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#1 of 96 Old 06-07-2011, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would really like further education on why it is looked down on by some to have a boy circumcised and what sorts of risks are involved, just so if this baby is a boy, I can make a rational decision about it. Thanks in advance!

 

PS: I had my 4 year old son circumcised, and he did fine. If I choose not to circumcise another boy, I need to know how to detir any negativity between siblings if that situation comes about. Thanks!

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#2 of 96 Old 06-07-2011, 07:45 PM
 
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You should check out the circ board here on Mothering.  I'm pretty sure that all circ related conversations are supposed to happen there.  :)


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#3 of 96 Old 06-07-2011, 08:06 PM
 
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It makes me happy when someone wants to get informed about circumcision!  Good for you. 

 

My husband is circumcised.  He never really thought much about it until we were going to have a baby together (my 2nd), and I told him the true facts about it.  The foreskin has really important protective and sexual functions. His glans is calloused instead of smooth and supple like it should be, because it is no longer covered.  Erections pull his skin very tight.  He lost tens of thousands of nerve endings. We both lost the gliding action of the foreskin.  His mother was told it had to be done, or he'd get cancer, which of course is not true.  So he's not mad at her... she was uninformed back when he was born.  It wasn't easy to get the information back then.  But a lot was taken from him without his consent, and we both wish he had his foreskin.

 

And that is really the heart of it for both of us, now.  Our children have a right to their whole bodies.  We as their parents are their caretakers, and we don't have the right to alter their bodies for any kind of personal preference.  Though honestly, now having seen my sons the way they were meant to be, the circumcised penis looks... naked to me!  In a natural penis, the glans is covered unless the man is ready for sex- and yikes. I don't want to see my boys that way!

 

Here are a couple of sites to get you started: http://www.thewholenetwork.org/the-library.html 

 

This is Dr. Momma's blog site: http://www.drmomma.org/2010/02/dr-dean-edell-statement-on-circumcision.html#uds-search-results   For some reason I can't get the search function to work there, to come up with all of her posts about circumcision.  But there is tons of excellent information on there (on circ and other topics), so please poke around and read some more.

 

And of course, there is MDC's own Case Against Circumcision forum.  I would suggest going to the other sites and getting some research done, and then if you still have questions, go to CAC.  You probably don't want to go in as a complete newbie, as some people complain that the regular posters there are so passionate about the cause as to be harsh to the uninformed.  I don't think that is really true, so much as it can be hard for people who are just learning the truth to have this complete paradigm shift (what I thought was good is actually... bad?  how can this be???)

 

The advice  on siblings that's usually given in there is that you'd say something like "When you (ds1) were born, the doctors told us this was best for you.  By the time ds2 came along, we had more information and decided it wasn't necessary."  Personally if I had circumcised my son, I would give him information about restoring his foreskin, when he came of age.

 

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#4 of 96 Old 06-07-2011, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom View Post

 

It makes me happy when someone wants to get informed about circumcision!  Good for you. 

 

My husband is circumcised.  He never really thought much about it until we were going to have a baby together (my 2nd), and I told him the true facts about it.  The foreskin has really important protective and sexual functions. His glans is calloused instead of smooth and supple like it should be, because it is no longer covered.  Erections pull his skin very tight.  He lost tens of thousands of nerve endings. We both lost the gliding action of the foreskin.  His mother was told it had to be done, or he'd get cancer, which of course is not true.  So he's not mad at her... she was uninformed back when he was born.  It wasn't easy to get the information back then.  But a lot was taken from him without his consent, and we both wish he had his foreskin.

 

And that is really the heart of it for both of us, now.  Our children have a right to their whole bodies.  We as their parents are their caretakers, and we don't have the right to alter their bodies for any kind of personal preference.  Though honestly, now having seen my sons the way they were meant to be, the circumcised penis looks... naked to me!  In a natural penis, the glans is covered unless the man is ready for sex- and yikes. I don't want to see my boys that way!

 

Here are a couple of sites to get you started: http://www.thewholenetwork.org/the-library.html 

 

This is Dr. Momma's blog site: http://www.drmomma.org/2010/02/dr-dean-edell-statement-on-circumcision.html#uds-search-results   For some reason I can't get the search function to work there, to come up with all of her posts about circumcision.  But there is tons of excellent information on there (on circ and other topics), so please poke around and read some more.

 

And of course, there is MDC's own Case Against Circumcision forum.  I would suggest going to the other sites and getting some research done, and then if you still have questions, go to CAC.  You probably don't want to go in as a complete newbie, as some people complain that the regular posters there are so passionate about the cause as to be harsh to the uninformed.  I don't think that is really true, so much as it can be hard for people who are just learning the truth to have this complete paradigm shift (what I thought was good is actually... bad?  how can this be???)

