Circumcise Debate - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 60 Old 04-26-2011, 04:28 PM
 
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The reason I love this link so much is because it presents the anatomical and physiological facts of the foreskin. Many people including myself before I did the research think it is just "extra skin". No big deal its "extra",  to me when something is extra it is more than necessary and has no effect or is inconsequential. I was shocked when I learnt its purposes. I couldn't grasp how we as a culture are seemingly completely unaware of its various functions or purposes and I couldn't believe I once believed it was "extra". http://www.enotalone.com/article/3509.html

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#32 of 60 Old 04-26-2011, 05:00 PM
 
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The reason I love this link so much is because it presents the anatomical and physiological facts of the foreskin. Many people including myself before I did the research think it is just "extra skin". No big deal its "extra",  to me when something is extra it is more than necessary and has no effect or is inconsequential. I was shocked when I learnt its purposes. I couldn't grasp how we as a culture are seemingly completely unaware of its various functions or purposes and I couldn't believe I once believed it was "extra". http://www.enotalone.com/article/3509.html


Yep, its shocking how many people think the foreskin is just "taking the tip off". Nope, its fused on they have to literally rip it away before cutting. Poor little kids.
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#33 of 60 Old 04-26-2011, 11:33 PM
 
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I would say just let him watch a video of one being done.  That was enough for me and my DH.

 


I agree. Watch a video. At least read a thorough description of what is actually done in a circumcision. *Shudder*

 

FWIW, circumcision isn't done where I live at all unless you are Orthodox Jewish. There's just no real medical reason to do it.


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#34 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 05:27 AM
 
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@Jennyfah - Thanks for more info on those two links.  I liked that they seemed to show valid data but you never know if it's processed correctly.  I've learned to put disclaimers anytime there are statistics!!!  And for the HIV comment - I think the only potential health benefit is concerning male utis and how many males get these frequently.  Ironically, my future ex-husband has had a uti and he's circumcised. 

 

I think that the most annoying and pointless reason for doing circumcision is hygiene.  Do people really think cleaning a foreskin is any different than cleaning the folds of the labia?

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#35 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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Actually, there's been some research that shows that males who are intact have fewer UTI's over the course of their lives because the foreskin is protective, and helps to keep bacteria out of the urethra.  It makes sense, doesn't it?  

 

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/how-foreskin-protects-against-uti.html


And this:  (caution, shows a graphic photo of a normal circumcision)
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/cut-vs-intact-outcome-statistics.html

 

 And you're right; the hygiene 'reason' is sad.  What doctor recommends cutting a baby girl because she has a UTI?  

There is also a lot of misinformation about penis care out there, and a lot of it is perpetuated even today.  There's no need to do anything to a baby's penis!  I think that most of the men who had problems with their foreskin later in life were forcibly retracted as infants, which causes adhesions and other scarring, and pain.  People who were left alone are fine.  It's important to only clean what is seen, to never forcibly retract a child's foreskin, and to know that it's normal for a foreskin to not be fully retractable until puberty for some children.  Like the labia, a penis is a self-cleaning organ.  And when the boy is old enough, you just teach him to 'retract, rinse, replace' in the shower, just like you would teach your daughter to wipe from front to back when she uses the bathroom.  thumb.gif


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#36 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 05:41 AM
 
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A cop out to give your husband a say in what happens to a baby that is as much his as it is mine because it lived in my uterus? That's a new one! 



But in this case.. the husband is arguing for the irreparable harm of the child.. no harm should come to my child whom I carefully nurtured nine months in the womb and then gave natural childbirth to.


 

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#37 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 08:09 AM
 
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I have to share this:  On my FF ddc, there is this thread on circing on now.  I voted i would absolutely NEVER circ my son.  This one women, who circ'd her first, said the following:

"They actually said that he barely cried. From what i was told they gave him some sugar solution to suck on and apparently that makes them not feel the pain because their senses are focusing on the sugar solution? When he came back into the room (10 minutes later) he was sleeping. "

 

I wanted to ask her to lay down on a cold table after a traumatic experience, suck on a lollipop and we'll be quick about cutting off her clitoris.  wtf?  EVEN if I was going to circ my son, I'd never ever think it wouldn't hurt him!!!!  omg.


