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#91 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:06 PM
 
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I feel it's a case of striking a balance, and I'm glad that we are having this discussion.  I do feel that on occasion, it is very apparent that the no-circ group creates (albeit unintentionally) a certain degree of paranoia when it comes to handling the foreskin, which leads to these kinds of situations were we are discussing the minutiae of what constitutes retraction and what may cause harm.  The answer is that every boy is different and every case is different - there's a surprise!  I do think the 'leave it alone' rule is a valuable one to teach, but I also feel that it is, on occasion, hammered home so forcefully that it becomes counter productive and causes us to second guess ourselves constantly about whether everything looks ok (hence the head exploding with worry post).  I have also witnessed many posts where an anguished parent describes symptoms, pain and discomfort, and a strong no-circ advocate will actively tell the parent not to visit the doctor.  I personally feel this is irresponsible.

 

Not surprisingly, a strong supporter against circumcision is going to advocate a 100% "hands off" approach with regard to the foreskin.  Broadly, I agree with this.  But it doesn't always fit every situation, and leads to a great deal of confusion and worry that Doctors are harming children by simply pushing back the foreskin slightly, without retraction.

 

Ultimately, the parent has to educate him/herself and decide on what is best for their son.  They have every right to see their wishes carried out and respected.

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#92 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:13 PM
 
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I feel it's a case of striking a balance, and I'm glad that we are having this discussion.  I do feel that on occasion, it is very apparent that the no-circ group creates (albeit unintentionally) a certain degree of paranoia when it comes to handling the foreskin, which leads to these kinds of situations were we are discussing the minutiae of what constitutes retraction and what may cause harm.  The answer is that every boy is different and every case is different - there's a surprise!  I do think the 'leave it alone' rule is a valuable one to teach, but I also feel that it is, on occasion, hammered home so forcefully that it becomes counter productive and causes us to second guess ourselves constantly about whether everything looks ok (hence the head exploding with worry post).  I have also witnessed many posts where an anguished parent describes symptoms, pain and discomfort, and a strong no-circ advocate will actively tell the parent not to visit the doctor.  I personally feel this is irresponsible.

 

Not surprisingly, a strong supporter against circumcision is going to advocate a 100% "hands off" approach with regard to the foreskin.  Broadly, I agree with this.  But it doesn't always fit every situation, and leads to a great deal of confusion and worry that Doctors are harming children by simply pushing back the foreskin slightly, without retraction.

 

Ultimately, the parent has to educate him/herself and decide on what is best for their son.  They have every right to see their wishes carried out and respected.



In the bolded for me is the bottom line. With the OP she shouldnt have had to have told the Dr. over and over no retraction.

I have thought about the retraction thing a time or two and it did cross my mind how being so hard line about it can give the impression that the foreskin is so delicate it cant handle anything and I have always tried to phrase my posts in a way to make it understood that isnt the case but I also want to get across that there is a risk of harm if retraction is done. It colors your perceptions a lot when it has been your child harmed by it happening and you have dealt with Dr.'s who obviously have no idea how to deal with the intact penis.


 
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#93 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:19 PM
 
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I am completely floored that this is the response I am getting in this forum.  ;I won't be recommending it to friends anymore.

 

Yes, tennisdude23, it was my interpretation of events.  You know, just like everything we experience in life is an interpretation of events.  Cogito ergo sum and all that.

 

TCMoulton - how am I supposed to answer that?  Are you implying that I have intentionally misrepresented what happened?

 

I'm going to take a break from this thread.  Thank you all for your responses.


See, the bolded indicates the real problem here. You arent really interested in solving any problems or understanding where other people are coming from. You have a disagreement with your ped over a three second issue, and you throw a big fit, bash her, and try to ruin her rep at the local hospital. You dont hear what you want on a message board, so you arent going to recommend it to your friends anymore. Are you big on punishment? It sure seems like it.

In the above post, you state that you are taking a break from this thread, but the four post you have made in the past 1.5 hours leads me to believe otherwise. What changed your mind?
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#94 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:26 PM
 
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In the bolded for me is the bottom line. With the OP she shouldnt have had to have told the Dr. over and over no retraction.