 

The advice  on siblings that's usually given in there is that you'd say something like "When you (ds1) were born, the doctors told us this was best for you.  By the time ds2 came along, we had more information and decided it wasn't necessary."  Personally if I had circumcised my son, I would give him information about restoring his foreskin, when he came of age.

 



Thank you so much for this info! I will look into it extensively and decide from there. I really appreciate the input. thumb.gif

 

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#5 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 07:52 AM
 
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In a somewhat harsh way, this is how I finally convinced my DH against circumcision.  Before this he really didn't even want to get informed.

 

I made him sit down and watch THIS video.  I told him that if he can get through it and still thinks that circumcision is okay, then we'd talk.  He made it about 20 seconds into the video and BEGGED me to turn it off.  He said that it hurt his soul.  This, coupled with a little more information he's completely against circ.  :)

 

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#6 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 09:55 AM
 
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Ugh... I have to get into this now. I was really hoping to avoid it as I have so far (girls!) Obviously, I am against circ, but I am so not in the mood to convince dp. He has the typical argument that our son will look weird and not look like him. I never get that argument... everyone makes it! Is there some secret penis showing men do with each other that I am unaware of?! Why is this even an issue?!

 

Lula's Mom, I went into the whole sexual function thing and dp thought I was being gross. He thought it was weird to be concerned with our son's future sex life. Guess that argument is out! lol

 

I know we will end up not circing in the end. I know  it sounds snotty, but I'm pretty good at getting my way. orngtongue.gif


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#7 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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TalkToMeNow, guys see each other in the locker room changing or in the shower. I was reading a study from 2007 last night about not circumcising, and I guess less than 10% of men are circumcised in the UK. So it's the norm in other countries. In America, 75% of men ARE circumcised. It seems like it's more of an American thing? Not sure. I am more leaning toward not circumcising now. :)

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#8 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:11 AM
 
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There is also some information on Code Name Mama's blog (who I think comes on this forum as well, but I don't mind blowing her trumpet).  It is www.codenamemama.com.

 

This is an interesting discussion to read, because where I am from, in the UK, circumcision is restricted to certain cultures and it is not at all the "norm".  I read details of the "medical benefits" with some confusion because here it is just not an issue.  Uncircumcised men certainly do not experience any medical problems.  So I think my point is that it is essentially a cultural practice, and your decision is perhaps about whether to defy the "norm" or not.  One thing I'm really glad of is that I don't have to face this decision, and I hope you reach a conclusion that you feel content with.

 

PS Lula's Mom's description of a calloused penis is freaking me out.  I've never seen a real life circumcised penis, but it sounds unpleasant.

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#9 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:13 AM
 
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PS I just read your post IWannaBeAnRN and yes it's really uncommon in the UK!  Sorry, I posted at precisely the same moment as you!

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#10 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Munchymom, do you think the statistic I gave for the UK is accurate? I try to take online info with a grain of salt.

 

Edited after your 2nd post. lol Okay. I was wondering how accurate it was haha

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#11 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IwannaBanRN View Post
PS: I had my 4 year old son circumcised, and he did fine. If I choose not to circumcise another boy, I need to know how to detir any negativity between siblings if that situation comes about. Thanks!

It's way more than "doing fine" through the procedure, as I'm sure you know at this point.  I think it's great you came here to get more info instead of just following suit.  smile.gif  As others have said, check out the circ forum here for a ton of info.  I also used www.circumcision.org.  I like to come at it from the other direction... why do it?  The majority of the world sees no reason to do it... why do Americans think this is still a good idea?   What would be your reason or your dh's reason to do it?  Look at it from that angle when reading info and then see if your reasons make sense anymore.  It's okay to change your mind with subsequent sons- there is never a bad time to break the cycle.


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#12 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:39 AM
 
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DDDC

I just wanted to add that while, yes 75% of men in the United States are currently circed, that number is rapidly declining as this the current generation of child bearing women are becoming more educated about it. In 2009, on 32% of newborn boys were circed. So its likely that in your (possible) son's generation, a circed boy would be the minority in the locker room.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
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#13 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 10:51 AM
 
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That reminded me of the two Mothering Magazine articles about circing that you can now read online:

 

Cutting Kids

 

Protect Your Uncircumcised Son

 

There was also one about the AIDS myth, not sure if that one is available online or not.


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#14 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 12:34 PM
 
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Another risk (probably mentioned in the links given above by others) is that corrective surgery will be needed later because of meatal stenosis or other problems. It's a lot more common than you'd think because it's kind of a hush-hush thing to most people, but there's a significant chance of a circumcised boy needing a second surgery to fix problems caused by the circ.


