Did you get to make any decisions in the hospital? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-30-2011, 08:54 PM
 
karne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

The reason why it might be preferable for the agency rep. to talk with the birthmom first could be to see if SHE would like to have a conversation with the prospective adoptive parents.  This may or may not be something she wants to dialog about, and if she chooses not to, it might be easier for her to say this to someone with the agency.  Open communication is wonderful, but I think it's really valuable for birthparents to have space to explore their feelings, esp. about issues that might be tricky or loaded, in a way that is free from pressure.  A counselor might want to be available to talk about what the meaning of certain decisions might be for the birthmom, the real or symbolic importance...this isn't really something for the adoptive parent to explore.  

karne is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-30-2011, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

The SW who has been working with her and counseling her wants to approach her first about it and see if it is just something she said because she thinks that is what everyone does, or if she really does feel strongly about it.  She'll present it like, "If the adoptive parents didn't want to circumcise would that be OK with you?"  If she says no, then I may approach it more once I've established a bit more of a relationship with her.  We talked for the third time tonight and there wasn't really an opportunity to bring it up.  


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:49 AM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,549
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)

I don't get this at all.  I mean if a woman has decided to sign the papers and give up her child, and she knows that she is going to do that and hasn't changed her mind, why in the heck would she decide that she could do what she wanted in regards to circumcision in the time frame before the papers are signed?  I mean legally, I understand, but morally I don't.  For goodness sake, if she wanted to have her child circed, she could make that decision once she decided to actually keep the child.  Knowing that she has no intention to keep and raise the baby, but just to decide that she wants the child surgically altered for who knows what reason...because she CAN, because she can do what she wants before she signs away her rights?  How is that right at all?  I am totally not getting it.  
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post

But I still think that's unfair if the birth mother really wants circumcision for her child. It's unfair to lead her to believe that it will happen when the adoptive parents are actively trying to make sure it doesn't. I would hope that if the adoptive parents are really against circumcision, they would make that clear at the start. That way the expectant mother is able to choose a family that fits what she believes.

 

Viola is online now  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:09 AM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)

Because it's her child. She has the right (no matter how others feel about it) to make that decision for him, no matter whether she decides to parent him or not. She may feel strongly about her decision or she may want her child to be like most people she has known. But, that's her choice. If she really disagrees with the OP's values regarding circumcision (which may or may not be the case,) she can choose another adoptive family for her child.

 

OP, thanks for explaining who would be having the conversation with the birth mother and why. That makes more sense than what I was envisioning.

Polliwog is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:12 AM
 
AllyRae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Yes, this, exactly (except the part about trying to keep her happy so that she continues with the adoption no matter what).  That, and it shouldn't cause a division at all...as an a-parent, you will accept your child as he is, with everything in his past that came with the adoption.  For me personally, I would just tell the agency not to intervene, since the birth mom has made her preferences clear.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCatLady View Post




 

I'm sorry to hear that news (happy about your dh though).  As a birth mom, I don't know that I agree with the agency here.  If this is going to be an open adoption, you and the birth mom should be able to communicate with each other...even when it's a little uncomfortable.  You have a life time ahead of having to deal with each other (and chances are the agency will be minimal, if any, help after the adoption is complete).  I just think it would be better for you and the birth mom to get practice communicating and working through things together now.  Verses letting the agency mediate everything and try and keep her as happy as possible so that she continues on with the placement no matter what.  That attitude actually kind of gives me an icky vibe about the agency.

 

Of course, if the plan is not an open adoption, then what I'm saying is irrelevant here.  Again, best of luck to you guys.  I hope for the baby's sake that something changes her mind or that she ends up just not caring much either way in the end.



 


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
AllyRae is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:15 AM
 
AllyRae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Because it's her child.  Because in adoption, sometimes both sides cling to something, anything, they can do for that child.  In this case, this is something she wants to give her child.  Maybe she thinks her child won't fit in because he's adopted, and then add in this other layer of "weirdness" (in her possible view, not mine).  Maybe, she wants to be able to just make a couple decisions knowing that after those decisions, she might never see the child she conceived, carried, and birth, and that realization might be really hard for her.  Maybe she has cultural reasons.  Since that is her child until the moment of relinguishment, she needs no other reason other than the fact that she is the mom.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post

