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#1 of 39 Old 06-23-2011, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Any other yidden in the house? Mazel tov! Hoping we can discuss holidays, customs, superstitions and other Jewish related pregnancy and birthing info. :)


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#2 of 39 Old 06-23-2011, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course you are welcome here even if you aren't Jewish but would like to learn more or ask any questions!


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#3 of 39 Old 06-25-2011, 06:53 AM
 
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Yes, I am. This is a great thread.
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#4 of 39 Old 06-25-2011, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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oooh, great!

 

I started another thread like this a couple of years ago when I was pg with my littliest. It was very fun to talk about the holidays together. The fast days, etc...

 

I realize there is a pretty wide spectrum, so I'm going to state right now that I'm an orthodox Jew living in Israel...we might be considered "modern orthodox." For example, I cover my hair with scarves and not wigs...for those for which that means something. :)

 

B'sha'ah tova to all the expecting mommies!


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#5 of 39 Old 06-25-2011, 04:21 PM
 
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We are in between reform and conservative. attend a reform congregation. would love to hear more about Israel. One day maybe visit.
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#6 of 39 Old 06-26-2011, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You should absolutely visit! AND you should move here.

 

Israel is a beautiful place. It is said that every part of the world is represented here, as far as climate and topography. We've got the snow capped mountains of the Golan, the lush, green Galilee (Galil), The Medeterianian coastal cities with their beaches and water ports, The Desert and the deep desert. It's truly amazing. The only thing I wish we had a bit more of was WATER. Well, and peace of course.

 

The people are very driven and motivated, you have to be as you are building a country and rebuilding a Peoplehood and Nationhood from the ground up, and though we don't all get along (not even close), I know that if I needed help I could knock on just about any door of a Jewish home and it's right there waiting for me.

 

What else would you like to know? :)


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#7 of 39 Old 07-01-2011, 03:25 PM
 
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Hello, I just thought I'd pop in. I'm not Jewish however my husband and all of his family is.

I realize that this doesn't make my children Jewish, however we don't want to keep from them the culture, the traditions that DH grew up with just because of that.

My DD is 10 month. My MIL is talking about doing a baby naming on her 1st birthday which I think is incredibly special... she's just having problems finding a rabbi who will do it because I'm not Jewish.

Anyway, pregnant with DC2 and intuit him to be a boy, which means circumcision... may I ask if you 2 have experienced any backlash from the no circumcision community?


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#8 of 39 Old 07-02-2011, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tree Rose, that is so wonderful that you want your children to maintain a connection to their father's Judaism. You are correct, though, in that your children are not "Jewish."

 

Doing a baby naming is very sweet! Did you want to give her a Hebrew name at the naming? There is no need for a Rabbi to do the naming because, as you mentioned, the children are not Jewish. Let me try to explain it this way, let's say I wanted to give my children a Native American name, because of my connection to Native American People, though they are not Native American. I could absolutely do that in a loving, respectful way, but would not have to have a Native American Tribal Cheif come in to perform the ceremony. :) I think that trying to find a Rabbi is a headache that really isn't necessary, a ceremony that you plan with your family can be much more intimate and special without creating unnessary formalities.

 

This of course brings me to the issue of a brit milah (religious circumcision). I want to ask this as delicately as possible...but, why would you do it? The circumcision is a very holy and powerful mitzvah (commandment) for the Jewish People. Your son (in the event that the baby is a boy, of course. :) ) is NOT a Jew. Therefore there is absolutely no reason that he should have a religious circumcision. As a matter of fact, it may actually be downright problematic for a non-Jew to have such a circumcision. If you choose to have a non-religious circumcision that, of course, is your choice, but it cannot be done for religious reasons according to Judaism. :/

 

Have you contacted your local Chabad? They are Torah Observent Jews that specifically open up their homes and synagogues, etc... to the community at large for all sorts of questions relating to situations that may or may not fit the "norm." I'm certain that they would be a welcoming and caring resource for you. I don't know where you are located (I assume in the USA), but www.chabad.org typically will turn up one in your area. PM me if you need further help.

 

But here is the more important question that comes to mind, and I hope you don't mind me asking it and G-d Forbid that it doesn't offend, but it seems that this is very important to you that your children be connected to Judaism...is it an option for you to convert?

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Hello, I just thought I'd pop in. I'm not Jewish however my husband and all of his family is.

