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#61 of 105 Old 06-08-2011, 04:53 PM
 
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You're right, but this is also an unusual situation.  If you have have a normal, full term baby and are healthy, it should be easy enough to get sleep.
 

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Not when your first child is a severely colicky 31-weeker and you're suffering from PPD.  Unbelievable.

 



 


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#62 of 105 Old 06-08-2011, 07:29 PM
 
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The one thing I wish I had in my head when my last baby was born(and she was my fourth live baby) was that FORMULA WON'T CAUSE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. My formula fed baby was as healthy as a baby as my previous three babies, and is actually more healthy as a toddler than my previous three were. I could have saved myself a lot of self-flagellation.

 

Also, I got the least amount of sleep with my first live baby, who was healthy and full-term and breastfed exclusively, than with my other three babies(two of whom were full-term, healthy, and breastfed exclusively, and one of whom was full-term, healthy, and formula fed).  My first was just a really, really bad sleeper for his first two years.

 

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#63 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 05:51 AM
 
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The one thing I wish I had in my head when my last baby was born(and she was my fourth live baby) was that FORMULA WON'T CAUSE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. My formula fed baby was as healthy as a baby as my previous three babies, and is actually more healthy as a toddler than my previous three were. I could have saved myself a lot of self-flagellation.

 

Also, I got the least amount of sleep with my first live baby, who was healthy and full-term and breastfed exclusively, than with my other three babies(two of whom were full-term, healthy, and breastfed exclusively, and one of whom was full-term, healthy, and formula fed).  My first was just a really, really bad sleeper for his first two years.

 


That makes me feel a lot better to hear that I might actually get more sleep with the second.  My first has left me pretty sleep deprived for the past year, and he's just starting to get a lot better.  He even sleeps through the night sometimes now!  Of course, I was never able to fully transition him to the crib, but hopefully I can work on that before # 2 comes along.  I reaaaaallllly hope my next baby is a better sleeper.   If I could be blessed with a good sleeping newborn and a toddler who's starting to sleep through, I probably will get more sleep than I have with just one.  I can dream, can't I?

 

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#64 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 06:00 AM
 
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I WISH I would have known more about circumcision! Always look up medications that are prescribed before taking them or administering them to your children!

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#65 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 06:21 AM
 
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You can't be a perfect parent...and there are consequences to trying. I see it a lot of MDC (and did to myself for the first few months of first DS's life) - women saying "I'm breastfeeding my 2 yo, co-sleep, wear him all day, feed him only homemade organic baby food, keep all plastic out of the house and clean my entire house with vinegar...and I'm miserable. My DH and I don't ever have sex, I haven't slept more than 2 hours at a time in 2 years and I'm starting to resent my child."

 

That is not a place to be. There are many, many ways to be a great parent and doing everything "right" is not one of them. Go with the flow a little, take some shortcuts, allow yourself to relax and sleep and you will ENJOY your child..which is the most important thing.


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#66 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 06:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JavaJunkie View Post

The one thing I wish I had in my head when my last baby was born(and she was my fourth live baby) was that FORMULA WON'T CAUSE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. My formula fed baby was as healthy as a baby as my previous three babies, and is actually more healthy as a toddler than my previous three were. I could have saved myself a lot of self-flagellation.

 

 


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#67 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 06:37 AM
 
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....misquoting a study so dramatically is harmful and hurtful to many, many people who use formula for a variety of reasons. .....



yeahthat.gif

 

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#68 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 07:08 AM
 
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I breastfed both my babies until they were 2+ and 3, which in my circle is nutso.

 

That said, my first had supplemental feedings of formula in the beginning, because I couldn't figure out what I was doing, and he was crying because he was hungry. I felt so guilty, but I felt more guilty letting my newborn be hungry.

Anyway, it all worked out great, but if I could go back I wouldn't have one drop of guilt over those bottles. It did him/us zero harm.

 

The best advice I could give to a 1st time mom is:

 

1. be kind. to yourself, to your partner if you have one, to your baby. That covers a lot.

 

2. I know this sounds odd, but if you have unresolved issues, seek individual counseling/therapy. It's helped me be a better mother and partner. It will help with being able to fulfill advice #1...

 

 

 


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#69 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 08:50 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but using point data to prove an argument is no better than misquoting a study (that may or may not be true).  The data shows that in a large population, formula fed children have more healthy issues.  This is the data that I believe when it comes to using formula, not anecdotal evidence.  There will always be a subset of the group that turns out fine.  For your one story I can think of many FF adults that aren't fine or as healthy as they should be...

 

I already apologized for my mistake, I did misquote that study.  However, I will always feel that breastmilk should be the first option and that a breastmilk donor should be the second (I was a breastmilk donor for 9mo, so I know first hand about this).  Formula is a good tool for women who have NO other option.  The vast majority of women that I know that start supplementing with "a little formula" end up with exclusively FF babies.  While this is not true for everyone, it is a reality.

 

My original point here was that I don't think formula should be used to 'get more sleep' or to 'go out with friends' (those are frivolous reasons to me).  It's for feeding a baby when breasts truly don't work.  I don't think women who try their hardest should feel guilty.  I don't judge individual women who use formula because I don't know their situation.  All I ask is that every woman tries her hardest for her baby.  Unfortunately this is not the norm in our society. 

 

I am not against formula.  I am against the VAST misuse of formula.
 