I don't get this at all.  I mean if a woman has decided to sign the papers and give up her child, and she knows that she is going to do that and hasn't changed her mind, why in the heck would she decide that she could do what she wanted in regards to circumcision in the time frame before the papers are signed?  I mean legally, I understand, but morally I don't.  For goodness sake, if she wanted to have her child circed, she could make that decision once she decided to actually keep the child.  Knowing that she has no intention to keep and raise the baby, but just to decide that she wants the child surgically altered for who knows what reason...because she CAN, because she can do what she wants before she signs away her rights?  How is that right at all?  I am totally not getting it.  
Quote:



 


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
AllyRae is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:17 AM
 
AllyRae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


I like the agency's approach here.  At least you will know how important that is to her.  If she said that it would not be ok with her, then I'd probably leave it at that, since that is obviously something she would feel strongly about giving to her child.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

The SW who has been working with her and counseling her wants to approach her first about it and see if it is just something she said because she thinks that is what everyone does, or if she really does feel strongly about it.  She'll present it like, "If the adoptive parents didn't want to circumcise would that be OK with you?"  If she says no, then I may approach it more once I've established a bit more of a relationship with her.  We talked for the third time tonight and there wasn't really an opportunity to bring it up.  



 


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
AllyRae is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

If it is something she does just because everyone she knows does it, then I may approach it a bit more with her.  I run with a pretty crunchy crowd where the majority of boys are in tact.  So, a lot of the boys he will grow up with will be in tact.


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:26 AM
 
karne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post

I don't get this at all.  I mean if a woman has decided to sign the papers and give up her child, and she knows that she is going to do that and hasn't changed her mind, why in the heck would she decide that she could do what she wanted in regards to circumcision in the time frame before the papers are signed?  I mean legally, I understand, but morally I don't.  For goodness sake, if she wanted to have her child circed, she could make that decision once she decided to actually keep the child.  Knowing that she has no intention to keep and raise the baby, but just to decide that she wants the child surgically altered for who knows what reason...because she CAN, because she can do what she wants before she signs away her rights?  How is that right at all?  I am totally not getting it.  
Quote:

 

I think this is a pretty jaded view of how a woman might feel about her child.  We are far from the days where the idea was that if a child was placed for adoption the mother essentially shouldn't care about issues that in fact might be very important to her, and should just hand over her child and all decision making responsibility.

 

The fact is that the decision to place for adoption often needs to be re-visited, or re-confirmed after the birth of the baby because up until then the baby and the experience of being a mother can be felt quite differently, almost theoretically-although that's not really the word I'm looking for.  Adoption is not an event.  It is a process, and yes, it's really tough to go through these pieces.  But they are very, very important to work through.
 

 

karne is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I agree with you Karne.  It is a tough thing to balance (I am realizing already).  This is off the topic of circumcision, but we discussed our name choice with her as well.  This child will forever be her son as well as ours (if things continue as planned).  I don't want this baby to have a name that she hates.  Unfortunately, the name she really likes is a name that I really don't care for, so we are working on a compromise.  My DH is hoping that she sleeps on our name choice and comes to love it.  Here's hoping. ;)


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:45 AM
 
CrunchyChristianMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 2,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post



 

I think this is a pretty jaded view of how a woman might feel about her child.  We are far from the days where the idea was that if a child was placed for adoption the mother essentially shouldn't care about issues that in fact might be very important to her, and should just hand over her child and all decision making responsibility.

 

The fact is that the decision to place for adoption often needs to be re-visited, or re-confirmed after the birth of the baby because up until then the baby and the experience of being a mother can be felt quite differently, almost theoretically-although that's not really the word I'm looking for.  Adoption is not an event.  It is a process, and yes, it's really tough to go through these pieces.  But they are very, very important to work through.
 

 



Well put.  I was debating how to respond to that.  It's simply not as cut and dry as "expectant mom is going to place and therefore she doesn't care what decisions are made for the child".


