I can't beleive I'm going to share this, but.......
For those of you that have time on your hands, here is a link to my latest drama starter...
I'm hoping you ladies will show me my error.. Varify what a crazy, socially inept creep I am!
I'm just SOOOO CONFUSED!! I express myself in a very simular manner in real life, and I never have problems getting along with hardly anyone. Now all of a sudden I'm a villain online? I just feel this sense of "Oh my god, shes talking about ME!!!!! Why is she attacking ME!?!?"
I dont know.... I'm not into the whole social networking thing anyway.. I dont facefook, text message, watch TV, blog, etc etc so maybe I'm missing something? People just seem to take EVERYTHING I say soo personally...
Ooops!! Haha, all that ranting and I never posted the link! Here it is,
"So this is ALL so new to me, but I'm trying to soak up every bit of knowledge I can! When I first found out I was pregnant I immedietly started looking into what my 'options' are. It didnt take me long to decide that I am a healthy women, with a healthy body capable of managing a pregnancy so naturally a home birth with a skilled midwife was the way to go.
I've read all kinds of info on 'natural' childbirth, hospital births, etc etc and something dawned on me last night while listening to one of Ina May Gaskins podcasts. The word "natural childbirth" isn't really fitting when you are talking about still giving birth in a non-natural environment. It seems (rightfully so) that SO much of how the labor goes depends on the environment that trying to have a 'natural birth' in a hospital is easily stiffled..
AND to prevent any quarrels (still licking my wouds from the april DDC board, eek!) I just wanted you ladies to know that this post isnt directed at anyone in particular, I'm just curious from a general standpoint.
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what 'natural' should imply... What do you ladies think? For me, It's easy to see a natural birth at home, because of the plethora of options you have in your own environment, where I only think of being med free for a 'natural birth' in a hospital?"
Ouch! I totally understand what you were trying to say and think those women were far too defensive. There is no set definition that says natural means med free or intervention free or uc or homebirth or anything...it is an ambiguous term that can umbrella many births. I understood you to be musing about it and think they attacked you for thinking. (((hugs))) I tend to agree with you that the second one goes somewhere(be it hospital or birth center) with the intent to deliver near medical help that a level of naturalness is lost. This is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact it is the very thing most women are after. I have had med free hospital births and they still weren't what I would call natural. I was very aware of the door opening and closing, the indecent hospital gown not staying tied, the woman screaming in the room next to me. The need to ask before deviating from hospital protocol. On my fourth hospital birth I tried to be more natural and do what I needed to for labor...and had cps called on me. That is not what I consider having options, nor is it conducive to birthing naturally. Anyhow...I am sorry you got jumped on like that.
It sounds to me like there are a few women on there answering to simply twist your words. I found nothing offensive about anything you wrote. Maybe hard feeling lingering from previous encounters? Situations like that are why I only post on MDC and no other boards.
Mother to one Little Flower Child 3/08 and one little squirmy boy 4/12 , Wife to ,I am a Vegan Pagan. We , !
yeah, they were kind of overly defensive...
Personally, i think "natural" childbirth, is a fairly flexible term, Just like "natural" food. For some people, natural food includes anything that doesn't specifically have chemical additives, that's about it. for other people, "natural" food is raw and organic.... or a paleo diet... or... whatever, know what I mean? So "natural" an umbrella term, and underneath we have clearer (but still not rigid) terms, like "traditional diet" or "unassisted childbirth". There were things in each of my births (at home, three in water) that i would say were not as natural as I wanted, whether it was an awful yellow plastic cord clamp, or inducing with castor oil, or getting a shot of Methregin, or birthing at home in an urban neighborhood with a bunch of guys getting drunk next door. this time I am planning to go to a birth center, and after talking extensively to the midwife, I think it will be just as natural as all my other births.
PS just giving my experience, not attacking
Jess, mama to five boys
OMG thank you ladies sooooo much! I actually just caught myself breathing a huge sigh of relief! Normally I wouldnt be phased, but with all the extra hormones, not to mention I'm in a SMALL cabin, in the middle of Alaska, in the middle of winter, but myself.... Off grid... haha (I can hear the generator pumping away while I use the internet) I just tend to have WAY more time to question myself during 'cabin fever season.'