I realize that this doesn't make my children Jewish, however we don't want to keep from them the culture, the traditions that DH grew up with just because of that.

My DD is 10 month. My MIL is talking about doing a baby naming on her 1st birthday which I think is incredibly special... she's just having problems finding a rabbi who will do it because I'm not Jewish.

Anyway, pregnant with DC2 and intuit him to be a boy, which means circumcision... may I ask if you 2 have experienced any backlash from the no circumcision community?



 


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#9 of 39 Old 07-05-2011, 07:25 PM
 
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TreeRose, you may be able to find a sympathetic rabbi at a Reform synagogue in your area. Do you and your husband have a relationship with a local temple? That can help, too.

I have ignored the anti-circumcision folks. They have their own point of view, but not only is circumcision a tradition, it is healthier for the child. Do what you think is best, and good luck!

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#10 of 39 Old 07-09-2011, 11:14 AM
 
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Not Jewish but you should check out:

http://jewsagainstcircumcision.com/


Mindie, wife to Mark, not-so-crunchy mom to Dylan (4/04); Devon (6/06); Dorothy (9/07); Derek (12/19/09); Daniel (12/18/10); Newbie D (2/22/12)

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#11 of 39 Old 07-15-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course the above link is completely unacceptable to religious Jews. Brit Milah is a Mitzvah and there is no question that it must be performed...but only when the child is Jewish. In the case of a non-Jewish child, I would advise the parent to make the best decision for them, being certain to look at all of the very valuable and respectable anti-circumcision information out there, of which the above link is absolutely not one.

 

If I did not have a religious commandment to do this, I would NEVER do this. My reasons would align with many that the lactivists offer elsewhere on the mothering boards and in other resources. It is absolutely legitimate to question non-religious circumcision and one does not have to attack or attach any religious information to it to do so. The information is out there and it is good without referencing a group of people who do not fully understand the religious significance to try and make an religious argument against it.

 

If one wishes to steer someone to some good information about reasons to avoid NON-RELIGIOUS circumcision, there are many wonderful options.


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#12 of 39 Old 07-15-2011, 10:08 AM
 
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Not circumcising is unacceptable to orthodox Jews but there is a movement among Reform Jews (many of whom are highly religious) to perform symbolic rather than physical circumcision.  There's a thoughtful discussion that might be a good starting point in _The New Jewish Baby Book_ by Anita Diamant.  (I don't know yet what we'll do if we have a boy and I have valued the pages devoted to thinking that through in Diamant's book). 

 

There is also a section in the book about namings and some lovely text if you decide to create your own naming ceremony.

 

Also,  I agree with Lrothnwu that there are many reform rabbis that welcome families where only one parent is Jewish.  As a child of one born Jewish parent and one convert (who converted after my Bat Mitzvah) I have always felt nurtured and welcomed within the Reform Jewish community.  You could check out the Union for Reform Judaism (URJ) to find temples near you and consider talking with the rabbis at those temples if this is a direction you are interested in pursuing.


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#13 of 39 Old 07-15-2011, 06:34 PM
 
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Good points, parsley. I am Jewish and my husband is not and we have also been welcomed at Conservative synagogues, JCCs and Hebrew day schools as well. There also seems to be a bit less concern about which parent is Jewish than there once was.

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#14 of 39 Old 07-16-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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I appreciate everyone's responses. Thank you. We will move forward carefully and delicately as I see now that it is a heated issue for the more orthodox Jews (my not being Jewish). However, I think that not exposing our children to Judaism because I'm not Jewish would be shameful as they have a right to know how their father and his entire family lineage was raised.

 

Thanks again, all.


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#15 of 39 Old 07-18-2011, 08:03 AM
 
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TreeRose, you may be able to find a sympathetic rabbi at a Reform synagogue in your area. Do you and your husband have a relationship with a local temple? That can help, too.

I have ignored the anti-circumcision folks. They have their own point of view, but not only is circumcision a tradition, it is healthier for the child. Do what you think is best, and good luck!


Upon what evidence are you concluding that it is "healthier for the child?"  I am curious and mean my question kindly. 

