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#61 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:17 AM
 
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I have always found intact penises more attractive and pleasing sexually.  Women who think they are 'gross' are generally pretty closed minded and really don't know what they're missing.  Probably not the type of partner I'd want for my son anyway.


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#62 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:20 AM
 
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as jess said, intact men's penis's are actually nicer to be with. It helps to seal  the vagina while having intercourse leaving things much more lubricated,  The foreskin slides easily over the penile shaft making manipulation of the penis easier. The penis needs only be attended to as one would attend to ones own vulva and it is clean.  There are some women who don;t clean properly and some men who don't, even without a foreskin that can get nasty.

 

When I have changed the diapers of circ'd boys I want to cry to see their poor red, scarred penis tissue. When I saw a newborn with a fresh circ getting it's diaper changed, ow the pain of urine and feces on an open wound! How the poor little boy cried the way an un circ'd boy never did at a diaper change.

 

as for no pain during the circ, really? I'm glad your little boy didn't cry, but are you sure he wasn't in shock?? Many babies do go into shock form the intense amount of pain.

 

Here's the rundown of the procedure. they use a pair of those clamp things to take a hold of the foreskin and PINCH the skin, then they take something else insert it between the foreskin and penis and RIP the glands, they crush the foreskin then cut to lower the amount of blood. all in all it doesn't sound pain free.  The thought of someone doing that to my genitals makes me shudder and the idea of doing it to a brand new baby is horrifying.

 

It is entirely a cosmetic procedure and I think it is torture.

 

 


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#63 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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Well, it's deffinately a parents choice of what to do or not to do with their child. I wouldnt do it any different thats for sure!!!

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#64 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:31 AM
 
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I had a really hard time reading that pro-circ posting. Deep breaths! Deeeep cleansing breaths! Trying not to let my blood boil over. Hard to clean under the foreskin of an intact baby?!?!?! You're not supposed to retract a baby's foreskin! Yikes!

 

"Tons of teenage boys are having it done" I highly doubt that. Any intact man I've ever been with is perfectly content with the state of their penis. I know the circ rates are higher in the US than where I live, so maybe I have a narrow view on things.

The VAST majority in Canada that are now choosing to not circ their babies, so the circ'd boys are going to end up being the "different" ones. 

 

I could go on and on and on and on but I need to stop myself before I hyperventilate. All I can say is do a little research into the procedure and you'll see why many are now choosing not to have this barbaric procedure performed on their already perfect baby boys


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#65 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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I had a really hard time reading that pro-circ posting. Deep breaths! Deeeep cleansing breaths! Trying not to let my blood boil over. Hard to clean under the foreskin of an intact baby?!?!?! You're not supposed to retract a baby's foreskin! Yikes!

 

"Tons of teenage boys are having it done" I highly doubt that. Any intact man I've ever been with is perfectly content with the state of their penis. I know the circ rates are higher in the US than where I live, so maybe I have a narrow view on things.

The VAST majority in Canada that are now choosing to not circ their babies, so the circ'd boys are going to end up being the "different" ones. 

 

I could go on and on and on and on but I need to stop myself before I hyperventilate. All I can say is do a little research into the procedure and you'll see why many are now choosing not to have this barbaric procedure performed on their already perfect baby boys

Amen!!! I'm about to have an attack myself!!!! For the love of God!!! Do not retract a baby's foreskin or a child's for that matter!!!!!! Holy Dina! It is a self cleaning orrifice! When it is retractable, that is when one should pull back to clean...and that is once the child/teen can do it themselves. It is not cleaner to circ. It is not healthier to circ. Babies DO feel pain. There are so many things wrong with your argument. Circed men have more feeling, and women tend to enjoy sex more when there is less friction...hence the reason men have foreskins. If boys were meant to have that skin...they'd be born with it! HIV and Std's are not something a baby will have to deal with.
Please- stop retracting babies foreskins! It damages and scars them as well as hurts them. Please do some more research. As you can see, you will not make others see that circ is the right thing to do. The women here have done their research and know it's not needed and and that its a harmful surgery for a newborn.