I have thought about the retraction thing a time or two and it did cross my mind how being so hard line about it can give the impression that the foreskin is so delicate it cant handle anything and I have always tried to phrase my posts in a way to make it understood that isnt the case but I also want to get across that there is a risk of harm if retraction is done. It colors your perceptions a lot when it has been your child harmed by it happening and you have dealt with Dr.'s who obviously have no idea how to deal with the intact penis.
 



I have always found your posts exceptionally helpful, especially after my son was forcibly retracted some time ago.  You tend to keep a good balance in your posts of warning of the dangers, but countering any unnecessary fear with realism.  I am absolutely sure that there are multitudes of parents out there who have breathed a sigh of relief and considered themselves more educated, after reading your advice and guidance.  Thank you.

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#95 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post


TWWS wave.gifflowersforyou.gif

 

 



If anyone has any questions about proper care of the intact penis, or infections, or head-exploding worry, this forum is the place to be!  Nice ladies and gents here, most of us.

 

If you're having problems relaxing, I've heard diazepam works wonders.  Maybe you should ask your doc?

 

Don't worry, I am sure that your ped's advice is fine.  Then again, a savvy parent might consider double-checking anything they feel is questionable.

 

 


That was rude. And totally making light of some people's mental issues. Way out of line, imo. Some people were trying to offer you some perspective and point out to you that perhaps you shouldn't try to ruin this dr.'s career over something that did not happen. Your son was not retracted! Your initial letter and response while rude and condescending should be sufficient.
 

 


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#96 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Adeline'sMama, I became aware of some information about where some of the posts were coming from, and that changed my mind.  I realized that, like everywhere on the interwebz, MDC is not immune from people who like to go around and stir stuff up.  If you'd like more info, PM me.

 

Pheonix, how do you know what happened?  Were you there?  Have you been following the discussion?  Do you have a medical definition of retraction as it pertains to the intact penis of a non-retractable boy?  Because from where I sit, my son's foreskin was manipulated backward toward his torso.  Also, I find your response rude.

 

Everyone:  Once again, I am not interested in ruining anyone's life or career.  If there are further steps that should be taken, I will do so.  If there are not, I will not.  

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#97 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post




In the bolded for me is the bottom line. With the OP she shouldnt have had to have told the Dr. over and over no retraction.

I have thought about the retraction thing a time or two and it did cross my mind how being so hard line about it can give the impression that the foreskin is so delicate it cant handle anything and I have always tried to phrase my posts in a way to make it understood that isnt the case but I also want to get across that there is a risk of harm if retraction is done. It colors your perceptions a lot when it has been your child harmed by it happening and you have dealt with Dr.'s who obviously have no idea how to deal with the intact penis.
 


Not to beat a dead horse, but having established that there is no single definition for retraction, what should have been said is "hands off," because the very word, retraction, is open to interpretation.  I only say this because the word retraction is thrown around this board, but no explanation is given, especially for new parents/posters.  

 

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Have you read the entire thread, tennisdude23?  I specifically stated that if I send the letter, I will rephrase that to indicate that if the doctor believes that retraction is ok, she is putting children at risk.  Which is true.

 

My point is that you concede that medical personnel can interpret the word retraction in multiple ways.  As such, you could also concede that the doctor according to her interpretation was not retracting (you actually confirmed this in a previous post).  Therefore, you cannot say that she way being incompetent in any way, having given her no other specific instructions.  Accordingly, you should not write or send any letters to the hospital because there is no basis to your claim.  Previously, you said you wanted to educate but your original letter had the opposite effect, the reasons for which are stated above.  This at the very least should make you reconsider your approach with this doctor and when dealing with a new health provider.  

 

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#98 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My point is that you concede that medical personnel can interpret the word retraction in multiple ways.  As such, you could also concede that the doctor according to her interpretation was not retracting (you actually confirmed this in a previous post).  Therefore, you cannot say that she way being incompetent in any way, having given her no other specific instructions.  Accordingly, you should not write or send any letters to the hospital because there is no basis to your claim.  Previously, you said you wanted to educate but your original letter had the opposite effect, the reasons for which are stated above.  This at the very least should make you reconsider your approach with this doctor and when dealing with a new health provider.  

