Open to adopting this unborn to another mama/family...what is possible? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm going to be open about my circumstances and the variables I would bring to an adoption scenario and I would appreciate any feedback anyone here can offer me as to what might be possible or ideal for helping to connect me with the awaiting parent(s) who would feel most appreciative and aligned with the gifts and limitations I can offer!

 

1) This baby was conceived in semi-accidental uncensored love and passion between my husband and I, we are both very intelligent and spiritually rich individuals, musicians, writers and diligent parents, with some charismatic, dorky, artistic and sporty genes, fwiw.  My due date is March 11th.

 

2)  I have born four children  (four homebirths:  1 midwife-assisted- shoulder dystocia, 3 "unassisted"- uncomplicated, fast) only the last of which was fathered by my husband...our youngest will be a full genetic sibling of this being who is yet unborn. 

 

3)  My husband and I feel that we are already entirely abundant with family, that we have no personal or egoic incentive to grow the numbers of our family;  in fact, we would wish that that we could put more attention into our relationships with each of our children than we do.

 

4)  We are very poor (of money/income), we take foodstamps, medicaid, etc. and neither of us are on a career path which we can expect will change our financial picture significantly.  

 

5)  I don't know much about adoption legalities or options, but I have the sense that my situation begs for some form of "open adoption"

 

6)  I am very emotionally stable and feel that I can offer this child to another joyful mama without ever looking back in regret.

 

7)  I love supporting new mothers, and I am very good at it. 

 

8)  I would offer to be a very empowered birth mother.  That is, I would expect to be primarily in charge of decisions made around my pregnancy and birthing.  I would always want to know the preferences of the adoptive family, but I would never hold myself to the fears/priorities of another person on this matter unless they resonated with my own sense of truth.   

 

9)  I would offer to breastfeed your child for up to a year, as well as share my life with this mother/family to some degree (I have a lot of community experience!).  I could be a sort of non-judgmental mentor in parenting...that is, the kind of mentor that asks:  "what kind of experience do *you* want to have in parenting?"  and then I offer suggestions and feedbacks which might guide you toward your own goals.  Depending on what my own homescene looked like, I might be willing/able to pump and freeze milk, but I am currently expecting to be nomadic (www.pacingtheplanet.org) and unavailable to hospital grade pumps, freezers, or even electricity. 

 

10)  I'm pretty sure that I would wish that the child would have legally secured access of contact with Gavain and I, but feel some flexibility that that could perhaps begin in later years...maybe 13, for instance. 

 

11)  I can promise honesty.  I am the most straight-up honest person you could ever hope to meet.  I can tell you about my challenges and hardships as easily and clearly as I can elucidate to you my strengths and gifts.  I have a compulsive need to be understood which entirely surpasses the typical persons' need to be liked or accepted!  So all you ever have to do is ask, and I'll lay bare to you my reality, hopes, dreams, health concerns, fears, circumstances, whatever.  On the flip side, I do not know how to limit my conversations to socially acceptable norms or polite light discussions of weather.  This becomes uncomfortable for most people. 

 

12)  We are not desperate or even necessarily decided that adoption of this child will be our final choice.  We are open to welcoming and loving another little being and feel normal curiosity and anticipation of the magic that this one would bring to our lives;  if the "right fit" adoptive-family were not to play out,  we would accept it as "a sign" that we are meant to parent this one, also.

 

13)  My husband is more oriented toward this strategy of adopting the child into a new family than I am, though as I have said, I feel entirely open to it.  Another way to say that, if you ask me, is that I have more confidence that we can adequately provide for a fifth child than my husband does.  Which is ok.  I understand his perspective, and I think he understands mine also.  We are both excited about the possibilities which might await us, this child, and another parent/family, through adoption. 

 

There's a basic rundown...what do you think?

Love,


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#2 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 04:41 PM
 
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I think that this decision would have life long implications on the baby as well as your children that would not necessarily be positive.  I'm not saying that these possibilities mean you should narrow your options.

 

Honestly, I just can't imagine giving up a child, "open" adoption or not, and separating siblings.  I believe it's possible you and your husband will begin to feel differently as the pregnancy progresses.

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#3 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The "right fit" adoptive family would feel the same way that you do, that it would seem exciting to them to maintain or have strict open lines of contact between this child and his/her siblings/birth parents.  My adoption fantasy would be to have a relationship that is like an aunt or a grandmother with the child, where there is love and some kind of communication, but not a parent/child relationship/bond

 

The "right fit" adoptive family would be radically honest, appreciate my radical honesty, and be ready to radically trust me to do my part.

 

I have a good deal of experience with surrendering attachments, including considering adoption throughout my prior pregnancy, and having had as many abortions as I have had live births.  I feel confident, as I said, that I could joyfully surrender the responsibilities and rewards of parenting this child.  Processing and surrendering of sentimental attachments is the name of the game of my spiritual path.  Attachment is suffering.  Bliss arises in the absence of attachment. 


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#4 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here's another bit of information to fill out the picture: 

 

My husband and I are a science-dork and a gravely concerned mother (respectively) and we are convinced that the climate is changing much faster than most people understand.  We are committed to radical activism, promoting awareness for climate change, and this endeavor occurs to us as having precedence over all other considerations, sentimental concerns, or attachments. 