 


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#16 of 39 Old 08-01-2011, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You should be welcomed at any synagogue and so would Tree Rose! The question is, would Tree Rose be welcomed as a Jew or as a treasured and holy non-Jew. Halacha necessitates the latter. As for you, Irothnwu, you ARE Jewish and so are your children, 100%. Your husband should be welcomed and treasured as the father of Jewish children and a treasured non-Jewish person.

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Good points, parsley. I am Jewish and my husband is not and we have also been welcomed at Conservative synagogues, JCCs and Hebrew day schools as well. There also seems to be a bit less concern about which parent is Jewish than there once was.



 


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#17 of 39 Old 08-01-2011, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ps, and Jewish law has never changed on this point...what has changed is some groups of Jews (and non-jews) who have decided that they will no longer adhere to Jewish Law (Halacha). They have many very good and viable reasons for doing so. The issue of accepting a Jewish father and a non-jewish mother as having Jewish children was made because of the reality of Assimilation among American Jews. The belief claimed by these movements was that if they don't "bend" or "throw out" Jewish Law, there will no longer be any Jewish People, so it is "required" to accept non-Jews as Jews in order to continue the race, ethnicity, religion, culture, etc... of the Jewish People. When you say that there is less concern about which parent is Jewish, this is absolutely not the case. There never was a concern because Jewish Law is very clear and well established for thousands of years about what constitutes a Jewish Person. The question is among the movements which have gained enormous followings about which parts of Jewish Law to "pick and choose" to keep people loosly adhered to Judaism.

 

Another great example of this is the "Messianic Jewish" movement (one of which is well known by the name "Jews for Jesus"). Even though the word Jewish is used, it doesn't mean that this is Judaism. Contrary to what Messianic "Judaism" claims, a Jew can not both be a Jew and practice Christanity (or Christian beliefs). Again, there is very clear Jewish law about this. Future generations are actually no longer considered Jewish after practicing these other religions.


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#18 of 39 Old 08-02-2011, 02:28 PM
 
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Hildare, pretty much any reputable health site that is not specifically anti-circumcision will inform you of the health benefits of circumcision, such as the CDC - http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm. This link talks about reduced HIV transmission, chlamidya, urinary tract infections and penile cancers. I have no idea why the natural birthing community has anything to do with anti-circumcision hysteria, which just makes people think we're crazy. Women have been birthing their babies naturally for millions of years -- they have also been getting them circumcised (at least Jewish moms like me!) The research is pretty straightforward.

As for jul511riv, I would hope TreeRose's family and mine would be treated the same way, and not so judgmentally. I also hope she has not felt driven off this thread by an unnecessary debate about the status of her family, which is completely an issue to be discussed between her family and any rabbi that wishes to welcome them.

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#19 of 39 Old 08-02-2011, 03:08 PM
 
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Hildare, pretty much any reputable health site that is not specifically anti-circumcision will inform you of the health benefits of circumcision, such as the CDC - http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm. This link talks about reduced HIV transmission, chlamidya, urinary tract infections and penile cancers. I have no idea why the natural birthing community has anything to do with anti-circumcision hysteria, which just makes people think we're crazy. Women have been birthing their babies naturally for millions of years -- they have also been getting them circumcised (at least Jewish moms like me!)


Not to completely de-rail this thread but you won't find any medical organization out there that recommends circ... except for the CDC. The three African studies they base their stance on are flawed. The AMA, the AAP and many others say no to this cosmetic surgery.

My husband was raised Reform Jewish and we are raising our kids agnostic. My husband was happy to leave his son intact, even if my in-laws weren't. And as far as the natural childbirth angle.. why avoid drugs and eat healthy for nine months, have a natural drug free birth and plan to breastfeed.. if the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood? Makes no sense whatsoever. We are meant as mothers, to protect our children from harm and circumcision causes harm.
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#20 of 39 Old 08-03-2011, 04:02 PM
 
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"If the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood?" Noo, you're not derailing the thread at all. I guess you must be opposed to all blood testing on your children, then, because they take far more blood from a child than a circumcision, which is done after eight days in Jewish tradition, by the way. Have you ever seen a circumcision done? It's not "cosmetic" and it's not bloody.

And your judgmental attitude is not appreciated. This is an individual decision for every family, and I'd expect more respect on this site and this thread, in particular.

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"If the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood?" Noo, you're not derailing the thread at all. I guess you must be opposed to all blood testing on your children, then, because they take far more blood from a child than a circumcision, which is done after eight days in Jewish tradition, by the way. Have you ever seen a circumcision done? It's not "cosmetic" and it's not bloody.