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#38 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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I have to share this:  On my FF ddc, there is this thread on circing on now.  I voted i would absolutely NEVER circ my son.  This one women, who circ'd her first, said the following:

"They actually said that he barely cried. From what i was told they gave him some sugar solution to suck on and apparently that makes them not feel the pain because their senses are focusing on the sugar solution? When he came back into the room (10 minutes later) he was sleeping. "

 

I wanted to ask her to lay down on a cold table after a traumatic experience, suck on a lollipop and we'll be quick about cutting off her clitoris.  wtf?  EVEN if I was going to circ my son, I'd never ever think it wouldn't hurt him!!!!  omg.



http://www.drmomma.org/2011/03/he-didnt-cry-babies-in-shock.

 

http://www.drmomma.org/search?q=sucrose+solution

 

The "sugar solution as pain control" myth has recently (and finally) been debunked.  It certainly is not suitable for shielding a baby from the searing pain of having his foreskin ripped back with a steel probe, crushed with a clamp, and cut away with scalpel.  Any woman would demand generous anesthesia for the crushing and cutting of her clitoral hood.  Can you imagine going through that with a bit of sugar water for pain control?  And not so much as a tylenol afterwards?

 

Doctors used to believe that preemies and newborns could not feel pain.  They would give them a paralyzing agent but no anesthesia for major surgeries.  Obviously we know better now for all newborn surgeries besides circumcision.  Why we as a society don't want to wake up to the fact that we are basically still doing that during circumcisions (paralyzing babies by strapping them down while performing very painful cosmetic surgery on their genitals, often with NO anesthesia at all!) is beyond my comprehension.  


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#39 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 09:12 PM
 
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Yep...don't worry, I've been told by someone I know that "most babies sleep right through it"... It's called a semi-conscious state of shock... There's no telling some people though. Conformity conformity conformity. irked.gif


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#40 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 09:13 PM
 
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OH and has anybody been told that your teen won't have any girls that want to give him oral? I have...and let me tell you, I was speechless!! 


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#41 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood View Post

OH and has anybody been told that your teen won't have any girls that want to give him oral? I have...and let me tell you, I was speechless!! 


Heh. I wouldn't have been speechless, but they certainly would've regretted it!

The uncut boys were my favorites to give to :P I'd cheerfully talk about in detail to any idiot who said that to me!

 


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#42 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 09:24 PM
 
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Heh. I wouldn't have been speechless, but they certainly would've regretted it!

The uncut boys were my favorites to give to :P I'd cheerfully talk about in detail to any idiot who said that to me!

 

It was just wrong on so many levels to me... 

 

A. I don't make choices for my children based on some future, fictional girl that might find my son's penis un...appetizing? (LOL)

B. My child's future sex life is nobody's business...

 

Seriously! 

 

I've never been with an uncut man and I will admit that most of my friends in high school, myself included thought it was gross and weird...We were typical American girls who haven't been exposed to a large number of natural penises (peni? lol..)...but people grow up, at least most of us. I had a lot of whack-a-doo beliefs back then! 
 

 


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#43 of 60 Old 04-27-2011, 09:49 PM
 
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DDCC just wanted to poke in and mention what i said repeatedly when my boy/girl twins were born recently when folks in and out of the hospital would ask if i was or had circd.

 

i always said plainly that no neither of my sweet babies were circumsised!

 

they would usually stop for a second and get a strange look on their face and then usually say something like, "but she's a girl, you don't circ a girl!"

then they would se my indignant smirk ridden face and most would get the point i had just made.

 

why is it a federal crime to do it to my daughter and a assumption that i would do it to my son????

 

 

thankfully i think my little wonderful babies got to open more than a few eyes in their short lives so far


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#44 of 60 Old 04-28-2011, 03:02 AM
 
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OH and has anybody been told that your teen won't have any girls that want to give him oral? I have...and let me tell you, I was speechless!! 


Wow! That's a new one. At the risk of TMI, I have to say that it took me quite a while to distinguish between cut and uncut because by the time you get down to business the ace is often out of the sleeve anyway... if that makes sense winky.gif

 


 

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DDCC just wanted to poke in and mention what i said repeatedly when my boy/girl twins were born recently when folks in and out of the hospital would ask if i was or had circd.

 

i always said plainly that no neither of my sweet babies were circumsised!

 

they would usually stop for a second and get a strange look on their face and then usually say something like, "but she's a girl, you don't circ a girl!"

then they would se my indignant smirk ridden face and most would get the point i had just made.

 

why is it a federal crime to do it to my daughter and a assumption that i would do it to my son????

 

 

thankfully i think my little wonderful babies got to open more than a few eyes in their short lives so far

 

Excellent!!
 