 

Our understanding of the science is that the home which we own (in Missouri) will be overtaken by desert throughout the course of the next 10-15 years, and that mass suffering:  hunger, thirst, homelessness, etc. will become the reality of humanity, and will define both the life and the death of our children.  I am expecting to see my children die, and I am compelled to do everything I can before that time, to rescue them before-the-fact.  Imagine how that kind of understanding might affect one's choice to commit to the upbringing of a fifth child.  When there is another person/family waiting to love the child, and who will likely have more availability, and means to focus on the needs of this particular child in the event of the impending climate catastrophe?  Whether or not we directly parent this child, we are acting to literally rescue his planet from the carbon emissions of modern industry, which is the most profound way that we can conceive of to support his/her thriving.

Like being drafted into war, we cannot neglect our duty to serve and protect our species, and all of the other species of life on this planet.  We must set aside our prior expectations and visions of reality, and accept that this is a life-or-death emergency. 


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#5 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 08:43 PM
 
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Can you direct me toward some reliable information regarding climate change having the implications you and your husband fear?

 

Thanks.  :)


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#6 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 08:55 PM
 
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I can't imagine adopting a child whose mom would want to breastfeed him for a year and mentor my parenting. That sounds so intrusive.

 

 

Rather than all the high words about climate change and arts and how great you are, how about some radical honesty?  Uncensored  passionate sex mean no birth control, right?

 

Not having a career path that can support your kids means you do not want to learn profession that will provide you with income because you enjoy being an artist but you are not commerically successful.

 

Perhaps more realistic path is to get permanent method of birth control so you can be as uncensored as you wish and also get a careers. There many vocation you can learn that will make you and your children independent from the tax payers. Some  careers are even art oriented like being an art therapist or graphic design and many others.

 

Since you are poly, perhaps another solution is to merge resource with another lovely family and form a tribe.  There a lot of benefits to poly tribe arrangement.

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#7 of 62 Old 09-22-2012, 09:09 PM
 
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I too am interested in the climate change information. 

 

That aside, I think that separating your children from their sibling, and the sibling from them, shouldn't be done lightly. There was another thread awhile back about "should my husband and I conceive a child and adopt it out to our friends" and most people who commented came down against that idea, and I think some of the considerations are similar here. It seems like the advantages of an adoptive situation would have to be really, really substantial to outweigh the disadvantages of giving away your child, your kids' sibling, and the disadvantages for them of being separated from their biological family. 

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#8 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 05:57 AM
 
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 Processing and surrendering of sentimental attachments is the name of the game of my spiritual path.  Attachment is suffering.  Bliss arises in the absence of attachment. 

 

I would like to respectively point out that this may not be the spiritual path of your baby, your other children, or the potential adoptive parents.  Adoption triads are full of members who thought they "owned" their emotional attachments, but then find the suffereing is extreme.  I have to say, I agree with the PP who suggested permanent birth control.

 

As for now, you have to consider what is best for your baby.  No one can tell you that, you must figure it out for yourself.  From what you posted here, you are not in the dire circumstances that would make placing the baby the best choice.  But that is only what you wrote here.  Only you know that for sure.  What you wrote here makes placing the baby almost sound like a religious test, and that isn't fair to anyone.

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#9 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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For those of you who would like to explore the most recent climate science and form your own updated opinion or concerns about the matter, this thread that I started in the activism forum will get you to links galore.  And if you want more, or are looking for a specific vein of information, please let me know. 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1363362/global-warming-will-be-the-death-of-our-species-including-our-children-newest-science-spells-urgency

 

My comment about surrendering my attachments was a response the the first posted comment which said that she thought *I* would probably change my mind. 

And for that matter, surrendering attachments is at the core of every spiritual path, even atheism.  Though perhaps you do not relate to the concept with the same words. 

 

Let me clarify something here.  I'm not asking if you think I should offer this child to a loving family or keep it myself or go to medical doctor and alter the body that god has asked me to carry.  I can make all of those decisions for myself with care and confidence, knowing that my truths reside in my own connection with spirit. 

Opinions about what you imagine you would do in my situation are not appropriate to this thread, unless you feel that you are truly offering a perspective which I might not have heard of or thought of before.  Does that make sense?  Nobody needs to assess the right or wrongness of my truths, except perhaps as a reference for how you would wish, or not wish, to choose for yourself, as you proceed into your own future. 

 

I feel confident that it makes sense for me to explore adoptive families.  You see, my understanding is that there are many families out there who would love to have a baby.  And who find challenge and great expense in the adoptions process and legalities, especially international adoptions.  My understanding is that there are people who are ready, willing, and able to care for an infant, and who would feel deep gratitude at the opportunity to become parent(s) to this one.  We do not hoard the wonder of love or family in polyamory.  We embrace the web of larger connection, the broken village, and we find the uplifting of an adoptive family by the magic of a new child, to be as exciting as the uplifting of our own family.  We would always feel a sense of connection with the child, and as I have said, twice now, I think, the "right fit" family would feel the same, and would also want for their child to maintain a connection with the birth family.  As the child would grow into a young adult, we would want to be available to the adopted one to listen to every question and address every hurt feeling or fear.  I understand that adoption is complicated.  Truly, everything is very complicated in a world where all natural balance(climate), and therefore all pretend balance (economies, legal structures, and governments) are slated for destruction. 

