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#121 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 12:58 AM
 
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No, she wasn't asking or putting a theoretical scenario up for consideration. She said something offensive that was intended to put down a group of people based on their neuro status. When called on it, she said it was a joke.
Actually, go read the way-back posts in the SN forum. You'll find many references to this joke. In fact, many had custom user titles to the same effect. (and why I put my "happy in my alternative reality" title up way back then) It started due to a video made by a guy name Christschool on YouTube called "Neurotypical Everyday" (A spoof on the "Autism Everyday" video put out by Autism Speaks). He has taken a break from video making though, so unfortunately, that particular video is not on YouTube ATM or I'd link it for you. (although we're all hoping he puts his videos back up). And then a spin off of the Wired Magazine article called "The Geek Syndrome" that highlights the high levels of Autism in Sylicone Valley and talks about how Autistics are breeding and thus spawning more Autistics and how they are drawn to computer sciences yada yada yada. So no, I didn't try to back peddle on something... you simply assumed I was offending and didn't know the back story. When I said there WAS a back story you are again assuming I'm making it up. So there you have it.

BTW, Wired Magazine had and AWESOME article about Amanda Baggs and others like her in the current March issue. I am totally bringing my copy around for family members to read.

Mom to Joscelyne 14, Andrew 12, and Mackenzie 10 and wife to Nate.
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#122 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:06 AM
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periwinkle:

"Debugging" as in.... what exactly? I assume from what you wrote that you mean being less likely to reproduce, i.e., a Darwinian perspective of "debugging"?

no, as in computer programming.

if we assume that this autism spectrum is really the process of new programing to make an evolutionary jump, that might even be based on a new wiring process of the hardware itself--not just the soft ware of how we think--then we might notice why it's such a diverse spectrum and how it has such a beautiful array of manifestations.

this does not mean that various "therapies" shouldn't be utilized--i believe that most of the therapies--from physical therapy to educational methodology changes to dietary changes--are within the new, specialized and individuated needs of this evolutionary jump.

i believe that we're making this jump as a group--not just handed down via DNA gen-to-gen. but that it comes from the thought/need, and then the biology follows.

the biology goes through it's process, it's experimentations of what works, and eventually certain aspects will "fall away" because they aren't necessary, and other aspects will remain, and beyond or within all of this, a New Human will arise.

perhaps that New Human has already arisen, but we are struggling to recognize it.

as, i believe, a "neurotypical" i'm quite outdated like a computer from 1986. some of these autistsic and aspergers folks--my own age and younger--have some incredibly dynamic insights. sure, special diets, perhaps special therapies and methods and devices too, but some really dynamic insights into the nature of thinking and of being.

and so, even though i don't always "get it" and they don't get me because honestly, i'm "old school" as a NT, it's all good.

because i see it, at least possible that, this is part of the evollutionary jump and our bodies are trying to figure out what our need is, to create the brain that can work on that level.

(btw, my buddy with aspergers figured this out. he's a computer programmer by the way. we were talking about the relationship between indigo children, ADHD, and aspergers/autism spectrum--and all the relevant issues inherent such as that which "looks like' but isn't, people being misdiagnosed then "cured" and so on--and how if the indigo child is the evolutionary jump, perhaps the adhd and aspergers/autism is the methodology of achieving that evolutionary jump at the neurological level. he said "i'm just a bit buggy."

personally, i dont' find him buggy, or, he's just a buggy as i am. )
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#123 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:20 AM
 
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periwinkle:

"Debugging" as in.... what exactly? I assume from what you wrote that you mean being less likely to reproduce, i.e., a Darwinian perspective of "debugging"?

no, as in computer programming.

if we assume that this autism spectrum is really the process of new programing to make an evolutionary jump, that might even be based on a new wiring process of the hardware itself--not just the soft ware of how we think--then we might notice why it's such a diverse spectrum and how it has such a beautiful array of manifestations.

this does not mean that various "therapies" shouldn't be utilized--i believe that most of the therapies--from physical therapy to educational methodology changes to dietary changes--are within the new, specialized and individuated needs of this evolutionary jump.

i believe that we're making this jump as a group--not just handed down via DNA gen-to-gen. but that it comes from the thought/need, and then the biology follows.

the biology goes through it's process, it's experimentations of what works, and eventually certain aspects will "fall away" because they aren't necessary, and other aspects will remain, and beyond or within all of this, a New Human will arise.

perhaps that New Human has already arisen, but we are struggling to recognize it.

as, i believe, a "neurotypical" i'm quite outdated like a computer from 1986. some of these autistsic and aspergers folks--my own age and younger--have some incredibly dynamic insights. sure, special diets, perhaps special therapies and methods and devices too, but some really dynamic insights into the nature of thinking and of being.

and so, even though i don't always "get it" and they don't get me because honestly, i'm "old school" as a NT, it's all good.

because i see it, at least possible that, this is part of the evollutionary jump and our bodies are trying to figure out what our need is, to create the brain that can work on that level.