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#15 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaBreadGirl View Post

Another risk (probably mentioned in the links given above by others) is that corrective surgery will be needed later because of meatal stenosis or other problems. It's a lot more common than you'd think because it's kind of a hush-hush thing to most people, but there's a significant chance of a circumcised boy needing a second surgery to fix problems caused by the circ.



My poor cousin had to be recut cuz when he was 4, he would get frequent erections(tmi, sorry) and it pulled on the part where it grew back. He was in SOOO much pain!

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#16 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 01:24 PM
 
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Quote:
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TalkToMeNow, guys see each other in the locker room changing or in the shower. I was reading a study from 2007 last night about not circumcising, and I guess less than 10% of men are circumcised in the UK. So it's the norm in other countries. In America, 75% of men ARE circumcised. It seems like it's more of an American thing? Not sure. I am more leaning toward not circumcising now. :)


I know they do, but still... It seems like an odd reason to me. I guess I'm just not a guy so I can't understand!! smile.gif

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#17 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

DDDC

I just wanted to add that while, yes 75% of men in the United States are currently circed, that number is rapidly declining as this the current generation of child bearing women are becoming more educated about it. In 2009, on 32% of newborn boys were circed. So its likely that in your (possible) son's generation, a circed boy would be the minority in the locker room.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/


This is good info, as the study I read was from the year after his birth. I wish I could get my older son's circ reversed before he went through high school.

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#18 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 02:16 PM
 
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Im not a person who has strong opinions either way- but I want to add my 2 cents that when I looked into circ on this website I found ALL of the info to be very one-sided. If your looking for a two sided view or statistics, this probably is not the place to be doing your research.


 
 
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#19 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 03:07 PM
 
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Im not a person who has strong opinions either way- but I want to add my 2 cents that when I looked into circ on this website I found ALL of the info to be very one-sided. If your looking for a two sided view or statistics, this probably is not the place to be doing your research.

[/quote














Agreed. This website is not pro genital mutilation, so you should look for information elsewhere if you are looking for thast point of view.

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#20 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 04:18 PM
 
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Comments like that make conversations like these arguments instead of conversations.  We are all grown ups who live in a world where we logically know people have differing points of view- being adult enough to get past those things is important in forming relationships and bonds with people we consider our support group- including people on this board.

 

I would never, ever want somebody to feel as though their opinion or feelings were not welcome here.  Our goal should be to be supportive to each other regardless of differing opinions- using crude terms and being rude wont make some people feel welcome.

 

I'm just stating what I noticed- this particular forum is biased one way, if you feel like you want to be educated on both points of view going elsewhere is a better option. 

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#21 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 04:40 PM
 
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Well, yeah the information on MDC is going to read as anti-circumcision only. Peggy O'Mara, the owner of MDC and former publisher of the magazine is against routine infant circumcision.  So it's written into the User Agreement that MDC does not host pro-circumcision discussions. I don't really see the circumcision debate as a matter of differing opinions.  But if we're being honest, shouldn't the owner of the penis have the only opinion that matters?  And he can make decisions about his body when he's an adult

 

And the thing is, when you get down and dig into the information and actual research that's out there, you start to see why MDC does not host pro-circumcision stuff... the arguments for circumcision and the myths of cleanliness, STDs, UTIs, and appearance that have surrounded it for so many years are being debunked left and right.  People are learning the facts not just here, but from sites that are popping up all over!  When I learned the latest stats that 2/3 of U.S. boys are being left intact now, I just celebrated.  The word is spreading, hooray!

 

IwannaBanRN- so happy you are leaning that way!  clap.gif

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#22 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 06:25 PM
 
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Ok, I just have to share, because I feel so silly

 

All this time I have been reading it on MDC  as InACTtivism...not inTACTivism...and I was like....what the heck are people talking about?  Inactivism? 

 

redface.gif

 

Wow....it literally took me years to get it lol.gif

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#23 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 06:39 PM
 
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I am not pro-circumcision and i would not choose to have a son circumcised, after watching it done hundreds of times (without complications in those cases, sure, but not appropriate/humane to do to an infant).  That being said, I think that if you are looking for both sides, the debate that you will hear, and that IS gaining ground among many pediatric and infectious disease folks, is that we are seeing more and more research that does show that circumcision reduces transmission of HPV and HIV.  That matters in the countries where HIV rates are sky high, like Africa where that research is coming from.  That probably doesn't matter in the US, and it certainly doesn't mean circumcision is an alternative to using condoms or something, but you don't know where your son will be decades from now and doing what with whom.  Mothering did have an article about this, but as I recall it was in line with the above statement.   I think the balance for this is to leave the decision up to the son.  