 


Every other person I have showed the letter to (in hopes of editing to make it better), apart from this board, believes it was appropriate and educational, and even a little too tame.  I find that interesting.  And actually, I don't know for sure that the letter wasn't educational for the doc.  I wasn't given a reason for my dismissal.

 

You believe there is no basis to the claim that the belief that forced premature retraction is appropriate puts non-retractable boys at risk?

 

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#99 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 05:43 PM
 
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Every other person I have showed the letter to (in hopes of editing to make it better), apart from this board, believes it was appropriate and educational, and even a little too tame.  I find that interesting.  And actually, I don't know for sure that the letter wasn't educational for the doc.  I wasn't given a reason for my dismissal.

 

You believe there is no basis to the claim that the belief that forced premature retraction is appropriate puts non-retractable boys at risk?

 


There is no evidence to the claim that forced premature retraction took place or was going to take place based on what was stated in this thread.  I can say this because you yourself admit that you, I, and health care providers can have different definitions of retraction, keeping in mind that you provided no specific instructions to your doctor other than saying "no retraction," which you admit is open to interpretation.  So, yes, I stick by my judgment call that you have no claim whatsoever.  Ultimately, all actions in this matter are up to you, but don't get mad if other people give you well intentioned advice, which you clearly don't want to hear.  Regarding, the appropriateness of your letters, many people on here, some of who are in healthcare and have experience dealing with these type of complaints, have provided you with some very good pointers on what to do.  Again, whether you take their advice is up to you, but at the very least, I was reconsider all of this very carefully.  

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#100 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 06:47 PM
 
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I have to say, I am quite surprised at the responses telling Perogi that she should not procede with this action.

 

Members of the forum have been all over supporting the parents and child when a retraction has happened.  In this case, we have an educated parent who refused to allow retraction to take place to view the urethral meatus (a completely unnecessary thing to view in absence of any medical indication).  We have a parent who is interested in sharing education respectfully with a doctor, a doctor who has dismissed the patient consequently and a mother who wishes to inform others in the medical community that this doctor is not intact friendly, thus putting other boys at risk. 

 

When we have the opportunity to educate a potential parent or a pregnant mother/father, we do.  We don't wait until a mother has circumcised a son to tell her that it has negative effects for the boyif it can be shared with her before hand.  I understand the mission of this forum is to educate parents on the effects of circumcision so they can be informed and keep their son's whole penis intact and to keep their intact penis safe from harm from medical ignorance.  This mother's goal is to help protect other babies.  She's educated enough to protect her own son but her former doctor is NOT educated enough to protect those entrusted to her care.  Thank you Perogi for taking the time and caring enough to do this!  I think you will find that Doctors Opposing Circumcision will be in suppport of your further contact and efforts.

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I have to say, I am quite surprised at the responses telling Perogi that she should not procede with this action.

 

Members of the forum have been all over supporting the parents and child when a retraction has happened.  In this case, we have an educated parent who refused to allow retraction to take place to view the urethral meatus (a completely unnecessary thing to view in absence of any medical indication).  We have a parent who is interested in sharing education respectfully with a doctor, a doctor who has dismissed the patient consequently and a mother who wishes to inform others in the medical community that this doctor is not intact friendly, thus putting other boys at risk. 

 

When we have the opportunity to educate a potential parent or a pregnant mother/father, we do.  We don't wait until a mother has circumcised a son to tell her that it has negative effects for the boyif it can be shared with her before hand.  I understand the mission of this forum is to educate parents on the effects of circumcision so they can be informed and keep their son's whole penis intact and to keep their intact penis safe from harm from medical ignorance.  This mother's goal is to help protect other babies.  She's educated enough to protect her own son but her former doctor is NOT educated enough to protect those entrusted to her care.  Thank you Perogi for taking the time and caring enough to do this!  I think you will find that Doctors Opposing Circumcision will be in suppport of your further contact and efforts.


It's a little nauseating to me that those of us who don't agree with her actions are essentially being scolded for not agreeing. Many of us are clearly of the opinion that the OP was out of line and somehow that's been equated with "causing trouble". 