(btw, my buddy with aspergers figured this out. he's a computer programmer by the way. we were talking about the relationship between indigo children, ADHD, and aspergers/autism spectrum--and all the relevant issues inherent such as that which "looks like' but isn't, people being misdiagnosed then "cured" and so on--and how if the indigo child is the evolutionary jump, perhaps the adhd and aspergers/autism is the methodology of achieving that evolutionary jump at the neurological level. he said "i'm just a bit buggy."

personally, i dont' find him buggy, or, he's just a buggy as i am. )
Thats a cool way to think about it. When I say it, even as a joke, its offending apparantly, lmao. (BTW, I'm a Interactive Media Designer, ie: Web Designer. Popular job amoung Autistics, like many technical computer related jobs, because of the creativity, out of the box thinking and we're allowed to be quirky and work alone. Not to mention I can read code like a second language, lmao. I often say my brain works like HTML/CSS and I see in code.)

And I totally agree with the misdiagnosed and "cured" statement. If you can cure it, it wasn't Autism.

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#124 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:22 AM
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for what it's worth, wired has had a number of great articles about aspergers and autism, and that geek syndrome is a great one.

there is alot about how in the past, before a diagnosis, these folks were just considered "eccentric" and that they didn't have a lot of connections because there weren't clear methods for them to communicate. but, around others like them, everything just clicked.

our aspie friend caused an interesting stir at work, something that my hsuband and i thought fascinating.

there is a social standard at work that if there is something in another's mail box, no matter how curious, one doesn't open it. but, he was very curious--in order to plan out his work for the next quarter--what was in his manager's manager's box. he knew that this information would be what was "up and coming."

so, he grabbed it, opened it, copied it, kept a copy for himself, and then put it back in the appropriate mail box.

he was really reprimanded for going outside of the chain of command, and his manager kept saying "ok, if no one else is allowed to have this information until Z date, and if it's int he manager's box, do you understand why you shouldn't look at it?"

and he kept saying "no, because, see, i need to plan and i need to have this information before Z, so that i can get everything i need to done before Z, and thenset up to do what can be done from Z onward. some of those programming questions are tough, and i want to set my mind to them--in part--so that when we get to Z, i have some ideas already working and debugged."

she was incredibly exasperated with him, because he just couldn't figure why this was a problem.

he completely shattered the social expectation, and in part, he was actually right to do so. he did need the information ASAP, not on Z date, and he could utilize his time better that way.

it was only the social expectation of chain of command--which he doesn't really agree with as being valuable--that was the problem, not even that he knew the information OR had started working on that information.

you see, he does live and die by computer programming.

so, my husband who is understood to be a compassionate listener and good communicator (ie, come and mediate for us because we're freakin' out) was asked to come over to "explain" it to him.

instead, he explained to the manager and the manager's manager that the real problem was in how he needed to be approached to work effectively and feel secure in his job, and that, in this instance, their weird social rules were completely meaningless.

not because my hsuband is always pro our aspie friend, because sometimes he does explain certain social expectations again and again--or provide a "rule of thumb" statement for him--but other times, he's like "you're right dude, this is meaningless."

and so they adjust to him. now, when the manager's manager gets the info, he gets it. but even better, he's now at the planning meetings, sitting on the sidelines, taking notes. he then immediately begins working on programming 'sketches' on the various topics discussed.

so by the time they get to Z date about their programs, he has most of the ideas chased down, even if only half of the ideas are going to be implemented into programs.

win-win.
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#125 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:31 AM
 
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for what it's worth, wired has had a number of great articles about aspergers and autism, and that geek syndrome is a great one.

there is alot about how in the past, before a diagnosis, these folks were just considered "eccentric" and that they didn't have a lot of connections because there weren't clear methods for them to communicate. but, around others like them, everything just clicked.

our aspie friend caused an interesting stir at work, something that my hsuband and i thought fascinating.

there is a social standard at work that if there is something in another's mail box, no matter how curious, one doesn't open it. but, he was very curious--in order to plan out his work for the next quarter--what was in his manager's manager's box. he knew that this information would be what was "up and coming."

so, he grabbed it, opened it, copied it, kept a copy for himself, and then put it back in the appropriate mail box.