And your judgmental attitude is not appreciated. This is an individual decision for every family, and I'd expect more respect on this site and this thread, in particular.


I see you are new here.. welcome to MDC. That said, we have strong forum called The Case Against Circumcision. Many moms here leave their sons intact!joy.gif
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#22 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Philomom, you are correct that the medical reasons for performing circumcision are spotty at best. And, if I understand you correctly, you are not Jewish, therefore are not required to circumcise your children, EVEN IF their father was raised Reform Jewish. Furthermore, you have made an active decision to not raise your children Jewish but instead as agnostics (which, actually doesn't address the issue of Judaism as something beyond a religion, which it is. It's an ethnicity, it's a culture, language, race, religion, Tribe, etc...) Again, I have no problem with this because Halachic Judaism (Jewish Law) has no problem with this, as your children are not Jewish. They may have a Jewish father, but they are not Jews and therefore, unless they choose this life for themselves as adults or you choose this life for yourself by converting yourself and them and then practicing Judaism, there is no need for any argument or discussion. Circumcision, for you, is a matter of the medical and not the religious (unless you are are one of the certain branches of Muslim faith that also requires circumcision, which you've already stated that you are not), in which case I would tend to agree with you. THere is no medical reason to do this. And all sorts of reasons (medical and otherwise) against doing this, so your choice seems like a good, compassionate, well-informed and sound one. I'm sorry your in-laws were not more supportive. In laws can be very VERY difficult (I speak with empathy. :) )

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Not to completely de-rail this thread but you won't find any medical organization out there that recommends circ... except for the CDC. The three African studies they base their stance on are flawed. The AMA, the AAP and many others say no to this cosmetic surgery.

My husband was raised Reform Jewish and we are raising our kids agnostic. My husband was happy to leave his son intact, even if my in-laws weren't. And as far as the natural childbirth angle.. why avoid drugs and eat healthy for nine months, have a natural drug free birth and plan to breastfeed.. if the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood? Makes no sense whatsoever. We are meant as mothers, to protect our children from harm and circumcision causes harm.


 


Irothnwu, You are correct that this comment about spilling innocent blood is completely out of line on a Jewish Thread. You are also correct that more blood is taken from a newborn in blood testing than in a Jewish circumcision. You are also correct that a circumcision performed on the 8th day is quite a different matter than many ric (routine infant circs) performed within the first 3 days in a hospital. It is different from a Vit K standpoint (clotting factor) and health stand point. Also they are performed entirely differently. All correct. You are also correct that this anti-ric talk has no place here because there is no conversation taking place about RIC on this thread. This is a religious circumcision, which is another matter entirely.
 

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"If the first thing you do to the innocent is spill his blood?" Noo, you're not derailing the thread at all. I guess you must be opposed to all blood testing on your children, then, because they take far more blood from a child than a circumcision, which is done after eight days in Jewish tradition, by the way. Have you ever seen a circumcision done? It's not "cosmetic" and it's not bloody.

And your judgmental attitude is not appreciated. This is an individual decision for every family, and I'd expect more respect on this site and this thread, in particular.



Au Contrare, Philomom...those who have been around these parts (Mothering) for a very long time know quite well that while MDC is AGAINST RIC...there has been extreme measures taken to avoid taking a position against religious circumcision. The Case Against Circumcision is SPECIFICALLY for RIC and it is forbidden to attack people for circumcision based on religious belief.

 

Many moms DO leave their sons intact here at MDC. This is wonderful and I support it. I'm a big lactivist. I do not believe in RIC for all of the reasons on that forum and more and I support you and your decision and your cause for likely all of the same reasons...that being said, and I realize that this is a very VERY difficult point to understand, but religious circumcision is NOT the same thing as RIC. Not in the slightest. Though it seems that it should be, since both involve cutting babies, both involve all of the issues that that brings...it is still not the same thing.

 

Your position, while absolutely wonderful regarding RIC and your own decision not to RIC your own son, is completely invalid and inappropriate on a thread of this nature. There is no place for it here and there is no parellel. If you would like to change mothering's rules regarding their policy on religious circumcision, I recommend that you write to them or perhaps begin a petition to try and make RIC and religious circumcision one and the same on the boards. I should mention that I would be absolutely against that, of course, but you are free to proceed as you see fit.