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Originally Posted by JavaJunkie View Post

The one thing I wish I had in my head when my last baby was born(and she was my fourth live baby) was that FORMULA WON'T CAUSE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. My formula fed baby was as healthy as a baby as my previous three babies, and is actually more healthy as a toddler than my previous three were. I could have saved myself a lot of self-flagellation.

 

Also, I got the least amount of sleep with my first live baby, who was healthy and full-term and breastfed exclusively, than with my other three babies(two of whom were full-term, healthy, and breastfed exclusively, and one of whom was full-term, healthy, and formula fed).  My first was just a really, really bad sleeper for his first two years.

 



 

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#70 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 12:11 PM
 
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I'm sorry, but using point data to prove an argument is no better than misquoting a study (that may or may not be true).  The data shows that in a large population, formula fed children have more healthy issues.  This is the data that I believe when it comes to using formula, not anecdotal evidence.  There will always be a subset of the group that turns out fine.  For your one story I can think of many FF adults that aren't fine or as healthy as they should be...

 

I already apologized for my mistake, I did misquote that study.  However, I will always feel that breastmilk should be the first option and that a breastmilk donor should be the second (I was a breastmilk donor for 9mo, so I know first hand about this).  Formula is a good tool for women who have NO other option.  The vast majority of women that I know that start supplementing with "a little formula" end up with exclusively FF babies.  While this is not true for everyone, it is a reality.

 

My original point here was that I don't think formula should be used to 'get more sleep' or to 'go out with friends' (those are frivolous reasons to me).  It's for feeding a baby when breasts truly don't work.  I don't think women who try their hardest should feel guilty.  I don't judge individual women who use formula because I don't know their situation.  All I ask is that every woman tries her hardest for her baby.  Unfortunately this is not the norm in our society. 

 

I am not against formula.  I am against the VAST misuse of formula.
 



 


Your posts about this continue to be smug and condescending. You say "All I ask is that every woman tries her hardest for her baby." Do you really think the majority of women out there don't already do this?? Aside from neglectful and abusive moms, just about every mom out there tries the hardest and wants the most for her children. Have you stopped to wonder whether women who use formula to get more sleep ARE trying their hardest? You may think it's frivolous, but there are women who suffer tremendously from lack of sleep and their babies feed on demand every hour for months and months on end. Who are you to judge? Because that is what you are doing, whether you admit it or not. You say you were a milk donor for 9 months, which shows that you produced enough milk to feed your baby and someone else's at the same time. Do you know what that makes you? Lucky. Not better or a harder worker or someone who cares enough to try her hardest. Just lucky.

 

Your post reminds me of my sister in law who travels the world with her kids and finds it sad that other families don't try "harder" to expose their kids to different cultures. Of course, she is pretty much independently wealthy and only has to work part-time to support her world travels...something she seems to forget when she judges all those people who don't take their kids to Istanbul. Maybe the "vast misuse" of formula isn't all misuse...maybe it's a bunch of women who work hard for their babies and love them deeply but don't produce enough, find it painful and hard to juggle nursing along with their hundreds of other responsibilities, or the many, many other reasons women supplement with formula. 

 

And as you bash anecdotal evidence, you use it yourself in your post. "For your one story I can think of many FF adults that aren't fine or as healthy as they should be..." How do you know these adults are not healthy because they were formula fed?? That's a HUGE leap. 

 

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#71 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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REGARDING BREAST MILK vs FORUMLA:

 

If you are interested please read this really interesting article on an alternative for commercial formula:

 

http://westonaprice.org/action-alerts/134-2011-action-alerts/2214-baby-formula-video-by-sarah-pope

 

This is the nutritional organization that I most trust and they have a very sound scientific (without a political or commercial agenda) background to their principals.

 

This video and the text below has lots of information on how to make Homemade Baby Formula.

 

Hope this helps someone who may need to use formula but is struggling with it.


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​looking forward to when I can sleep more than a 2 or 3 hour stretch on a consistent basis!

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#72 of 105 Old 06-09-2011, 02:19 PM
 
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One word: Enjoy

 

 

This is going to be a time of your life you'll always remember. A time you will always talk to your child about and they'll want to know about. Sling or stroller, breast or bottle, crib or queen - what matters is what works and what enables you to enjoy this special time in all your lives. The choices that are agonizing now and might cause you mama guilt for a few years, will be water under the bridge 10 years from now and onward. The looks of bystanders when they see your sling or stroller will be forgotten, but you'll always remember how you felt taking your baby out. Make it feel good whenever you can. 

 

Okay another 4 words: never hurt your child. 

 

Some things are painful and can't be avoided. But no circumstance is worth any pain intentionally inflicted. 

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One word: Enjoy

 

 

This is going to be a time of your life you'll always remember. A time you will always talk to your child about and they'll want to know about. Sling or stroller, breast or bottle, crib or queen - what matters is what works and what enables you to enjoy this special time in all your lives. The choices that are agonizing now and might cause you mama guilt for a few years, will be water under the bridge 10 years from now and onward. The looks of bystanders when they see your sling or stroller will be forgotten, but you'll always remember how you felt taking your baby out. Make it feel good whenever you can. 

 

Okay another 4 words: never hurt your child. 

 

Some things are painful and can't be avoided. But no circumstance is worth any pain intentionally inflicted. 