Elizabeth - Doing life with Scott partners.gif

SAHM to Evelyn - my crazy little Celiac (4) energy.gif Annabelle (2)  love.gif and Abraham (born 6/20) buddamomimg1.png
adoptionheart-1.gif  Follow our journey  mdcblog5.gif

CrunchyChristianMama is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 09:21 AM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)


If she didn't and you still wanted to involve her, would you consider letting her choose the baby's middle name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

I agree with you Karne.  It is a tough thing to balance (I am realizing already).  This is off the topic of circumcision, but we discussed our name choice with her as well.  This child will forever be her son as well as ours (if things continue as planned).  I don't want this baby to have a name that she hates.  Unfortunately, the name she really likes is a name that I really don't care for, so we are working on a compromise.  My DH is hoping that she sleeps on our name choice and comes to love it.  Here's hoping. ;)



 

Polliwog is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 09:31 AM
 
karne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

I agree with you Karne.  It is a tough thing to balance (I am realizing already).  This is off the topic of circumcision, but we discussed our name choice with her as well.  This child will forever be her son as well as ours (if things continue as planned).  I don't want this baby to have a name that she hates.  Unfortunately, the name she really likes is a name that I really don't care for, so we are working on a compromise.  My DH is hoping that she sleeps on our name choice and comes to love it.  Here's hoping. ;)



I don't think it's OT at all.  It sounds like it's all a part of a delicate process.  You sound very compassionate and respectful.  I want to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound off; I think that how you  go about the process can be as important as the decisions that are being made-which is not to minimize your wishes at all. I mean that you sound like you are engaging respectfully, and in a way that isn't putting up barriers.  This is such a tough place to be.

karne is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post





I don't think it's OT at all.  It sounds like it's all a part of a delicate process.  You sound very compassionate and respectful.  I want to phrase this in a way that doesn't sound off; I think that how you  go about the process can be as important as the decisions that are being made-which is not to minimize your wishes at all. I mean that you sound like you are engaging respectfully, and in a way that isn't putting up barriers.  This is such a tough place to be.


Thank you.  I went into this process wanting an open adoption and to form a relationship with a woman (and her family) for a lifetime.  While I don't think she will be involved in every parenting decision we make or anything, I do want her to know where we are coming from.

 

Polliwog- She already agreed that she likes our middle name choice a lot and she loves that it is a family name.  It is a tradition in her family as well to use family names for middle names.  I thought that was cool.  So, the first name will either end up being our 1st choice name (which my husband really really wants) or our second choice name (which is practically a combination of our favorite name and her favorite name).  Honestly, the 2nd choice almost seems like the best fit because of that.  We'll see how it goes.  I suggested an alternate spelling for our 1st choice and she seemed to like it a lot.

 


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:14 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,549
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post



 

I think this is a pretty jaded view of how a woman might feel about her child.  We are far from the days where the idea was that if a child was placed for adoption the mother essentially shouldn't care about issues that in fact might be very important to her, and should just hand over her child and all decision making responsibility.

 


If she is giving the child up for adoption, legally that is what she is doing, she is making the other people the parents of the child, she is giving them the right to make decisions for her child for the rest of his childhood years, presumably because she trusts them to do so.  Intention is a huge thing in this case that cannot be ignored.  If she has a different legal arrangement where she still retains some of her legal rights and abilities to make decisions for the child, then that would change my response, obviously.  The people who are going to adopt and raise the child should have more say about an unnecessary, damaging, surgical alteration to their child.  This will be something the child has to live with for the rest of his life.  This will not be something the birth mother ends up having to deal with, or to be legally responsible for if things go badly.  If the birth mother fully intends on relinquishing her rights to her child and to give him to someone else to be their child, her feelings about circumcision should not predominate.  Yes, I realize if she keeps the baby, she can have him circumcised, and I have issues with that, but I understand those are her legal rights.  The baby is a human being, not a thing she can just act upon because these are her feelings.  I find it unconscionable that a woman would go against the wishes of the adoptive parents and make a life changing decision on an elective surgery that isn't even done to the majority of baby boys born in the US.  Just because she thinks it should be done and has the legal power for those few days?  That's morally repugnant to me.

 

If she were asked to have the baby circumcised and she was morally opposed, she could refuse the surgery as unnecessary, but as soon as she relinquished her rights, she would not be able to stop the parents from having the baby circumcised. It doesn't work the other way, there is no good moral reason to have a routine infant circumcision. It's not even the cultural norm any longer. There maybe very strong reasons to have a child circumcised in accordance with religious beliefs, or for medical reasons, but we aren't talking about those here.  If she thinks it should be done for religious reasons, she would have to pick parents who were going to be in accordance with her religious views and want to raise the child in that religion too for this even to be a valid argument.  She can't control any of that after the fact.  