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#66 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 10:15 AM
 
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Maybe it's best if we stop responding to the pro-circ posts that come from people with under 10 posts on MDC...seems to me there are some people showing up trying to cause strife in our, up till now, very happy DDC home!


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#67 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 10:26 AM
 
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I do agree with you, Zuzu:) I do like to respond somewhat in case there is someone on the fence and then they can see the response to the pro-circ argument. Anyway....I'll get off my soap box;) xoxo

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#68 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 10:42 AM
 
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Yes I was noticing a pattern of these posters having less than 10 posts. I agree: ignore.

 

I don't know the sex of my baby yet (gloomy.gif due to needing to reschedule my ultrasound) but boy or girl, we won't be performing cosmetic elective surgery on its genitals. Both my husband and I believe strongly in this. His family is very pro circ and have already told us we MUST do it if we have a son. My mom is opposed to it and supports our choice, and I have never discussed it with my dad. We haven't really discussed our choice with his parents. I figure, if they ever change a diaper, they will find out. Since his dad cares the most and will never change one, I figure, its no concern of his what our child's genitals look like.

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#69 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 11:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tulafina View Post

I do agree with you, Zuzu:) I do like to respond somewhat in case there is someone on the fence and then they can see the response to the pro-circ argument. Anyway....I'll get off my soap box;) xoxo


yes this is why I try to respond even though I think  THEY are trolls.


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#70 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 11:21 AM
 
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http://www.naturalparenting.com.au/flex/circumcision-what-parents-need-to-know/97757/1

To the OP- here is a fantastic write up! Print it up and give it to hubby:)

Crunchy Mama to 3 boys bikenew.gif'06  and superhero.gif '08  h20homebirth.gif  and  moon.gif '10  uc.jpg

 

And a brand new baby  babygirl.gif born 4/12 uc.jpg

 

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#71 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 11:34 AM
 
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Oh, I love this article. But I liked yours, too.

http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html
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#72 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 12:02 PM
 
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Thanks Philomom!!! I love that you get to see the difference:) I know that my poor DH has suffered from issues since he was 15:( I so wish that MIL had left him whole. DH is the only cut partner I've been with and the difference is huge! He's starting to restore so I really hope that helps both of us.

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#73 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 12:14 PM
 
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Ugh - never mind. I let myself boil over a bit, and I'm probably in violation fo posting standards. That pro-circ drivel just made me see red.

 

I will say that, as far as "tons" of teenage boys going to get it done, that seems very unlikely. I've talked about this a bit with my intact 18 year old son (reading posts from CAC on occasion). His response to the whole topic of circ is along the lines of, "anybody who wants to cut off my foreskin had better be really tough, because they're going to get a fight". He's horrified that people cut them off at all, and doubly so that it's routinely done to defenceless children.

 

And, omg - of course you can't pull the foreskin all the way back. YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO PULL IT AT ALL!


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#74 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 12:29 PM
 
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Agreed! For me it's like saying women should get breast implants because men find them more attractive.  It's not natural and for circumcision to be a necessary pre-requisite for an attractive partner is just completely absurd.  
 

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Good. I'm glad to know that my sons won't get hooked up with a woman shallow enough to refuse to be with a man unless he's had amputative surgery. Personally, I've never been with an intact man, because, being of an "older" generation, I never had the chance. The number of intact North Amercian men in my age group is amazingly small. But, every single woman I've known who has been with both says that, all other things being roughly equal, sex with an intact man beats sex with a circ'd man, any day. This preference some women have for surgically altered genitalia is really...weird.

 

 


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#75 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 12:31 PM
 
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I'll preface this briefly with our decision: my husband has a son who is intact, and therefore we already made the decision to keep our baby (if he is a he) intact as well. Even though our decision is made, I think it's fair to acknowledge that I was a bit on the fence about this.