I couldn't agree with this post more. Well said.

 


Mallory. Happily married to Joe since 6/25/05. Loving my adventure with my girls, Owyn Samantha, born 3/1/09. dust.gif and Greta June, born 11/2/11  babygirl.gif

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Children are forigiving and really resilient. If you make mistakes, you will not have ruined them. Dont be afraid to try something new in fear it will be a mistake and they will be ruined. Dont sweat the small stuff. Pick your battles wisley. Dont make any parenting value your hill to die on. If it is not working for you, let it go.

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#75 of 105 Old 06-12-2011, 08:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by berry987 View Post




Your posts about this continue to be smug and condescending. You say "All I ask is that every woman tries her hardest for her baby." Do you really think the majority of women out there don't already do this?? Aside from neglectful and abusive moms, just about every mom out there tries the hardest and wants the most for her children. Have you stopped to wonder whether women who use formula to get more sleep ARE trying their hardest? You may think it's frivolous, but there are women who suffer tremendously from lack of sleep and their babies feed on demand every hour for months and months on end. Who are you to judge? Because that is what you are doing, whether you admit it or not. You say you were a milk donor for 9 months, which shows that you produced enough milk to feed your baby and someone else's at the same time. Do you know what that makes you? Lucky. Not better or a harder worker or someone who cares enough to try her hardest. Just lucky.

 

Your post reminds me of my sister in law who travels the world with her kids and finds it sad that other families don't try "harder" to expose their kids to different cultures. Of course, she is pretty much independently wealthy and only has to work part-time to support her world travels...something she seems to forget when she judges all those people who don't take their kids to Istanbul. Maybe the "vast misuse" of formula isn't all misuse...maybe it's a bunch of women who work hard for their babies and love them deeply but don't produce enough, find it painful and hard to juggle nursing along with their hundreds of other responsibilities, or the many, many other reasons women supplement with formula. 

 

And as you bash anecdotal evidence, you use it yourself in your post. "For your one story I can think of many FF adults that aren't fine or as healthy as they should be..." How do you know these adults are not healthy because they were formula fed?? That's a HUGE leap. 

 



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#76 of 105 Old 06-12-2011, 08:38 PM
 
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Yes, I do know many women that don't try their hardest for their kids.  I meet them every day. 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by berry987 View Post




Your posts about this continue to be smug and condescending. You say "All I ask is that every woman tries her hardest for her baby." Do you really think the majority of women out there don't already do this?? Aside from neglectful and abusive moms, just about every mom out there tries the hardest and wants the most for her children. Have you stopped to wonder whether women who use formula to get more sleep ARE trying their hardest? You may think it's frivolous, but there are women who suffer tremendously from lack of sleep and their babies feed on demand every hour for months and months on end. Who are you to judge? Because that is what you are doing, whether you admit it or not. You say you were a milk donor for 9 months, which shows that you produced enough milk to feed your baby and someone else's at the same time. Do you know what that makes you? Lucky. Not better or a harder worker or someone who cares enough to try her hardest. Just lucky.

 

Your post reminds me of my sister in law who travels the world with her kids and finds it sad that other families don't try "harder" to expose their kids to different cultures. Of course, she is pretty much independently wealthy and only has to work part-time to support her world travels...something she seems to forget when she judges all those people who don't take their kids to Istanbul. Maybe the "vast misuse" of formula isn't all misuse...maybe it's a bunch of women who work hard for their babies and love them deeply but don't produce enough, find it painful and hard to juggle nursing along with their hundreds of other responsibilities, or the many, many other reasons women supplement with formula. 

 

And as you bash anecdotal evidence, you use it yourself in your post. "For your one story I can think of many FF adults that aren't fine or as healthy as they should be..." How do you know these adults are not healthy because they were formula fed?? That's a HUGE leap. 

 



 


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#77 of 105 Old 06-12-2011, 09:02 PM
 
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Yes, I do know many women that don't try their hardest for their kids.  I meet them every day. 



How can you possibly know what another woman's "hardest" is? 


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#78 of 105 Old 06-12-2011, 10:01 PM
 
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To me, many women are more inclined to do what's best for themselves, not what's best for their babies.  All of my examples below are women that I've met in the last 1-2mo alone.  These are the everyday people that I see.  I know there are many women that try their hardest (I have tons of these people as friends) and I know there are many women that don't.  I don't think that anyone has to be perfect, but I do think there should be a struggle to do what's right.  I went through a lot of hell to breastfeed my first child, I know what it's like to struggle.  I worked my butt off (as a single mother) to keep my child out of daycare, I've lived it.   The sad fact is that not all women do try their hardest for their babies.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I know a woman that didn't breastfeed because "she didn't like it".  That is what was best for her, not her baby.

 

I know a woman that went right back to work because "she needs to retire someday".  I'm pretty sure that is what's best for her, not her baby.

 

I know a woman that's pregnant with her second child (her first is only 4mo).  She got pregnant because her relationship is on the rocks and she doesn't want her boyfriend to leave her.  Again, NOT what's best for a child.

 

I know a woman that smoked through her entire pregnancy because "it's just too hard to quit"...  Need I say more?
 

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How can you possibly know what another woman's "hardest" is? 