 

Alenushka, if you think my husband and I should alter our bodies and get fancy careers which offer "financial security" in return, I invite you to start a new thread with this as the subject or send me a private message, for these matters are certainly off-topic in a thread which is seeking advice as to how I might go about this process of looking for an adoptive family for this child.  Perhaps you know a lawyer you could suggest?  Maybe you know a family who would like to parent a child?  Perhaps you can suggest a website for people who are looking to learn more about the options surrounding open adoption.  I'm sure, deep down, your intention is to be helpful.  These questions might get you back on track! 


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#10 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 07:17 AM
 
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What a beautiful and heart-wrenching post.  I am a former La Leche league leader and homebirther and also a mother who lost a child to adoption. 

 

I am also an author who has  researched and written about adoption for nearly 40 years.

 

Every adoption - including open adoptions - begin with with the original parents (you and your husband) relinquishing ALL parental rights.

 

*** OPEN ADOPTION IS NOT SHARED CUSTODY! ***

 

The adoptive parents have all legal rights to make all decisions regarding the child and you have none. In all but two states, begin with the original birth certificate being SEALED and a new false certificate issued listing the adoptive parents as the parents of birth. 

 

Open adoption involves agreements between the two sets of parents but even the states that claim "enforcement" the best that can happen if the promises of openness are renege on or changed, is mediation. The courts cannot force the legal parents of a child to allow a legal stranger visitation. The adopters will have THEIR attorney write up the agreement. it will favor them in all final decisions. You will not be able to afford your own attorney and even if you did, your rights will have been relinquished. 

 

You are far too sensitive and caring a woman to separate full siblings and loose a child without a great deal of regret and a lifetime of grief.

I beseech you before making a decision to speak to those who have walked a mile in your shoes and regret it every minute of their lives! There is a Facebook group called "Mothers of Open Adoption Fraud."  Search for it, but the name alone speaks volumes! many promise open adoption and do not keep their promises! BEWARE!! Please also contact Origins-Usa.org.

 

If you really, really believe there is no way possible to feed another mouth - what you really want is GUARDIANSHIP. Find a couple willing to be legal guardians of your child. That way there is no relinquishment of your rights and your child will always know who you are. In open adoption, if it fails, it is just like a closed adoption. Your child will never who you are or how to find you and vice versa. And like Dr. House always says: "people lie! especially when they want a child very badly - they will say everything you want to hear.

 

Also - chances of finding adopters who will let you breastfeed "their" child is next to zero! Stick to that criteria - it will definitely narrow the field!

 

Find me via FamilyPreservation.blogspot.com

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#11 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 08:51 AM
 
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I can only implore you do do some more research about the realities of what you are seeking for your family and yourself first before you attempt to find another family. Of course, you will be able to find someone who will be only to happy to take your child, but the consequences for all of you is way more than you can imagine. Please just take some time and read. http://www.musingsofthelame.com/p/dealing-with-birthmother-grief.html

 

And PLEASE read what adoptees feel.. as that is what you might be choosing for your child:

http://www.musingsofthelame.com/2004/03/blogs-written-by-adoptees.html

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#12 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I appreciate these posts and I hear the wisdom of experience in your post, Alicia. 

I also have to object to the logical flaw that because many adoptions go wrong, so to speak, that all open adoptions will fail.  Or that because some adoptees feel negative emotion as an apparent direct result of their having been adopted into difficult families (or whatever each specific case entails), that it can be deduced that all adoptees resent having been adopted. 

I have known a number of adopted persons who felt grateful for their adoptive family, curious about their birth family, or even connected with or resolved to be separate from their birth families. 

I have known adoptive and/or surrogate mothers who felt proud and appreciative of the adoptive family, as well as who enjoyed a long-distance relationship with the child. 

 

I have never said anything about Shared Custody.  Yet, I value the distinction and will look more into a guardianship option, to see if there is any appeal in it for our situation.  Truly, I would want for the new family to feel entirely free to make all decisions for the child.  I would not want to share that responsibility, or to try to negotiate compromises with them. 

 

My offer to breastfeed or donate breastmilk is a generous offer, and has not been presented as a requirement.  I offer it, because I know the virtue of breastmilk, and because I imagine there are adoptive mothers who would wish to be able to raise their infant on human milk.  In my life, I have breastfed a handful of other mothers' children, and had my own children nursed by other mothers.  As an example, with my first child I shared my home and my job with another mother.  We each worked part time, and nursed the other's child as well as our own while she was away at our job.  This does not occur to me as unfortunate, scary, or yucky, and there are other women in the world who are also ready to sidestep current cultural norms, think outside the box, and consider a wet-nurse or part-time wet-nurse scenario as being a potentially ideal way to feed one's infant, if being able to nurse him/her personally was not an option. 