he was really reprimanded for going outside of the chain of command, and his manager kept saying "ok, if no one else is allowed to have this information until Z date, and if it's int he manager's box, do you understand why you shouldn't look at it?"

and he kept saying "no, because, see, i need to plan and i need to have this information before Z, so that i can get everything i need to done before Z, and thenset up to do what can be done from Z onward. some of those programming questions are tough, and i want to set my mind to them--in part--so that when we get to Z, i have some ideas already working and debugged."

she was incredibly exasperated with him, because he just couldn't figure why this was a problem.

he completely shattered the social expectation, and in part, he was actually right to do so. he did need the information ASAP, not on Z date, and he could utilize his time better that way.

it was only the social expectation of chain of command--which he doesn't really agree with as being valuable--that was the problem, not even that he knew the information OR had started working on that information.

you see, he does live and die by computer programming.

so, my husband who is understood to be a compassionate listener and good communicator (ie, come and mediate for us because we're freakin' out) was asked to come over to "explain" it to him.

instead, he explained to the manager and the manager's manager that the real problem was in how he needed to be approached to work effectively and feel secure in his job, and that, in this instance, their weird social rules were completely meaningless.

not because my hsuband is always pro our aspie friend, because sometimes he does explain certain social expectations again and again--or provide a "rule of thumb" statement for him--but other times, he's like "you're right dude, this is meaningless."

and so they adjust to him. now, when the manager's manager gets the info, he gets it. but even better, he's now at the planning meetings, sitting on the sidelines, taking notes. he then immediately begins working on programming 'sketches' on the various topics discussed.

so by the time they get to Z date about their programs, he has most of the ideas chased down, even if only half of the ideas are going to be implemented into programs.

win-win.
That's awesome! And kudos to your Dh for having the guts to stand up and say he did have a point, lol.

Mom to Joscelyne 14, Andrew 12, and Mackenzie 10 and wife to Nate.
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#126 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:47 AM
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well, my husband and i do a lot of "deconstruction" work in regards to culture to understand the inherent value of some sort of action or behavior, and we notice that it's largely arbitrary in a lot of cases, and in other cases, it's entirely context specific as to the usefulness of the behavior.

case in point--my husband's family serves cold cuts for christmas dinner. the original construct was that each of the four families (great aunt, grandfather paternal, grandmother materal, and the ILs themselves) had christmas parties where they served different meats--ham, turkey, roast, and lamb respectively. they had left overs, which we frozen and eaten on christmas day as the family meal.

eventually, those parties stopped, but they would buy cold cuts to 'recreate" that experience. and, every time we had said meal, it was always "well, 26 years now, we've been having cuts and rolls made into sandwiches for christmas!" in this bizarre, self-congratulatory way.

except, you come away feeling like you had a cheap meal as your "celebration" for a holiday. and it just wasn't satisfying.

so, we started to question it--we learned where it came from and that was great. it made perfect sense. what a great process! but now, it's just a cheap process, it's not necessary or useful, and it's just silly to continue it because we've been doing it for 28 years! or however long.

and so we introduced this new-fangled concept of having a nice meal at christmas. at first, it was like "the audacity! it's always been this way" but then, it occurred to everyone that 29 years ago, it totally wasn't that way, and 35 years ago, it wasn't either.

that what had become a tradition had sprung out of a specific need. now that the need wasn't there, the tradition was truly empty and meaningless. the process was silly.

so now, we have nice dinners on the holiday, and everyone is happy and "we've been doing this for three years now!" (congratulations! you can do things three times in a row--i truly don't get this. it's so funny to me. LOL).

i feel that our aspie friends do the same thing. one of my clients is autistic, and she's wild like this too. shatters your illusions every ten seconds.

brilliant!
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#127 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:58 AM
 
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First, zoebird, I agree with everything that you've said.
Second, I think neurodiversity is incredibly important. I have been unwillingly institutionalized and medicated. There is a big difference between someone choosing to take medication or seek a 'cure' and others making that choice for them.
I currently take medication, but at a level that I have chosen and feel comfortable with. Enough to be able to function as a spouse and parent, but not so much that I am muting me.
Do I wish that the world allowed me to exist without altering myself- yes! It's not how it is right now, though.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#128 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It started due to a video made by a guy name Christschool on YouTube called "Neurotypical Everyday"
I thought he only made the trailer for this video. Did he make the whole video? I'm confused.
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#129 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 02:29 AM
 
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This is a completely incorrect scenario and frankly, wishful thinking. How about this instead... there's a room full of autistic* people spinning in their own worlds, completely unable to make eye contact with, reach out to, or talk to each other much less the token NT in the room.