Wendy, I have the feeling you and I would totally 'click' if we met.. You just LOOK like somone I'd know, you know?!? Man I don't know how I'd react if a hospital tried to call CPS under those kind of circumstances... I would be soooo PEEVED! I've had previous crummy experiences with the hospital and an OBGYN over an ectopic pregnancy back in Jan. I just felt like my options were smooshed, and no one would listen to me. I had to CONVINCE THEM that I had a ruptured tube.. Then was blamed by the OBGYN after the surgery.. Ick!
Raven, you're right about having lingering hard feelings. There is ANOTHER thread right before that one about 'hot button subjects'' And being a dummy, I answered honestly... I think I ruffled feathers even worse with that one... I basically pissed people off from my first post on there. It's just weird because people don't react to me like this AT ALL in my everyday life. And really, I consider myself to be very well rounded for the most part. So, I dunno what gives?
Jess, I REALLY liked your analogy with food simply because it is something I can relate to soo much! Just last night a girlfriend and I went grocery shopping together just for the company. And for the 'average' standards, my friend is pretty health conscious and is a healthy eater. She cooks alot for herself, eats veggies, etc. We started in the produce section, then to bulk foods section, dairy and meat.. Then we started going up and down the aisls... Abut halfway through, she realized I hadent put anything in my cart for a while... I told her I was done shopping back in the meat dept (I grabbed a beef liver, yumm) and I was just along for the ride from there on out! It dawned on me that I had NEVER been down the isle we were in. There you go, two different styles of 'natural diets'
Oh and Jess, I totally understand what you mean about the birth center.. We are actually moving in a week to a bigger place with a 'birthing room' actually added on by the previous family.. So I'm SUPER lucky to be able to now have a home birth.. Origionally our current place being soooo small, I was going to birth at our local center....They also happen to be pretty Rockin... At first, I was sad that I couldnt get a chance to birth there. (the big luxurious 'spa' type rooms, queen size beds, hand made quilts, birting tubs, fountainds, the whole shebang) Plus I love and trust the environment immensly, and know that their ideals match my goals. THAT for me feels 'natural'
Whoa, there were a few women there just looking to be offended. Your original post sounded much more like a question than a judgement; like you were musing on the topic and wanted to know what others thought. Those few women wrongly took it as a personal attack at their birth experiences. Wow.
I completely understand where you were coming from. I think it is healthy to want to define terms and explore what that term means in a certain context. Perhaps their minds just went into attack mode because they didn't understand what you were saying. I would be pretty infuriated there. Sounds like a nest full of harpies to me. And this is coming from someone who literally CANNOT have a homebirth because of the risk of my placenta dying, but I am all about having the baby with my wonderful midwife in a hospital, not flat on my freaking back, and without an epidural if I can. Grrr..... Women can be so.... infuriating!
Artist wife to . Mom to DSS (3 yrs) and DD (04/12). (2/28/10).
wow, i'm really amazed at how snippy those women were! i don't think i would have been able to handle dealing with that!! yes, "natural" can have different meanings to different people and i think that was basically what you were asking. i think the term natural childbirth is almost like the turn autistic in a way. i think there can be a wide spectrum that can encompass the term. i had what i would consider a natural birth. yes it was in a hospital. where i live there are no birth centers, so there is not that choice and there is only one homebirth midwife that basically covers the entire south coast of oregon and my insurance does not cover homebirths. so i did what i could to have the most natural birth i could. my nurse was awesome and basically sat back and let things happen. i only saw the obgyn ( the on call one, my ob was out of town) twice, once when he got there to check on me and then when he came to help with the delivery. i labored in my own top, in the water and only got out when i couldn't handle the motion of the water any more. i chose to deliver DD on my back, because the way she was presenting (posterior with her left fist up by her right ear) made it too uncomfortable to be in any other position. i have had doula training, and i tried everything i could to not have her while on my back. but amazingly in my situation laying on my back was what felt best. we chose to delay cord cutting and the obgyn was completely fine with it and i also immediately started breast feeding. i didn't have any medications and there were no interventions or even talks of interventions. if i had delivered at the other hospital in my area (the one 5 minutes from my house compared to the 30 minutes we had to drive to get to where we ended up delivering), i think my definition of a natural birth may have been completely different! i felt like if i delivered there, i would have been strapped down, tied up, and force fed drugs and then probably would have ended up with a c-section. the place can definitely change the definition of a natural birth, but i think it also doesn't define it.