I have not said that I would require them to feed their child my milk, as was guffawed about in a prior post!  Or that I would expect them to accept me as their mentor.  These are generous offers, which would appeal to a very small set of open-minded and enthusiastic adoptive [possible first-time] mothers/parents.

 

The feedback that [most] adoptive families would readily fib in order to get their baby is clearly wise and true.  So, how can I effectively search for a family which is the best fit...a family which is looking for a birth mother as unique as myself?  A family which is ready to be radical, brave, and true!

 

(edited to repair a couple of typos)


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#13 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 10:53 AM
 
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i frankly think you are being pretty self delusion about this whole subject. you are right that just because some even many situations do not go as planned that does not mean your will too. but you have such a huge laundry list of wants and specification that you are setting yourself up for a struggle. i cant imagine the adoptive parents that would honestly be ok with your laundry list.

 

and what are you actually asking here on this thread? our reaction, advice, help finding you a adoptive family?  i have read this all out of curiosity and the fact that both my cousins are adopted.

i have read everything you said and Im not sure what you are posting it for?

 

 

 

Alenushka, that is one of the better post I've read in a while


partners.gif 2twins.gif  So what if I don't fit cleanly into a defined parenting style, my kids don't fit into a personality archetype either!

 
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#14 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamatochubchub View Post

For those of you who would like to explore the most recent climate science and form your own updated opinion or concerns about the matter, this thread that I started in the activism forum will get you to links galore.  And if you want more, or are looking for a specific vein of information, please let me know. 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1363362/global-warming-will-be-the-death-of-our-species-including-our-children-newest-science-spells-urgency

 

My comment about surrendering my attachments was a response the the first posted comment which said that she thought *I* would probably change my mind. 

And for that matter, surrendering attachments is at the core of every spiritual path, even atheism.  Though perhaps you do not relate to the concept with the same words. 

 

Let me clarify something here.  I'm not asking if you think I should offer this child to a loving family or keep it myself or go to medical doctor and alter the body that god has asked me to carry.  I can make all of those decisions for myself with care and confidence, knowing that my truths reside in my own connection with spirit. 

Opinions about what you imagine you would do in my situation are not appropriate to this thread, unless you feel that you are truly offering a perspective which I might not have heard of or thought of before.  Does that make sense?  Nobody needs to assess the right or wrongness of my truths, except perhaps as a reference for how you would wish, or not wish, to choose for yourself, as you proceed into your own future. 

 

I feel confident that it makes sense for me to explore adoptive families.  You see, my understanding is that there are many families out there who would love to have a baby.  And who find challenge and great expense in the adoptions process and legalities, especially international adoptions.  My understanding is that there are people who are ready, willing, and able to care for an infant, and who would feel deep gratitude at the opportunity to become parent(s) to this one.  We do not hoard the wonder of love or family in polyamory.  We embrace the web of larger connection, the broken village, and we find the uplifting of an adoptive family by the magic of a new child, to be as exciting as the uplifting of our own family.  We would always feel a sense of connection with the child, and as I have said, twice now, I think, the "right fit" family would feel the same, and would also want for their child to maintain a connection with the birth family.  As the child would grow into a young adult, we would want to be available to the adopted one to listen to every question and address every hurt feeling or fear.  I understand that adoption is complicated.  Truly, everything is very complicated in a world where all natural balance(climate), and therefore all pretend balance (economies, legal structures, and governments) are slated for destruction. 

 

Alenushka, if you think my husband and I should alter our bodies and get fancy careers which offer "financial security" in return, I invite you to start a new thread with this as the subject or send me a private message, for these matters are certainly off-topic in a thread which is seeking advice as to how I might go about this process of looking for an adoptive family for this child.  Perhaps you know a lawyer you could suggest?  Maybe you know a family who would like to parent a child?  Perhaps you can suggest a website for people who are looking to learn more about the options surrounding open adoption.  I'm sure, deep down, your intention is to be helpful.  These questions might get you back on track! 

 

I said you could *possibly* change your mind, not probably.  I don't know you and therefore, why would I comment on what was probable?

 

Also, your responses seem to be quite defensive.   When you put your thoughts and plans out in front of others and seek advice, you have to be prepared to hear things you don't like.


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#15 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Emma, I heard other mothers in this thread tell me that I would regret adopting my child, after the fact.  It was to them that I was speaking, not your comment. 

 

Adorkable, you ask what it is that I am seeking in this thread.  May I redirect you to my first paragraph? 

 

"I'm going to be open about my circumstances and the variables I would bring to an adoption scenario and I would appreciate any feedback anyone here can offer me as to what might be possible or ideal for helping to connect me with the awaiting parent(s) who would feel most appreciative and aligned with the gifts and limitations I can offer!"

 

I am not asking for judgmental reactions.  I am asking for helpful advice.  Make sense?


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#16 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 01:21 PM
 
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No  one is judging when they say that you may not want to look at open adoption. The ideal that you are describing, is one that as a member of the so-called open adoption world, does not exist. You should look at the laws in your state because many open adoption agreements are not legally enforcable, so you could wind up with adoptive families who think you are batsh!t crazy for what you are suggesting, but desire that baby, and decide to pull the rug out within 2 years of adoption. It happens more than you think. 