 


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To me, many women are more inclined to do what's best for themselves, not what's best for their babies.  All of my examples below are women that I've met in the last 1-2mo alone.  These are the everyday people that I see.  I know there are many women that try their hardest (I have tons of these people as friends) and I know there are many women that don't.  I don't think that anyone has to be perfect, but I do think there should be a struggle to do what's right.  I went through a lot of hell to breastfeed my first child, I know what it's like to struggle.  I worked my butt off (as a single mother) to keep my child out of daycare, I've lived it.   The sad fact is that not all women do try their hardest for their babies.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I know a woman that didn't breastfeed because "she didn't like it".  That is what was best for her, not her baby.

 

I know a woman that went right back to work because "she needs to retire someday".  I'm pretty sure that is what's best for her, not her baby.

 

I know a woman that's pregnant with her second child (her first is only 4mo).  She got pregnant because her relationship is on the rocks and she doesn't want her boyfriend to leave her.  Again, NOT what's best for a child.

 

I know a woman that smoked through her entire pregnancy because "it's just too hard to quit"...  Need I say more?
 



 

I just don't think it's up to me what is best for someone else's child. I don't live their life...I'm not raising their child. The above things you listed aren't choices that *I* would make but I can't possibly say that the only right choice is the one I would make in any given situation. I really don't want to speak to every dangerous situation a parent could put their child in with their decisions as that is really broad but as far as breastfeeding because a woman "doesn't like it"...who are you or I or anybody to say that that's wrong? Is it a shame? Certainly. If she truly doesn't like it a person could argue that her baby will sense that and their bonding process could be seriously interrupted and even permanently damaged from the stress. shrug.gif Also, I'm going on the assumption that these are casual encounters you've had with these people and I will say that I had a horrible time nursing my first born, so much so that we would both cry at every feeding, we didn't bond for well over a month. Faced with a similar situation with the baby I'm currently carrying, I would quit in a heartbeat. I have three other children that need a sane mother and I may even tell casual acquaintances that I didn't like nursing, so I quit. I would just assume it was really none of their business to know all of the facts behind the decisions I make in my life. 
 

I'm really not trying to be argumentative though it's hard for me to convey that through text...what I'm really trying to say is that you are definitely coming off as harsh and judgmental and, well, the air can get thin up on a high horse...if it's high enough. winky.gif

 


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I suppose that I come at this from a different view point.  I too had a VERY hard time nursing my first child for the first 6 weeks.  I feel now, because I pushed through the worst times, that the years of breastfeeding made us so much closer.  Once the pain and frustration wore off, the benefit of the struggle was 110% worth it.  If I had given up, I would have felt extremely guilty for the rest of my life.  Not only that, but I think it would have negatively impacted my long-term bonding with him.   I think that doing the best thing for a child is worth one hell of a struggle.  If in the end, a women can not breastfeed, at least she would know that she tried.  I've also known women that STRUGGLED for a long time to bf and had to quit in the end.  There is a clear difference between this type of woman and my example below.

 

The woman in the example below simply doesn't like being a mother, there's hardly a relationship, period.  She spends her whole day meeting his basic needs and putting him back into a plastic carrier (his head is totally flat).  She was also counting the days until she returned to a job (that she didn't have to financially return to).  To me, this is no different than child abuse/neglect.  The exact same argument could also be used for someone that beats their child, it's all they know and they ARE trying (who is anyone to judge).  There isn't enough judgment in our society and children get hurt.  Most people will judge someone that physically beats a child, I guess my bar is just a little lower than the average American.  I think that feeding your kids junk food, voluntarily putting an infant in daycare, letting an infant cio, refusing to research, etc are all forms of child neglect.  I know what it's like to extend yourself past comfort for your own child, I don't see a lot women doing this.

 

There isn't a huge variable of "what's best for someone else's child".   ALL children have the same basic needs.  They all deserve healthy food, love, atonement, touch, and to be put first.  Unfortunately these things are not considered important in our society. 

 

I really wasn't trying to judge anyone here on Mothering.  The reason that I use this site is because I think that most people here are informed and do try their hardest for the kids.  The whole original point of my argument is that, "I would stay away from frivolous formula".   Mostly because I've known way too many women that start with one or two bottles and quickly abandon breastfeeding all together.  I do think that using formula to get sleep or to go out with friends is probably frivolous.  I can't help but think that.

Originally Posted by lovingmommyhood View Post


 

I just don't think it's up to me what is best for someone else's child. I don't live their life...I'm not raising their child. The above things you listed aren't choices that *I* would make but I can't possibly say that the only right choice is the one I would make in any given situation. I really don't want to speak to every dangerous situation a parent could put their child in with their decisions as that is really broad but as far as breastfeeding because a woman "doesn't like it"...who are you or I or anybody to say that that's wrong? Is it a shame? Certainly. If she truly doesn't like it a person could argue that her baby will sense that and their bonding process could be seriously interrupted and even permanently damaged from the stress. shrug.gif Also, I'm going on the assumption that these are casual encounters you've had with these people and I will say that I had a horrible time nursing my first born, so much so that we would both cry at every feeding, we didn't bond for well over a month. Faced with a similar situation with the baby I'm currently carrying, I would quit in a heartbeat. I have three other children that need a sane mother and I may even tell casual acquaintances that I didn't like nursing, so I quit. I would just assume it was really none of their business to know all of the facts behind the decisions I make in my life. 
 