 

For one, there has been extensive study on HIV transmission rates among circumcised vs. uncircumcised men and that evidence is pretty worthwhile (for comprehensive look: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm). There is also further data that suggests that ALL STI/STD rates go down with circumcision. For me, that constitutes a medically motivated decision.

 

There is also a world of good reason not to do it. I just think it's a bit unfair to say that there is absolutely never any health-related reason a mother might opt for circumcision.



I agree!!!
Thats one of the MAIN reasons I did circ my son. Because of the STD/HIV rates! and decrease risk of an infection when a young one!

 

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#76 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 08:20 PM
 
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I agree!!!
Thats one of the MAIN reasons I did circ my son. Because of the STD/HIV rates! and decrease risk of an infection when a young one!

 



Until and unless doctors stop giving really, really, really bad advice about retracting the foreskin, any data on infections among intact infant males is completely useless. The best thing you can do for a newborn boy's penis, at least in America, isn't amputating the foreskin - it's keeping doctors the heck away from the baby. They can't seem to resist messing with infant penises. (This is based on a huge number of conversations I've had with American moms - I wish I thought they were making it up, but it appears that a significant percentage of your doctors really are that ignorant.)

 

However, I really don't know how to address either 1) this may (the evidence is still pretty iffy, imo - and if they won't wear a condom, none of it matters) reduce his risk of sexually transmitted disease, so I'll get it done, even though he's a newborn, or 2) this body part might get infected - let's cut it off. I mean...seriously...this makes no sense. (FWIW, I know quite a few intact males, including both my sons, and all of my nephews. No medical professional has ever tried to tear their foreskin free, and not one of them has ever had a hint of a problem with his penis!)


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#77 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 09:10 PM
 
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Ahhh how I miss the days when Mothering wouldn't host conversation in favor of cutting up babies. 

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#78 of 156 Old 11-25-2011, 10:10 PM
 
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Ahhh how I miss the days when Mothering wouldn't host conversation in favor of cutting up babies. 


 

Me too. The almost total lack of moderation around here is getting obnoxious. I just took a peek over at the homebirth board and yow! I used to lurk on the UC board and it's pretty much dead because of the trolls.

 

I miss the old MDC. Also Mothering. But it hasn't deteriorated enough that I'm willing to visit Babycenter.


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#79 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 05:40 AM
 
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Really sad to see this here and to know what MDC has become.

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#80 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 06:30 AM
 
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Maybe I just didn't spend enough time on Mothering in the old days - but I really don't understand the sentiment of wanting a message board that only allows discussion that favors your own point of view. What is the point of that? I am anti-circ and although some of the pro-circ points brought up on this thread are, in my opinion, ignorant and not at all convincing, I still appreciate the discussion. The fact is that somewhere around 50% of Amerian boys are still circumcised. Shouldn't we be encouraging calm. rational discussion of topics that we don't all agree on it? I have learned A LOT about a host of parenting topics from seeing discussions like this on message boards over the past 5 years since I was pregnant with my DD. I am not one to start flame wars and personal attacks on message boards and wish people wouldn't do that, but the active discussion and argument of important topics has helped me form more educated decisions about parenting and topics relating to young children (vaccinations, breastfeeding, car-seat safety, circing, discipline, and others). In my opinion, if Mothering had strict rules about what you had to believe in to be a member and certain topics were off limits, it would not only be very boring but also would give off a feeling of exclusivity that would prevent Moms who are open to "Natural Parenting" type ideas from coming to this type of place to gain knowledge.

 

It is nice to have a board geared toward natural parenting and in general, many of us share the same sorts of believes - and that is nice to be around, but I don't expect, need, or want to be part of a community where EVERYONE thinks exactly alike and agrees on every issue.