It's not like everyone who is autistic is 'speaking the same language' and reaching out to each other, like, say, foreigners from the same country.

(*Again, I'm talking about full-blown, diagnosable autism here)
Exactly... and if everyone were like that except you, if everything in society were geared for people like that and not like you, you would be the weird one for wanting to talk and interact.
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#130 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 03:01 AM
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though, for what it's worth, most autistics whom i know do want to talk and interact, but they interact differently. they basically talk the same, i mean, in the same language. their may be some differences in turns of phrase and what not, but in general, they talk the same, even though they interact differently.

that's just my understanding. they want human connection, but can't connect with those old computers as easily as they contect with those more like them.

it's interesting to observe. i try to keep up.
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#131 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 09:19 AM
 
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Actually, go read the way-back posts in the SN forum. You'll find many references to this joke. In fact, many had custom user titles to the same effect. (and why I put my "happy in my alternative reality" title up way back then) It started due to a video made by a guy name Christschool on YouTube called "Neurotypical Everyday" (A spoof on the "Autism Everyday" video put out by Autism Speaks). He has taken a break from video making though, so unfortunately, that particular video is not on YouTube ATM or I'd link it for you. (although we're all hoping he puts his videos back up). And then a spin off of the Wired Magazine article called "The Geek Syndrome" that highlights the high levels of Autism in Sylicone Valley and talks about how Autistics are breeding and thus spawning more Autistics and how they are drawn to computer sciences yada yada yada. So no, I didn't try to back peddle on something... you simply assumed I was offending and didn't know the back story. When I said there WAS a back story you are again assuming I'm making it up. So there you have it.

BTW, Wired Magazine had and AWESOME article about Amanda Baggs and others like her in the current March issue. I am totally bringing my copy around for family members to read.
So this is some sort of ONGOING joke about how "behind" neurotypical people are? And that makes it OK?? Why on EARTH would I want to read MORE insulting things about how me and my kind are slowing down the evolutionary process?

BTW, I'm not ASSUMING you are offending me. I'm TELLING you that you are. And you keep "lauging your ass off" about it.

Just like the OP and some folks in this thread are trying to explain how it's offensive to them to talk about autistism as a "disease" and "curing" autistics.

Some of us are trying to hear that message and understand, and change our language and be sensitive to what is being said.

I'm trying to explain why your (and, now apparantly a huge part of the special needs community's ) language and attitude is offensive.

I can understand why that sort of joke comes about, but just like you don't want to be called "broken" based on your neuro status, people don't want to be told that they can't keep up with the evolutionary process based on their's.
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#132 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not sure if she should've explained it in quite that way, or made the origins of the statement more clear before making it, but she has a point. Yes, saying stuff like that is offensive, but autistic people hear statements like this -- and things that are much worse -- every day. What she said was relatively benign compared to a lot of things I've read on the internet, heard on the news, and heard in the company of others in regards to autistic people. We're told that we're damaged by vaccines, or whatever latest thing people like to speculate that we're damaged by (it's ironic that she mentioned wi-fi, because I've read an article speculating that autism is caused by wi-fi). We're told that we're stupid or lesser people because we "can't socialize", "can't show affection", have "no empathy", and are generally made out to be lifeless beings. I've even heard someone who said that autistic people have no souls. There are so many ads and articles everywhere that say that something can "cure" autism. Lots of people say that they would never want to have an autistic child. Autism Speaks has regularly said that they want autism to be something that people read about in the history books. They've said many times that they don't want people like me, and the other autistic mamas and children here, to exist.

There are, unfortunately, autistic children who are abandoned by their parents and left to die, some even murdered by the parents to "put them out of their misery". A lot of these stories don't get media coverage, and when the parents (sorry, IF the parents are brought to trial), they get very light sentences or, with some cases, NO JAIL TIME OR EVEN A FINE because people pity them for having to "deal" with an autistic child.

I've talked to parents of special needs kids before and they'll tell me situations were relatives -- yes, these are grandparents, aunts, and uncles of children saying this -- ask, "How will the family name be carried on?" because they can't fathom an autistic person getting married and having children like everyone else. They say other things like, "Well, why don't you just do (such and such thing)? That'll straighten him out." People just don't get that you can't do one thing to prevent or "cure" autism. It's genetic. Once you have it, you have it. There's no prevention. It's not an STD or the flu. Heck, it's not even a disease, even though there are lots of people who say that it is. Just go on YouTube and find a video that a loving parent took of their autistic child and read some of the comments. They don't focus on the child, like when NT children's videos are put on YT. They don't say how cute he is, or anything like that; they argue about pathology and ask about what therapies or diets he's on. "He's so advanced for someone with autism," they'll say. Sometimes they question if the child really is autistic, as if the parent just wants to garner sympathy. Then there are some really disgusting people who actually seek out videos of autistic children and call them horrible names, like "retard" or say other disgusting things that I don't even want to think about.