 

Adoption is not rainbows and butterflies. Separating yourself from your child is traumatic, especially in the situation you are describing too. I'm a birthmother 10 years out and I have PTSD, anxiety issues and have to deal with the emotional ramificaitons of my adoption still. It's a never ending, not at all as easy as you are describing it, process. 

 

My suggestion? Wait until you are further along. Feel it out then. Read about adoption from all perspectives, the good, the bad and the  ugly before creating this, from my experience, unrealistic ideal of adoption. Adoption is tough, it's a hard road, and it's not at all as it's perceived in our society. It's grueling, and heartbreaking, it's traumatic- and as a Mama who is attachment based, youshould know in all cases, the best place for the baby is with his or her mother. Always. 

 

Good luck to you, but don't mistake real life experiences as judgment. Consider them more of a warning- and our voices are one of many who have been slighted by the adoption system. 

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#17 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 02:03 PM
 
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We do not hoard the wonder of love or family in polyamory.  We embrace the web of larger connection, the broken village, and we find the uplifting of an adoptive family by the magic of a new child, to be as exciting as the uplifting of our own family.

 

I have been involved in my local polyamorous community for a very long time, and I have to say:  This is what we hope for, and it is not always what we get.  (And I think I reject the "broken village" metaphor - that may be part of your polyamory, but it is not part of many.)  When there are children involved, we need to look beyond our best hopes and make contingency plans to protect our children in the event that our best hopes are not realized.  We also have to be aware that we don't control the feelings of everyone involved - you and your partner and the adoptive parents may all be on the same page, but the children may wind up on some other page, with very different feelings then you expected.  Furthermore, if the uplifting you imagine doesn't work out - if it turns out not to be what the other family wanted (and people do change their minds) what then?

 

You seem to envision and desire a lot of connection with this child, which makes me think you would be better off not seeking an adoption.  I am especially concerned that your description of the ideal adoption scenario looks a lot more like adding an adult to your own family then it looks like giving a child to a family separate from your own. 

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#18 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 02:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamatochubchub View Post

 

I have a good deal of experience with surrendering attachments, including considering adoption throughout my prior pregnancy, and having had as many abortions as I have had live births.  I feel confident, as I said, that I could joyfully surrender the responsibilities and rewards of parenting this child.  Processing and surrendering of sentimental attachments is the name of the game of my spiritual path.  Attachment is suffering.  Bliss arises in the absence of attachment. 

My understanding is that you and your partner have very deeply held spiritual and philosophical beliefs about the world and your/our place in it. These beliefs sound fairly radical so I hope you will forgive those that don't completely buy into it. There are many extreme philosophies being touted now, more than ever before and those of us that have been in the world a while have also seen them come and go.

 

You posted in the Adoptive/Foster Parenting forum. These mamas have a lot of experience with all sides of the triad. They do get how challenging this is, and how challenging the scenario you have laid out would be.

 

Perhaps not for you. As your post indicates, attachment is not something that you are striving for with your intimates. Perhaps it is even something you are avoiding based on your spiritual path.

 

However, babies are wired for attachment. Scientifically, all the neuroscience you will read about babies and attachment will point you to the scientific fact that babies do not adjust as easily as you think to your proposed arrangement. And so if you take science seriously, you need to take attachment science seriously, as well as climate science. Don't just take the word of these experienced mamas --do your research.

 

I think if you are not prepared to parent this vulnerable human, created without forethought despite your worldview of impending catastrophe, then you likely should find a great adoption agency and begin pursuing the finding of a compatible minded pre-adoptive family unit as quickly as possible.

 

Perhaps if you reframe it as such for the thread -- "please help me find a terrific adoption agency" you might get more ideas. I think by providing all the detail about how the child was conceived, your view of the planet and your lack of an attachment focus, it did open you up a bit to commentary that you do not seem to want to entertain.


 
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#19 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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(in response to  teale) Thanks!  And to clarify I appreciated the posts which are honestly sharing about their experience.  The judgments were coming from others, and my intention was to distinguish the judgments from the helpful advice, just as you are.  

*thumbs up*


Dana McHonkenquacken

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Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#20 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Meepy cat...I think you are getting the hopeful vision, which I know is possible to create.  And I agree that community/relationship arrangements also fall short of the expectations which each person unknowingly had, from the get go. 

 

I do not think your fear of our hoping to wrangle a new mother into pacing with our project is founded, however.  Our pacing project is open to anyone who feels drawn to pace.  If it were me, and the birthmama was offering to be a wetnurse for my new baby, I would strongly consider it.  I know that most people wouldn't.  I'm ok with people thinking I sound weird or crazy. 

At the same time, I have enough community and relationship experience to know that there is a strong likelihood that the birth mother would not want that or choose that, and can you imagine...that would be somewhat of a relief to me also?  I want to help nourish this child, if the parents would be appreciative, and I want to welcome other activists to our project, if they are enthusiastic to join it...and the more folks you add in, the more complicated it gets.  I know this.  I offer my support to a first-time parent or single mother, because I'm an awesome resource for new parents.  I'm not trying to keep the baby close...that would seem to be the emotionally harder road...yet I firmly believe I have the personal strength which that temporary tribe formation would demand of me. 