 

In the meanwhile, I WILL NOT tolerate and (neither will Mothering) attacks on religious circumsicion. It violates the rules here.



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I see you are new here.. welcome to MDC. That said, we have strong forum called The Case Against Circumcision. Many moms here leave their sons intact!joy.gif


 


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#23 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 06:55 AM
 
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Independent of the discussion about circumcision, jul511riv, I think you are violating the user agreement by asserting your own interpretation of Judaism as the only legitimate interpretation of Judaism.  You have indirectly suggested that I am not Jewish, that Philomom's family is not Jewish, and implied that Treemom’s family would not be Jewish. 

Your implication that Reform Jewish, Reconstructionist and perhaps Conservative sects of Judaisam are analogous to Jews for Jesus in that they use the term Jewish but don’t follow Jewish law is specious, exclusionary and unacceptable.  And, a clear violation of the user agreement which states that users may not “submit content that discriminates on the basis of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability.” 

 

You are presenting a version of Judaism that you embrace.  That is fine.  But it is not the only version of Judaism and it is totally unacceptable for you to repeatedly assert that it is the only LEGITIMATE version of Judaism. 

 

Reform Judaism, for example, places emphasis on individual Jews learning Torah and commentary, engaging in debate and struggling with religious texts and religious practices.  It encourages each individual to learn about Jewish laws and practices and struggle with the decisions of how to best fulfill the commandments.  Following Hillel, we are taught to treat others as we would wish to be treated and that “all the rest are commentary.” It is the obligation of ALL Jews, of all sects, to fulfill the obligation to treat others as we would wish to be treated.  It is a mitzvah to learn the commentary and struggle with the dilemmas it poses. 

 

I hold therefore, and in good company, that it is your obligation and my own to struggle with the conflicted ethical obligations raised by circumcision.  The commandment is given in Genesis and is part of the covenant of Abraham and g-d.  This is a weighty obligation.  Yet, Judaism, as I interpret it, does not allow the blind obedience of commandments but requires the questioning and struggling with them—it is my obligation as a Jew to determine if the obligation to protect innocence and do no harm weighs more heavily than the commandment to circumcise.  I do not propose that I can answer the question for anyone else.  But, I believe—as part of my religion—that it is my ethical, moral and religious obligation to study and reflect on what is the right choice. 

 

I would appreciate no further condemnation of my religious beliefs in this thread.   Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion which thrives on diversity of opinions and interpretations (hence the fact that there are so many commentary).  There is no one authority that can speak for all of Judaism and I would thank you, jul511riv, to cease acting as the authority.  I welcome your opinions and thoughts, but please state them as such in future messages. 


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... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.


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#25 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The mod policy DOES back that part up. As do I, as you will see from my post. It is going beyond that that is not supported.

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... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.



 


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#26 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 08:06 AM
 
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The sanctimoniousness on this thread is thick enough to cut with a knife. Enough people! There are enough interpretations of Judaism to fill a library. Most of them disagree with each other, but that is the nature of Judaism - we like to disagree. What works for one person as a belief system is not what works for other families as a belief system. Lets all try to remember that as we struggle to find the right answers for our families. Jul511riv, despite the sanctimoniousness, makes some good points regarding circumcision - religious circumcision is an entirely different issue than routine infant circumcision. Thus, if your family is Jewish, but not completely traditionally "halachically" Jewish in the strictest interpretation of the law, then it may make sense for your sons to remain intact, or to do a Brit Shalom (which is spritual circumcision but not physical circumcision). Is this the right path for all mixed-religion families in the Conservative/Reform communities? Of course not! There is no right answer for every family. But I think the point that Jul511riv was trying to make is that its 100% OK to leave a son intact if your Jewish identity does not tend to revolve around strict following of the commandments in the Torah.This is a valuable point. I don't agree with the rest of her diatribe on who is Jewish and who is not (as even though I may agree with some of her points, I don't appreciate the attitude, as I don't perport to be able to speak for anyone but myself). Lets keep in mind that this is a Jewish thread - so please be respectful of the Jewish views on circumcision. But lets also please be respectful of all branches of Judaism. There are so few of us on MDC it would be a shame to have a rift.