I'm really not trying to be argumentative though it's hard for me to convey that through text...what I'm really trying to say is that you are definitely coming off as harsh and judgmental and, well, the air can get thin up on a high horse...if it's high enough. winky.gif

 



 


Abra, Married to George, Mother to DS 12/03 & DD1 08/09 & DD2 12/11.  We are planning our next adventure to South America in April 2014!
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#81 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 09:06 AM
 
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Sasha's Mama hit it right on the head!  Your wants are just as important.  With my frist DD I let everyone bully me around telling me I should do this and that.....only to find out that I should have listened to MY body and MY own instincts.  Remember that you will make mistakes along the way - - and it's totally normal. 

 

A few things I wish I would have done with my first that I didn't:

***Babywear!  It's such a wonderful thing to do - It's comfortable for both you and your baby.  I never go anywhere without my wrap.  So much that I've never needed to use a stroller with my second child.

***Nurse as long as possible - You will miss it when you stop and your baby will never stop benefiting from it.

***Hire a doula for the baby's birth. 

***If possible hire a midwife.  The difference in care is mind boggling.

 

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I just wanted to say this is all really good advice! I especially agree with not listening to everyone else's shoulds! Your mother thinks you should give your 3 month old cereal so he'll sleep, your husband thinks you should have the baby at X place even though he isn't researching other options, your pediatrician says your baby should be sleeping in the crib or he'll "never get out of your bed" and on and on and on! Ugh! Just do what feels right to you - you're the baby's mom and what you want is just as legitimate as what anyone else wants!



 


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There isn't enough judgment in our society and children get hurt.  


 


Actually, I see this quite the opposite. There is far too much judgement in our society - especially among the educated, "thoughtful" bunch who view their choices as the ONLY way to raise a child. As I said before, aside from abuse or neglect, there are many ways to raise a child well. Breastfed, bottlefed, SAH or WOH, carried or pushed in a stroller, etc. You are apparently taking it upon yourself to judge everyone out there who you don't see being judged enough. Maybe the woman you know who said she quit breastfeeding because she didn't like it knows you were judging her and just didn't want to get into it. I wouldn't want to engage with you in a conversation about MY choices because you obviously have narrow views of what makes a good choice.

 

Struggling with breastfeeding for six weeks pales in comparison to what many women go through to breastfeed. A close friend of mine had mastitis over and over again for the first six months of DS3s life, dealt with serious low supply, and was working full time as a PA in the ER which required 12 hr shifts at a time (to support her family, in case you're planning to judge her). She'd pump in patient rooms with almost no privacy and then come home on her days off and he would turbo nurse to get her supply back up (and she has two other small children). She quit BFing after 8 months because it was too much. Did she work hard enough in your opinion or is it being "too much" not a good enough reason? I fed with a SFS for the first six months of my DS1s life (and four months for my next two children) all the while knowing I was producing absolutely no breastmilk (not to mention the domperidone and herbal remedies I took). But you know what? When someone asks me if I breastfed my first child I say "no" because he didn't actually get any breastmilk from me and he is a robust, healthy, bright six year old now. Early on I'd say "yes" because I thought people would judge me. But I got tired of people asking me that and then saying "Oh good" or "Well that must be why he's never sick!" Because the truth is, formula does the job too! So if you met me and asked about my breastfeeding history, I'd probably give you the short answer "they were formula fed" because I don't go into my personal history with people I don't know well and because I am proud of my healthy, strong formula fed kids. Would I trade my experience for being able to breastfeed? In a heartbeat. Not because I think my kids are going to suffer because they were FF, but because I missed out on an experience I would have liked to have. It sucked struggling through that and worrying I was ruining my kids and condemning them to a lifetime of allergies, obesity and limited attachments. Because that is exactly what some of the BFing community would like the world to think. But my kids are incredibly healthy and strong and smart (if I do say so myself redface.gif) and they are deeply bonded with my DH and me....and that is all because there is more than one way to raise a child well

 


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#83 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 11:16 AM
 
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I suppose that I come at this from a different view point.  I too had a VERY hard time nursing my first child for the first 6 weeks.  I feel now, because I pushed through the worst times, that the years of breastfeeding made us so much closer.  Once the pain and frustration wore off, the benefit of the struggle was 110% worth it.  If I had given up, I would have felt extremely guilty for the rest of my life.  Not only that, but I think it would have negatively impacted my long-term bonding with him.   I think that doing the best thing for a child is worth one hell of a struggle.  If in the end, a women can not breastfeed, at least she would know that she tried.  I've also known women that STRUGGLED for a long time to bf and had to quit in the end.  There is a clear difference between this type of woman and my example below.

 

The woman in the example below simply doesn't like being a mother, there's hardly a relationship, period.  She spends her whole day meeting his basic needs and putting him back into a plastic carrier (his head is totally flat).  She was also counting the days until she returned to a job (that she didn't have to financially return to).  To me, this is no different than child abuse/neglect.  The exact same argument could also be used for someone that beats their child, it's all they know and they ARE trying (who is anyone to judge).  There isn't enough judgment in our society and children get hurt.  Most people will judge someone that physically beats a child, I guess my bar is just a little lower than the average American.  I think that feeding your kids junk food, voluntarily putting an infant in daycare, letting an infant cio, refusing to research, etc are all forms of child neglect.  I know what it's like to extend yourself past comfort for your own child, I don't see a lot women doing this.