 


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#45 of 60 Old 04-28-2011, 05:29 AM
 
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 I was just thinking about that yesterday----how people would sit in shocked and horrified silence if I announced that I was getting my daughter's clitoral hood removed.  "You know, because it's cleaner, and it looks better, and she has to look like me or she'll be confused.  Oh, and this way people won't make fun of her or reject her when she's older.  And they barely cry when you do it.  Better to do it when they're little so they don't have to deal with it when they're older."  I guarantee people would would sit there with dropped jaws and wide eyes.  

Socialized atrocities like genital cutting for girls are common in other parts of the world (like clitorodectomy, excision, removal of clitoral hood, etc.), but *that* kind of genital cutting horrifies Americans.  They just don't think too deeply about it or know what routine infant circ in the U.S. really involves.    

 
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DDCC just wanted to poke in and mention what i said repeatedly when my boy/girl twins were born recently when folks in and out of the hospital would ask if i was or had circd.

 

i always said plainly that no neither of my sweet babies were circumsised!

 

they would usually stop for a second and get a strange look on their face and then usually say something like, "but she's a girl, you don't circ a girl!"

then they would se my indignant smirk ridden face and most would get the point i had just made.

 

why is it a federal crime to do it to my daughter and a assumption that i would do it to my son????

 

 

thankfully i think my little wonderful babies got to open more than a few eyes in their short lives so far



 


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#46 of 60 Old 04-28-2011, 05:00 PM
 
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Not to further DDC but I had to share!
 

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Wow! That's a new one. At the risk of TMI, I have to say that it took me quite a while to distinguish between cut and uncut because by the time you get down to business the ace is often out of the sleeve anyway... if that makes sense winky.gif

 


 

 

Excellent!!
 

 


 

I had no idea my husband was intact! To quote ursusarctos "the ace is out of the sleeve". Growing up I had seen baby intact penises, but I never realized that aroused penises wether intact or circed look the same aside from the scar of a circ. Generally when your looking at a penis its happy to see you smile.gif. I had always heard about the mythical "extra skin" so I assumed when aroused there would be extra. Turns out nope no "extra" it's fully used lol.  DH was my first so I had no idea that circed penises felt different and were very tight in comparison to there intact counterparts and I guess the whole scar thing totally escaped me. After my first few hours researching circumcision I called my sister all upset and she was like...well in DH's naked toddler pictures he is most certainly intact. joy.gif  

Now you would think DH could have just cleared it all up for me but his penis was the way it had always been. He didn't have a scar to ask his parents about and "hey son, just so you know we didn't cut your foreskin off" was never brought up. He played football from 5th grade through 12th grade along with basketball and track, never noticed a similarity or difference, and neither did anyone else.  

ROTFLMAO.gif

 

 

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#47 of 60 Old 04-29-2011, 11:25 PM
 
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Not to further DDC but I had to share!
 


 

I had no idea my husband was intact! To quote ursusarctos "the ace is out of the sleeve". Growing up I had seen baby intact penises, but I never realized that aroused penises wether intact or circed look the same aside from the scar of a circ. Generally when your looking at a penis its happy to see you smile.gif. I had always heard about the mythical "extra skin" so I assumed when aroused there would be extra. Turns out nope no "extra" it's fully used lol.  DH was my first so I had no idea that circed penises felt different and were very tight in comparison to there intact counterparts and I guess the whole scar thing totally escaped me. After my first few hours researching circumcision I called my sister all upset and she was like...well in DH's naked toddler pictures he is most certainly intact. joy.gif  

Now you would think DH could have just cleared it all up for me but his penis was the way it had always been. He didn't have a scar to ask his parents about and "hey son, just so you know we didn't cut your foreskin off" was never brought up. He played football from 5th grade through 12th grade along with basketball and track, never noticed a similarity or difference, and neither did anyone else.  

ROTFLMAO.gif

 

 


I'm confused...you never saw your dh's penis in an unaroused state? And he didn't know about circ'd vs. Natural? I hope this doesn't sound rude as i'm pecking away on my phone but I'm mystified by this!! Haha!

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#48 of 60 Old 05-17-2011, 08:54 PM
 
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Sorry for the long absence. My dog passed away shortly after I posted and I have not been on here.

I understand being mystified. My sister enjoys telling her friends the story and laughing hysterically. I still cant believe it myself. I had obviously seen it in all states of being. However, it looked nothing like I imagined an uncircumcised penis with "extra" skin would look like. I guess I was picturing an uncircumcised penis as having skin hanging over the end and it being something you would see and automatically know. I guess I was picturing something like a 10 *WARNING-Graphic link* http://www.newforeskin.biz/CI/CIchart.htm Depending on the coverage I can see it being obvious but DH coverage is not. Admittedly I had never seen an adult flaccid circumcised penis. Had I any experience with one I would have been able to tell. 

