who seek them.)

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#77 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 01:18 PM
 
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Playing devil's advocate....Isn't it just as much seeing men as a passport and wallet?
She is the one being bought, so is the one with less power, so no. I don't think it's the same.

I do see what you're saying though.
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#78 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 01:22 PM
 
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Given the high number of divorce and other marital problems among married people who know each other well and are of the same culture... I can see how, if I were on the singles market, I might think a stranger from another country might be a good idea. Why not?

Now, the alcoholic, gay, never had a real girlfriend, don't speak a word of each other's languages part may pose a wee bit of a problem...
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#79 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 02:12 PM
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She is the one being bought, so is the one with less power, so no. I don't think it's the same.

I do see what you're saying though.
In many cases, I would agree with you. However, I do know of a few cases where I would say that it was the men who were used/taken advantage of.

For example, I a have a friend--we met online, but have talked on the phone a number of times, we e-mail regularly, etc. He is a good person. He has a good heart and is well intentioned. However, he is a single father of four children (his ex is a meth addict, pretty psychotic, and has been MIA for a while--but that's neither here nor there). He is raising these kids by himself and works his butt off to do it. He became lonely after a while and wanted some companionship and once while online came across an MOB site. Just for the heck of it, he contacted a woman. He went to visit her (actually more than once), and tried to develop a real relationship of some kind before bringing her over. She was divorced from an abusive alcoholic and has a pre-teen daughter. She was poor with no prospects where she lived and wanted out.

Anyway, he feel in love. He didn't lie about who he was (i.e. a bunch of kids, basically a working single father, he is AA which obviously she knew and he told her that he lives in a predominantly AA neighborhood, etc.). She was all lovey dovey and played the whole game.

He brought her over, married her, and then the complaints started. Nothing was right, nothing was good enough for her, she hated his kids, she couldn't live in such a neighborhood with its "dirty people", she wanted a nicer house, and her own NEW car, etc., etc. She made his life hell and eventually moved out.

He loved her and held out hope that somehow they would reconcile. He still does. He offerred to pay for her and her daughter to live in a separate apartment so that they could have time to think things over, re-establish communication, etc.

But he hasn't heard from her since September. She has cut off all communicatin with him. She has apparantly found a job through another immigrant from her home country and is now paying her own bills. She no longer needs him, apparently, and will have nothing to do with him.

He is heartbroken and, imo, doesn't deserve to be treated this way

So who used who here?

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#80 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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I am married to a Filipino man and know several women who would qualify as mail order brides. Some of them are happy in their marriages, some of them aren't but none of the women I have talked with regret their decision.

Being in Canada has allowed them to send money back to the Phillipines, sponsor family members to immigrate, get a better education and live a life very different from the one they were living back home. Almost all of them travel back to the Phillipines for a few months every year to visit family as well.

Is it the best situation in the world? No, but these women saw an opportunity to get out of their situation and at the same time make life for thier family back home better at the same time.
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#81 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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Not normally, but I guess it was because she just came into the country.
yes they still do it, a full medical exam is part of the INS requirements for residency status.
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#82 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 03:15 PM
 
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I've read just the opposite.

Oh, well. I guess it's funny when women are forced to sell themselves to get out of poverty. It's also a real riot when those women tolerate sometimes severe abuse because they don't want to chance being deported. And it's especially hilarious when women enter into arrangements where they essentially expect to buy their freedom from mail-order brokers and find that they never quite get there. Laugh a minute.
If a woman calls the police on a abusive spouse and has a record of it, she will NOT be deported unless it can be proven she's lying which almost ever happens
My father's crazy ex gf learnt this and did it with her ex husband because she was a mail order bride, and her dh was old and basically got her as a nurse and refused to file for the rest of her family as she explains it.
I know of other cases where the dh really was crazy/abusive and the dw called the police and contacted INS and received their 10 year greencard with no issues.
As an immigrant I know of others who encourage immigrant wives to claim dv if the dh doesn't have the money to allow them to live in the way they would like.

I have no opinon on mail order brides personally since those who I know are crazy liars who claimed dv and left their dh's within a year of marriage and I don't think that's the norm
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#83 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 03:34 PM
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As an immigrant I know of others who encourage immigrant wives to claim dv if the dh doesn't have the money to allow them to live in the way they would like.
Yes, that does happen. My dh is on an immigrant forum (he is an immigrant) and that is a very popular of conversation among some of the women there. One piece of advice offered on that particular forum is to have a friend actually hit you a few times so that you can photograph bruises and "prove" the abuse in court. It sounds sick and twisted but people really do this sometimes.

What is truly tragic, however, is that often it is the women who are REALLY being abused who never seek help because they live in such fear of their husbands who also intentionally isolate them so that they have no one to turn to for help and support. And there have been cases of MOBs being murdered and, if not murdered, terribly abused and enslaved by their husbands. There ARE resources for such women--plenty of them, actually--but few women in such extreme situations have access to them because their husbands essentially cut them off from the outside world, or simpy because they have been threatened the way that abused women have been for years (no one will believe you, if you try anything I'll punish you, etc.).