 

There isn't a huge variable of "what's best for someone else's child".   ALL children have the same basic needs.  They all deserve healthy food, love, atonement, touch, and to be put first.  Unfortunately these things are not considered important in our society. 

 

I really wasn't trying to judge anyone here on Mothering.  The reason that I use this site is because I think that most people here are informed and do try their hardest for the kids.  The whole original point of my argument is that, "I would stay away from frivolous formula".   Mostly because I've known way too many women that start with one or two bottles and quickly abandon breastfeeding all together.  I do think that using formula to get sleep or to go out with friends is probably frivolous.  I can't help but think that.



 

OK, I know that MDC is one of those sites where it seems like it's "ok" to judge people who make different choices than you, but that is actually one of the worst parts about this site.  I think it's great that people who AP, cosleep, don't vax, and breastfeed until age 6 have a place to go and discuss this without people telling them it's wrong.  I really do.  And I personally believe that a lot of those things are best for babies.  However, I don't believe that it is my place to judge people who have found a different path than I did.  

 

I also think it really sucks that if you come here because you want support for one or two parenting choices you have made, you are made to feel like crap because some of your other choices don't go completely along with the program.  I found this place because I was trying to learn more about circumcision and the other side of the vaccine issue.  I'm glad I found it because I also ended up with a baby who wouldn't sleep in a crib and I realized it was OK for me to let him sleep in my bed and that I didn't have to listen to him cry in order to get him to sleep (which is what people IRL told me).  However, if I had been able to get him to sleep well in his crib without cio, I DEFINITELY would have done it.  And if he didn't hate being strapped into his infant seat with a heated passion, I totally would have sat him in it while I cooked dinner instead of passing him back and forth between my husband and I while we took turns cooking over a hot stove.  

 

And before I found this site, I would have been super proud of myself for even BFing for 6 months.  I know my mom BF'd my sister, brother and I for about that long, and I always considered myself a breastfed baby.  But around here, that's not good enough.  If you don't go on and on and on for years and years, you are basically a monster and ruining your childrens' guts.  (BTW, for only being BF'd for 6-7 mos, I pretty much have a stomach of steel and no allergies so I guess I don't need to go and set up any therapist appointments just yet to talk about how abusive and neglectful my mom was for not BFing me until I was in elementary school until something actually comes up).

 

And BTW, I went to a wedding when my son was 6 weeks old.  It was for one of my bestest friends in the world and I wasn't missing it.  My parents watched my son and when they ran out of frozen BM, they gave him a bottle of formula and then put him down in a crib and I didn't feel guilty about it in the slightest.  It was that outing with my friends that probably saved me from having a complete mental breakdown.  

 

I have a friend who chose to formula feed because she didn't like it.  She said it was making her depressed.  I don't know how bad it was but she was becoming resentful of her child and just hated it.  So who am I to judge her?  She is much happier bottle feeding.  Maybe this woman you know has bad PPD?

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#84 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 11:48 AM
 
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Sorry to DDC crash but I have been watching this thread with increasing horror. My eldest is almost 6 and my youngest is 5 months, and for the record I breastfed my eldest until 3+ and am exclusively breastfeeding my youngest. I babywear and have co-slept and all that.

 

That said, there is no way you could pick the FF kids out of the lineup from the BF kids in my son's cohort of peers. There is no way to tell who co-sleeps, who used a stroller, who broke their back babywearing, etc. In some cases I know 'cause we've been friends since the early days - and those who made different choices from me still have AMAZING and HEALTHY kids.

 

And honestly, I am saddened by anyone who thinks they can tell and who is prepared to judge those parents. I suspect an astonishing case of observer bias.

 

What you can tell are the kids whose parents love them, are consistent and grounded, and whose homes are a source of security, love, peace, and care. And quite often the mothers who have been able to sustain that in their lives; who have good parenting partnerships with their spouses and who are engaged in a passionate, grounded life with attachment - yes attachment - to their communities that strengthen their children's lives and care are the ones who have recognized that their needs and wants count too.

 

When I delivered my second, I resolved that this time I would be a more relaxed, less fearful parent. I do not live in fear that every piece of plastic will cause cancer, that a mouthful of cheezies at someone else's home will produce lifetime gut issues, or that if it comes to it - which it hasn't by some determination, but more LUCK - formula is all going to be okay. 

 

My sister ended up formula feeding for complex reasons and I'll tell you - after observing how her child is so strongly attached to both mum AND dad; how she is absolutely secure that mum or dad, or in a pinch grandma and grandpa and even me, her aunt, can feed her and hold her, it's quite amazing. If I do have to go to formula, ever, I think it will be incredibly awesome to see how a baby can learn that so many people can be that source of nutrition and comfort. I have to admit I hate pumping enough that I didn't do it right this time and do that, as I'd intended before a rough delivery and a near-term baby who ended up sick (kidney defect), but I kind of regret it.

 

You have 18+ years with your child; enjoy them! I wish I had enjoyed my first a little more and not spent so much time obsessing. Of course if you're a first time mom, you probably will...go gentle on that too. I'm excited for you all!