Yes, what she said was offensive, but you only had to hear that offensive thing once. Autistic people have to hear it for their entire lives.
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#133 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 09:57 AM
 
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Yes, I get that.

But you are HERE asking that people be mindful of perpetuating those hurtful and offensive things.

Slinging them back at the people who you are trying to reach seems counterproductive *at best.*

Laughing about how insulted we are and making excuses for it? Come on. At least the folks in your examples can claim ignorance. You KNOW how hurtful it is.
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#134 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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At least the folks in your examples can claim ignorance.
I'm sorry, but no one can claim ignorance for abandoning, insulting, or killing a person, especially a child, no matter what their neurological status. Sure, some of the things I mentioned could be chocked up to ignorance, but a lot of them can't. There's no excuse for saying what a lot of people say about autism and people with autism. None. Not ignorance, not stupidity, nothing. I could see maybe back in the days where people were less PC, but now, there is absolutely no excuse. Quite a few of the people who say things like this are specialists. Do they have any excuse? Should they be ignorant about the feelings of the very people they're trying to help?

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Yes, I get that.
I'm really not trying to be offensive here. I'm trying to make you understand with this. But no, you absolutely will never get it unless you've lived it. That's why there are exercises in schools dealing with hate speech and living as a part of the minority; because no one truly understands what it's like unless they've lived it first hand. You will never understand what goes through the minds of these kids and parents unless you pick up a newspaper and read the story of an autistic child who was killed because his/her parents were sick of dealing with the tantrums and the quirks and realize that that story could have just as easily been about you. My parents repeatedly told me when I was little that they couldn't stand the things I did and I could see that it made them mad, but I couldn't really control the tantrums and stuff, because I didn't know why I did it. When I was at my worst, they've hit me and abused me, even after they learned that I have AS. They said that I would use it as an excuse to be bad. People who aren't autistic themselves or take care of someone who is autistic on a regular basis have no idea how hateful and terrible people can be toward autistic people.
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#135 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 10:08 AM
 
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Like birth? Better support Autism research that involves pre-natal testing so you can test for an Autistic child and abort it if it is. You certainly wouldn't want to expose your infant to life if they are going to be born Autistic. (because, you know that is what researchers are trying to do, even as absurd as it sounds.)

My DS was BORN with Autism. Not exposed to anything except life.
I don't disagree with you. I don't think my nephew was exposed to anything that caused his Aspergers. He was born with it.

What I was trying to say about exposing kids to things that might cause autism is that I vaxed my kids because I have looked long and hard at the literature and don't see any link between that and autism. But I do understand that other parents feel differently. I support their rights to not vax if they are worried about any possible connection.
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#136 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 10:17 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but no one can claim ignorance for abandoning, insulting, or killing a person, especially a child, no matter what their neurological status. Sure, some of the things I mentioned could be chocked up to ignorance, but a lot of them can't. There's no excuse for saying what a lot of people say about autism and people with autism. None. Not ignorance, not stupidity, nothing. I could see maybe back in the days where people were less PC, but now, there is absolutely no excuse. Quite a few of the people who say things like this are specialists. Do they have any excuse? Should they be ignorant about the feelings of the very people they're trying to help?
Listen, I hear you. I believe in tolerance and acceptance. I believe in listening when people tell you that your words/actions/attitudes are offensive. I don't believe that people should be abandoned or killed b/c they're autistic. I think specialists should be sensitive and open.

BUT, if you are asking me on one hand to understand your POV, and making inside jokes at my expense on the other hand, then you might want to rethink that tactic.

If you can't understand that........I don't know what else to say.
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#137 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 10:22 AM
 
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My son is on the autism spectrum. He doesn't want to be the way he is. He's expressed that many times. If there was a cure, he'd want it.
His father has Aspergers. He has told me that if there was a cure, then he'd want it.

I understand that some people would love a cure and some people wouldn't.

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#138 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 10:53 AM
 
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If I "cured him" he may fit into society's idea of how he should act, but how is that better? He wouldn't be HIM.
I feel exactly this way about my DS2 who was just diagnosed with Aspie's a couple of weeks ago. I felt mainly relief that we have finally labeled the elephant in the room so that we can get on with the business of getting him the services he needs to learn what he needs to learn instead of his constantly being sent to the office for behavior problems in the class.