 


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#102 of 115 Old 08-14-2011, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post




TWWS wave.gifflowersforyou.gif

 

 



If anyone has any questions about proper care of the intact penis, or infections, or head-exploding worry, this forum is the place to be!  Nice ladies and gents here, most of us.

 

If you're having problems relaxing, I've heard diazepam works wonders.  Maybe you should ask your doc?

 

Don't worry, I am sure that your ped's advice is fine.  Then again, a savvy parent might consider double-checking anything they feel is questionable.

 

 

 

Is diazepam a topical treatment?  If so, do I apply when the glans is red?  Or just periodically?
 

 

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#103 of 115 Old 08-15-2011, 01:11 AM
 
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Talk about over reacting!  I wouldn't even worry about getting an attorney..... this incident is not even important enough for that.  I do understand that the doctor might "let you go", and why not?  It's best for both of you under the circumstances.  Some of the people will probably be laughing at your letter if they don't believe you have a substantial claim, and no one is going to hire an attorney or sue anyone over a letter like this unless the letter was threatening legal action (and it wasn't really).  I would just take all the other posts with a grain of salt, and know you did the best thing for your children.  So what you went a step further..... so what?  If a parent thinks there is something important enough to report, so be it.  I would bet they get various letters from patients all the time.  I would save yourself any further headaches, and just move on, but stay true to your beliefs!

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Is diazepam a topical treatment?  If so, do I apply when the glans is red?  Or just periodically?
 

 


Diazepam is a tranquilizer not for children!

 

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OP: sorry, I've never been successful on this site trying to quote, but I wanted to get back and answer your question re: DH and his thoughts on retraction.  He agrees that retraction is a bad idea and that there is basically "no reason to mess" with the foreskin on an unretracted infant/child unless there is some sort of problem with it/the penis in that area that requires closer, very careful, inspection.  That said, he also agrees that handling the foreskin/penis is NOT retraction and that if he feels it is needed, he is able to almost always get a view of what he needs to see (I only have girls, so not sure what that exactly IS or when such a closer view would be indicated) by holding the penis and foreskin without pulling it back.  He also agreed that hypospadis does not always cause the type of urine stream differences and that it is not out of line to want to take a look for that.

 

Also, I didn 't mean that I think it is suit-worthy that you wrote your letter to the doctor and her office.  That is your right, to complain (or whatever a better word for that would be-- I only have like 2 minutes to write before all 3 kids want me at once) to the doctor about care specifically related to you and your child.  I think it would be suit-worthy to go beyond that for THIS incident (there are certainly incidents that I would agree with 10000%) by writing to any credentialing board/licensing board or hospital where the dr or the practice has privledges.  Those actions can have far reaching implications and the damage that could be done to the doctor's career FAR outweighs the "damage" here.

 

Your point was made.  You and the doctor aren't a good match.  They "fired" you early in the process and while that may seem to be overkill to you, it was probably a decision based on longer relationships that started in similar ways and were a big issue at some point.  Consider the situation (what happned in the office visit, what you'd do to avoid the same thing in the future by being more clear with a different doctor, etc.) and the reaction to it (if there is any way you'd handle yourself differently if you had another concern/difference of opinion with the next doctor (maybe there isn't anything you'd do differently) and move on.  A letter to a credentialing board can lead to problems getting malpractice insurance for YEARS and YEARS and I personally think that it is suit worthy if that happens (or even worse, the doctor loses privledges at a hospital, or her practice does, etc.) based on the non-damage of this incident.

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I have to say, I am quite surprised at the responses telling Perogi that she should not procede with this action.

 

Members of the forum have been all over supporting the parents and child when a retraction has happened.  In this case, we have an educated parent who refused to allow retraction to take place to view the urethral meatus (a completely unnecessary thing to view in absence of any medical indication).  We have a parent who is interested in sharing education respectfully with a doctor, a doctor who has dismissed the patient consequently and a mother who wishes to inform others in the medical community that this doctor is not intact friendly, thus putting other boys at risk. 