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#21 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 03:05 PM
 
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I just wanted to share with you me experiences with open adoption. I know every situation is different as is every birth parent, adoptive parent, and agency. From an agency perspective, open adoption can range from phone calls and letters to in person visits. The agency we used had a more open policy than most, and the average level of connection between birth and adoptive families is 3-5 in person visits per year with letters and possibly phone calls between. Does this sound like the level of contact you are hoping for in a potential family?

 

I think that you have gotten lots of good opinions here, but please keep in mind how emotional adoption can be for everyone involved. I have experience as an adoptive mother as well as something of an adopted adult, and not as a birth mother so I can't speak from that part of the triad. No one can say if this is the right path for you or your unborn child, but I agree with the PP who suggested you wait until you are further along to make any decisions. If you are curious what sorts of adoptive parents are out there, you can start looking on sites like parent profiles or even local agencies will often have waiting families on their websites. 

 

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#22 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 03:07 PM
 
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As an adoptee, all I can think about if what it was like to meet (and get to know) my first mom, and my four siblings, who are all still together and happy. Talk about tough! After the excitement of meeting them and knowing they are there and love you wears off, other not so comfortable emotions can emerge. Jealousy is by far the worst. I am so far from a jealous person, but even I am eaten up by seeing their happy family. I am at the point where I almost wish I hadn't found them. Even though they include me and treat me like one of the family, it is obvious that we share only blood, genes, and some mannerisms. It's Not enough.

FWIW, my own family IS happy, and as far as adoption goes, it was a best case scenario. However, theres nothing, nothing, like seeing what was suppose to be your family, without you in it. I feel like I was sacrificed to allow them to have the family they got. My bio moms situation was different, so I know that is an unfair characterization, but I still cant help how I feel. I dont want to resent her, but seeing my siblings relationships is too much. i will never have that with them and it hurts. My first mom was damaged by the adoption as well. It just cuts so deep for all that are involved.

Adoptive parents, like my mom, also live in fear and terror that the original parents will come back and claim their loved one. Even though I met my original family at 30, she still had these feelings and it caused much anger, resentment, and disharmony. These fears of their kid rejecting them for their other family, no matter how unfounded, makes adoptive parents do things you would never expect- like drop out of your (bio mom) life entirely even after agreeing to see you. They will have the right, and often, after a few years of parenting, will use it. At first, all they see is the much wanted baby, so they agree to anything you want. But once that child is theirs in their heart, they can turn on you. (I know not all adoptive parents are like this, but many are and I think it's totally normal to feel this way).

I am in no way against adoption. I do think of it as often the best choice out of a hand of all bad cards. It is not the ideal, and I cannot imagine what that kid would think when they learn the circumstances of their adoption. I know adding a 5th can be overwhelming, but consider what this will do to everyone involved, including you, your hub, your kids, and this new baby, and its new family. In the future, if you dont want to enlarge your family, I would truly consider Essure or Mirena, or other semi to permanent BC- abortion and adoption are both serious and shouldn't be repeatedly done just because you don't like BC. It's just not fair.

Best Luck to you and yours.

(oh, Im an atheist and losing attachment has ZERO to do with my spirituality or atheism in general. The most beautiful things in this life are our loved ones, and loved places.)
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#23 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Woe is me!  I just typed a full response and accidentally navigated away from it...I will restart *buckling on belt of determination*

 

"My understanding is that you and your partner have very deeply held spiritual and philosophical beliefs about the world and your/our place in it. These beliefs sound fairly radical so I hope you will forgive those that don't completely buy into it. There are many extreme philosophies being touted now, more than ever before and those of us that have been in the world a while have also seen them come and go."

 

Are you referring to climate science as an "extreme philosophy"?  Certainly the fossil fuel industries and their well-paid denialists will agree with you on that.  Yet, are you suggesting I am trying to sell something?  That I am hoping to get anyone to "buy into" something?  Sister, I have nothing to gain by climate change and everything to lose, same as you.

 

You posted in the Adoptive/Foster Parenting forum. These mamas have a lot of experience with all sides of the triad. They do get how challenging this is, and how challenging the scenario you have laid out would be.

 

*nod*, that is why I posted here.

 

"Perhaps not for you. As your post indicates, attachment is not something that you are striving for with your intimates. Perhaps it is even something you are avoiding based on your spiritual path.

However, babies are wired for attachment. Scientifically, all the neuroscience you will read about babies and attachment will point you to the scientific fact that babies do not adjust as easily as you think to your proposed arrangement. And so if you take science seriously, you need to take attachment science seriously, as well as climate science. Don't just take the word of these experienced mamas --do your research."