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#81 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 06:48 AM
 
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Maybe I just didn't spend enough time on Mothering in the old days - but I really don't understand the sentiment of wanting a message board that only allows discussion that favors your own point of view. What is the point of that? I am anti-circ and although some of the pro-circ points brought up on this thread are, in my opinion, ignorant and not at all convincing, I still appreciate the discussion. The fact is that somewhere around 50% of Amerian boys are still circumcised. Shouldn't we be encouraging calm. rational discussion of topics that we don't all agree on it? I have learned A LOT about a host of parenting topics from seeing discussions like this on message boards over the past 5 years since I was pregnant with my DD. I am not one to start flame wars and personal attacks on message boards and wish people wouldn't do that, but the active discussion and argument of important topics has helped me form more educated decisions about parenting and topics relating to young children (vaccinations, breastfeeding, car-seat safety, circing, discipline, and others). In my opinion, if Mothering had strict rules about what you had to believe in to be a member and certain topics were off limits, it would not only be very boring but also would give off a feeling of exclusivity that would prevent Moms who are open to "Natural Parenting" type ideas from coming to this type of place to gain knowledge.

 

It is nice to have a board geared toward natural parenting and in general, many of us share the same sorts of believes - and that is nice to be around, but I don't expect, need, or want to be part of a community where EVERYONE thinks exactly alike and agrees on every issue.



I don't think that it was "boring" at all I think that it was a safe place to come. I get people telling me that I'm WRONG all the time!!! MOTHERING and MDC was a place to come to vent. A place where moms and dads are on the same page.

 

I don't think that it is right that people are coming "here" just to fight a point of view. I feel like that is what is happening. Come get to know the people first. Then with RESPECT tell me your opion. Don't just pop in and let me have it. I'm not coming to you place and tell you that you are wrong. 

 

 

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#82 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 07:02 AM
 
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Nazsmum - I guess I just feel like there are a lot of different ways that people find to be a "Natural" mother. In my mind, there is no one specific formula for what makes a person a "natural" parent. I visited Mother occassionally before but I wasn't a super active member, so maybe it really was just amazing and I am totally off-base, I just feel like life if full of all different sorts of people and being able to discuss parenting topics without judgement is a great thing (in my opinion). I definitely don't support those flamed threads with name-calling and people-bashing, but I haven't really seen that at all on this particular board. To me, I just wonder how you find a community of parents who are all on the exact same page, because it seems like EVERYONE does something a little differently. The vibe I get when people talk about not beig allowed to discuss certain topics is one of exclusivity instead of nurturing and acceptance, which is something I always thought was part of natural parenting.
 

I should say, also, that if the title of the post was, "Anti-circ support" or "Why I am not circing" or something along those lines, I would agree with you. However, the title of the post was "... to circ or not to circ" which indicates (at least it does to me) before you even enter the thread that it is open to discussion on both sides.

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#83 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 07:58 AM
 
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Carly, Mothering used to be heavily moderated, in my opinion comically so. I once got a moderator warning for referring to myself as an idiot. That said, I preferred the old days to this. Mothering tried for a long time to be very different from the other parenting forums by setting standards. Notably, everyone had to be respectful, and discussions in support of CIO and circumcision were absolutely banned. All the DDCs had a link to the "case against circumcision" forum, but people talking about dealing with their child who was already circumcised were welcomed, and in my experience not flamed. Mothering was here as a support forum for attachment parenting, not necessarily "natural" parenting, which is why CIO was banned.

 

There is still PLENTY of room for diversity and disagreement. We have people here from all religious backgrounds, notably from hardcore conservative Christians to hyper-liberal feminist Pagans (like myself). I haven't found a Satanist on here yet, but I wouldn't be surprised. We have people who believe veganism is fundamental to being a decent person to those who practice Traditional foods, which is a very heavy meat based diets. Most people at Mothering breastfeed, or at least plan to breastfeed, but I've never seen anything explicitly against mothers who formula feed for whatever reason.

 

I'm a frequent commenter in another heavily moderated forum, and I definitely prefer it. By having an agreed upon level of discourse (or imposed by the owner, whatever) a lot more progress is made, discussions stay on topic, and a vision is realized. Shakesville is a wonderful place if you're a feminist but many make fun of it. A lot of feminists like talking about how religious people are fucking idiots and making fat jokes. That's not allowed at Shakesville and it's a much better place because of it.