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So this is some sort of ONGOING joke about how "behind" neurotypical people are? And that makes it OK?? Why on EARTH would I want to read MORE insulting things about how me and my kind are slowing down the evolutionary process?
I see this the same way that I see the situation of a white person who doesn't feel good when they read jokes about stupid things white people do. It hurts to be seen as a group and generalized, but I've been told time and again when you're part of the majority, you don't get to cry prejudice and discrimination.
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#139 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I see this the same way that I see the situation of a white person who doesn't feel good when they read jokes about stupid things white people do. It hurts to be seen as a group and generalized, but I've been told time and again when you're part of the majority, you don't get to cry prejudice and discrimination.
Thank you so much for saying this. What she said wasn't meant to be offensive. She wasn't saying it seriously. It was a very real demonstration of what autistic people go through every day. It's one thing to say why we don't want to be called these things, and it's another to be exposed to it and realize for yourself why we don't want to be called these things. I personally think the latter is much more effective. There are some things that need to be learned the hard way, and this is one of them.
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#140 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 11:30 AM
 
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I've been told time and again when you're part of the majority, you don't get to cry prejudice and discrimination.
I've been involved in a lot of discussions on racism and prejudice, and while I've seen it said (and agreed) that the majority cannot cry RACISM (which is more systemic, involving an entire history of oppression, discriminatory social policies, etc), people of all kinds can be prejudiced against people who are different from themselves.

I agree with monkey's mom that slinging insults or making jokes about neurotypicals is NOT productive to this discussion. This is a fairly progressive group, and I think you'd (general you) would get more support simply explaining the horrible things that had been done at your/your child's expense.

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#141 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 11:47 AM
 
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I've been involved in a lot of discussions on racism and prejudice, and while I've seen it said (and agreed) that the majority cannot cry RACISM (which is more systemic, involving an entire history of oppression, discriminatory social policies, etc), people of all kinds can be prejudiced against people who are different from themselves.

I agree with monkey's mom that slinging insults or making jokes about neurotypicals is NOT productive to this discussion. This is a fairly progressive group, and I think you'd (general you) would get more support simply explaining the horrible things that had been done at your/your child's expense.
Thank you.

Some of us ARE trying to understand. Obviously, I will never know what it is like 100%. But I am trying to hear what you are saying and trying to understand.

But insulting me to get me there? Ain't gonna work.
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#142 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 12:38 PM
 
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I thought he only made the trailer for this video. Did he make the whole video? I'm confused.
Sorry, the "trailer" was the whole video.. based on the Autism everyday Trailer on YouTube

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#143 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 12:47 PM
 
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So this is some sort of ONGOING joke about how "behind" neurotypical people are? And that makes it OK?? Why on EARTH would I want to read MORE insulting things about how me and my kind are slowing down the evolutionary process?

BTW, I'm not ASSUMING you are offending me. I'm TELLING you that you are. And you keep "lauging your ass off" about it.

Just like the OP and some folks in this thread are trying to explain how it's offensive to them to talk about autistism as a "disease" and "curing" autistics.

Some of us are trying to hear that message and understand, and change our language and be sensitive to what is being said.

I'm trying to explain why your (and, now apparantly a huge part of the special needs community's ) language and attitude is offensive.

I can understand why that sort of joke comes about, but just like you don't want to be called "broken" based on your neuro status, people don't want to be told that they can't keep up with the evolutionary process based on their's.
And, obviously, the point went right over your head.

I demonstrated to a T the attitude that Autistics receive EVERY SINGLE DAY from the neurotypical community. And you still preach about a "cure" or "recovering" from Autism like its a good thing, that shows how the concept/point I was making was completely lost on you. All you have to do is turn it around and my example is the same, only twisted for our enjoyment. Satire. Neurotypicals put out videos and literature about how awful Autism is and the people who have it are monsters and need to be fixed. But if an Autistic makes a joke about that and turns it around we're the bad ones? No, thats right, we're supposed to such it up and just accept it from the NTs because they are the majority. Heaven forbid we make a joke as a way to deal with all the negativity that is aimed at Autistics everyday.

And maybe Autistics just have a different sense of humor... gasp... which is funny in itself since Autistics are supposed to be incapable of love, attachment or humor according to the neurotypical society. The humor in THAT is priceless.

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#144 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:11 PM
 
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And you still preach about a "cure" or "recovering" from Autism like its a good thing, that shows how the concept/point I was making was completely lost on you.
I'm NOT preaching about a cure or recovering.