 

Here we have some clouds of assumption casting confusing shade on our conversation.   As with many words in our language, the word "attachement" has more than one definition.  Usually, at MDC and such places we're using the word "attachment" when we refer to attachment parenting...the important bond between mother and infant, which, we intend, will be instilled and will grow up with our children...keeping the love and trust alive in them and affirming their own sense of security and well-being.  In the way you are using this word, I will not strive to maintain attachment to this child, if it is being raised by another family.  If an arrangement were to involve a span of time during which I help nourish the baby, there would be more ambiguity here...it would be a dance of attachment which the adoptive mother would be opting to involve me in, and I would gracefully disengage at whichever time was asked of me by the child's mother.  If we raise the child, we will establish an attachment through breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby-wearing, etc. same as I have with my other children.

There is another use of the word "attachment" in the world of personal growth.  Many different paths, religions, teachers and practicioners/growers use this word to refer to an experience of being psychologically stuck on one story or strategy for how something is or was supposed to work...how one's ex-husband should have behaved...how families are supposed to look...how I'm supposed to appear to others.  The understanding extends further, that these ideas always lead to suffering, because ultimately, all things come to an end, the only constant is change, etc.  It is understood that we experience suffering to the degree by which we maintain "attachment".   

 

I think if you are not prepared to parent this vulnerable human, created without forethought despite your worldview of impending catastrophe, then you likely should find a great adoption agency and begin pursuing the finding of a compatible minded pre-adoptive family unit as quickly as possible.

 

For what is may be worth to you, or others reading this thread, we did not create this child in the midst of our understanding of current climate science.  Rather, when I was five or six weeks pregnant, I read Bill McKibben's article http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719 .  That was the first time that I began to grasp the urgent new timelines which are being presented by the climate scientists.  Since that time, my family has been reading everything we can find on the subject, deepening our understanding.  All the while, the debate rolled along about whether or not we "should" abort.  We didn't want an abortion, we didn't feel that we could, with absolute clarity, end the early life of this being who has been so determined to join us, humanity, on this side of physical form.  Our default plan is that we will parent this child, joyfully, as I have said...yet, we feel also that we may be carrying this child for another joyful family, and in that case, it is my duty to seek them out, or at least make it known that this baby is coming...so that the mother or family might seek out us.  

I am very interested to obtain references for "a terrific adoption agency"...that would be helpful...this is the kind of suggestion I'm soliciting by this thread. 

Thanks!

 


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#24 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I can agree with some of what you have said, Alenushka, and other parts of what you write are simply incorrect.  Either way, it is clear to me that you and I have very divergent visions for our world.  Would you like my assumptions and opinions about your personal life?   Would it matter what I think?  No, it wouldn't. 

Can we stick to the subject of the thread, please?


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#25 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Alenushka, this is Mamatochubchub's husband. I have been following her conversation with all of you. I am aware that she does not want to have this thread get off-topic, so I am only going to briefly respond to your previous post, because I think that it is important that those who reply to her request for resource suggestions understand our reality, and you make public assumptions about us that obscure the picture. We, too, are taxpayers. We are currently homeowners.

 

I think that you are believing that because we currently receive some public assistance, that we are irresponsible degenerates abusing the system so as not to work. Actually, we both work, quite hard. Most of our work is done as volunteer service, though I do also have a small health practitioner clinic that generates some income for us.

 

What we are not committed to, what we don't believe is necessary, is "earning" money. In fact, we believe that "commercial success," as you put it, has just about ruined our planet, not equitably cared for all people, and made the natural human pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and deep relationships more shallow, by orienting people toward selling each other things, and competing at that enterprise, at the expense of all the experience of wonder and social richness that can be had by collaboration.

 

You may say: "Food stamps is helping you to buy food, so you use money," and that is true. It is a situation we are actively moving our family away from. We garden (although this year's Midwest drought, in part thanks to climate change, made that very hard to do). We are learning how to hunt. We raise animals for food.  Our goal is to provide for our own sustenance and manage our family's needs without participating in the growing socio-economic inequity, and without contributing to the plunder and destruction of the world.

 

But, we do work, every day. We don't watch TV. We are currently working on writing a couple of books, and organizing and carrying out our Pacing the Planet campaign, to raise awareness about the very real and present challenge of major climate change. We have decided that this is the biggest service we can do for our fellow humans, and we don't at all feel embarrassed or ashamed that taxpayers should help feed us, so that we can go and give presentations to college campus organizations and the like.  This would seem to be much more worthwhile than taxes paying for us to guard our fossil fuel sources in other countries (through war), or even than our taking foodstamps while we break our backs working for a Dollar General. 

 

Into this mix has come an unexpected pregnancy, and we welcome this being joyfully into our lives, even though we question God's (or the Universe's) timing, given what we have currently been learning in-depth about the coming climate changes, and given that it is an inconvenient time to re-submerge under the Madonna's Cloak. We are, however, open-minded, considering many possibilities, and one of those possibilities is that this child "belongs" with another family. If that is where we are guided, our family will embrace that with as much emotional strength as we can, knowing that adoption doesn't necessarily mean the child will be stripped of its opportunity to know its biological parents (although that can happen, just as we may also get struck by a bus and wind up dead tomorrow). Guidance would likely come in the form of a family, or parent, who is impassioned by mamatochubchub's suggested relationship between our two families, and who steps forward at this time. We also prepare to expand our family, to take care of this new young one, and continue weaving the intricate tapestry of our lives.
 

