tell me about soy isoflavones - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 18 Old 10-25-2008, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We're ttc #3 now, and I'm a previous clomid user. I have lp problems, severely low progesterone, and I need a clomid/progesterone combo to get pg and stay pg.

This time I'm looking into trying soy before we hop on the clomid wagon. I've tried vitex and other remedies to no avail last time. I'd love to hear you stories! Specifically those that compare the two, those that ovulate on their own, and those with short lps.

Thanks ladies!

Jill, mama to three fiery girlies and a sweet baby boy: Grace, 11.30.2005,  Ayla, 3.22.2008, Norah 9.5.09, Reed 8.19.11 & dfs Gage 2.29.12   angel1.gif x4
 

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#2 of 18 Old 10-25-2008, 06:37 PM
 
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Low progesterone can be caused by estrogen dominance and soy can actually make that worse. Have you done any reading about the different causes of low progesterone? I would read up on estrogen dominance and see if the symptoms sound familiar. Before you do ANY kind of soy therapy, please make sure are a good candidate for it. It can really do a number on you otherwise. If I were you I'd also read up on wild yam natural progesterone. It doesn't sound like you need MORE estrogen, but less!

Let us know what you learn.

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#3 of 18 Old 10-26-2008, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Will do. I'm curious though why using clomid was what got me pg both times? Doesn't it increase the estrogen production? I did still have low progesterone numbers while on clomid (at least this last time) I'm confused!

Jill, mama to three fiery girlies and a sweet baby boy: Grace, 11.30.2005,  Ayla, 3.22.2008, Norah 9.5.09, Reed 8.19.11 & dfs Gage 2.29.12   angel1.gif x4
 

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#4 of 18 Old 10-26-2008, 02:15 AM
 
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Using soy isoflavones for 5 days at the beginning of your cycle will increase your estrogen temporarily, and may trigger an LH surge. Like clomid, soy isoflavones make your body think it's low on estrogen and lead to a surge in response to that perceived deficiency. That can be good thing. This can be especially helpful if you would like to ovulate earlier than usual. If you are estrogen dominant to begin with, your monthly estrogen and LH peaks might not be strong enough relative to your normal estrogen levels. If clomid worked for you before, I would give soy a chance. I used soy isoflavones the month I got pregnant. I ovulate regularly, but I often had a bit of spotting toward the end of my 12-day LP. I took the soy isoflavones CD 2-6 and ovulated on CD 12 (usual was CD 14). It could've been coincidence, it could've been the soy...no way of knowing, really.

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#5 of 18 Old 10-26-2008, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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thanks puff. That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I have some symptoms that point to LUF (luteinizing unruptured follicle) and it makes sense that clomid would help it. I'll do some more research first though (gotta ovulate this cycle first...cd16 and counting)
btw, march babies rock. :

Jill, mama to three fiery girlies and a sweet baby boy: Grace, 11.30.2005,  Ayla, 3.22.2008, Norah 9.5.09, Reed 8.19.11 & dfs Gage 2.29.12   angel1.gif x4
 

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#6 of 18 Old 10-27-2008, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, another question, how many mg should I take?

Jill, mama to three fiery girlies and a sweet baby boy: Grace, 11.30.2005,  Ayla, 3.22.2008, Norah 9.5.09, Reed 8.19.11 & dfs Gage 2.29.12   angel1.gif x4
 

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#7 of 18 Old 11-12-2008, 05:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jillybeans View Post
Ok, another question, how many mg should I take?
The lowest therapeutic dosage I've read is 80 mg. As in all treatments, it's good to start low, then work your way up from there.

The cycle before last I did 80 mg of soy CD 1-5 and it didn't really do anything immediately for that cycle. Next cycle my 'O' shifted back 4 days to CD 19 (without taking it). I'm starting it today (CD 3) again at 80mg to hopefully move it back a few more days so I can have a shorter overall cycle. My LP also lengthened by 2 days, but I'm not sure if that's an effect of the soy isoflavones or from the prenatals I've been taking for 4 months now. Good luck!

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#8 of 18 Old 11-12-2008, 06:42 PM
 
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Dangers of Dietary Isoflavones At Levels Above Those Found In Traditional Diets
Cargill has received "self-determined" GRAS status for its AdvantaSoyTMClearTM isoflavone supplement to be used as an additive for beverages, nutrition bars, yoghurt, meal replacements and confections. The summaries of studies below provide ample proof of the dangers of adding phytoestrogens (isoflavones) to common foods. Deleterious effects include endocrine disruption, thyroid suppression, immune system suppresion, suppression of sperm production, DNA breakage and increased incidence of leukemia, breast cancer, colon cancer, infertility, growth problems and subtle changes in sexually dimorphic behaviors.