Erin , loving wife to Dave, mom to 3, Dec. '06, Oct. '08, DD Reagan Oct. 3, 2009
and DS Jack April 4,2012
Wow a few of them have serious issues! Nothing you said was inappropriate or judgmental IMO. Some people just can't tolerate any wisp of anything that makes them feel they could or maybe even should consider an alternative point of view!
If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.
Yeah, apparently! It's almost a joke to me now..My words are sooooo twisted at this point that there is noooo resemblance to what these ladies are talking about now... But I just kind of kept plodding along, making straigh tforward argument as to why I wasnt attacking anyone personally, and that I meant no harm etc Now they've resulted to insulting my inability to proof read. Pointed out EVERY misspelling and typo and to make fun of. The second the first person did that, it was like a chain reaction of women snickering and calling me a troll and such.. It all went down hill from there lol
I dont even know what the heck a troll is??? Maybe you ladies can inform me!!!
When I asked them one women did say " Girly you haven't even begun to see hatred. This is us playing with our new chew toy. Don't know what a troll is? Look in the mirror hun it won't be hard to spot one that way."
AND this one!
"Let me check my troll to English dictionary.
1) completely off the grid and just discovering teh internets in 2011= check
2) Horrendous grammatical and spelling errors while trying to come across as insulting and superior= check
3) No knowledge of what a troll is = check"
All because I'm the badguy somehow...
I assume you're ProudPregnancy? I've read the thread and a few others on that board, I believe they're reacting to your total output, and not just that thread. You pissed a lot of people off on the "hot button issue" thread, and I can see why. I gather you're new at the internet, especially if you don't know what trolling is. One possible definition is someone who joins a message board simply to push buttons and upset people. Judging from your posts here I think you're posting in good faith, but without much forethought. Frankly, I don't blame them for calling you a troll.
Since you seem to sincerely want opinions on where you went wrong, between your posts there and here I believe you have very blunt opinions on highly nuanced issues and you don't know how to express your opinions without coming off as very judgmental. Public school being a big one, diet another. Despite being a homeschooling homebirther I haven't waded into your other thread because I have no desire to deal with an unnuanced argument right now.
That response from "ChicaChels" was more about her, and less about what you wrote. It sounds like she has some healing to do about her birthing experiences. Let it go. :)
Distraction is not the same thing as play.
Be part of the diaper free revolution.
DS1, 6 years. DS2, 4 years. DS3, brand new! (April 2012)
I'm not an April Girl... but I saw the thread and checked it out. I then followed the link... figured out who you were and have decided you're just not a nice lady. You probably should have given everyone a background to all this. As in you insulted quite a few people then apparently expected them to be nice to you. Not cool.
I just read through some of your posts on the other site and I think the "planning the birth" thread is what really infuriated the ladies over there. And after reading the thread, I can't say that I blame them for being weary of you and your later posts/opinions.
When you first get on a forum about parenting/birth/ a person's extremely personal choices and behaviors, things can get heated if your first post(s) take people aback.
I actually lurked these boards on MDC for about a year before joining to see if this was A) A good fit for my beliefs of parenting and birth B) A great place for information and answers to any birthing and parenting questions C) A good community of women/men who wanted to share their experiences in a constructive setting. I found this to be true for me, so I joined.
With that being said, I would suggest that you get a 'feel' of the communities you are posting in before becoming a member. If you feel like you won't fit, don't join.
Artist wife to . Mom to DSS (3 yrs) and DD (04/12). (2/28/10).
Hmmn, well I certainly didnt mean to post the 'least inflammatory" one, it's just that everything went downhill soooo fast... (That's part of my problem, I can't keep up with responding to multiple people all at once, you know? When after a day I come back to 10 pissed off women and numerous private hate mail, it makes it hard to keep the conversation on the right track)
And no, I don't think that you can only have a 'natural' pregnancy out of a hospital. I was just questioning how much environmental factors effects labor/birth. I'm trying to get a better understanding in general, and certainly not trying to define anything for anyone.
Anyway, sorry if I started pissing people off here too! That is certainly NOT my intention.
I think it's time for me to just insert foot into mouth and keep my head to myself!!!