 

When we have the opportunity to educate a potential parent or a pregnant mother/father, we do.  We don't wait until a mother has circumcised a son to tell her that it has negative effects for the boyif it can be shared with her before hand.  I understand the mission of this forum is to educate parents on the effects of circumcision so they can be informed and keep their son's whole penis intact and to keep their intact penis safe from harm from medical ignorance.  This mother's goal is to help protect other babies.  She's educated enough to protect her own son but her former doctor is NOT educated enough to protect those entrusted to her care.  Thank you Perogi for taking the time and caring enough to do this!  I think you will find that Doctors Opposing Circumcision will be in suppport of your further contact and efforts.



This.


I've been reading this thread from it's start and I too was surprised at the way things turned. Last month at my DS's 12 month visit the Ped attempted to visualize the tip of his glands and I was so surprised I had no idea what to do. It was a mix of wanting to yell 'no!' and cover his penis with my hand and grab him from her...all in about 3 seconds. So I can totally see how fast all the events OP described happening ocured. This was after searching for a intact friendly doc and after going to several appointments with no retraction. I was blind sighted. OP, fwiw, I think you are fine in your response. I dont think you are going to have lawyers pounding at your door. I've written a letter to a hospital concerning a situation in which a doctor was much more of a danger to patients (and involving the death of a child) and there was no action done by the hospital. The doctor, as far as I've been told, doesn't even know a letter was written about him. I only wish the concerns of patients were taken as seriously as others here feel they were. Anwyay, good job for sticking up for ALL the little intact guys out there! thumb.gif

 

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It's a little nauseating to me that those of us who don't agree with her actions are essentially being scolded for not agreeing. Many of us are clearly of the opinion that the OP was out of line and somehow that's been equated with "causing trouble". 

 

Some posts to this thread are stemming from trolling via another site, posting to be antagonistic and adversarial. Giving advice to the OP about her letter and her handling of the situation is not at all "causing trouble". It is the way you post it. I am sure this discussion would have turned out very differently had some of responses been more respectful and understanding of the OPs intention to not only address what happened to her but to advocate for other parents and children who might be seen by this doctor. I am sure some of the caution and concern expressed by some of you is very valid. Deliver it kindly and politely with suggestions and advice without attacks and sarcasm. I am reopening this for discussion but with a warning that any further adversarial or trolling posting may result in membership suspension or closure. 

 

I am also moving it to Intactivism, a more fitting forum for the topic. 


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#109 of 115 Old 08-28-2011, 07:41 PM
 
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I'm interested to know if the OP sent her letter to the hospital or if she just ended the whole situation.

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#110 of 115 Old 08-30-2011, 02:21 PM
 
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This idea that the doctor is somehow immune from input or that patient rights are not a fit subject for feedback seems counterproductive.

 

Doctors need to know how people feel, what they are doing wrong and how to fix it, preferably without a malpractice suit or a complaint to their certifying board. If the doctor is not open to input then sometimes pursuing the matter further is necessary. Pirogi's letter was gentle and informative and the doctor should have been grateful.

 

I had a surgery scheduled on my knee, the surgeon was very gruff and wanted to spend as little time in pre-op consult as possible. So I took my paperwork to my GP and had hom go over it. The tendon sheath the surgeon intended to work on does not exist. There was a predictable go around wherein several doctors could not agree, an anatomist was consulted and what do you know, the doctor had performed many surgeries that year on the wrong tendon. I compiled all of my notes and reports and wrote a nice letter. To which the surgeon replied nastily and threatening a lawsuit, so I turned it over to my attorney, the surgeon faced and failed a board review lost his practice to the resulting slew of lawsuits.

 

He should have taken the letter as the kindness it was.

 

Pirogi has done this doctor a great service because whatever they said defensively, there will undoubtedly be more care given to future handling of uncirc'd patients, and if this saves one child from unneeded pain, a resulting infection, or the doctor from a lawsuit, it was a lesson learned cheaply.

 

I myself have no tolerance anymore, any procedure that does not meet the standard of informed consent in my eyes will result in a range of letters at the least and a law enforcement intervention at worst. I would have settled for nothing less than a signed statement that the doctor will never attempt to retract another foreskin, ever.

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#111 of 115 Old 08-30-2011, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ieatcheese View Post

This idea that the doctor is somehow immune from input or that patient rights are not a fit subject for feedback seems counterproductive.