I'm TRYING to understand how marginalized you are feeling. I'm questioning and considering. I'm not preaching, I'm not insulting.

Making jokes at people's expense is a pretty crappy way to encourage them to keep listening and compel them to adopt more sensitive attitudes and language toward you.

Apparantly you don't care.

Good luck with your endeavor.
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#145 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:17 PM
 
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being able to answer those questions does not determine your right to live though
Whoa... where did that come from? My issue is with so called high-functioning autistics politically posturing for all autistics, specifically those who cannot communicate (even with assistance) for themselves.

Both high functioning autism and classic autism are diagnoses made via consensus science, i.e. it is subjective-- one expert's opinion could vary from the next. There is no genetic test for either and there is no way to prove that they are both part of a "spectrum of severity." You can't prove, at this point, that they AREN'T, either.

I have no problem with high-functioning autistics (who for the purposes of this concern, is anyone who can communicate meaningfully) politically posturing for themselves, but to assume the stance for all autistics, and against autism advocacy organizations, and against politicians, etc., is unethical in my eyes.

I know a man diagnosed with Asperger's who organized local meetings and considered himself an "autism activist." I asked him if he had even once spent time with profoundly impaired autistics, who cannot communicate even with assistance. He hadn't. So who exactly is he advocating for?
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#146 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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Whoa... where did that come from? My issue is with so called high-functioning autistics politically posturing for all autistics, specifically those who cannot communicate (even with assistance) for themselves.

Both high functioning autism and classic autism are diagnoses made via consensus science, i.e. it is subjective-- one expert's opinion could vary from the next. There is no genetic test for either and there is no way to prove that they are both part of a "spectrum of severity." You can't prove, at this point, that they AREN'T, either.
Do you know the difference is between HFA and Classic Autism? Because it doesn't sound like you do.
Just so you know, I have a son with Classic Autism. So, I think I do have a say (and falling on the Autistic spectrum myself) and the right to voice my opinion, even in reguards to Classic Autism.

BTW, I've made Autism videos, my DS told me "If you show this to people it would be a good thing" (in between his rocking and grunting he was doing) The video we were doing was about his reading, he was very proud of it, we were demonstrating how when he was allowed to rock he read BETTER than when forced to sit still. He's only 7 years old but is already an advocate for Autism awareness. He wants people to understand and accept him... and all his quirks and things NTs find irritating and in need of correcting. Fortunately he has a great support system, even at school, of people who except him and let him be him! When he didn't fit the NT plan, they changed the school setting for him. But most parents don't have such a great support team and thats what we are fighting for, vs "fixing" the kids to fit everyone else's plan.

Things we've dealt with because a NT didn't understand:

Misconception: We were told he didn't know his alphabet because he couldn't recite his ABCs. (and he wont sing, which is how most kids learned them)
Truth: They wanted him to recite like everyone else did and go down the list. When randomly pointed out he nailed them.

Misconception: He can't read.
Truth: He reads differently. We changed the reading program he was doing at school and he is flying through.

Misconception: He just isn't getting it.
Truth: He was so bored and frustrated that teachers wanted him to do things their way he refused to do it. Example: use counters for math problems... he could do them in his head and working out problems confuses him.

Misconception: Singing, he wont sing. It was thought that he didn't enjoy it and shouldn't participate.
Truth: It was too much for him to process and he simply CAN'T sing. Its too much input to do. But he enjoys being part of it.

If this was a bit more extreme you could carry this over to non-verbal Autistics. If speaking was too much to process his brain wouldn't let him do that either, BUT he has been able to so people automatically assume he is HF. Either way, it doesn't mean he doesn't understand, just like it people assume non-verbal Autistics don't understand or have low IQs. Autistics test differently and think differently, it doesn't mean they are any less smart. Infact, when tested correctly Autistics (yes, even non-verbal) did better on certain tests than NTs did. But in standardized testing they did bad. The point is... think different, test different, lets get society to start looking at Autistics as just different, not something less or in need of fixing.

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#147 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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I know that this is a very heated topic and an extremely important one. So I just want to remind everyone to be gentle with each other. Some of the posts have skated very close to UAV, and I really don't want to see this thread closed.

I have to admit to being on both sides of this a bit. I am not autistic, but I do have a son who is mildly on the spectrum. I want to help make things easier for him. We use diet, supplements, and are starting some social skills counciling because he's running into problems with friendships because of poor impulse control, and he's very social. He wants friends. And yet, my mother who loves him so much, often offers cures. She hears this here and that there and is convinced this is going "cure" him. I don't think that she understands that it comes off as her trying to cure "him", the person he is because part of who he is is those quirks, his seeing things a different way, he feels things in a different way. And as long as he's okay with it, so are we. The things that he wants help with, we'll help him with. I don't remember who said it, but they said we're probably medicating this generation of geniuses out of existence.