 

I have to bow out of this conversation because I find it truly upsetting.  I realize it is just a completely differing viewpoint thing, but this "It's HER child, she can do what she wants because circumcision is legal" thing disgusts me. I'm just too close-minded to really see it as anything more than that.  I'm truly sorry if I'm offending anyone, but I can't see it as any other way than a person wanting to exert her will on a baby for no good reason, other than the mere fact that she can.  If she chose parents who are in favor of circumcision, then I would feel differently.  

 

FWIW, I thought this thread was going to be about a woman's right to make decisions for herself in a birthing situation.  I didn't even realize that it was in the Adoption forum at first. I think a woman should have the absolute right over her own body, and should be able to make all the decisions about giving birth.  I think adoption practices can be exploitative of the biological mothers.  But if she fully intends to turn over her precious child to these parents who will become that baby's parents, she should not have the right to decide that her baby should be surgically altered until she decides that she is going to be the child's parent.  It is just that black and white to me.  I'm normally pretty open-minded and not given to absolutism, but occasionally I do see things as moral absolutes, and this one of those times.  I realize that it works the other way for most of you, who see the birth mother's rights as sacrosanct as long as she retains them, but again, I say intention matters.

 

Of course, I think talking to the birth mother during pregnancy is the way to go, and I wouldn't walk away from a baby just because he was circumcised, because he's a human being, not a moral debate.  But it's just as jaded to say that because the birth parents aren't the legal parents yet, they shouldn't care about the child and have any say in his wellbeing until those papers are signed as it is to say that a woman shouldn't care about her child because she's giving him up.  However, I'm not saying that either.  

Viola is online now  
Old 07-01-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,549
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)

OK, so I've been evaluating this more, exactly what's upsetting me about all of this to maybe better understand the other viewpoint.  What really got to me was when, as I interpreted it, Smithie suggested telling the doctor that you as the adoptive parents were not on board with the decision so that the doctor might delay doing it.  It was said that this was really disrespectful of the birth mother's wishes, and that of course her wishes are is important here--not the child's, of course, because why should you let him grow up and decide whether or not to have a foreskin.  It's her child, so of course she's going to care about what his penis looks like, regardless of whether she ever sees him again.  If she wants to forever alter him in this way, she should get to do so.  That is something I just can't agree with.  I think all the parents in the situation should be in agreement before the doctor should do an elective, cosmetic surgical procedure.  From a medical ethics standpoint, I can't see doing it any other way. If the mother says, "Yes, I want him circed" and it is something she feels so strongly about, she will make sure that it is done. She might make the adoption contingent on circumcision, which I think is just as wrong as parents backing out of an adoption because a baby is circumcised.  It might even end up with her changing her decision to place the baby at all.  But it is a decision that everyone involved should have some input on.  

 

Now my bias is that I think that it is really something that only the owner of the penis should ever get to decide, but legally adults can do this to babies.  I think the idea that the adoptive parents shouldn't care because it's not their child YET is just as problematic as the other view.  But at least in the other view, you are erring on the side of the natural state, and erring on the side of the people who will be his parents, who will raise him, who will have a lot more influence and responsibility for the child than the one who birthed him.

 

 

Viola is online now  
Old 07-01-2011, 04:09 PM
 
swd12422's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

No one is saying that the adoptive parents shouldn't care. What they are saying is that the adoptive parents have no right to make decisions about the baby's care (whether it's circ or breastfeeding or emergency medical care) until the birth mom signs her paper work and relinquishes her parental rights. Until that happens, the e-mom/birth mom IS the parent and can do as she sees fit.

 

Of course most of us here are hoping she will not choose to circ, and maybe most of us cringe that it is even a choice to begin with. But this isn't a moral debate of what we want or what should be. It is what it is, and the discussion is within the realm of THIS situation. Of course it would be easier if circs weren't done as soon as the baby is born or shortly thereafter. Of course it would be better if they weren't done on babies at all "just because." Of course it would be better if every mother who gave birth could care for and raise her baby herself, in her own way. Of course if would be better if every woman who wanted to give birth could do so. But it doesn't always work that way.

swd12422 is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:40 PM
 
smeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I don't understand the need to jump all over me. Circumcision CAN affect bonding; I have seen it. Does it happen often? No, not at all! But it CAN and if it's worth "playing it up" to make sure a child keeps his right to choose, then so be it. No need to get defensive.