As far as DH I was mystified as well. How could you not know... but I read this post about the circumcised woman who had no idea and I think its the same. http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/2011/01/confessions-of-circumcised-woman.html .His penis was normal the way it had always been and he never had reason to think about it one way or the other. He proves the locker room argument invalid. In all 8 years of playing football, basketball and running track, he never noticed and no one else did either.

 

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#49 of 60 Old 05-17-2011, 09:26 PM
 
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im extremely sorry about your dog, hugs


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#50 of 60 Old 05-25-2011, 07:52 PM
 
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JulianneW, I read the 5 page article about the glorious foreskin. Wow, they sound so miraculously wonderful that I want one! Lol. But then I got to the end and saw it was written by Dr. fleiss, who is Jewish. I'd be surprised if he wasn't circumcised. Maybe he has foreskin envy?

We are Jewish too so my sons are circumcised, and while I think if there is no religious need to do so, it's perfectly fine to leave the boys intact, I still don't think that every male in my family is living some kind of miserable existence without a foreskin. The article makes it seem like the foreskin is the most wonderful part of the body ever.

I am sure that if I weren't Jewish I'd leave my sons uncut, but still, life without a foreskin is pretty good for males that happen to be that way.

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#51 of 60 Old 05-25-2011, 08:07 PM
 
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I have to share this:  On my FF ddc, there is this thread on circing on now.  I voted i would absolutely NEVER circ my son.  This one women, who circ'd her first, said the following:

"They actually said that he barely cried. From what i was told they gave him some sugar solution to suck on and apparently that makes them not feel the pain because their senses are focusing on the sugar solution? When he came back into the room (10 minutes later) he was sleeping. "

 

I wanted to ask her to lay down on a cold table after a traumatic experience, suck on a lollipop and we'll be quick about cutting off her clitoris.  wtf?  EVEN if I was going to circ my son, I'd never ever think it wouldn't hurt him!!!!  omg.


I agree that it must hurt terribly, but as much as I have hated the Mohel visits when my 3 sons turned 8 days old, it didn't seem as bad as we would think. My first son did not have any anesthetic except the wine and sugar cube, we were in Europe when he was born, and he cried, and cried again after his first pee. Not any more after that. And he HATED being bathed at that early age, before the circ as well. When I would undress him to bathe him, he would scream until he turned bright purple. He quite obviously hated being naked and bathed more than he hated the circ. That was some comfort to me.

My other two were able to have the Emla cream. They were born in the USA and their mohel was a pediatric urologist. So they had the numbing and that must have been somewhat better. They cried at the circa and t the first pee only, too. They seemed fine from then on. I know to nonJews this might be mutilation but when it's part of your culture it just isn't the worst thing in the world for these boys. I hope you understand. They really did not have lasting pain; I would be honest about it. Babies will show pain -- even tummy bubbles get more reaction from the baby than anything the next day after the circ. They really are not in some kind of shock for days or anything like it.

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#52 of 60 Old 05-25-2011, 08:43 PM
 
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I know to nonJews this might be mutilation but when it's part of your culture it just isn't the worst thing in the world for these boys.
Not just a part of our culture. It's a mitzvah. Our first mitzvah.


And moot to anyone not jewish. We're not the Christians. We don't think everyone has to do what we do. wink1.gif

“What is evil? Killing is evil, lying is evil, slandering is evil, abuse is evil, gossip is evil: envy is evil, hatred is evil, to cling to false doctrine is evil; all these things are evil. And what is the root of evil? Desire is the root of evil, illusion is the root of evil.”
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#53 of 60 Old 05-25-2011, 09:26 PM
 
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As far as I have understood, a Jewish circumcision is less brutal/"thorough" than a regular medical circumcision? Like less of the foreskin is removed or something? Is this actually true?


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#54 of 60 Old 05-26-2011, 06:44 AM
 
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Based upon my research, the method a Jewish mohel uses seems far less traumatic than a hospital circumcision.  I am usually against circ, but it is very important to my Jewish partner.  So I told him if it is that important to him, he needs to set it up with the rabbi.  I'm not having it done in the hospital or at a pediatrician's office.  If he doesn't take the initiative to set up the ceremony, I guess it won't happen.

 

A Jewish dad I know showed me a video of his son's bris, which made me feel a bit better about it.  The baby cried a bit when taken from his mom, but after that didn't cry at all.