I don't know. There are A LOT of stories out there of both men and women taking advantage of their spouse.

And I agree with one of PPs--men should have to submit to a background check before being allowed to petition for a fiance/spouse visa for a foreign national. The foreign national already has to submit police reports stating that they have never been accused or convincted of a crime in their home country (or anywhere that they have lived for more than 6 months since the age of 16). I think the US sponsor should have to do the same. As it is, there is NOTHING stopping a man who has a record of abusing or stalking former partners from sponsoring a foreign spouse and doing the same to her

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#84 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the sunshine View Post
Arranged marriages aren't anything like MOB.

I have to say, I realized what REALLY squicks me out about this whole thing - it is woman as commodity. Guy thinks he can't find a wife for whatever reason, he can just go out and buy one. How civilized.
:

I had an intern last year in her early 20s who was from India. Her family now lives in the United States and in outward appearances she looks very "American" - very cosmopolitan. She plans to adhere to the tradition of arranged marriage, though. It was fascinating hearing what she had to say about it and I found myself agreeing that there are things about the practice that make a lot of sense. That said, her situation is quite different from the circumstances in other arranged marriages. Her family knows her well and is looking out for her, not for themselves. She also has the option to say "no." I did think that her trust in her family to find someone suitable was refreshing and beautiful, and when she talked about her parents' first meeting and courting, it sounded very romantic.
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#85 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 07:45 PM
 
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If a woman calls the police on a abusive spouse and has a record of it, she will NOT be deported unless it can be proven she's lying which almost ever happens
Even if that's true (I haven't done the research, so I don't know), it matters less what will happen and more what the women believe will happen. Domestic violence is a serious problem with mail-order brides because many believe that reporting abuse will land them back in their home countries.
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#86 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 08:55 PM
 
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I'm finding this thread really disturbing - particularly that people feel like an industry that a) preys on women who are trying to escape poverty and b) leaves them incredibly vulnerable to abuse with no recourse is something to laugh about.
:
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#87 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 10:30 PM
 
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Even if that's true (I haven't done the research, so I don't know), it matters less what will happen and more what the women believe will happen. Domestic violence is a serious problem with mail-order brides because many believe that reporting abuse will land them back in their home countries.

It's the law, you apply for a wavier on these grounds

Good faith marriage (if the divorce is finalized when you file for the waiver). A good faith marriage can be proved by showing that the couple had a child and that the couple owned property. You will also need to file a copy of the final divorce decree.

Extreme hardship to the immigrant spouse if deported

Extreme cruelty and abuse from the U.S. citizen spouse ie dv

You have an interview to go to and take your proof and you are allowed to stay in the country

I'm black from the Caribbean, however most of other mother's at the reading group at the library are mostly Asians MOB and my father's ex is Asian originally a MOB, I was nicely given the DV piece of info when the girls at the library found out I was an immigrant because I don't drive and they thought that I should know that if he didn't give me a car I had options (scary but soo funny to me) I already knew it because I know someone with a truly abusive spouse who went through it but I believe that this piece of info is common knowledge in immigrant circles, I don't think many Americans know this because like EVC's dh I belong to immigrant forums and see many US spouses who come looking for info after a immigrant spouse claims abuse and they are left clueless as to what's going on.

Now I will say this, not one of the MOB I see weekly seems unhappy quite the opposite, a couple of them their spouse filed for their moms and they have their mother's with them, they seem happy and since they advised me of the law, I have to believe that if their dh's were abusive they would not be with them.
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#88 of 135 Old 12-25-2007, 11:59 PM
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but I believe that this piece of info is common knowledge in immigrant circles
It is well known in immigrant circles. And ways to exploit the system through false DV claims are fairly widely discussed. And on occasion carried out with lots of good laughs about it (and about their "stupid American husbands") on the relevent forums.

Of course, the problem is that some MOBs do not have access to other immigrants (or to the internet) to find this info out. That's what I mean by the ones who REALLY need the info (i.e. the ones really being exploited and abused by their husbands) often don't know about it because the truly abusive husbands often go to great lengths to isolate them and cut them off from all potential sources of information like this.

But, yes, I know for a fact that the exploitation CAN and sometimes DOES go both ways in the MOB business.

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#89 of 135 Old 12-26-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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So who used who here?
That does suck.

It doesn't change the fact that he thought he could buy a wife.

It also seems that most, if not all of the happy marriages from this situation are Filipino. I wonder why.
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#90 of 135 Old 12-26-2007, 01:17 AM
 
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You should really do some research on the mail-order bride industry and human trafficking.

In the meantime, it might also help to remember that many, if not most, of these women have very different lives than you or I do. What looks like gold-digging from your comparatively privileged perspective may actually be survival or escape from a life that you can't possibly imagine. Or it may, in fact, be "glorified" slavery.
:

My cousin's ex-friend did business in the Russian "mail order bride" industry. Scary stuff. Very sad.

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