 

And the note on lying to your life partner... for some people it's the better route. Say they'll address it later when they didn't intend to if that's what it took. Why? Because there is a chance that after a few weeks the thought of cutting up his baby starts sounding a little absurd. 

 

You don't have to agree with me, but that's the beauty of it. You do what you do. I wouldn't lie to my partner, but I would also make it clear from the get-go that my child not be circumcised, period. Now, in the case of adoption, of course that would be dependent on whether biomom let me make that decision, most obviously. But it's worth it to let people know the options that are out there so they can best decide on their situation and relationship which of the numerous options is the best route.


- Emy . Single mom to DS nut.gif Ezra (15.12.05), angel2.gif Thames (reincarnated 18.04.08) and DD rainbow1284.gif babyf.gif Allora (11.02.11) and dog2.gif Hoppylactivist.gif  novaxnocirc.gif  waterbirth.jpg fambedsingle2.gif bfinfant.giffemalesling.GIFcd.gif

smeep is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 06:51 PM
 
smeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

That's a tough one. I kind of feel that the birth mother's input on the name is very important. Even if it gets changed, it seems like all too often the birth mother's name choice isn't even respected, it's just kind of "Oh, nice...well now you're ***! Yay!" Glad you're working on a compromise. :) 

 

My only issue with circ is I don't believe it's anyone's choice but the kid's. But pretty much everything else, IMO, should be her choice or at least discussed and agreed upon by both parties if possible. I've never given a baby up for adoption, but I can only imagine a fraction of what it's like. She may be giving him up, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love him, and I think people forget that.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post

I agree with you Karne.  It is a tough thing to balance (I am realizing already).  This is off the topic of circumcision, but we discussed our name choice with her as well.  This child will forever be her son as well as ours (if things continue as planned).  I don't want this baby to have a name that she hates.  Unfortunately, the name she really likes is a name that I really don't care for, so we are working on a compromise.  My DH is hoping that she sleeps on our name choice and comes to love it.  Here's hoping. ;)



 


- Emy . Single mom to DS nut.gif Ezra (15.12.05), angel2.gif Thames (reincarnated 18.04.08) and DD rainbow1284.gif babyf.gif Allora (11.02.11) and dog2.gif Hoppylactivist.gif  novaxnocirc.gif  waterbirth.jpg fambedsingle2.gif bfinfant.giffemalesling.GIFcd.gif

smeep is offline  
Old 07-01-2011, 09:35 PM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 22,549
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post

No one is saying that the adoptive parents shouldn't care. What they are saying is that the adoptive parents have no right to make decisions about the baby's care (whether it's circ or breastfeeding or emergency medical care) until the birth mom signs her paper work and relinquishes her parental rights. Until that happens, the e-mom/birth mom IS the parent and can do as she sees fit.


You know, I actually do see it this way, and I do agree with this.  And upon further consideration, I can see how a birth mother might just feel like a circumcision was medically necessary and that she was doing a service to this child she brought into the world, regardless of her decision to keep and raise the child or not.  So I thought I should probably come back to this thread and make that point clear, and offer an apology that I'm only seeing her decision to electively circumcise in a negative light.  But I'm still of the mind that it should be a consensus thing for something like circumcision, and there should be a discussion, not just a "Well, it's her baby, she can do what she wants" as I was reading in several comments.  Of course, that is true, it *is* her baby, she *can* do what she wants within the law, but that is what I find so disturbing on a personal level. I was surprised that it was just so cut and dried for most of you.  I wasn't interpreting Smithie's comment as an adoptive mother lying to the birth mother.  She can't legally make the decision, but if she makes her feelings known to the doctors involved, further discussion can ensue.  If the doctor is lying to the patient, that is a completely different issue and was not being discussed.

 

Obviously with emergency medical care, she would have to make the decision, unless she decided she didn't want to and relinquished custody. I don't have the same strong feeling about vaccination, because I can see more of a medical and care argument made for her wanting to do that, and she can't insist that it is done after the baby is adopted.  And with breastfeeding, there can be a relationship that lasts a few hours, a day, 3 days that will end once she is no longer the parent.