 

I come to Mothering for the DDC because I really don't want to listen to people talking about elective inductions, how much they hate their stretch marks, or ridiculing me for homebirthing (or even VBACing in general!). If I have a sleep problem I come here because if I ask anywhere else on the internet I'll be told I should just let my baby CIO. Mothering is different, and without those guidelines we'd frankly be Babycenter.

 

Mothering and MDC have also had a HUGE influence on my parenting. I'm the child of abusive parents, and before we even started trying for DD I started lurking here a lot because I wanted to know a different way to parent my child than constant verbal abuse. Because of MDC's heavy moderation back in the day I'm a far better mother and I'd say a better person. If I had been over on Babycenter or Fitmama or LJ's parenting101 my influence would have been very different and I suspect my parenting would have as well. I needed ot see that there was another way to do this, and if MDC allowed discussions of CIO, spanking, and constant griping about how awful your child was, I would not be the mother I am today.

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#84 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 09:15 AM
 
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Ahhh how I miss the days when Mothering wouldn't host conversation in favor of cutting up babies. 

I agree. We used to always get moderation if anyone even hinted they'd favor baby cutting. So sad to see Mothering deteriorate this way.
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#85 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 09:37 AM
 
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There's a difference between respectful disagreement/discussion and wildly inaccurate peacocking.  I do think it's fine to have differing views, but this could be a place to discuss things from the framework of natural parenting.  Ultimately...whatever...it's just sad to see an essentially babycenter style discussion on mdc. 

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#86 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 09:44 AM
 
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I like the fact that moderation has loosened up. I don't like how far it's loosened up in some areas. There are posts in this thread that discuss the intact genitals of infant boys in insulting, demeaning terms. There's a post here where someone specifically touts the pain to the newborn as one of the benefits of the surgery. I don't like pro-circ discussion at all. I don't understand, even a little bit, why cosmetic (at best, prophylactic) surgery on a newborn infant is even legal. However, even within the context of being pro-circ, there are some posts/sentiments that are particularly offensive and obnoxious - and the assertion that the pain will make a man of him, or that intact penises are disgusting, are both in that category. I really miss having a place to go where people got where I was coming from on the whole "expose a baby to pain and risks of major surgery, while depriving him of any say in the condition of his own penis" issue.


Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

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#87 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 10:07 AM
 
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Jumping in here. DH and my DSS are both circ'd. Bio mom of DSS chose to circ. I am completely against circ and am having discussions with my DH about why/ educating him. We find out next Wednesday if the baby is a boy or girl. So while we don't know yet, DH and I have come to the agreement that we should not circ. DH was pretty amazed when he began researching circ and how cruel it was. He still has a hard time giving up the, "but if it's so bad, why did it happen to me?" But has has come leaps and bounds from being in support of circ to agreeing that it is not necessary to put our child through that pain.


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#88 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 11:24 AM
 
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cseky that's great.

 

as for the offending posts, I have reported them.  An open discussion about why or why not is one thing and can help people to understand the issues more. These are attacks by very probably trolls who are just here to stir things up, that is NOT okay.  I am glad the restrictions have loosened up from what they were, but this is not something that should continue. It's not an effort to get more information (the original post was) or understand the viewpoint of MDC, it's an attack.


Courtney and Cree, baby made 3, added one more then there were 4, sakes alive, then we had 5, another in the mix now we have 6!

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#89 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 01:56 PM
 
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I've reported the posts that violate the UA as well.

 

DH is circ'ed, my DD is not, nor will any of my children be.  IF I DID have a compelling medical reason to circ a boy (and I think these are very rare), I would try to wait until he was as old as possible so that 1) proper pain relief could be administered and 2) he would hopefully be potty trained and not sitting on an open wound in a dirty diaper.


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#90 of 156 Old 11-26-2011, 06:11 PM
 
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Sure, the less-than-10 post people were trolls, but the vitriol in the responses has honestly scared me about asking questions to get more information or disagreeing with the group. 

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