It has been argued that high levels of soy isoflavones such as genistein, daidzein and genistin in Asian diets protect the inhabitants of Japan and China from certain degenerative diseases, especially breast and prostate cancer. Actually, consumption of soy in traditional Asian diets is low. A 1975 report lists soyfoods as minor sources of protein in Japan and China.1 Major sources of protein listed were meat including organ meats, poultry, fish and eggs. Average isoflavone consumption in Asian diets ranges from 3-28 mg/day, as shown in the table below.
Studies indicate that isoflavone consumption at levels slightly exceeding those found in tradition diets results in thyroid suppression and endocrine disruption. The AdvantaSoyTMClearTM supplement would add 30-50 mg of isoflavones to a 100-gram serving of various common western foods, levels that exceed the amounts found in traditional diets and that are in the range of levels shown to cause problems, especially for sensitive individuals. Note that this level is also greater than the amount provided by 25 mg soy protein isolate, the amount determined by the FDA to warrant a health claim. It is not only possible but likely that many individuals will consume two or more servings of foods to which the Cargill isoflavones have been added, especially as these foods will be promoted with much advertising touting their health benefits. Two or more servings of such foods would provide 60-100 mg isoflavones per day, an amount that provides the estrogen equivalent of the contraceptive pill2 and one that clearly poses dangers after only a brief period of daily intake.
Isoflavones
China (1990 survey)3 3 mg/day
Japan (1996 survey)4 10 mg/day
Japan (1998 survey)5 25 mg/day
Japan (2000 survey)6 28 mg/day
In Japanese subjects receiving adequate iodine, causing thyroid suppression after 3months7 35 mg/day
In American women, causing hormonal changes after 1 month8 45 mg/day
In American women, causing changes presaging breast cancer after 14 days9 45 mg/day
FDA recommended amount10 24 mg/day
AdvantaSoyTMClearTM 30-50 mg/ 100 g serving

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#9 of 18 Old 11-12-2008, 09:01 PM
 
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I have a hard time believing that consuming a slightly higher amount (than what's in an eastern diet) of soy isoflavones could cause any damage...only 5 days of a cycle...for such a short while (few cycles)?

Momma to DD (12/04) hearts.gif and DS (11/09) hbac.gif.
I survived 16 mos! Ask me about breastfeeding a baby with posterior tongue tie, high palate, and weak oral motor skills- whew!

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#10 of 18 Old 11-12-2008, 09:10 PM
 
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Schwarma,

I'm inclined to agree with you. If one is concerned, they can also take care to monitor/limit their soy intake the rest of the time from sources besides the therapeutic doses used during those five days.

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and his rainbow1284.gif baby brother (7/2011)
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#11 of 18 Old 11-12-2008, 11:51 PM
 
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I took 100mg of soy CD3-7 this cycle and I ovulated on day 18 or 19. Cycle before that I did not ovulate and the cycle before that I ovulated on CD38. So a definite improvement!

Jesus-loving Doula/Birth Photographer Mama to Tor 4/2007, Zion 11/2009, Enoch 11/2011, and Zephyr due 12/13/2013

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#12 of 18 Old 11-13-2008, 01:39 AM
 
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While nursing my frist child I didn't ovulate for 16 months with long 42day cycles..then i tried soy isoflavones cycle day 1-5 at 160mg... and ovulated!! I tried it again the next month the same way and ovulated again on CD14. I also got pregnant that cycle!! I just had that soy baby 12 days ago.
I will be taking the soy again to get pregnant in a couple months...:
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#13 of 18 Old 03-02-2009, 06:34 PM
 
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bump!

Will soy help with anything else for us regular ovulaters?

Danielle, wife to John, mama to Valley9.24.07
expecting our miracle babies around 5.12.10- praying that baby B grows healthy and strong!
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#14 of 18 Old 03-02-2009, 06:37 PM
 
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bump!

Will soy help with anything else for us regular ovulaters?
It made me O late in my December cycle and messed up my CM. I wouldn't do Soy again unless I wan't Oing.

Momma to DD (12/04) hearts.gif and DS (11/09) hbac.gif.
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#15 of 18 Old 03-02-2009, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen View Post
It made me O late in my December cycle and messed up my CM. I wouldn't do Soy again unless I wan't Oing.
oh wow! ok, thanks!! I wasn't sure if it would produce a stronger ovulation even though i do ovulate regularly. I guess I wont' be taking it. TY!!

Danielle, wife to John, mama to Valley9.24.07
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#16 of 18 Old 03-02-2009, 06:52 PM
 
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oh wow! ok, thanks!! I wasn't sure if it would produce a stronger ovulation even though i do ovulate regularly. I guess I wont' be taking it. TY!!
It scared the poop outta me! Thankfully it went back to normal the next cycle, but it was nerveracking nonetheless!

Momma to DD (12/04) hearts.gif and DS (11/09) hbac.gif.
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#17 of 18 Old 03-02-2009, 07:56 PM
 
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oh wow! ok, thanks!! I wasn't sure if it would produce a stronger ovulation even though i do ovulate regularly. I guess I wont' be taking it. TY!!
Do the maca for a stronger O.

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#18 of 18 Old 03-27-2009, 05:22 PM
 
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So, I wanted to give my experience with soy... I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but I used it post miscarriage to bring on ovulation the following cycle as my prior LP had only been 7 days. I used it on days 2-5, chickened out and quit using it for the last of the 5 days. I did conceive that cycle, but lost the baby again. I do feel that this loss was a bit differenct than my first loss as I had no pregnancy symptoms as problems with my progesterone being low. I have no proof though if it was related to the soy- nor do I feel it was related, but it could be.

I know that I won't try it again knowing that it could have contributed to my loss. Of course, I am now under the care of an RE, so I will follow whatever protocol he feels will best suit me going forward. Oh, I did know of a girl a while back who did Soy on days 1-5 and conceived a set of healthy twins, after not having any success conceiving for over a year - so it definitely may help the same as clomid. I too has less CM with the Soy, similar to the way Clomid affects women. I would say if you were successful with Clomid, it probably wouldn't hurt to try the Soy for a month before moving onto a script.

Good Luck!!!
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