Viola is online now  
Old 07-02-2011, 09:19 AM
 
mama2evazoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Murfreesboro, tn
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Have read the article about female genital mutilation on mothering.com ?  Perhaps that would be helpful. I lucked out and the man that I had boys twins with was intact so I didn't have to convince him about the pro side of leaving the boys intact. on the other hand I've had to fight with him about breastfeeding past 3months. He's older and black and he's family was all amazed that I nursed my babies at all much less past 3months and twins no less. Now they are 18months and I just keep very quiet that they are still nursing.....

 

You could just adopt a girl and then it wouldn't be an issue. 

 

But the info on this site is very good for pro intact boys and girls. Perhaps reading about the function of the foreskin would help?

 

 

mama2evazoe is offline  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:46 AM
 
MilkbarMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a Teeny Little Town in Way Northern CA
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

As others have said, the baby belongs to the birthmother in the hospital.  But this is where really good communication come into place.  Sit down and talk with her as much as you can.  We made a birth plan with our sons birth mother.  She respected our wishes about circ, because she said it was up to us, since we would be caring for his "parts".  :)  When we talked about vaccination, we explained that we would like to delay, and not receive HepB at birth, and she was okay with that.  Again, it was all about communication.  We also agree that she would breastfeed the baby in the hospital, and she new my plans to nurse him as well.  We helped her through labor and delivery, I helped her to latch him on and get him nursing well.  It was a team effort, and we now have a great relationship :) 


Wife and SAHM to our two girls and one little man.
MilkbarMom is offline  
Old 07-03-2011, 01:44 PM
 
AllyRae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm pretty sure she's already matched.  And holy cow, a foreskin isn't a do or die issue...certainly not worth giving up a little boy one plans to adopt.  This is kind of sad that this even got mentioned as an option... :(
 

Quote:

 

You could just adopt a girl and then it wouldn't be an issue. 

 

 



 


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
AllyRae is offline  
Old 07-04-2011, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyRae View Post

I'm pretty sure she's already matched.  And holy cow, a foreskin isn't a do or die issue...certainly not worth giving up a little boy one plans to adopt.  This is kind of sad that this even got mentioned as an option... :(
 



 


Yes, I'm already matched and have no plans to lose this baby boy over foreskin.  I'm honestly sorry that I asked this here.  Live and learn.  

 

Ironically, the vaccine was not even an issue.  While I don't really like lying, our agency suggested just saying that we plan to delay the vaccine until we are home with our own pediatrician.  

 


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
Old 07-04-2011, 10:57 AM
 
CrazyCatLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Except...that it is lying if you really have no plans on vaccinating that baby later. :-/

 

I'm sorry the responses here haven't been exactly what you were looking for.  I still wish you all the best.  But some of things that your agency is saying/doing really makes me question their ethics here.  I would hate to see people get hurt in the end over issues that could have and should have been dealt with before a match was even made. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WifeMomChiro View Post




Yes, I'm already matched and have no plans to lose this baby boy over foreskin.  I'm honestly sorry that I asked this here.  Live and learn.  

 

Ironically, the vaccine was not even an issue.  While I don't really like lying, our agency suggested just saying that we plan to delay the vaccine until we are home with our own pediatrician.  

 



 


Melaya (29) - Mom to Z (9) and soon to be I (due Nov 2013) stork-boy.gif

Birth mom to M (7), O (5), & C (2). winner.jpgnovaxnoIRC.giftriadadopt.jpg

CrazyCatLady is offline  
Old 07-04-2011, 12:02 PM
 
excitedtobeamom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

WifeMomChiro-Don't let this discussion turn you away from this board.  We are a passionate group around here-wow!

 

I have to say I wouldn't lie about the vaccination if you have no intention of vaccination.  Our agency said to bring it up if we weren't planning on vaccinating but our match went so fast that it never was brought up.  We actually selectively vaccinate but the hospital was willing to work with us on the Hep. B since the birthparents said that it was up to us.  You don't ever want to lie and you will get caught in a lie if you have an open adoption.  How icky is it to lie to someone who is so vunerable.  I bet it won't matter to her at all that you don't want to vaccinate.  I agree that some of things your agency is saying is a little unethical.

 

Best of luck!  I can't wait to hear how your story unfolds.  We are so in love with our 3 month old who came by way of a local domestic adoption.