I agree with csescky, lurking for a while is good. sometimes it's hard to hold off jumping in when you think you have found a good fit. Certainly there have been times when I joined something only to quickly realize I was in the wrong place.
But we all want to be liked and accepted for who we are I do think sometimes it's hard to come across the right way online when you don't have real world contact with the other people. Yeah, people say stuff that comes across totally weird sometimes... not all of us are great writers and i know, for myself, sometimes I am tossing off my thoughts at the moment but then realize i have said something not quite how I meant it, and it could be taken really wrong. I am constantly writing, deleting, rewriting, and it still might not be right. Also, I think alot of people online are maybe not the best with social dynamics. IRL, I have good friends who "get" me, but it doesn't mean i haven't had to learn some social graces over the years, sometimes with difficulty. In a forum like this, we want to connect with others we hope we can relate to, but it is still an artificial environment (which there are plenty of IRL too) and yes, sometimes we really connect and know that we are really friends despite a lack of physical presence, but most of the time it's more like, in the real world, the people you say Hello to, chat for a few minutes, see at school meetings, the grocery store, whatever, but aren't the first ones you turn to. I just don't see the point in getting worked up over basically nothing. Now if someone does come in here with a chip on their shoulder for real that's one thing, but right now I think some people could stand to lighten up, and maybe try to be constructive instead of using putdowns. I mean, really, is that the way you parent? If not, than why does someone else younger and less experienced than you deserve it? Does calling names really make you the better person?
I am not interested in going to some other forum on some other sight just to have ammo to pick on someone here. Personally, I think that is trollish.
Jess, mama to five boys
Spidermonkey -- K, I just read through the 1st post and through some of your other posts on that page. I would like to make you feel better by stating that you are not alone. I don't think you said anything that was out of line. You stated your opinion as does everyone else. I also think that people do NOT read key words, like *women that don't educate themselves" -- and so on. If someone is reacting to that, I feel that it's most likely because they feel that perhaps they DID NOT educate themselves enough! Besides, that's not on this board anyways so I'm not really sure how it's relevant -- that and it was about hot button issues! The title alone says it all!
You and I are bread from the same je ne sais quoi.
Feel free to chat with me frankly at any time! I personally admire your ability to speak freely about things that matter to you and it seems to me that you did them in the right parts of the forum. People are often too busy fighting for PC comments that they don't even bother gathering the context of your words and become blinded by their emotional reactions.
I get a lot of flack for homeschooling my girls. I also get a lot of flack for being a home-birthing mama. I also get called crunchy a lot, and that is a weird term for me since I consider myself to be pretty suburban lol Even though I don't say anything about anyone else's choices and answer questions only when they are asked of me, I get accused or singled out because other parents often feel that if I choose differently for my children because I feel that my research has taught me what is best for my children, that it directly affects my opinion of their parenting choices -- which it does NOT. People have a VERY hard time separating those things.
I am the ONLY homeschool/homebirth mama in my family. It would never occur to me to think that my brothers or cousins are not good parents because they choose public school and elective scheduled c-sections and blindly swallow any pill prescribed to them without even reading the inserts. To each their own! Still, because I don't follow suit and defend my choices when they are questioned because I did so much research they automatically take that personally, as if my choice were an attack on their person. I agree, scope the boards your on to see what kind of people are there and how you may fit in before you even consider talking about what is considered controversial issues.
I have been MIA from all my pregnancy boards because I have had huge problems with my MIL this month (Who works for a public school and is huge on taking drugs for everything) and considers natural parenting, home-birth and home-school to be completely wrong and even considers it child abuse, but out of all the boards I'm on, this is my favorite one. The women here have such a nice level of diversity it's totally refreshing. My point is that I understand what you are going through. Over the years I have learned how to edit/monitor the way I say things and tread carefully, especially with pregnancy issues and pregnant women, all of our hormones are raging right now so we are all bound to come off like lunatics at one point or the other -- and when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, we all want the same thing. Healthy, happy, well educated and cared for children. We all have THE SAME goal and we all take different paths to get there.
Now I probably sound like a raving lunatic -- I have been under SO much stress this month it's not even funny so my filter is broken right now too lol
Lots of hugs.
#1 DD 6, #2DD 4 -- EDD 4/30/2012