 

(edited by Dana/mamatochubchub to add this commentary:  so much for his writing briefly!  Hmph!  :P )


Dana McHonkenquacken

Poly Wife to: 

Gavain McHonkenquacken

Mama to: 

Egon Zap (m, 10)

Poppy Vespertine (f, 7)

Simon Lavender (aka Skeletor Hawk) (m, 4)

Tillwyn Calliope (f, 1)

and a determined, sweet, pitter-pattering life form, about the size of an apple, who is forcing me to eat icecream (due...

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#26 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 06:59 PM
 
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Hang on a second - your understanding of global warming as a life-threatening issue for your family has arisen only in the last few months?

 

Did your plan for nomadic living also arise in this time frame?

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#27 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 07:31 PM
 
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If you were taking global warming seriously, you would not have 5 kids.  I used method of permanent birth control to limit my family to 2 children.  I know that no amount of recycling, biking or gardening will compensate for the resources each of my children will consume.

 

You can ride all the donkey cart you want , and lecture people with your flowery language as much as your heart desires, but you are not being radically honest. Every child mean more resource being drained and and more fuel consumed and more gases screwing with nature's atmosphere.

 

If you want to be honest and real, get a vasectomy.

 

Please , do not full yourself. You perfpm no service to me as a taxpayer. As a taxpayer I am already aware of global warning and take steps every day to reduce it thank to the hard work of actual hard working scientists.

 

Dollare General. You are getting food stamps and enjoying a luxury of having 4 kids because someone somewhere gets up at 6 am and earns that money for you while helping others. Someone who also volunteers and bikes to work, all without hand outs from the man.

 

Radical honesty? Start with yourself.

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#28 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 07:50 PM
 
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OP you're getting the short end of the stick in this thread, huh? A lot of what you and your partner have posted resonates with me. I hope you find an adoption situation that you are comfortable with. I think it's possible, if a little difficult, but hopefully doable!


Jean, feminist mama raising three boys: W (7), E (5) and L (2.15.13)

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#29 of 62 Old 09-23-2012, 08:39 PM
 
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It sounds like you are really hoping for some good advice, maybe some spiritual counsel.  Having such different beliefs, customs and ideas, it might be hard for you to find someone you trust who could give you that advice, and for you to feel their advice really applies to your situation.  On the other hand, you know that all people have many things in common, so you are looking here online for some kind of advice.  I hope you can get some actual, real, in person advice as well!  What about your own mothers?  Is there a psychologist, pastor, or other person who might give you some advice in this situation?  Even if they have different beliefs than you, they might give you some good things to think about. 

 

My main concern would be, what about your other 4 kids?  Won't it be confusing or even heartbreaking for them to say goodbye to their sibling?  If you try to gloss it over, lie, explain it in a spiritual way, etc., eventually they will still come to the same realization, even if they have to tell one another, in hushed whispers, years later...Mom and Dad gave away our little brother/sister.  The details about possible climate collapse, important work to do, not being that well off...none of that will really matter to them.

 

It sounds like you have a lot of interesting things you are doing, and I don't doubt you are a very unique, talented person, and a good mother.  But I wonder if you and/or your husband might be partly motivated in this adoption idea by a fear about your own mental health?  Or perhaps a difficulty with mental health is leading you to take a possibility--I agree, climate change is a serious topic--and placing that topic into much too high of a priority in your lives, to the point of a delusion.  Do you have a history of anything like bipolar disorder that is not being treated correctly?  Does your husband fear that you will have severe postpartum depression or another similar issue, and avoids the real subject by discussing global warming and difficult finances?  Sometimes issues like this interfere with a mother's ability to mother.  If so, get help.  Giving up a baby for adoption would not solve a mental health issue.  You still have 4 other wonderful children that need a fully functioning mother and hopefully father also.

 

I hope you aren't offended by this series of questions.  I just saw some possible red flags in your writings that lead me to question your mental health at this time, and I am guessing that you are a very talented person, very motivated, and very caring, who would want to be sure of her mental health for the sake of her children, rather than give one up for adoption and hope that solves the issue.  Believe me, I am not judging you.  I have walked alongside other women who have had mental health issues, including some who have given up their children voluntarily, or had them taken away.  I hope you would not look back at this time in your life, realize you had been suffering a mental health issue, and been sorry that you lost a child out of that.  Both you and your husband, I hope you both look very carefully at each of your mental health.  You are smart, you will find a way to provide for this baby.  Whether it's working at Dollar General, selling stuff at the farmer's market, opening a home daycare, just being more frugal, whatever.  Best wishes!

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#30 of 62 Old 09-24-2012, 06:52 AM
 
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OP, I hope you will read newsolarmomma2's post very, very carefully. I am not going to offer any advice, but I do think you come as a bit naive about adoption. I think that it is very important to consider the effects that open adoption might have on this child, who (in your own stated best case scenario) will have to deal with the emotions of seeing the family unit/sibling group from which s/he is excluded. 

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