Homeschooling Momma to DD 8 years old, DS 7 years old, DS born 03/11 by adoptionheart-1.gif , waiting for DD born 07/10 and two furry labs. Wife to my wonderful husband of 12 years.
excitedtobeamom is offline  
Old 07-04-2011, 02:48 PM
 
BlueSkyDay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm anti-circ but let my husband make the decision about whether or not to circ our son, provided he did some reading and research.  I figured that there are a lot of decisions that I'll want to make as the mom of a daughter that my husband just won't be as in on.  One of his pro-circ arguments was that he thought his son should look like him, and "like the other guys in the locker room" but when he chatted with his own dad about whether or not to circumcize, his dad (baby's grandfather) told him that he himself was not circumsized.  That took a lot of the wind out of my husband's interest in circumcizing - that it had never mattered one bit that he and his own father were different.  My husband ended up deciding against circumcision prior to our son's birth.   In the 2 years since then we've seen the circ rate continue to drop (to 35-50%) and this has made my husband feel "vindicated" - he'd make the same no-circ choice again since the "locker room" argument doesn't hold any longer either.

 

As an aside, once my son was born he was in intensive care for 6 weeks due to an unexpected complication.  Seeing all of the medical intervention, tubes, ventilators, medications, etc that our newborn was (necessarily) subjected to, my husband said that even if he'd originally decided pro-circ he would have changed his mind.  He knew he couldn't have put that little baby through one more bit of trauma.

 

 

BlueSkyDay is offline  
Old 07-04-2011, 04:13 PM
 
oldhippiemom52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

 When my boys were born 25 and 21 years ago, circumcision was not being questioned.....or it might have been just the very beginning and no one really gave it a second thought.  It was just what you did.  If I were expecting now, I'm sure I would question it very carefully, if not totally forbid it.  But to reassure, my kids are both just fine.  No sexual problems or other issues pertaining  to it.  What I do think is almost worse, though, is the tradition of the faith I was born into which makes a religious ceremony of it when a baby boy is about 8 days old.  That is about the most barbaric thing I can imagine and never would have gone along with it.  One of many reasons why I practice spirituality instead of religion.

oldhippiemom52 is offline  
Old 07-05-2011, 03:12 AM
 
objet_trouve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 174
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not a suggestion, but this is how we came to our decision:

I guess my husband was pro-circ once, never came up...then I made him watch the Penn and Teller episode on it, and I think that's what lead to him becoming very anti-circ. Had he pushed for pro, I would have gone back on birth control and made him wear condoms for the rest of our marriage (or until he would change his mind). No husband of mine is going to put my kid through unnecessary surgery! If I can't trust him not to let random people cut my child up, how can I trust him to ever care for a child?

So after he saw the episode and he told me how mad it made him, I gave him a hug and told him I'm glad I don't have to go back on BC and can continue TTC. I think he was proud of me for that.

I think talking to your husband is going to depend entirely on why he wants it done. Cosmetic? Religion? Misinformation about hygiene or disease? Perhaps you could ask him about his background with the subject, ask about his feelings. Be sure the setting is very relaxed for that conversation, somewhere private, comfortable and safe. If he's circ'd himself, hearing about the neg affects might make him insecure about his body, his sex life, etc. If he's not circ'd, he could be haunted with memories of being bullied for it (which is not a reason to circ, since kids can be cruel, and can find something to make fun of in even the most average looking child, but those kinds of memories are hard to see past sometimes), or old fears that he wouldn't find a girl who liked him (which is BS of course, but you might not know from watching television).

Those are my thoughts anyway. He may require more gentleness than you'd think. There could be all kinds of trauma and fear in there keeping him away from making good decisions.

TTC #1 My chart: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/329153
 

objet_trouve is offline  
Old 07-10-2011, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
WifeMomChiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 189
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

You will be glad to know that he remained intact.  I pleaded my case and cried (real tears).  Bdad immediately said he no longer wanted to do it.  Bmom said she still thought circumcision was a good idea but she would leave it up to me.  She had already signed the consent for it to be done, but she told them not to do it because I didn't want it.


Wife to my DH for 10 wonderful years.joy.gif

Mom to L (5 yo DD) and J (infant DS)  adoptionheart-1.gif

Chiropractor to many.  novaxnocirc.gif

WifeMomChiro is offline  
 

Tags
Adoption
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off