 
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#148 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 02:09 PM
 
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I know that this is a very heated topic and an extremely important one. So I just want to remind everyone to be gentle with each other. Some of the posts have skated very close to UAV, and I really don't want to see this thread closed.

I have to admit to being on both sides of this a bit. I am not autistic, but I do have a son who is mildly on the spectrum. I want to help make things easier for him. We use diet, supplements, and are starting some social skills counciling because he's running into problems with friendships because of poor impulse control, and he's very social. He wants friends. And yet, my mother who loves him so much, often offers cures. She hears this here and that there and is convinced this is going "cure" him. I don't think that she understands that it comes off as her trying to cure "him", the person he is because part of who he is is those quirks, his seeing things a different way, he feels things in a different way. And as long as he's okay with it, so are we. The things that he wants help with, we'll help him with. I don't remember who said it, but they said we're probably medicating this generation of geniuses out of existence.
I agree. I've had the same conversations with my own mother and its usually turned into "Well I'm glad I'm his mother and not you". Truth be told, my mom didn't try curing me as a child either, but she didn't know what she was dealing with either. It just wasn't diagnosed as much back then, especially if you could talk and "function". There are things they did that I wish they hadn't, like forcing eye contact etc. But I did recently point out what I dealt with and now my Ds is and how they just let me be me and how they didn't try to change my differences and it seemed to "click". The difference is the label that was given, and thats all people see now.

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#149 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 03:08 PM
 
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I'm NOT preaching about a cure or recovering.

I'm TRYING to understand how marginalized you are feeling. I'm questioning and considering. I'm not preaching, I'm not insulting.

Making jokes at people's expense is a pretty crappy way to encourage them to keep listening and compel them to adopt more sensitive attitudes and language toward you.

Apparantly you don't care.

Good luck with your endeavor.

In racism discussions I have encountered the term "righteous rage." As we all know, rage and anger are difficult emotions. They're often turned into humor. Ever watch some socially conscious black comics, uncensored? Laughter, but oh, my, so clear, the underlying anger at the experiences. And some of it, doggone uncomfortable or even distasteful to many whites. People turn their frustration and rage into a joke that others, particularly those with that shared experience, can share.

As a white person, I cannot fully understand the righteous rage of people of color. As a parent of a child with what I figure is extremely mild Asperger's, I can get a glimmer of what Kristine is talking about. Is it always appropriate to introduce such humor into a discussion? Maybe not. But I personally am inclined to give someone with the minority position a little more slack.

And Kristine's point about the differentness in humor perception is spot on. My son's sense of humor is really quite odd to me, sometimes, but it's definitely there. So I agree that's gotta be taken into account in any discussion like this as well; I mean, exactly why do we find things funny? And doesn't it make sense that a non-neurotypical person would have a different sense of humor?
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#150 of 276 Old 03-26-2008, 03:24 PM
 
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And Kristine's point about the differentness in humor perception is spot on. My son's sense of humor is really quite odd to me, sometimes, but it's definitely there. So I agree that's gotta be taken into account in any discussion like this as well; I mean, exactly why do we find things funny? And doesn't it make sense that a non-neurotypical person would have a different sense of humor?

Thank you.

My husband would probably fall more in the realms of Asperger's and he is very definitily a SPD individual.

Our humor is best understood by each other and one trait we loved about each other when we first met. Although part of the humor I love in Dh is his attempt at NT humor... but he has no off switch and goes on and on if it was funny once. Instead people think he is crude or insulting. He is left standing there going "Huh?", and then I explain the perplexed response to him and we both laugh at it. We know we're different and can laugh at the non-understanding of others because we know they just don't "get" us, we speak different languages. Its not that he or I *try* to offend, its just a different sense of humor.

I once explained Dh to himself in one line... of course it was computer related... He told a joke to me, I laughed. He then twisted and added onto it, I laughed. He went on more and it just wasn't funny anymore. Then he continued to "improve" the joke. I told him "Its Window's job to improve what wasn't broken and we all know how that turns out." He stopped and it clicked and he burst out laughing.


My DS can do humor like no other, and its the off the wall stupid stuff.
"Guess what?" "What?" "That's what!"
Not funny right? When your 7 year old catches you completely off guard its hysterical. But I'm guessing most wouldn't think so.

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