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#55 of 60 Old 05-26-2011, 09:55 AM
 
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Based upon my research, the method a Jewish mohel uses seems far less traumatic than a hospital circumcision.  I am usually against circ, but it is very important to my Jewish partner.  So I told him if it is that important to him, he needs to set it up with the rabbi.  I'm not having it done in the hospital or at a pediatrician's office.  If he doesn't take the initiative to set up the ceremony, I guess it won't happen.

 

A Jewish dad I know showed me a video of his son's bris, which made me feel a bit better about it.  The baby cried a bit when taken from his mom, but after that didn't cry at all.

And one good thing about doing it The Jewish Way is that you have several days to bond first. He gets to settle into the world a bit. :)
 

 


Becky

Married to Dusty
Mama to Charlie - born August 15th.

Waiting on number two, due March 17!

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#56 of 60 Old 05-30-2011, 09:13 PM
 
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being proudly Jewish and overwhelmingly against circ, i sadly can not say anything that i'm feeling right now without violating the UA of Mothering.com. other than to say those things do not have to be in conflict with each other and everyone, jew and gentile alike can learn a lot by reading http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

 

on that note i will also suggest that this conversation is wandering in to areas that are best dealt with in the TCAC Section and a reading of the guidelines for that forum is always a good idea

 

 


partners.gif 2twins.gif  So what if I don't fit cleanly into a defined parenting style, my kids don't fit into a personality archetype either!

 
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#57 of 60 Old 05-30-2011, 09:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~Adorkable~ View Post

those things do not have to be in conflict with each other and everyone
There's jews who eat ham sammiches too. And get tattoos. And work on shabbos. But the fact that people do them doesn't mean those things aren't in conflict with mitzvah.

But the OP isn't jewish so I don't know what that link has to do with this. She can do whatever she chooses.
And I don't know why a discussion that's been respectful would have to be moved to a 1 sided forum. To-Fu is doing her job just fine.

“What is evil? Killing is evil, lying is evil, slandering is evil, abuse is evil, gossip is evil: envy is evil, hatred is evil, to cling to false doctrine is evil; all these things are evil. And what is the root of evil? Desire is the root of evil, illusion is the root of evil.”
- Buddha
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#58 of 60 Old 05-30-2011, 10:10 PM
 
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this is magical. this is just such a simple truth---- i love that your boy/girl twins were able to wisen up at least a few folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Adorkable~ View Post

DDCC just wanted to poke in and mention what i said repeatedly when my boy/girl twins were born recently when folks in and out of the hospital would ask if i was or had circd.

 

i always said plainly that no neither of my sweet babies were circumsised!

 

they would usually stop for a second and get a strange look on their face and then usually say something like, "but she's a girl, you don't circ a girl!"

then they would se my indignant smirk ridden face and most would get the point i had just made.

 

why is it a federal crime to do it to my daughter and a assumption that i would do it to my son????

 

 

thankfully i think my little wonderful babies got to open more than a few eyes in their short lives so far



 


hang.gif  single, scholar, childbirth advocate mama goodvibes.gif + two lively, rambunctious, beautiful, insightful and whoa-spirited dds, 4.5 and 8. fencing.gif + a sweet chunky boy born august 7, 2011!  + .....our sweet old lady dog, 10 years young. love.gif   = one full cup 

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#59 of 60 Old 05-30-2011, 10:23 PM
 
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     i appreciate you posting the link to jewsagainstcircumcision.org.  i think it's great to throw out traditions and customs that are tabboo, while holding fast to others that are sacred---i find this to be true individually, as well as in the case of (every) religion. we all have some growing to do, or else we would not be on earth this time, right now.

 

 

    Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Adorkable~ View Post

being proudly Jewish and overwhelmingly against circ, i sadly can not say anything that i'm feeling right now without violating the UA of Mothering.com. other than to say those things do not have to be in conflict with each other and everyone, jew and gentile alike can learn a lot by reading http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

 

on that note i will also suggest that this conversation is wandering in to areas that are best dealt with in the TCAC Section and a reading of the guidelines for that forum is always a good idea

 

 



 


hang.gif  single, scholar, childbirth advocate mama goodvibes.gif + two lively, rambunctious, beautiful, insightful and whoa-spirited dds, 4.5 and 8. fencing.gif + a sweet chunky boy born august 7, 2011!  + .....our sweet old lady dog, 10 years young. love.gif   = one full cup 

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#60 of 60 Old 05-31-2011, 10:36 PM
 
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Hi!  Since it seems the OP has gotten lots of valuable feedback and the discussion has run its course, I'm going to go ahead and lock the thread while things are on a positive note. 

 

If anyone would like to continue the conversation, feel free to take it over to The Case Against Circumcision. :)


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