 

I think it is important to know the reasons (beyond just "his father wants him to like like him"-- crazy, since in my mind the biggest difference between and adult penis and a baby/toddler penis sure aint the foreskin) that people might present you with so you can feel solid in your decision.

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#24 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 07:04 PM
 
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Im truly sorry if I offended anyone. However, while I agree that the words "genital mutilation" are crude, that is exactly what it is.
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#25 of 96 Old 06-08-2011, 08:27 PM
 
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That being said, I think that if you are looking for both sides, the debate that you will hear, and that IS gaining ground among many pediatric and infectious disease folks, is that we are seeing more and more research that does show that circumcision reduces transmission of HPV and HIV.  That matters in the countries where HIV rates are sky high, like Africa where that research is coming from.  That probably doesn't matter in the US, and it certainly doesn't mean circumcision is an alternative to using condoms or something, but you don't know where your son will be decades from now and doing what with whom.  Mothering did have an article about this, but as I recall it was in line with the above statement.   I think the balance for this is to leave the decision up to the son.  

 

Yes to that! I wouldn't have wanted anyone to make the decision to cut my genitals because they felt I couldn't be trusted to make safe-sex decisions 20 years in the future. I've read that there was a study that showed victims of FGM were also less likely to contract HIV.  If it's good for boys, why not girls, right? headscratch.gif   shrug.gif

 

The HIV studies are nowhere near as slamdunk as the media likes to present them.  The physicians' group Doctors Opposing Circumcision made a statement about this:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/HIVStatement.html  Here is part of it:

 

Quote:

Opposing evidence. Both the public and the medical community must guard against being overwhelmed by the hyperbolic promotion of male circumcision and must receive these new studies with extreme caution. There is contradictory evidence that male circumcision is not as effective as proponents claim. One study found that male circumcision had no protective effect for women51 and another study found that male circumcision increased risk for women.52 Grosskurth found more HIV infection in circumcised men.53 Barongo et al. found no evidence that lack of circumcision is a risk factor for HIV infection.54 A study from India found little difference between circumcised and non-circumcised men in the conjugal relationship.55 A study carried out in South Africa found that male circumcision offered only a slight protective effect.56 A study carried out among American naval personnel found no difference in the incidence of HIV infection between non-circumcised and circumcised men.57 

The United States has huge numbers of circumcised adults, and also a horrible HIV infection track record.  It clearly is not protective here.  And for what it's worth, I got HPV (genital warts, yay!) at age 19 from a circumcised boyfriend.  HPV is pretty much epidemic, and it doesn't discriminate between intact or circumcised. 

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circumcision actually increases male to female HIV transmission. That particular finding was hushed up. MDC may be biased against RIC, and I don't think being biased source of information is a bad thing. When was the last time you saw an "unbiased" source that you thought provided quality information? And I'm not just talking about the circ debate. Something about trying to be unbiased leads to censoring of facts so as to not appear unbalanced. MDC is biased against RIC because the facts are biased against RIC. 

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#27 of 96 Old 06-09-2011, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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LilStar, I could care less about if MDC was against circ or not. When I first got here I was pro-circ, but all I cared about was learning about giving birth at home and getting the support that I need for it. MDC is pro-natural birth! MDC is pro-green mothers. I seriously would have thought twice if MDC were preaching Satanism, but Pro-circ is HARMLESS.(literally lol) And now that I know MORE, I am seriously thinking twice about "America's norm." Why is it the norm? Why, if it STARTED as a religious practice, is it not sacred anymore, but common practice? These are the questions I have always asked myself. Why isn't circumcision a sacred practice, like a baptism if it derived from the church?

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#28 of 96 Old 06-09-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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I'm glad I read this whole thread before responding, I think many of the things I was going to say have already been said smile.gif

IWannaBanRUN - I have a couple of friends who have circ'd their first son and not circ'd their second. I am happy to put you in touch via email, they would gladly help address your concerns about your sons being different.

I'm going to message you with several posts I've written about leaving boys intact. If anyone else is interested, message me!

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#29 of 96 Old 06-09-2011, 06:20 AM
 
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The history of circumcision in America is bizarre, IMO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Male_circumcision_to_prevent_masturbation 

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#30 of 96 Old 06-09-2011, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom View Post

The history of circumcision in America is bizarre, IMO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision#Male_circumcision_to_prevent_masturbation 



I haven't read the link yet, BUT I saw what the link SAID! lol IMO if a guy has something to hold onto, he's going to play with it and see if it feels good. lol Female masturbation in some countries is prevented by female circumcision. The people that practice this, also say it prevents their women from going outside of their marriage if sex does not feel good.

 

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