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#85 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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Abraisme - I just want to add that I read the study you are quoting about formula negating the benefits of partial breastfeeding and there are HUGE holes in the study. One thing that many, many studies on FF don't account for are confounding factors (parental age and education, socioeconomic status, etc.) that can seriously sway the outcome. The authors of this study blatantly say they did not control for confounding factors...which pretty much makes the study pointless. The largest group of formula feeders are low-income, single mothers. They are also more likely to lack resources for healthy food, good medical care, etc. So, their children are more likely to grow up with health problems. It's not because they are formula fed, it's because they live in an environment (that includes FF) that does not support good health. To generalize the results of this study to all FF babies is reckless and a really poor use of medical research money.

 

You can't just read the conclusions of a study and believe it - researchers have their own agendas and often come up with conclusions that are wrong based on the study results. Just like the mainstream medical community is waging a war on homebirth using "out of hospital birth" statistics. That includes unplanned home births and unassisted births and births that occurred in a taxi on the way to the hospital. Not exactly comparable to a planned home birth attended by an experienced midwife. But the studies show that more babies die out of the hospital than in the hospital so the study conclusions say "home births are bad." Great headline grabber, but wrong.


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Originally Posted by Abraisme View Post

I suppose that I come at this from a different view point.  I too had a VERY hard time nursing my first child for the first 6 weeks.  I feel now, because I pushed through the worst times, that the years of breastfeeding made us so much closer.  Once the pain and frustration wore off, the benefit of the struggle was 110% worth it.  If I had given up, I would have felt extremely guilty for the rest of my life.  Not only that, but I think it would have negatively impacted my long-term bonding with him.   I think that doing the best thing for a child is worth one hell of a struggle.  If in the end, a women can not breastfeed, at least she would know that she tried.  I've also known women that STRUGGLED for a long time to bf and had to quit in the end.  There is a clear difference between this type of woman and my example below.

 

The woman in the example below simply doesn't like being a mother, there's hardly a relationship, period.  She spends her whole day meeting his basic needs and putting him back into a plastic carrier (his head is totally flat).  She was also counting the days until she returned to a job (that she didn't have to financially return to).  To me, this is no different than child abuse/neglect.  The exact same argument could also be used for someone that beats their child, it's all they know and they ARE trying (who is anyone to judge).  There isn't enough judgment in our society and children get hurt.  Most people will judge someone that physically beats a child, I guess my bar is just a little lower than the average American.  I think that feeding your kids junk food, voluntarily putting an infant in daycare, letting an infant cio, refusing to research, etc are all forms of child neglect.  I know what it's like to extend yourself past comfort for your own child, I don't see a lot women doing this.

 

There isn't a huge variable of "what's best for someone else's child".   ALL children have the same basic needs.  They all deserve healthy food, love, atonement, touch, and to be put first.  Unfortunately these things are not considered important in our society. 

 

I really wasn't trying to judge anyone here on Mothering.  The reason that I use this site is because I think that most people here are informed and do try their hardest for the kids.  The whole original point of my argument is that, "I would stay away from frivolous formula".   Mostly because I've known way too many women that start with one or two bottles and quickly abandon breastfeeding all together.  I do think that using formula to get sleep or to go out with friends is probably frivolous.  I can't help but think that.



 

 

(bolded mine) Formula may not be equal to breastmilk but make no mistake, it is a healthy food and will sustain a child through infancy.

 

It worked for you =/= It's right

 

So you're essentially implying that any choices aside from the ones you've made are child abuse? irked.gif
 

 


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#87 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 03:56 PM
 
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I find it fascinating that someone who "does not judge" would spend so much time online judging me.  I can accept that different people have different views on things.  I have never pointed my finger at anyone here online.  I gave my broad opinion and was attacked for it.  All I wanted was to do was help the OP avoid falling into a breastfeeding boobie-trap and end up making a choice she might regret.  The statistics show that there is A LOT of frivolous baby formula being used in our country.  It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

 

I'm going to step away from this conversation now, because it's really not productive in any way.  I hope we can all leave this with no hard feelings.  Best wishes.

 


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Originally Posted by berry987 View Post




Actually, I see this quite the opposite. There is far too much judgement in our society - especially among the educated, "thoughtful" bunch who view their choices as the ONLY way to raise a child. As I said before, aside from abuse or neglect, there are many ways to raise a child well. Breastfed, bottlefed, SAH or WOH, carried or pushed in a stroller, etc. You are apparently taking it upon yourself to judge everyone out there who you don't see being judged enough. Maybe the woman you know who said she quit breastfeeding because she didn't like it knows you were judging her and just didn't want to get into it. I wouldn't want to engage with you in a conversation about MY choices because you obviously have narrow views of what makes a good choice.

 

Struggling with breastfeeding for six weeks pales in comparison to what many women go through to breastfeed. A close friend of mine had mastitis over and over again for the first six months of DS3s life, dealt with serious low supply, and was working full time as a PA in the ER which required 12 hr shifts at a time (to support her family, in case you're planning to judge her). She'd pump in patient rooms with almost no privacy and then come home on her days off and he would turbo nurse to get her supply back up (and she has two other small children). I fed with a SFS for the first six months of my DS1s life (and four months for my next two children) all the while knowing I was producing absolutely no breastmilk (not to mention the domperidone and herbal remedies I took). But you know what? When someone asks me if I breastfed my first child I say "no" because he didn't actually get any breastmilk from me and he is a robust, healthy, bright six year old now. Early on I'd say "yes" because I thought people would judge me. But I got tired of people asking me that and then saying "Oh good" or "Well that must be why he's never sick!" Because the truth is, formula does the job too! So if you met me and asked about my breastfeeding history, I'd probably give you the short answer "they were formula fed" because I don't go into my personal history with people I don't know well and because I am proud of my healthy, strong formula fed kids. Would I trade my experience for being able to breastfeed? In a heartbeat. But I know enough not to go around judging other people for how they feed/raise/etc. their children.