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#27 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Parsley,

 

Your religion has never been attacked. I have asserted that Jewish Law is completely clear about certain issues and for that there is no question. Notice I did not state ANYTHING about your religion.

 

As for Hillel, the principle was "do not do that onto others which is hateful to you". Christianity has the "Golden Rule" of "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

 

And for the record, the ascertation that Orthodox Judaism blindly accepts laws without question is certainly a falsehood, which I am happy to correct. Many Orthodox Jews struggle with Jewish Law and therefore are encouraged to study, CONTINUALLY, with experts in Jewish Law until the understanding of the law becomes clear for them. This would be as opposed to saying "I don't agree with it..do you? No. Okay, let's chuck it out. It must be wrong." Or even taking Rabbi's words out of context to support an argument that a rabbi would have never agreed to. In Jewish Law we must struggle with the issues IN THE CONTEXT OF JEWISH LAW. That is the basis of the Judaism that contains thousands of years of history.

 

You are correct that Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion...yes, even in the context of following Jewish Law.

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Independent of the discussion about circumcision, jul511riv, I think you are violating the user agreement by asserting your own interpretation of Judaism as the only legitimate interpretation of Judaism.  You have indirectly suggested that I am not Jewish, that Philomom's family is not Jewish, and implied that Treemom’s family would not be Jewish. 

Your implication that Reform Jewish, Reconstructionist and perhaps Conservative sects of Judaisam are analogous to Jews for Jesus in that they use the term Jewish but don’t follow Jewish law is specious, exclusionary and unacceptable.  And, a clear violation of the user agreement which states that users may not “submit content that discriminates on the basis of age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, race, religion or disability.” 

 

You are presenting a version of Judaism that you embrace.  That is fine.  But it is not the only version of Judaism and it is totally unacceptable for you to repeatedly assert that it is the only LEGITIMATE version of Judaism. 

 

Reform Judaism, for example, places emphasis on individual Jews learning Torah and commentary, engaging in debate and struggling with religious texts and religious practices.  It encourages each individual to learn about Jewish laws and practices and struggle with the decisions of how to best fulfill the commandments.  Following Hillel, we are taught to treat others as we would wish to be treated and that “all the rest are commentary.” It is the obligation of ALL Jews, of all sects, to fulfill the obligation to treat others as we would wish to be treated.  It is a mitzvah to learn the commentary and struggle with the dilemmas it poses. 

 

I hold therefore, and in good company, that it is your obligation and my own to struggle with the conflicted ethical obligations raised by circumcision.  The commandment is given in Genesis and is part of the covenant of Abraham and g-d.  This is a weighty obligation.  Yet, Judaism, as I interpret it, does not allow the blind obedience of commandments but requires the questioning and struggling with them—it is my obligation as a Jew to determine if the obligation to protect innocence and do no harm weighs more heavily than the commandment to circumcise.  I do not propose that I can answer the question for anyone else.  But, I believe—as part of my religion—that it is my ethical, moral and religious obligation to study and reflect on what is the right choice. 

 

I would appreciate no further condemnation of my religious beliefs in this thread.   Judaism is a diverse and vibrant religion which thrives on diversity of opinions and interpretations (hence the fact that there are so many commentary).  There is no one authority that can speak for all of Judaism and I would thank you, jul511riv, to cease acting as the authority.  I welcome your opinions and thoughts, but please state them as such in future messages. 



 


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#28 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 08:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

... and i am not jewish so i don't have a dog in this fight BUT my concern is that circumcision was broached initially not only from a religious standpoint but that a poster stated that it was medically preferable.  i call foul on that aspect of the conversation.  it's a completely different thing to do this (in my view) as part of the way that you interpret your religion but a whole nother thing when you say it's "cleaner" or "medically better" or whatever.  that i disagree with absolutely and i think that at least that part of the mod policy backs that up.


Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.
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#29 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No one said it was bloodless, though sometimes it is, which is why the Halacha requires one drop of blood to consider the brit complete. But again, as far as ric, you and I are in total agreement.

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Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.


 


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#30 of 39 Old 08-04-2011, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And since you know first hand about brit milah, you would be the first to know about the major differences between RIC and brit milah. :)

 

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Yep, that's what I was reacting to. .. the broad assertion that circ was somehow "better".

And to be clear, the Jewish circ is not magically bloodless.... I've got enough friends and in-laws that are Jewish now that I do know this first hand.


 


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