 

Doctors need to know how people feel, what they are doing wrong and how to fix it, preferably without a malpractice suit or a complaint to their certifying board. If the doctor is not open to input then sometimes pursuing the matter further is necessary. Pirogi's letter was gentle and informative and the doctor should have been grateful.

 

I had a surgery scheduled on my knee, the surgeon was very gruff and wanted to spend as little time in pre-op consult as possible. So I took my paperwork to my GP and had hom go over it. The tendon sheath the surgeon intended to work on does not exist. There was a predictable go around wherein several doctors could not agree, an anatomist was consulted and what do you know, the doctor had performed many surgeries that year on the wrong tendon. I compiled all of my notes and reports and wrote a nice letter. To which the surgeon replied nastily and threatening a lawsuit, so I turned it over to my attorney, the surgeon faced and failed a board review lost his practice to the resulting slew of lawsuits.

 

He should have taken the letter as the kindness it was.

 

Pirogi has done this doctor a great service because whatever they said defensively, there will undoubtedly be more care given to future handling of uncirc'd patients, and if this saves one child from unneeded pain, a resulting infection, or the doctor from a lawsuit, it was a lesson learned cheaply.

 

I myself have no tolerance anymore, any procedure that does not meet the standard of informed consent in my eyes will result in a range of letters at the least and a law enforcement intervention at worst. I would have settled for nothing less than a signed statement that the doctor will never attempt to retract another foreskin, ever.


Despite the fact that there was no retraction or attempted retraction.  

 

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#112 of 115 Old 08-31-2011, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have not and will not send any other letters besides the one I gave the doc and the office manager.  

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#113 of 115 Old 09-01-2011, 11:49 AM
 
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I had a doctor try to give me a medication that has a lethal interaction to a medication I take, after much protesting he finally relented, shortly after the nurse came in and tried to administer the same medication, if I had been asleep or allowed the doctor to argue me down the results would have been catastrophic. So of course I wrote a letter to prevent a recurrence.

 

similarly, pirogi prevented a problem only by repeated effort. The fact is once pirogi sadi "no retraction" the first time consent had been withdrawn and the doctor had no more right to do so than a stranger in wal mart. An attempt to continue with a procedure after consent has been withdrawn is more than ample cause to write a letter.

 

Consent and specifically informed consent is a vital component of the doctor patient relationship.

 

An MD in my home town left performed a minor procedure on a child. (something involving the frenulum) but the mom at the last minute said, "no stop, don't" The MD took it for nerves and snipped anyway. When the matter reached the local DA and Judge the MD was given 2 options. Sign an agreement stating that they would never perform said procedure again or face a trial and due to the lack of consent the fact that it occured in a doctor's office or that the defendant was an MD would not be allowed into evidence, just that he had cut into a childs penis while the parent protested. He signed the agreement.

 

A letter is a gentle way to help a doctor who in Pirogi's case attempted tp perform  a procedure a couple of times after consent was revoked.

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#114 of 115 Old 09-02-2011, 06:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatcheese View Post

similarly, pirogi prevented a problem only by repeated effort. The fact is once pirogi sadi "no retraction" the first time consent had been withdrawn and the doctor had no more right to do so than a stranger in wal mart. An attempt to continue with a procedure after consent has been withdrawn is more than ample cause to write a letter.

....

 

A letter is a gentle way to help a doctor who in Pirogi's case attempted tp perform  a procedure a couple of times after consent was revoked.


Thank you, ieatcheese. Your story and your well-written post shed some light on why someone would write a letter even if no retraction had occurred at their visit.

 

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#115 of 115 Old 09-02-2011, 07:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post

So they specifically mention "surgical gloves" not "sterile gloves," but surgical gloves are sterile I believe, no?


"Exam gloves," which would typically be used in a doctor's office, come in a box of 100 or so and are not sterile, but are presumed to be clean, and act as a barrier. "Surgical gloves," the kind actually used for surgery, are typically thicker and unlike exam gloves they come in sizes so they are snug-fitting, ARE sterile (as long as the package is not damaged), come in individual packets of two gloves, and there is a certain method to putting them on so that you don't contaminate the business end. It would be highly unusual for sterile surgical gloves to be used during an examination.

This is rather a moot point to the discussion now, but I just thought I'd put it out there since you seemed curious.

 

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