 



 


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#88 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 05:03 PM
 
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Abraisme - Who is judging you? Contradicting you is not judging you. If you post on online forums aggressively denouncing certain people and their choices you have to be prepared to take some heat. 


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#89 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 06:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraisme View Post I think that feeding your kids junk food, voluntarily putting an infant in daycare, letting an infant cio, refusing to research, etc are all forms of child neglect.  I know what it's like to extend yourself past comfort for your own child, I don't see a lot women doing this.

 



 



DDCC

 

Do WHAT now?  You've got to be freakin' kidding me.  Daycare is a form of neglect?  What's your definition of voluntary?   I work full time.  Could I quit my job and pull her out of day care?  Sure.  But we'd have to sell our house, which would probably use up all of our savings, and probably still barely get by. I'd rather be sane, financially comfortable, and be able to eventually start building savings for our future, which includes HER future. But around here a lot of people seem to have the "unless you're living in a shack you aren't trying hard enough" mentality to WOH and daycare.  So who are you to even get to judge what is voluntary and what isn't?  How *DARE* you even suggest that I am in any way neglecting my loved, fed, snuggled, daughter because she is in daycare?  Daycare that she also loves. 

 

Oh yeah.  And I totally gave her a bite of a fudgecicle the other day.  You know what?  She liked it.  And I didn't feel bad about it at all.

 

And I'm sure you'll come back and say that this isn't what you meant, etc.  But it doesn't matter.  *You* don't get to judge what is voluntary and what is not.  You're not my conscience.

 

There are other things I'd say, but even with the sudden loosening of the moderation reigns I'm still fairly certain they'd get me banned.


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#90 of 105 Old 06-13-2011, 07:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Abraisme View Post I think that feeding your kids junk food, voluntarily putting an infant in daycare, letting an infant cio, refusing to research, etc are all forms of child neglect.  I know what it's like to extend yourself past comfort for your own child, I don't see a lot women doing this

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree. The vast majority of parents I've met do the best they can with what they have. My kids do eat junk food more than I'd like, as do my husband and I. ESPECIALLY with the hyperemesis, where even eating the high calorie dense foods that tend to fall into the "whatever I can keep down" category I'm still losing weight. If I ate a diet that I would consider healthy right now,  I'd likely be even worse off, since I am having aversions to most fruits/veggies/greens and when I do try to eat them I vomit. As for the kids, they will gladly eat healthy food, but they do get snacks as well. We all do! A life without snack food is a life I don't want to live.

 

Daycare isn't neglect. As someone who has been a provider. I hated sending my kids to daycare over last Christmas, but I did. Including dd3, who was then 9 months. I HAD to get a part-time job, and even though friends and family kept them a lot, there were a few times we had to send them to daycare (and were able to do so for free since my mom works in the 5 year old room there). I could have not neglected the kids and stayed home with them 100% of the time, but I don't think my mortgage company would've taken my happy, healthy kids as payment on the house. And that would've kind of negated the point of me working to help provide a roof over their heads, now wouldn't it have?

 

I'm not a CIO advocate or fan, but I have had two dd's now that I HAD to let cry for a few minutes. They neither one were babies who nursed to sleep (this was at the 9+ month stage, where they like to assert their independence), and if they were overly tired they would cry for around five minutes before falling asleep. If I tried to lay with them during this time, especially if I tried laying with them in fact, it made things a LOT worse. They'd push me away, flail about in the bed screaming, etc. If I walked out, as much as it did kill me to do so, they were generally quiet and asleep by the time I walked down our tiny little hallway.

 

And comfort is subjective. It's impossible to know what a woman, or a man for that matter, is or isn't doing for their children regardless of what their choices outwardly appear to be. As someone who breastfed this last time through 4 months of milk blebs (which had me weekly digging dried milk out of my nipple with a needle until I was bleeding and pumping pink milk), food intolerances (couldn't use garlic to get rid of my sinus infections all winter and had to deal through them), multiple rounds of mastitis, and ongoing low supply issues because of everything else combined, I'd say I was past my comfort level. My other two nursed until they were 3. DD3 is weaning at 15 months. The breastfeeding journey I've been on with her has taught me more than the six years of nursing I had before her ever did. I will NEVER judge a woman who has tried and been unsuccessful at breastfeeding. I don't know her story. Maybe she is nursing, and the bottle is of pumped milk because she has to use an SNS with donor milk due to low supply and she isn't comfortable using it in public. Maybe she is on a medication that truly is incompatible with nursing (and I know very few are, but some of them are). Maybe she had to be separated from her baby due to a medical emergency after the birth and didn't get to get a good start at nursing. Maybe she was sexually abused and finds that as non-sexual as nursing is, it still brings on a trigger for her and she's unable to do so. Other situations (using disposable diapers, putting a baby in a crib and walking away when you're at the end of your rope, not babywearing, being a working mom, etc) are just as multi-faceted. Unless we've been privy to a mom's personal journey, judgement is completely inappropriate.

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